Discussion Current State of SV OU

[Chisa]

Before suspect testing volcarona, the SV OU metagame was in a rather awkward state where building was really difficult due the high amount of threats (Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Ogerpon, Kyurem, Volcarona), which were making things difficult when trying to build a NBM (No Bad Matchups) team. If you were an active metagame member these past months you would notice most teams you build are not good "in general" and this is due the aforementioned Pokemon that have a large amount of changable threatening sets. During this point in time, a thread was made with few options of what should be done. Honestly I have always thought the way to go was not to just ban a Pokemon because this wouldn't fix the actual issue since there would still be many threats left to handle and it would just cause a domino effect. I feel the current way of handling things is not appropiate to stabilize the metagame and I think we should stop listening to some of the playerbase opinions for once and make the council do moves by themselves and be applied without the need of a suspect test or a survey. I was thinking about what it could be best and I have come to a conclusion: Ban Booster Energy and possibly Tera Blast.

Banning Booster Energy would have a significant impact in Pokemon like Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant and Gouging Fire, since their most threatening sets would be wiped out and would not be as strong as they currently are; this would not mean they would completely be useless whatsoever, in fact, these Pokemon have more than one set that would yet still be useful without Booster Energy. I am aware that these changes could have an impact in lower tiers, but I sincerely do not think it would be as significant because Pokemon like Sandy Shocks and Iron Crown can still work in UU without the need of Booster Energy. Walking Wake, Iron Treads, Iron Boulder and Iron Hands are Pokemon that would get worsened by this; Walking Wake does not have a good set without Booster Energy and would only be "strong" in sun teams; Iron Treads could even drop to UU if this change were to be applied; Iron Boulder would probably face the same fate and Iron Hands perhaps could still be strong in UU (I talk about these last two from some ignorance since I have not played UU in this gen but I think I have watched enough games to get a grasp from it).

On Tera Blast; I think it's a bit different, I think only few of us are aware of the potential of this move and it's yet to be exploited enough to be considered broken or good, but if it does come to be banned, some Pokemon like Volcarona and Regieleki could find themselves dropping back to OU as they would not be as strong without said move and I even think it would give the tier so much dynamism.

Tera Blast is a move that enables you to beat threats you would not be able to normally, getting past counters for certain Pokemon like Dragonite, Iron Moth, Kyurem, Kingambit, Enamorus, Zapdos, Serperior, Raging Bolt, Heatran, Cinderace, Garganacl, Scizor and even others like Tera Blast Fairy Roaring Moon if Booster Energy were to be banned). As I stated this move has not been explored to the point of regarding a ban so I think it can be argued to its favor, even though it might have a bigger impact in low tiers just because of getting rid of it just so Volcarona and Regieleki can be OU.

I believe this is something we cannot ignore and I really am not a fan of certain opinions like suggesting dropping Pokemon like Solgaleo, Palafin, Annihilape, Baxcalibur or Chien-Pao as doing so would just make the metagame a worse disaster than it already is. The current system isn't working and when something is not working it's meant to be changed. I sincerely think this is the best route for the proper evolution of a healthy metagame without having to do multiple suspect tests or surveys that delay the stability of the tier. Possibly once this is applied, the highlight Pokemon in the radar in a future would be Kyurem, followed by Ogerpon and maybe Gliscor, but by then we would already have a better control for the current threats.

I know that this is not the best moment to apply changed because of the current ongoing tournaments like Smogon Tour and World Cup, but I don't think players would mind if these changes were to be applied in the meantime of the end of round 1, as I would even argue it would make things so much easier in the builder and in game as well. I won't be talking about terastallization because I don't think at this point in time it should be considered an option to ban, since it's been with us a year and a half already and most players are adapted to its mechanic and wouldn't make much sense to touch this now.

I implore you all to think this through and do something, understand where I'm coming from, sooner or later, we can't keep playing a metagame where slapping 5 booster mons and a lead can beat even the best of the players around with no possible counterplay.

 

[Finchinator]

I know that this is not the best moment to apply changed because of the current ongoing tournaments like Smogon Tour and World Cup, but I don't think players would mind if these changes were to be applied in the meantime of the end of round 1, as I would even argue it would make things so much easier in the builder and in game as well.

Applying any change without actual process or consensus a day before a major tournament begins is absolutely not happening. I’m happy for discussion to happen and people can use this thread, but we aren’t quickbanning Booster Energy or Tera Blast overnight.

The plan the council currently has is to conduct a tiering survey late in R1/at the end of R1 of WCoP, targeting people who played in the tournament. This (alongside discussions like this) can help guide the tier in the right direction. Basically it’s important to have an open mind, but you can’t expect a major ban to happen within one day without much prior support. These things take time, votes, discussion, etc.

I am aware that these changes could have an impact in lower tiers, but I sincerely do not think it would be as significant

As an aside, it is irrelevant what ripple effects any OU bans have on lower tiers. OU tiers for OU only, not taking into consideration lower metagames.

 

[zioziotrip]

I don’t agree with either proposed tiering action. Not only does it feel like these are widely sweeping bans that hit completely innocuous mons, the majority of booster mons are completely normal presences, but that these bans fail to address much of anything.

A Tera Blast ban has been brought up in PR and wasn’t received well. To reiterate, Tera Blast is nothing past a decent option for the vast majority of users. Mons that potentially push Tera Blast like Kingambit, Volcaorna, and Kyurem are edgecase mons that have received suspects for reasons not super connected to Tera Blast. Mons you can free from a Tera Blast ban are pretty much just Eleki and maybe Espathra, which if I’m being honest are nothing beyond niche fish options that would have very little impact on OU at best and be fishy nightmares at worst. Edge cases should just be handled appropriately, the move is very rarely harmful on the majority of mons and shouldn’t be cut to preserve mons that are already problematic.

I believe an Energy Booster ban would be incredibly detrimental to the tier. The most prevalent Booster mons close to banworthy are Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant. If Roaring Moon is broken we ban it, I don’t think it is personally. Valiant hasn’t been discussed for a ban in a literal year. Great Tusk, Iron Moth, and Iron Treads are benign mons that provide important speed control to the tier. The Scarf options outside of Gholdengo are really bad in a really fast tier and Speed booster mons aren’t problematic, we shouldn’t nuke them for the sins of a select few. Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt are maybe broken but not due to Booster. Their most problematic elements function perfectly fine without Booster. I think a Booster ban would be an incredible mistake.

The assertion that it’s impossible to make consistent teams in this meta is simply wrong. There have been multiple teams from SPL and OST that see persistent use with very little modification, several of these teams are not HO (garg unaclef double ghost, ting molt rai, grasspon garg deos, samuh gholden clef pult) and it is very easy to modify existing proven cores to make good teams if you don’t want to reinvent the wheel.

What this tier needs is more aggressive individual mon tiering. Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kyurem, Darkrai, and Raging Bolt have no place in this tier. They should be banned, we should not handicap other mons to preserve them. If it were me I would quickban these mons but expedited suspect tests are also acceptable.

We’re not going to reach a cohesive meta by choosing random SV elements out of a hat and banning them. This tier is unique for its bizarre mechanics and people are going to have to accept that. Banning elements that are positive for the majority of users is bad tiering.

 

[Niko]

Booster Energy is the strongest item in the tier, maybe after Boots. While the latter stays necessary in the tier because of serious lack of hazards control, BE is by far the worst element in this tier after Tera. It was a wrong design by GF in a first place, you give a group of Pokémon a super strong trait that only triggers at certain conditions and then you create a cheat Item that bypasses these conditions.

Every item that provides a boost similar to the BE one in this game usually has got a big drawback, Choice Scarf locks you into 1 move, Life Orb gets 1/10 of your HP for each hit. And then we have Booster Energy which not only does not give you those drawbacks but also provides additional pros (Knock Off nerf, Acrobatics power doubled, item no longer stealable by Trick, immunity to Poltergeist). If we want to find a drawback, switching out will remove the boost, but it's not a case the Pokémon that run the Item won't need to switch out most cases. They are fast and powerful sweepers that can setup and potentially end the game. And they are stackable, playing many BE users in the same team is one of the most effective offensive strategies in the tier.

Now, ignoring Roaring Moon which is a particular case for its great stats and the Acrobatics interaction, the problem mostly stands in Pokémon that boost Speed. Entering the battlefield with a +1 Speed boost and no move lock or other drawbacks is unprecedented in this game. The truth is that these Pokémon play a different Championship. Booster Energy is the definition of broken checks broken and the reason that many others Pokémon that don't belong to OU standards are there. The single Paradox looks fair because there are the others too. Deoxys-S looks fair because there are 4-5 threats that beat its crazy Speed tier. The Speed tiers and its balance is compromised once you give Pokémon with very good stats also a free Boost. Very fast Pokémon are usually designed with drawbacks because moving first is the biggest advantage in the game. These are just great Pokémon with cheated Speed. It is in front of these Pokémon that the majority of "defensive" Terastallizations happen. I feel like the single Paradox only looks fair in the eyes of some of you because there are the others too. What zioziotrip brought up about Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant looks dumb to me: these Pokémon would probably be ok without Booster Energy, and the same works for the others Paradox. They could still be playable without centralizing the metagame in such an unhealthy way, why ban them and not what makes them unbalanced?
I could prob go even more in depth about why to ban BE and I will do so in another post if necessary, but don't want to go too long so I'll just say I stand with the proposal of the ban, knowing that it's too late regardless to see a potential ban impacting the WCoP metagame. We are late for that.

About Tera Blast, it was already "suspected" with Volcarona so I don't think a ban will be discussed anytime soon.

Darkrai and Ogerpon-W have always been broken but some people refused to admit it even when it was obvious. A Kyurem suspect already happened and people voted to keep it in the tier, it's gonna stay that way. Idk if of all things i find Raging Bolt to be in Top 4 most broken threats.

I still think that this tier is unsaveable without banning Tera, but I think as time passes chances to get it banned quickly decreases, because people that hate the mechanic is slowly stopping from playing and caring about SV OU.

 

[zioziotrip]

What zioziotrip brought up about Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant looks dumb to me: these Pokémon would probably be ok without Booster Energy, and the same works for the others Paradox. They could still be playable without centralizing the metagame in such an unhealthy way, why ban them and not what makes them unbalanced?

If you have a cut on your arm, do you mend the wound or amputate the arm?

Booster is not an inherently busted item and it has drawbacks. Paradox mons without Booster have no ability and only get to utilize Booster once. They are incredibly susceptible to phasing, being forced out with status, being locked out play for the majority of the match, limited flexibility, the list goes on. To act like it’s a raw free stat boost is simply incorrect. Don’t get me wrong, it is a good item but it has practically exploitable limitations.

If you don’t like what SV is, that’s your prerogative. Making posts about how doomed the meta is because you don’t personally enjoy it isn’t helpful to fruitful discussion. We should be tiering with the cards we’re given instead of throwing our hands up that the deal is impossible to save.

 

[Niko]

If you have a cut on your arm, do you mend the wound or amputate the arm?

Booster is not an inherently busted item and it has drawbacks. Paradox mons without Booster have no ability and only get to utilize Booster once. They are incredibly susceptible to phasing, being forced out with status, being locked out play for the majority of the match, limited flexibility, the list goes on. To act like it’s a raw free stat boost is simply incorrect. Don’t get me wrong, it is a good item but it has practically exploitable limitations.

What we don't agree on is which one is the wound and which is the arm.

Booster IS an inherently busted item and if something the strict pool of Pokémon that can abuse it can somehow be a limit. I didn't forget to list the drawback of losing the boost if you switch out but that's comparable to getting hazed if you dragon dance, or Knocked Off if you have a Choiced item. Everything else you mentioned is not related to Booster Energy but to any existing Pokémon lol. And they still have a trait, with specific triggering conditions. What you really gotta look at is how it works practically in the games. The Speed tiers are indeed fucked, these Pokémon do indeed sweep a fuckton of games, they monopolize the offensive part of the tier together with the formerly Ubers (XD) and require specific check or force Tera to stop them. Especially when stacked.

If you don’t like what SV is, that’s your prerogative. Making posts about how doomed the meta is because you don’t personally enjoy it isn’t helpful to fruitful discussion. We should be tiering with the cards we’re given instead of throwing our hands up that the deal is impossible to save.

That's gotta be as dumb as you could get, for real. I made a long post explaining technically the Booster Energy pros and and why its interactions are unbalanced compared to the rest of the tier, then I also commented the other proposals in the thread, and you claim the post is unfruitful discussion because of 2 lines of personal opinions I added at the end? You fucking trolling or what mate?

Now if someone that is gonna consider the concrete in game scenarios wants to confute the actual content of what I wrote instead of deceiving the discussion into the poster rather than the post, I always appreciate some nerdy theorymon conversation.

 

[Alternator]

Booster Energy isn't traditionally broken, and it's not (currently) the reason that any mons are in Ubers, so the case to banish it from OU is just to reduce the offensive power level or on 'distorts the tier' grounds.

The former is a weak case right now: balance is thriving, the mons giving stall major headaches mostly aren't using booster energy, and while offense is unusually strong this gen, the tendency to view a balance-centric meta as preferable isn't policy, it's preference.

The latter is, in my opinion, unarguably true with regards to booster speed specifically, but that's only step one. Step two is asking whether the distortion is unhealthy, and whether it's enough to justify a ban. IMHO, not really? Using booster speed mons as speed control against other booster speed mons is (if you believe it's a problem) the definition of 'broken checks broken' but it's not the only option; there's some Choice Scarf users and a ton of priority also being used. Is it unhealthy? Ehhhhh.

 

[658Greninja]

Booster Energy feels like a scapegoat to the actual problems with the metagame. The only broken paradoxes didn’t even need BE to break everything (Bundle and Flutter) and the most prominent abusers are influential, but not breaking the tier.



RM is the most controversial Booster abuser but imo its not an issue. Common cores like Lando/Bolt, Lando/Dnite, Lando/Gambit, Gliscor/Gambit, Tinka/Ting, and whatnot can handle Roaring Moon without any issue. Physically frail, reliant on Tera, and vulnerable to priority and surprisingly weak without Booster. You might think it wouldn’t be with base 139 Attack, but the meta is filled with several physically defensive threats due to G-Fire’s short-lived reign of terror. Every archetype has a good response to RM and Moon’s base typing doesn’t give it many setup opportunities. Ghold can OHKO with Dgleam if it doesn’t Tera, Gking can Toxic or T-Wave, Samu does big damage, etc.



With Raging Bolt being Tera reliant, most Grounds opting to run speed for it, and being Encore weak, its self-explanatory why Raging Bolt dropped a peg after being no. 3 in usage earlier this weak. Raging Bolt itself is vulnerable to being worn down by hazards and chip, which makes playing around it easier in practice than on paper. Its still a great mon, but imo not top 10 these days. Booster doesn't break this.



Imo Valiant is still top 10 despite the prominence of Glowking and Primarina. Valiant is both dangerous cause you have no idea what set or move its running and versatile because of Encore. It helps teams handle like half the tier. Valiant is valuable to have in the tier and actually threatens a lot of those HO teams. Banning Booster would just make this worse for no reason as it’s beneficial for the tier’s health imo. Gen 4 Lucario/Infernape reimagined.



I’d argue BE G-Fire is the best set. Breaking Swipe sets are too slow and too weak to get a sweep going these days. Zama is one of the most common mons rn and easily Roars it out or 1v1s it unless Tera Ghost. +1 Blitz after Booster trucks alot of things and can run options like Dtail for Zama or Tera Fairy to resist Sucker while blasting through Tusk/Ting/Zama with Tera Blast, but Booster on G-Fire has inherent weaknesses such as the obvious 25% its losing from rocks, and without BE, its kinda weak as shit.



I don’t think anyone is complaining about Moth. It can sometimes snowball with Fiery Dance and there’s some cool tech it can run like Tera Ghost for Dnite or Tera Dark to resist Sucker and be immune to Future Sight Gking, but its nothing game breaking. Like G-Fire, it takes 25% switching into rocks, with the extra flaw of being physically frail.



Lunatic take if you think this is broken with Booster.



The rest of these aren’t uncompetitive or broken with Booster. Pretty self-explanatory.

There is the argument that BE polarizes speed tiers, but it doesn’t damage the health of the meta. Most scarfers are bad in this meta with or without BE around. Its just that the meta is both bulkier now and teams prefer other speed control options like Gambit/Rilla/Bolt/Dnite. The most relevant scarfers rn are Rai/Meow/Ghold who all have Trick, with the former two being able to outpace nearly the entire metagame.

Booster being a one-time boost is a big flaw that players have exploited. Either with Red Card Glimm, phazers like Ting-Lu, priority to bypass said speed boost or just naturally checking them defensively. Most of them become far less threatening, especially the Speed Boosters once their boost is worn off. Using Booster mons need careful decision making and proper positioning to get those sweeps going, cause they lose that opportunity otherwise, which I think is fine to have. Again, compare this to Waterpon clicking Cudgel without a thought cause that move is stupid, or the late Archaludon who can freely click buttons cause its a bulky, strong li’l shit.

As for Tera Blast, I’ve talked about on Discord how matchup fishy the tier feels. I’ve messed with Tera Flying Blast Encore Dnite and it just messes with a bunch of traditional Dnite checks. Though I don’t think it’s broken, just fishy. Tera Blast may not be the culprit, it might just be the amount of threats with polarizing matchups into certain archetypes (Wogre/Gliscor/Zama), but I think Tera Blast is something that should be discussed even if I don’t find it broken.

 

[Finchinator]

I don’t personally think Booster Energy needs a ban and I definitely don’t think it has a broken impact on the tier.

You can form whatever opinion you want as to if it’s detrimental to balance or enhancing your personal enjoyment of the tier, but no abusers of it in the current metagame are broken to me.

Roaring Moon has been humbled a bit recently with trends catering to it (Barb Clef, Avalanche Dozo, RH/Edge Lu, etc.) on top of the abundance of priority that’s common. It’s good for a KO and maybe exhausting Tera on both sides, which can be a valuable breaking tool with the right teammates, but it’s hardly overbearing.

Raging Bolt has warranted attention in ban/suspect talks, but it’s been contained well enough. I don’t think too many players feel it is a problem right now, let alone a priority to ban or minimize.

Nothing else that uses B.E is close to broken or in that discussion. Iron Moth is a great tool in the current metagame, but not too much. Gouging Fire was suspected and not even close to banned, but also it didn’t even primarily use B.E at this point. Iron Valiant is the epitome of a good offensive presence that doesn’t break the tier. Same goes for Great Tusk.

If you really want to go back and play this game, things like Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane are broken regardless of this item and that showed during the time they were allowed. They are moot to this discussion.

I don’t see the point in acting on Booster Energy. I’m not going to provide personal commentary on it being a net positive or net negative, but it’s just not broken and certainly not close to the threshold for an item ban, so it’s not on my personal radar. The OP does nothing to disrupt this logic and doesn’t even prove it as broken so much as personally annoying.

I do hope something comes of this discussion and more people chime in, but I don’t see the need for action right now.

 

[Chisa]

One month into world cup we have been noticing a big lack of people making their own teams and instead just stealing / reutilizing multiple teams and this is due nobody being able to feel safe when it comes to building new teams given how hard it is as I have previously stated in my post. You would much rather take somebody else's team and practice with it to feel good enough going into your game. I think we are not being conscious enough of what's happening with the current metagame (and spl's), HO is the playstyle that will get the most wins right now since every pokemon is able to beat fat and balances as they please. Volcarona's ban made Darkrai stronger than it was even though sleep was banned, Darkrai is one of the biggest threats right now due its speed control, great variety of movesets and adaptability to basically any team, with also having decent chances of lucking out through flinch, poison, freeze, thunder wave, etc. In these last 3 months there have been 3 suspect tests that did not really significantly impacted the metagame (Volcarona's ban was a bit unnecessary, there was stuff to touch before that) and I feel that was just wasted time and that's why we're going through this issue in World Cup. We must apply a solution that won't take much time and won't be as invasive for the ongoing and upcoming tournaments (OLT and SCL).

First option: Unban Volcarona and Regieleki, ban Booster Energy + Tera Blast. I keep saying this is the best way, many Pokemon would be balanced and none would be excessively broken. Kyurem would only be viable as Specs or mixed loaded dice, Ogerpon would still be strong of course, Darkrai could have a little less impact as it does right now, Gliscor would get stronger and Raging Bolt + Roaring Moon would lose a lot of viability since Raging Bolt could only run Specs or Boots which would be of use in other style of teams. I'm not saying that these won't keep being broken (Ogerpon, Darkrai, Kyurem), but that they could have a weaker impact as they do now. A month or so after these changes would get implemented there could be a survey (only for players that have played SV OU in WCOP, SPL and SCL with 3 wins or more or that have qualified for OLT, STour or OST Top 32) to know if any of the aforementioned Pokemon would need a suspect test or quickban.

This is the healthiest method since wasting time doing as many suspect tests is not a viable solution because it would just impact the upcoming tournaments in a negative way and we would still be seeing the same issue without an actual solution. I know some of you might not consider Booster Energy as broken because of its utility itself and that it's better to focus on the actual threats that abuse of this item like Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, Iron Valiant, but doing so for every Pokemon would end up being insanely invasive and we would never find a balance. About Tera Blast; I consider it necessary because it was one of the primary reasons behind Volcarona's and Regieleki's ban, and this way these two Pokemon could make their way back into the tier, maybe Regieleki wouldn't be as good but it has utility with its speed and screen setting, and also because there is a lot of cheese that abuse of this move (just watch wcop). There would be many new teams and ideas that haven't been exploited and without a doubt would make the metagame more dynamic than it is right now.

Second option: Unban Volcarona and Regieleki, ban Tera Blast and suspect test Booster Energy. This option is for people who don't consider BE as broken, but this item definitely needed to be looked at, believe it or not. Be Booster Energy banned or not, Volcarona coming back or not we would have another option.

Third option: Quickban Darkrai, Ogerpon, Kyurem, Gliscor, Roaring Moon or Raging Bolt. This is without a doubt a crazier one but the most efficient if you think Booster Energy and Tera Blast shouldn't be touched. A survey about a massive quick ban in this moment could be seriously the solution we are looking for, suspect testing every one of them is not a logically viable option.

Fourth option: Remove the council or replace them with more experienced people.

The idea of surveys are rather fine I feel, but it currently isn't really doing enough effect for the metagame and I think focusing more on the players that actually play the tier in teamtours like SPL, World Cup, SCL or individuals like OST, OLT and Stour should have priority.

I have also considered that banning Terastallization would solve the metagame, but I feel this would cause going back to when SV started and after a year and a half of activity since it came out we have gotten used to this mechanic, and if this was to be banned we would also need to retest certain pokemon and it'd just be more of a hassle.

Consider these options and don't think of something that isn't broken. SV OU right now is a problem if we don't solve it this tier would keep being a complete chaos for the future tournaments. Lots of players are aware of this, but would rather not offer changes because the council never supports them and end up making decisions that don't affect the core of the problem.

Be aware of the future.

 

[Finchinator]

So you post a thread about wanting Tera Blast and Booster Energy to be looked at and receive a thread filled with opposition…then you respond with four options that include two still focused on Booster Energy and Tera Blast, one on quickbanning Pokemon without community support, and one on overthrowing the entire council??? That is ridiculous.

Re-read the thread. There is clearly not enough support for any action on Booster Energy or Tera Blast. In fact, most posters think this would hurt the metagame.

As for your third option, you misunderstand the point of quickbans. They are never meant to be done because of fear a suspect test will not result in a ban. They are to be done in extreme cases with obvious bans. Our plan is to do a survey and follow it up with a suspect if something receives sufficient support. To me, I think Darkrai should be suspected and plan to respond accordingly. But calling for up to five potential quickbans is tone deaf.

think focusing more on the players that actually play the tier in teamtours like SPL, World Cup, SCL or individuals like OST, OLT and Stour should have priority.

Finally I want to address this. Me, vert, Star, xavgb, ima, Lily, and TPP all are on council and currently playing WCOP SV OU + play tours regularly. Ausma is managing WCOP. Ruft just came back from a leave, but is playing WCOP and active in the metagame. NJNP is the only member of a large council that isn’t currently playing SV OU tours and he hosts the largest discussion server + managed SPL, but he commented on Booster Energy previously and maintains this stance.

This is easily the most active and current playing council we have ever had. What the hell are you going on about?

 

[Chisa]

So you post a thread about wanting Tera Blast and Booster Energy to be looked at and receive a thread filled with opposition…then you respond with four options that include two still focused on Booster Energy and Tera Blast, one on quickbanning Pokemon without community support, and one on overthrowing the entire council??? That is ridiculous.

Re-read the thread. There is clearly not enough support for any action on Booster Energy or Tera Blast. In fact, most posters think this would hurt the metagame.

As for your third option, you misunderstand the point of quickbans. They are never meant to be done because of fear a suspect test will not result in a ban. They are to be done in extreme cases with obvious bans. Our plan is to do a survey and follow it up with a suspect if something receives sufficient support. To me, I think Darkrai should be suspected and plan to respond accordingly. But calling for up to five potential quickbans is tone deaf.

Finally I want to address this. Me, vert, Star, xavgb, ima, Lily, and TPP all are on council and currently playing WCOP SV OU + play tours regularly. Ausma is managing WCOP. Ruft just came back from a leave, but is playing WCOP and active in the metagame. NJNP is the only member of a large council that isn’t currently playing SV OU tours and he hosts the largest discussion server + managed SPL, but he commented on Booster Energy previously and maintains this stance.

This is easily the most active and current playing council we have ever had. What the hell are you going on about?

I think you still haven't realized the true goal of this post, zioziotrip's post and everyone elses talking about booster energy not being a problem aren't offering a true solution. My true goal is that you realize this tier isn't okay right now and has been like this for several months, if you're so proud of this being the best council in a long time why hasn't this been fixed? The current method is not good and hasn't changed anything since the last DLC came out, all the solutions you're offering don't make a significative change apart from taking too much time, waiting for a survey and then a suspect? 1 mon getting banned won't change the balance at all and is a waste of time. I don't care if you think my options are right or not, you need to realize that this needs serious changes apart from what has been done until this moment.

This generation isn't the same as the other ones when the ban of a Pokemon generated a significative change in the metagame, the powercreep in this gen is huge. Surveys shouldn't focus on everyone's opinion, most people answering abuse the current threats and win games due to not needing to think, and due to them having fun and winning they think this tier is okay and only say either meme stuff or nonsense.

Many players aren't brave enough to offer a change due to them knowing the council is not doing anything about it. Please realize that the current method doesn't work in this generation.

 

[Finchinator]

My true goal is that you realize this tier isn't okay right now and has been like this for several months, if you're so proud of this being the best council in a long time why hasn't this been fixed?

I don’t think the tier is as bad as you paint it, but I also have been very transparent about our plan: at the end of the first round of WCoP, we are going to have a survey and with that data + council discussion (already ongoing), we will proceed with suspects.

Personally, I think Darkrai should be suspected. I can understand why something like Kyurem, Wellspring, or Zama warrants discussion, too, but I’m not there. These and others are all being discussed among the council and will be included on surveys. But Booster Energy clearly isn’t a supported issue.

The tier doesn’t need five quickbans or an identity overhaul. We have shown we can be aggressive (see: more bans or suspects on average this generation than any prior) and we have been more transparent than ever, so we plan on continuing to be aggressive when appropriate and continuing to communicate with our playerbase, which was a big issue in prior generations.

The current method is not good and hasn't changed anything since the last DLC came out, all the solutions you're offering don't make a significative change apart from taking too much time, waiting for a survey and then a suspect? 1 mon getting banned won't change the balance at all and is a waste of time. I don't care if you think my options are right or not, you need to realize that this needs serious changes apart from what has been done until this moment.

I disagree, and if you expect any council to be able to overhaul a tier and ban 5+ Pokemon at once, then you misunderstand tiering. No matter who is on council, this type of behavior wouldn’t be allowed.

Surveys should not be the only thing deciding tiering; the council should make the final call (and we have been and will continue to), but suspects need to exist and bans should happen one at a time to gauge impact and let the metagame settle. Your proposals just don’t line up with how Smogon works with regards to banning many things at once all of a sudden. That’s not specific to me or the council, but just look at history, tiering framework, etc

Surveys shouldn't focus on everyone's opinion, most people answering abuse the current threats and win games due to not needing to think, and due to them having fun and winning they think this tier is okay and only say either meme stuff or nonsense.

We never focus on the general public. Only the qualified demographic. And even then, the final decision is up to the council. We have gone against the survey result a few times now, for example. You should look at the data and the facts before making claims like this.

 

[Finchinator]

At the end of the day, it’s impossible to make everyone happy with tiering, especially with such a variety of opinions. Our goal is to do the best we can given how we feel about the metagame with the help of the community. The community is important as they play the tier and I care a ton about how people feel; it’s not a coincidence that I spend dozens of hours and hundreds of posts interacting with players across the forums — it’s done by design. But at the end: the council makes decisions.

We have some amazing players who want few bans or even things like Volcarona to be unbanned like CTC, who even cited that he quite liked the SPL metagame. We have other people who are also great players like you who want a large overhaul of the tier. And then there’s a ton of people in between.

The point of surveys is to get everyone’s opinion so we have it at our disposal as a council. The qualified demographic gives us a snapshot of SPL/WCOP/top ladder players. That doesn’t mean we are always going to do X, Y, or Z if that’s what the slight majority says to do in the survey. Absolutely not — surveys are a guide, not the sole decider. The council, which is comprised of regular and strong players like Vert, Xavgb, Lily, TPP, Ima, etc., makes the final calls. And if you think this group doesn’t play the tier and care, then you’re simply incorrect.

We are at a point where it is never going to be possible to make everyone happy and I appreciate that you care enough to voice your frustrations; even if I disagree, I am glad you feel passionately enough to share how you feel. However, we must realize that certain things are unreasonable or unrealistic. A quickban of multiple Pokemon 6+ months into a metagame will never happen and that’s true for every tier, not just SV OU or this council.

 

[658Greninja]

Wanting to overthrow a whole council is wild.

I’ve voiced my opinions on this thread and in the discussion forums multiple times so I’ll keep this brief. Booster is a non-issue as none of the current abusers are broken with it (Moon and Bolt don’t need a suspect imo). Tera Blast has been brought up several times and we are seeing recent usage of Tera Blast abusers like Tera Flying Dnite, Tera Fairy G-Fire, and that one guy who brought Tera Fighting Pult. It’s worth noting, but nothing crazy atm. Most of the usage is to lure a specific threat like the many Tera Fairy/Flying Blasts for Zama or to give them STAB like Tera Ghost CB Pult. If we see more games where Tera Blast steals cheesy wins and ppl start fishing more with it, then we could revisit this.

Realistically, there is no outcome we could take that would satisfy everyone (the Tera suspect made that clear) and the playerbase has their issues with the tier but don’t know what the root of the problem is or what the solution is. I can’t speak for everyone, but I think there’s two options.



Suspect Ogerpon-W

This is the most controversial mon in the tier rn and imo a contributor to a lot of problems I have with the tier. It’s polarizing vs bulky structures lacking Amoonguss while being difficult to rkill thanks to Tera jacking its special bulk and the possibility of Trailblaze. It also amplifies the presence of other mons like Gholdengo who threatens or swaps into Wogre’s checks.

Or



Suspect Darkrai

I’m starting to come around to Darkrai as a potential suspect candidate, it’s half the reason Zama has skyrocketed in usage since its the only check that outspeeds and threatens it. People talk about how hard Kyurem is to check due to how versatile its 3rd and 4th slots are but Darkrai is that but faster and not weak to rocks. It’s got a billion different items it could be running like Boots, Sash, Lefties, Scarf, E-Belt, Dread Plate, Helmet, Specs, LO. You got Dpulse/Sludge/Ice Beam and a free 4th slot that lets you hit whatever else you want with its massive movepool. Wisp ruins Zama/Gambit, Focus Miss 2HKOs Garg and OHKOs Gambit, Knock + Spikes 6-0s Balance, Nasty Plot, Psyshock for Clodsire and Blissey. Checks to it are limited and can still backfire off of flinches, Sludge Bomb poisons, or that 4th move Darkrai techs.

Quickbans are only necessary if something considered so unanimously broken (Flutter Mane, Terapagos, Sneasler) that it just has to go, but the problematic threats rn aren’t at that level, and it wouldn’t make sense over a year into SV OU and half a year into DLC2.

 

[Eeveeto]

Short opinions about everything proposed.

Tera Blast: No.
Booster Energy: I would like this gone due to making some of the best Mons even better, but I understand that since its not making the majority of its users broken, in fact some of them are even PU Mons.

Regieleki Unban: No.
Volcarona Unban: No, we just banned it. And even without Tera Blast its still pretty strong.

Quickbans: Nothing deserves it at this point of the meta, except maybe Spikes, but lets be honest, those are never getting the axe.

Darkrai: Ok candidate for a Suspect, but if it ends up banned, maybe Sleep should be resuspected, since Darkrai was the main culprit of the Ban. Not an immediate Unban, though.
Waterpon: This is the most suitable Suspect target.
Kyurem: Put Rocks and apply offensive pressure, its a high risk, high reward Mon. Not broken.
Gliscor: Personally think either this or Gholdengo should go at some point. Maybe both. Whichever gets the most support will have mine to get things done. However, something to note is that Gliscor is likely becoming worse without Waterpon, as weird as it can sound. Waterpon getting banned will probably sky-rocket Alomomola usage, who doesn,t mind getting Knocked and Toxic'd that much. Alomomola switches into Gliscor, uses Flip Turn and something faster that threatens Gliscor can come in, Gliscor without Waterpon for me is worse, not better.
Roaring Moon: Match-up fishing Mon with 4 slots and item syndrome. Wouldn,t oppose a Suspect, but Waterpon, Darkrai and Raging Bolt are all better targets.
Raging Bolt: Fuck this Mon. However, if it goes, Gliscor becomes better. Also, Waterpon becomes better too. Something to note.

Council: I mean, they are quite slow but get things done eventually, overall approve their work. Much better than last generation.

 

[Tio Chico]

Some opinions, since we have an open thread.

Tera Blast will remain, and what was banned because of it should remain banned. We are moving slowly and going backwards is unacceptable.
Terastal: I hate this mechanic with all my heart. But let's be honest, anyone who doesn't want to play with it has already stopped or is stubborn enough to continue and accept it (like me). The "Never say never" speech to leave things potentially open no longer makes sense, after so long with this mechanic it would be better to make an official statement alleging the reasons such as lack of current support and time already spent with the mechanic, and fixing it her as a permanent non-target. It seems like a shot in the foot but it would open up perspectives on how we approach Pokémon today. I'm sure (intuitively) that some DnB voters in Kingambit did this hoping for some action in Tera.

Ogerpon-W: Limited to item, at the same time that it cannot be Tricked and has reduced damage when suffering Knock Off. It restricts Balance and Stall which forces you to play some underoptimized Grass-Type. With few variations in the moveset, it has enough to put pressure on entire teams and is a suspect and ban worthy target. Not to mention the ridiculous signature move.

Darkrai: 658Greninja covered very well and enough. Fast, excellent coverage, and flexible for items like few Pokémon can do.

Kyurem: There's no point in setting hazards and pressuring offensively if your opponent can do the same even with Webs. Before he dies Kyurem takes 2 or more with him. Kyurem is flexible with Specs, Physical DD, Mixed DD, Boots, NMI, and always has a chance to freeze something.

Zamazenta: Bulk, Speed, Damage. Its best-known variant with ID + BP already has enough alternatives to suffocate the opponent, such as Substitute, Rest and Roar. Versions not yet explored as much as Boots AoA or CB are equally good and I don't know if it's healthy for a single Pokémon to hold so many things in the metagame.

Kimgambit: This thing with Tera is ridiculous. It has been the most used Pokémon in the tier for months, rewarding guesswork.

Gholdengo: Taking a different path we have the unhealthy Gholdengo. No, new Defog won't be introduced via DLC if Gholdengo leaves, but Good As Gold is much more than that. Gholdengo is much more than Mega Sableye once was. A Pokémon that blocks Trick, Taunt, Defog, Skill Swap and still punishes with a wide offensive movepool and has solid recovery.

Booster Energy: I wanted this out, but we don't have enough support and I won't insist. I'm just saying that if some paradoxes don't stand out, it's because we can only use 6 Pokémon per team and there are better ones.

Raging Bolt: You know that in 99% of cases its moves will be Electric and Dragon, its Tera will be Fairy and even then we have problems with its oppressive bulk and SpA and decent Speed.

Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, and Gliscor can wait a few months.

Council: Things may be a little slow, and the fact that the metagame is unpleasant may make our perception of time lengthen, but it's the most active and transparent council I've ever seen (I've been playing since ORAS). We could say how stagnant the council was in generation 7 for comparative purposes, and then like what we have now.

 

[Finchinator]

Council: I mean, they are quite slow

Council: Things may be a little slow

Just out of sheer curiosity: can you guys elaborate on this and explain what you think can change/improve?

We are always open to feedback and this is an area that I am surprised to see come up. If you’re seeing something I’m missing or have suggestions that can help alleviate your concerns, I’d love to discuss ways to improve our process. This isn’t me calling either of you out at all and you have no obligation to respond, but I think dialogues on stuff like this can help me understand the concerns and wants of the community better anyway.

For some context and why I am a bit surprised: We have already had more quickbans than any prior generation and we are pacing to have more suspects than any other generation, too (twice as many as the average generation, in fact). This isn’t a perfect snapshot of the situation as naturally with Tera and power creep, we are bound to need more tiering action, but our calendar has frequently been gridlocked with repeated suspects and an influx of tiering action. Take a look at last fall or this past winter, when we had suspects in rapid succession.

Recently things have slowed down for sure, but timing is everything here: it didn’t make sense to rush anything after Volcarona’s ban with the metagame settling, no consensus internally or externally, and big events on the horizon like WCoP that usually help us draw conclusions. To me, the pacing seems appropriate and even aggressive at times earlier on this generation, but if you guys think more can be done or a different timeline should be employed, please let me know as I am very open to feedback + everything will be relayed back during council discussions.

 

[Tio Chico]

Just out of sheer curiosity: can you guys elaborate on this and explain what you think can change/improve?

The feeling that remains is that, although the council's action has actually increased, the launch of games has changed with DLC and this impacts users' perception. Something is out of rhythm, and this imbalance is also in the community with some suspects extremely divided. This is not just a council thing.
Reorganizing the tournament schedule would be crazy and possibly a serious mistake, rushing suspects has already proven to be ineffective, because the metagame adapts and the previously threat becomes "readable" like WW and GF.
But on the other hand, we already have a longer window of time since the last releases, that is, the stability time is longer and soon we will have the first shift tier of 3 months.
Maybe it's time to increase the pace of suspects just a little after the World Cup.
The release of new parts via DLC still seems like something that needs to be approached in a new way, perhaps thought out and applied later in generation X onwards. For now, the broken vs broken environment displeases users who want stability, both for a moderate powercreep and for fear of a possible domino effect that could happen.
Not everything is in the council. As I already mentioned, increasing the intensity of suspects after the WC could have an effect on a less unstable metagame since DLC release December/2023.
As for the users, I may be misinterpreted as a supporter of dictatorship, but a lot of useless conversations have been taking place on the forum since the beginning of the generation, things that would have been silenced in the previous generation and that perhaps should be silenced again. If users focused more on the metagame and less on theorymon or bs talk, perhaps things would evolve in partnership with the council.

 

[Finchinator]

As promised above, we have a new tiering survey to get the ball rolling on the future of our tiering of SV OU! Be sure to fill it out here!

We would especially appreciate if people playing in recent tournaments like WCoP or STour would take a brief moment to fill it out. Thanks and have a nice weekend everyone!

 

[Shaymin Sky]

- Firstly I don't think the tier is in a major crisis like it was before with Volcarona around. It's definitely more possible to build good teams into the general metagame although it's still way more difficult than it would be for the average modern gen, so it can definitely be improved upon.

- The council is doing a good job imo. The problem of "too many threats with none of them individually being broken", is an incredibly difficult situation for a tier. I think they are going about it the right way of getting a ban on 1 of either volcarona/kyurem/woger/moon and then waiting for info by the community for next course of action. We're now at that later stage of the plan where we are seeing Darkrai, Ogerpon-W, and Zamazenta being the main cause for concern around the problem of 'too many threats none that are individually broken'.

- Booster Energy realistically can't be banned through the standard tiering philosophy, I feel like there's really not much that can be done on that point because there's just too many bad Paradox Pokemon.

- Darkrai suspect was mentioned, tbh i'd really rather not ban it but the objective answer to me is that the tier would stabilize more with any offensive threat gone so a ban is warranted and i'd vote a ban on it. It sucks because pokemon like Darkrai, Woger, Moon, zama, kyurem don't feel that broken but when you account for all of the offensive threats in the tier they are just so difficult to manage regardless of the playstyle you use.

-If im gonna be real I think the play is to suspect test as many offensive threats as possible, if it falls within the range needed from a survey. Unfortounately I don't think theres a clear cut best pokemon to ban here, as I said none of them individually are broken its just as a collective those 5 mons + the rest of the offensive mons in the metagame are just too much. Something has to go regardless of how balanced it is as an individual. People will be upset and blame council for banning their fav not broken op but I mean I don't think we have a 2nd option, banning booster energy just isn't valid tiering wise. Personally I really like Darkrai and Zamazenta but I'd be willing to vote ban to help the tier out, its just people have to get past their favoritism and realize that they need to help further stabilize the tier.

- I think the general community attributes the tiers problems to specific pokemon when it's not the case. They will say "darkrai is broken but Kyurem isn't" and switch the pokemon around for whatever suits their personal opinions, when in actuality the problem isn't the individual pokemon. NONE of them deserved to be banned on an individual basis but i believe the ban reasonings are for the overall health of the metagame instead. Trust me I'd prefer Kyurem to be banned over Darkrai, but both of those pokemon are EQUAL in negative effect on the tier because they are the culprit of the same problem...too many threats to be handled in builder!

If we want meaningful progress in the tier, we have to get rid of our biases on certain pokemon. Nobody will all agree on any bans currently even in a suspect, because people cant decide which Pokemon they think is "more broken" when no pokemon is broken and that the issue is COMPLETELY different to what they are thinking in their heads. If a darkrai or woger or moon or zama etc suspect happens it's to alleviate the issue of too many potent offensive threats in the metagame, NOT because they are individually too broken in the tier or are uncompetitive. We realistically should vote ban on whatever Pokemon is suspect tested next. Not doing so because you want to keep for ex woger instead of zama is just silly tbh. Whatever happens happens.

EDIT: before people see this post and think I just want balance to be the best playstyle, the issue with the tier is that NO playstyle is consistent. Building a good team into the general metagame REGARDLESS OF PLAYSTYLE ranges from impossible to very difficult. This is NOT about "balance sucks" almost everything isn't even good rn, with offensive archetypes only being slightly better given they have access to more tools but they still lose to the same threats that everything else does lmfao.

 

[Finchinator]

I encourage people who feel strongly about the metagame to voice their opinion here so everyone can see, by the way. CTC posted here, Vert posted here, and I posted here.

Not too sure what will come next yet, but there are a lot of people with a lot of different opinions, so best to hear from as many people who are invested in the tier as possible.

 

[Alternator]

As for the users, I may be misinterpreted as a supporter of dictatorship, but a lot of useless conversations have been taking place on the forum since the beginning of the generation, things that would have been silenced in the previous generation and that perhaps should be silenced again. If users focused more on the metagame and less on theorymon or bs talk, perhaps things would evolve in partnership with the council.

Chicken and the egg - if the top players hadn't migrated off the forums, there would be more useful discussion. Without them, though, you'll see mostly low-ELO takes, which by definition aren't going to be as well informed.

Also, the forums are more accessible to people who are trying to learn, so a lot of the dumb questions are down to being new. More engagement from the skilled player base would help them learn, and maybe they'll grow into informed posters, too.

 

[Finchinator]

As promised above, we have a new tiering survey to get the ball rolling on the future of our tiering of SV OU! Be sure to fill it out here!

We would especially appreciate if people playing in recent tournaments like WCoP or STour would take a brief moment to fill it out. Thanks and have a nice weekend everyone!

It seems qualified* people are enjoying the metagame much more than before while also finding it more competitive. From the survey results here:

Obviously this is not all there is to it; the metagame is still a work-in-progress as the Pokemon results show some support for action on Pokemon like Darkrai, Kyurem, etc., but it seems like a lot of people are having a good time with our metagame as well. We hope to work to get it to a point where that is the case for even more players in the future though, so it is good discussions like this exist! The council plans to act (or hold off on acting) based off of their discussions rather than just survey data, which can be helpful (but is not the sole decider at all).

* qualified meaning people who played SV OU in WCoP or SPL, made STour playoffs, got reqs in the recent suspect test, or are currently top 250 on the ladder -- a large portion of these people are WCoP players this time around though, which makes sense given current timeline

 

[Karxrida]

Chicken and the egg - if the top players hadn't migrated off the forums, there would be more useful discussion. Without them, though, you'll see mostly low-ELO takes, which by definition aren't going to be as well informed.

Also, the forums are more accessible to people who are trying to learn, so a lot of the dumb questions are down to being new. More engagement from the skilled player base would help them learn, and maybe they'll grow into informed posters, too.

I know I'm replying to a user who is my senior, so this is for everyone else: I've been on this site for over a decade and the top players have never seemed to meaningfully interact with the forums (or at least the primary metagame discussion areas) on a consistent basis.

Like. They're not obligated to. People have lives. I'm fucking 30 now with a job. But it would definitely be nice if some showed up more.

At least Finch is infinitely more present than all the previous OU tier leaders combined lol. Bless his soul.