Metagame Cross Evolution

Have you done the tiering survey?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • I'll do it later

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .
Dropping my team here since I find the ce ladder too tilting and make too many misplays. Initially I had stopped playing ce altogether since balance was omega trash, but gholdengo being freed makes it much more viable and so built this team.

https://pokepast.es/aaf45d7f5e5603ea

Managed to peak at 1500 but I feel a better player can go much higher.

Its a simple hazard/status spam. Pretty simple to undestand but heres a few notes:
Wisp gholdengo is too strong. It is by far the move i click on i the most, and hex being the least used move, despite its evs. Often outspeeds gyara sweepers at +1 to wisp/curse them.
Had uturn instead of knock on primeape at first, but it didnt provide much value so i changed it.
Would love toxic on mandi and knock on gliscor but will have to give up bravebird and sr/eq on gliscor.
magneton-clefable, bulky unburden sweepers(mainly gliscor) and mudbray-cloyster are very annoying to deal with.

Also, agree with the above post regarding the nickname reveal clause. Currently theres too much set variety and brings a certain degree of uncompetetiveness imo.
 
The Solution: Add a nickname Reveal Clause at the start of the game.

If you understand what your opponent's pokemon do and they understand what your's do leads to a far more interesting mind game. It doesn't fully remove set versatility (e.g, maybe that Clodfish is just a wall but it might also be a curse unaware sweeper), but it does limit the amount of nonsense clownery the meta leads to.

If you want some sources for the uncounterability of set versatility go ask Imperator Romanum, my silly cheese teams have beaten him out of first multiple times because there simply isn't much to do once the gambit is revealed.

P.s., set visibility is important for defensive pokemon too, things like Munchpex only work because of surprise factor, just as much as some random unburden sweeper.
I completely agree with this post. At turn 11 in this game, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9crossevolution-2125619787 I lost my Rhydon Skeledirge to a Misdreavus Zoroark-Hisui. This was absolutely unpredictable and extremely unfair. A nickname reveal clause would greatly reduce random surprises and gimmicks that counter your team.
 
Clodsire was not on this survey

there was a spot on the survey where you could put "anything we didn't cover in our options here" though I really think that clodsire is one of the few things preventing the meta from devolving into rampant Offensive spam. I think a nickname reveal clause would stop a lot of the more offensively oriented clodsire sets (Clodfish for example, Curse Clodgar has been fairly common too), but I think the defensive clodsire sets are super important when everything can run shell smash/unburden swords dance/yadda yadda. Quagsire is not a great alternative and neither is Skeledirge in a dark dominated meta.
 
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IMG_20240522_160404.jpg


This guy is the true counter to Primeape(Samurott-H). He can switch into any move and Spin away (with unblockable Pixilate Rapid Spin).

Hyper Voice and Rapid Spin are mandatory and in the last 2 slots you can try Wish, Protect, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, Acid Spray, Knock Off, Flip Turn.
 
View attachment 634738

This guy is the true counter to Primeape(Samurott-H). He can switch into any move and Spin away (with unblockable Pixilate Rapid Spin).

Hyper Voice and Rapid Spin are mandatory and in the last 2 slots you can try Wish, Protect, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, Acid Spray, Knock Off, Flip Turn.
This does counter Primurott-Hisui, but does it serve any other function? Bisharp and Gligar evos can easily switch in and set up. Even with Pixispin, Gholdengo evos can just go back in to threaten Make It Rain, Sticky Web, or Nasty Plot.

Primurott-Hisui also does massive chip damage, so Wish, Protect, and Leftovers are a must, leaving only Rapid Spin and Hyper Voice as STAB moves.
252 Atk Sharpness Tera Dark Primeape Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Tentacool: 69-81 (22.6 - 26.6%) -- 29.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Tera Dark Primeape Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Tentacool: 57-68 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
 
252 Atk Sharpness Primeape Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacool: 90-106 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Primeape Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacool: 62-73 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

That's fine and dandy, but like

252 Atk Guts Gligar (Hariyama) Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacool: 546-644 (150 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even just neutral hits are hard for it, for example

252 Atk Stantler (Ceruledge) Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacool: 238-282 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

80/50 bulk doesn't leave a lot to be desired at the moment especially for something that's supposed to check physical attacks. At least Bergmite/Sylveon has even 95/100/100 bulk and real Recover (as opposed to wish). Ground type moves are all too abundant with Bisharp and Qwilfish-H running around to just HAVE a poison typing without having other strong things.

There unfortunately aren't very solid Fairy types in the meta right now, and there's a lack of spinners that don't get punished by Ghosts. Toedscruel + Gyarados is an OG Spinner but he doesn't work very well in the anti-Gligar meta (it DIES to Ice Type stuff). It's likely better to either rely on defoggers like Corv Crevos or to just run lots of boots.
 
Fairy Types in CE: A short analysis

THE FAIRY EVOLUTIONS

1) Sylveon
1716400036366.png

On paper, Sylveon looks great. Replacing primary typing with Fairy is great and Pixilate is also a great ability for an offensive oriented mon. Problem is...
  1. Most strong Stage 1 bases that would benefit from a donation of both special bulk and special attack are still neutral either to Knock Off or Fighting Coverage, the two things that Sylveon should check. For example, Girafarig hits 110/80/130 bulk (pretty good) and 155 SpA (great!), but Fairy/Psychic has a lot of unfortunate neutralities that otherwise make a great pokemon difficult to use (most notably, a neutrality to Knock Off and a weakness to Ghost type moves.) In addition, potentially strong Mono-Fairies (e.x, Munchlax Sylveon which would be a very specially bulky 175/55/150) suffer under the influence of Qwilfish-Hisui's Gunk Shot.
  2. Most Stage 1 evos that have a complementary secondary typing either don't want to be special attackers (Qwilfish-H, Gligar), or are not bulky enough to be useful as a fairy type at all (Glimmet, Croagunk). Even the few pokemon that are both bulky and are special attackers have other issues, such Sandygast/Sylveon, which exists only as a check to the since-banned Miraidon.
  3. Sylveon's movepool is limited and she wants to get utility from her pre-vo, something that's already fairly difficult, but further compounded by the two issues above.
all in all, Sylveon requires three difficult things and as such is very hard to fit onto a pokemon. The only Sylveon evos that have been at all useful have been Sandygast (which existed purely as a check to the banned Miraidon) and Bergmite (as one of the only unblockable rapid spins in the game.) Both sets are generally unusable, so we need to move on to the other type of Fairy evolution--secondary type modifiers.

2) Ninetales-Alola
1716402454890.png

Most of the time you see Ninetales-Alola, it's as an Aurora Veil setter for a hyper offense team. This is for good reason, Aurora Veil is busted! But what else does Ninetales-Alola offer us?
  1. 90th percentile for speed is really good. On fast bases it outspeeds most of the meta. 35/35/35 bulk is usable. Movepool is great (but no recovery)
  2. Fairy typing as a SECONDARY typing is much more generous for what can recieve Fairy typing while maintaining a resistance to both knock and fighting coverage (e.x, Gligar/Ninetales-A, Tentacool/Ninetales-A, even something like Voltorb/Ninetales-A is at least decent.
Problematically though, it doesn't offer enough of any one stat (or have a strong enough ability) to be STRONG in any one role, outside of setting Aurora Veil for your team. Gligar/Ninetales-A is 100/140/100 bulk, but doesn't have basically any attacking stat and has 0 recovery. Voltorb Ninetales-A is even worse off with 86 spa. Ninetales-A is pigeonholed into a fast support role, which means it'll struggle in killing roles that it should rightly check with it's typing.

3) Hatterene
1716406356472.png

Hatterene is a very questionable evolution. On the one hand, it's got a STRONG ability in Magic Bounce, and adding 50 to either attacking stat is great! On the other hand losing 20 speed sucks (unless you wanna do trickroom shenanigans), and +0/+30/+30 bulk is not good either. In addition, Hatterene's movepool is fairly limited (no recovery, only setup is calm mind, Nuzzle is good but limited utility/coverage outside of that). Hatterene also suffered from the same issues as Ninetales-Alola--Hatterene can't focus into any one role well. Between losing speed, having poor bulk, and have a poor movepool for sweeping, Hatterene creevos rely very heavily on the strength of their pre-vos... and the strongest of those are neutral to knock and/or fighting coverage (Porygon 2, Sliggoo-Hisui, Chansey).

We could also cover the...

4) Fairy Pre-Vos'
I'm not really gonna touch on this much because there's really hardly anything of note here. Here's a simple check for you to see if your Fairy Crevo is worthwhile. Is it bulkier and/or more threatening than Arceus Fairy? Does it have anything of note that it fills that an Arceus Fairy couldn't? For example...
:flabebe: + :milotic:
1716407494789.png

This pokemon is good (on paper). It's slow (which can be helpful with flip turn sets), hits hard, has it's choice of Marvel Scale (to pump it's otherwise paltry defense) or Competitive (to punish webs/intimidate). It's not great, but it does pass the Arceus Test (hits harder, has a functional ability, and can pivot)

How about something else? Well, I just showed you the best Fairy Prevo, because (come take a look at this)

(stage 1 fairies)
1716407919667.png

1716407938219.png


(stage 2 fairies)
1716407965431.png

1716407980963.png

There is not a single GOOD *pre-existing" fairy type in the meta. It's also incredibly difficult to engineer a fairy type with our limited evos. What's the solution?

--free tera-- (for legal reasons this is a joke)

TL;DR, fairies are marred by available pre-vo/cre-vo options either due to neutrality to dark or lack of stats. Most can't compare with Arceus Fairy which is really weak for CE standards.
 
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Excellent work!
We could also mention :Weezing-Galar: that gives Fairy as a secondary type and cool ability with Neutralizing Gas, yet it doesn't have any recovery and upgrade every base stats with +25 (which is quite bad honestly, more HP and Def would be so much better).
Bring back Spritzee!
 
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Ground, Dark, and Ghost.

These are the three most common types in the meta and should be accounted for. For example, taking Bronzor, one of the more common sets I saw for it was Bronzor/Gyarados (this was back in pre-DLC, it's probably very bad now). It removed the ground type, ghost type, and dark type weakness and gave it good bulk and strong enough attack stat to act as a more offensive stealth rock variant (plus it could run Gyro Ball and hit fairly hard.)

It's probably pretty bad now. If I needed a steel type, I'd likely either run Bisharp (Tsareena, Tinkaton, and Krookodile would be good options for that to maintain the Dark/Steel typing), Magneton (Clefable is the best set (MGuard LOrb Steel Beam hits hard) though I've seen some decent Hydreigon sets as well), or if you want something more defensively strong, a Corviknight Crevo (some favorites would be Dusclops, Dipplin, and Shelgon (Steel/Ghost with great defenses, Steel/Grass resists almost everything and fire types are rare, and Steel/Dragon is a phenomenal typing.)
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9crossevolution-2129708609 it seems like Bronzor with Clodsire can be a good wall (ignoring Garganacl Dusclops of course). I never see it around though
Elaborating more on this set, I think its a great set up wall. Most dark and ground moves run these days are physical, so after one or two iron defenses I would imagine they can be outhealed, meaning if you switch into an attacker that can't deal with bronzor and set up an iron defense, you can beat those common dark and ground types. Ghost is more of a problem, but the main attacker with ghost is probably ceruledge evos, which also have bitter blade so that doesn't account for much. Body press and toxic then allow you to deal with other walls and hit switch-ins (particularly dark types like bisharp). It's also a great wall once you eliminate counter on the team (like my rhyhorn in this replay). So while its not the perfect wall, it certainly is strong and saying "gligar outclasses it" means nothing because I can run anything else on gligar and use both just fine, especially when gligar outclasses half the meta.
 
So while its not the perfect wall, it certainly is strong and saying "gligar outclasses it" means nothing because I can run anything else on gligar and use both just fine, especially when gligar outclasses half the meta.

It's not that that set is unusable, but anytime you are using weaker mons with niches you definitely need to build around said pokemon. For example, getting a solid answer to Gligar-Milotic, or setup Tinkasharp, or even just strong special attackers like Specs Electabuzz-Viv would be essential in supporting this Mon.

I'd also question whether or not it's outperformed by Clodfish.
 
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 422-500 (90.1 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Stantler Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 408-484 (87.1 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sharpness Tera Dark Primeape Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 236-282 (50.4 - 60.2%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magmar (Vivillon) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzor: 282-332 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzor: 205-243 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Vullaby (Gyarados) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 236-282 (50.4 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Walled by Clodsire Qwilfish-Hisui
Walled by Koffing
Countered by Dusclops Garganacl (which has more physical bulk too)

The one niche it has for a mixed wall is that it can wall Girafarig Toxtricity.
 
the point of the set is to set up on a mon that cant OHKO it, so ideally you get a +2 automatically and then maybe another if bad play by the opponent, which isnt impossible, so that immediately makes it possible to beat both bisharp and primeape due to press, ceru evos are a good counter ofc though, as are most special wallbreaker
 
I made a team and it works pretty well! I've been number one on the ladder for quite some time now, so figured I would share it.

1716643295670.png

:slowpoke: :gligar: :chansey: :vullaby: :dusclops: :rhydon:

I began experimenting with stall after Gholdengo was unbanned, which is why this team is named "Gholdengo stall" in my teambuilder without using Gholdengo. However, this proved to be difficult as 1) Gholdengo EVO doesn't grant a lot of bulk, and 2) There's a lot of dark types running around. However, I found that the slowpoke, gligar, chansey and vullaby core could fairly consistently wall most things offensive threats and wallbreakers. These four were pretty set in stone, while the remaing two slots took a while longer to fill. Rhydon and Dusclops both improve my matchup versus opposing stall and stallbreakers significantly. The final iteration of the team has been consistently very successful and able to handle most archtypes well.

Roles and teambuilding process:

As stated, four pokemon were locked in from the beginning. However, I did experiment with different sets and stat spreads.

:Chansey: + :Clefable: is essential for most stall teams. With unaware it's a reliable hard-counter to most special attackers in the current metagame. Initially I CE'd it with :skeledirge: for the typing and access to will o wisp. However, Clefable has a few notabale advantages over Skeledirge. First of all it's not weak to dark, a common offensive type in the metagame. Second, Clefable gives you 25/25+ defences while Skeledirge only gives 22/17+. The most important benefit is that Clefable gives you access to wish, which is invaluable for keeping the team healthy. Since Chansey is only meant to stay in on special attackers I went for max HP and max SP.def. With HDB you take very little damage switching in and can use wish to pivot around. Wish also has 16 PP, which is handy if your teammates run out recover PP. Chansey handles most variants of :Electabuzz: :Magneton: :Magmar: :frogadier: (rain) :girafarig: and other :Vivillon: & :Gholdengo: cross evolutions.

:Gligar: + :Milotic: was also a no brainer. It's one of two knock off absorbers on my team, which is absolutely crucial as I don't have any hazard removers. When status it has 484/703/306 raw defences with max HP & defence. Evenmax attack adamant :Mudbray: :Cloyster: 5 hits icicle spear doesn't OHKO after rocks + burn. This is also the best counter to opposing offensive Gligars, which it's able to 1v1 with scald. I won't dwell to much on why Gligar works, I'm sure you're familiar with it if you're reading this. As for the movepool I considered running knock off, but the benefits don't outweight the opportunity cost. I also have knock off on Vullaby and Dusclops, which is usually enough. Gligar gets so many switch ins that the opportunity to lay multiple layers of spikes was prefered over stealth rock.

:Slowpoke: + :Gyarados: slowpoke is my wincon. Most games end with slowpoke sweeping after it gets of a curse + amnesia. I usually wait until I've scouted my opponents team out for anything that can stop it, such as salt cure, toxic, encore and trick. With 165/89/120 defences and intimidate this thing gets plenty of opportunities to switch in and set up. Once people see amnesia they will usually switch right into their electric type, if they have one. However, neither :Electabuzz: or :Magneton: can reliably 2HKO at +4 sp.def, while liquidation is a guranteed 2HKO. Liquidation does between 81-96% to :Electabuzz: :vivillon: so it needs to be careful switching in aswell. Slowpoke is a pretty good teammate to :Dusclops: and :Gligar: too, as they can switch into even more after an intimidate. I've considered running more sp.def, but the extra physical check was more useful. Dragon tail and Thunder Wave are also options over amnesia, but neither option is particularly useful compared to amnesia. Bulky setup sweepers aren't all that threatning against :vullaby:, :chansey: and salt cure :rhydon:.

:Vullaby: + :clodsire: this was going on the team no matter what. At first I CE'd it with Gyarados, but another unaware user was too important. With 145/90/140 defences and great defensive typing this things is able to counter most of the dark types running around. Foul play is great for handling threats like :bisharp:, :necrozma-dusk-mane:, :stantler:, :primeape: + :samurott-hisui:, :qwilfish-hisui: + :ceruledge: and much more. Toxic is always a nice option to have when burns don't cut it. Knock off is also a great utility move and significantly improves my match up versus opposing stall and HDB cores. It's very important to assess whether you need to keep Vullaby healthy at all times. I usually never sack this until I've seen my opponents entire team, as you never know if their last mon has :houndstone: last respect. Keeping this healthy is extremely important versus :cetoddle: :hariyama:, if you live the icicle spear foul play should OHKO.

:Dusclops: + :reuniclus: most expect this to be regenerator, but magic guard Dusclops is absolutely necessary. First of all it gives me a switch in to salt cure from :garganacl: cross evolutions, which can be extremely annoying to deal with. Opposing :dusclop: gargancl: with salt cure + curse is a nightmare deal with if I didn't have Dusclops. Second, it gives me another switch in to knock off. Now, you might correctly point out that Dusclops is weak to knock off. However, with 85/155 defences it's able to live any unboosted knock off, even from :bisharp: :tsareena: and burn it. Finally, Dusclops is able to comfortably prevent my opponent from spinning away my hazards. As you have more hazard PP than they have defog or mortal spin PP, you will eventually win the hazard war. Since this thing usually absorbs a knock off throughout the game I decided to give it sticky barb. With knock off you can remove their item and if you time it right give them the sticky barb. This is great versus opposing stall teams.

:Rhydon: + :Garganacl: I initially ran this with :skeledirge: to better handle :Cranidos: :breloom:, but it was extremely underwhelming. Three unaware users really wasn't necessary, and there's few things it can handle that the rest of my team couldn't on its own. It rarely finds opportunities to switch in and get up rocks. However, Rhydon was still a good base for a cross evo, even if Skeledirge didn't fit. I need a stealth rocker and eventually I landed on a :garganacl: cross evo. The quad weakness to grass/water really isn't that difficult to handle, as both are quite rare as coverage moves. In comparison to :skeledirge: you trade a weakness to ghost/dark for steel/fighting/ground, while gaining a resistance to flying and fire. In the current metagame this was an easy decision. Rhydon functions as a status absorber and stealth rocker. Salt cure is excellent for making progress and stopping setup sweepers.


Threats:
:Cranidos: :Breloom: can break through my entire team depending on the set. I usually have to sack atleast one pokemon to take it down or to status it.

:Mudbray: :cloyster: if my team has been weakened this thing can sweep, I have to keep :slowpoke: healthy at all times to check this.

:primeape: :samurott-hisui: banded can break through my team if :slowpoke: and :gligar: are weakened.

:Cetoddle: :Hariyama: I can't stop this from getting of a belly drum, and if it has the right moves and speed investment then it 6-0s my entire team right of the bat.

:Houndstone: & Last respect can be a huge problem to deal with if Vullaby is weakened.

:Electabuzz: + :Palafin:. Pivot cores can be quite frustrating to deal with if they have reliable hazard control. Electabuzz forces me to switch into Chansey, and there's nothing preventing them from volt switching until my team is sufficiently weakened for a wallbreaker. A good regenerator user could be helpful here, but I couldn't fit it in. Gligar can't reliably switch into hurricanes. I lost to Zendattas' rain team because of this, which you can watch in the replays.

 
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Fairy Types in CE: A short analysis

THE FAIRY EVOLUTIONS

1) Sylveon
View attachment 634771
On paper, Sylveon looks great. Replacing primary typing with Fairy is great and Pixilate is also a great ability for an offensive oriented mon. Problem is...
  1. Most strong Stage 1 bases that would benefit from a donation of both special bulk and special attack are still neutral either to Knock Off or Fighting Coverage, the two things that Sylveon should check. For example, Girafarig hits 110/80/130 bulk (pretty good) and 155 SpA (great!), but Fairy/Psychic has a lot of unfortunate neutralities that otherwise make a great pokemon difficult to use (most notably, a neutrality to Knock Off and a weakness to Ghost type moves.) In addition, potentially strong Mono-Fairies (e.x, Munchlax Sylveon which would be a very specially bulky 175/55/150) suffer under the influence of Qwilfish-Hisui's Gunk Shot.
  2. Most Stage 1 evos that have a complementary secondary typing either don't want to be special attackers (Qwilfish-H, Gligar), or are not bulky enough to be useful as a fairy type at all (Glimmet, Croagunk). Even the few pokemon that are both bulky and are special attackers have other issues, such Sandygast/Sylveon, which exists only as a check to the since-banned Miraidon.
  3. Sylveon's movepool is limited and she wants to get utility from her pre-vo, something that's already fairly difficult, but further compounded by the two issues above.
all in all, Sylveon requires three difficult things and as such is very hard to fit onto a pokemon. The only Sylveon evos that have been at all useful have been Sandygast (which existed purely as a check to the banned Miraidon) and Bergmite (as one of the only unblockable rapid spins in the game.) Both sets are generally unusable, so we need to move on to the other type of Fairy evolution--secondary type modifiers.

1716704417625.png


These guys ain't so different

:Girafarig: -> :Stantler: is just
+3 +15 -3 -5 +0 +0
and no psychic

I get it that Stantler,Sylveon is still not particularly amazing, but it's got a minor stats tradeoff from Giraf all to not have Psychic type. And should not be overlooked as an alternative.

On the movepool department it's not so far away from Giraf, the relevant stuff is no Nasty Plot, but gets Earth Power. So that's something.
 
It took me a while to get around to writing my RMT, so I kept it saved my in my drafts which means I hadn't been able to post about anything else in the mean time. I'd like to remidy that by starting of a new point of discussion.

First, let me say that I've really enjoyed reading all of your posts, especially the #400 by Imw0rstadP0keM0n. I'm glad that both the ladder and forums have been so active. I hope as many as you chime in with suggestions.

I'd like to start a discussion on the Viability rankings, I'm not going to bothering making a complete list so I hope people chime in with their own suggestions.

S+ rank

:Gligar: (Gyarados, Milotic, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Chansey, Hariyama)

S

:Qwilfish-Hisui: (Ceruledge, Clodsire, Hariyama, Hitmontop)

A+

:Bisharp: (Tsareena, Lycanroc-Dusk, Hatterene, Blaziken, Tinkaton, Conkeldurr)
:Electabuzz: (Vivillon, Clefable)
:Primeape: (Samurott-Hisui)
:Vullaby: (Clodsire, Chansey, Gyarados, Avalugg)
:Magneton: (Clefable, Hydreigon)
:Girafarig: (Toxtricity, Noivern, Gholdengo)

A


:Stantler: (Ceruledge, Hariyama)
:Chansey: (Skeledirge, Clefable, Hatterene)
:Slowpoke: (Gyarados, Milotic)
:Mudbray: (Cloyster)
:Frogadier: (Vivillon)
:Munchlax: (Clodsire, Toxapex, Milotic)
:Misdreavus: (Gholdengo, Milotic, Ninetales-A, etc.)
:Dusclops: (Garganacl, Reuniclus, Corviknight)

A-

:Magmar: (Vivillon, Cinderace, Meowscarada)
:Dunsparce: (Toxapex, Slowking-Galar, Pelipper)
:Dipplin: (Corviknight)
:Rhydon: (Garganacl, Hatterene, Skeledirge)
:kubfu: (Ceruledge, Gyarados)

B+


:Cranidos: (Breloom, Hitmonlee, Lycanroc-Dusk)
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane:
:Arceus-fairy:
:Koraidon:
:Litleo: (Sunflora)
:piloswine: (Tsareena)
:porygon2: (Milotic, Skeledirge, Kommo-o, Clefable) Feel free to suggest roles, I haven't used it a lot.

B

:Cetoddle: (Breloom, Hariyama)
:Sandshrew-alola: (Toxtricity, Hariyama)
:zorua-hisui: (Toxtricity)
:Houndour: (Breloom)



I'm going to stop there, those are the mons I felt I had an opinion on/experience with. Feel free to chime in!
 
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I don't feel like we need S+, as that category only applies to Gliscor. Putting it at the top of S should be fine.
Magmar should switch with Frogadier.
Rhydon should be placed in A+ for being arguably the best physically defensive Unaware Pokemon.
Girafarig should switch places with Magneton.
Misdreavus should move down to A-. It has been very underwhelming every time I have faced it.
Munchlax should be placed in A for being one of the best special tanks.
Dusclops should be placed in A.
Add Tinkaton to the list of Bisharp evolutions.
Slowpoke should move down to A- or B+ for being weak to Dark and being unable to OHKO a Bisharp Tsareena with 252 HP with a 252+ Def Body Press. It is also weak to Ghost, which Stantler Ceruledge can exploit. I replaced Slowpoke on my team for Shellder just because of these flaws.
Add Porygon2 above Litleo in B+ for being outclassed by Dunsparce, Magneton, Dusclops, Dipplin, Rhydon, etc.
 
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Add Porygon2 above Litleo in B+ for being outclassed by Dunsparce, Magneton, Dusclops, Dipplin, Rhydon, etc.
It’s not outclassed by any of those whatsoever but ok.
S+ rank

:Gligar: (Gyarados, Milotic, Hitmonlee, Chansey)

S

:Qwilfish-Hisui: (Ceruledge, Clodsire)
Qwil and Glig should just be one rank yeah, also put hariy on both.
A+

:Bisharp: (Tsareena, Lycanroc-Dusk, Hatterene, Blaziken,
:Electabuzz: (Vivillon)
:Primeape: (Samurott-Hisui)
:Vullaby: (Clodsire, Chansey, Gyarados)
:Misdreavus: (Gholdengo, Milotic, Ninetales-A, etc.)
:Magneton: (Clefable, Hydreigon)
Hatterene and lycan dusk should be removed from bish, prolly put conk there instead. Electabuzz should have clef listed, useful mag alternative. Vullaby should have avalugg listed and misdreavus should switch places with mag.
A

:Girafarig: (Toxtricity, Noivern, Gholdengo)
:Stantler: (Ceruledge)
:Chansey: (Skeledirge, Clefable, Hatterene)
:Slowpoke: (Gyarados, Milotic)
:Mudbray: (Cloyster)
:Frogadier: (Vivillon)
Put hariyama on Stantler prolly das all, also lowkey munchlax should be in this rank since it’s basically less passive chansey.
A-

:Dusclops: (Garganacl, Reuniclus)
:Magmar: (Vivillon, Cinderace, Meowscarada)
:Dunsparce: (Toxapex, Slowking-Galar, Pelipper)
:Dipplin: (Corviknight)
:Rhydon: (Garganacl, Hatterene, Skeledirge)
Idk maybe move magmar and clops up, also add corv for clops it’s very good.
B+

:Munchlax: (Clodsire, Toxapex, Milotic)
:Cranidos: (Breloom, Hitmonlee)
:Cetoddle: (Breloom, Hariyama)
:Houndour: (Breloom)
:Koraidon:
:Litleo: (Sunflora)
Cetoddle seems bad over Sandshrew alola, also salandit should be ranked it’s viable in sun. Also add arcanine to munchlax.
 
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I don't feel like we need S+, as that category only applies to Gliscor. Putting it at the top of S should be fine.
Magmar should switch with Frogadier.
Rhydon should be placed in A+ for being arguably the best physically defensive Unaware Pokemon.
Girafarig should switch places with Magneton.
Misdreavus should move down to A-. It has been very underwhelming every time I have faced it.
Munchlax should be placed in A for being one of the best special tanks.
Dusclops should be placed in A.
Add Tinkaton to the list of Bisharp evolutions.
Slowpoke should move down to A- or B+ for being weak to Dark and being unable to OHKO a Bisharp Tsareena with 252 HP with a 252+ Def Body Press. It is also weak to Ghost, which Stantler Ceruledge can exploit. I replaced Slowpoke on my team for Shellder just because of these flaws.
Add Porygon2 above Litleo in B+ for being outclassed by Dunsparce, Magneton, Dusclops, Dipplin, Rhydon, etc.

I haven't ordered the list in terms of viability within a tier, so if somebody wants to make a suggestion there then feel free. I just wrote them up as I came up with them.

Added all of your evolution suggestions.

I moved Munchlax up to A as per your and Notgamingreally arguments. Moved Misdreavus down a tier. None of its roles are that dominant, but it has a lot of set variation. It can fit on balance teams, offers a lot of utility, bulky setup :milotic: or special/physically offensive with :gholdengo: or :breloom:. I do agree with you that it's rarely been able to turn the tide of a game on its own though, but it does put in effort pretty consistently. I moved Girafarig up a tier, because yeah its probably A+. I'll move Dusclops up a tier too. I'll add Porygon-2 aswell, though I don't think its outclassed by either of the mons you suggest though.

Personally I think there's a significant enough gap between Gligar and Qwilfish-H to justify putting them in separate tiers. When teambuilding I find it a lot easier to not use Qwilfish-H, while Gligar is on every team I build regardless of the playstyle.

I could go either way with Magmar. Personally I think it's the worst Vivillon evolution out of Electabuzz and Frogadier. Electabuzz is faster and harder to switch into (imo), while Frogadier has a very solid niche on rain teams with boosted hydro pumps and hazard support. I'll wait until there's more discussion.

You're looking at Slowpoke through the wrong lens. You don't bother with body press and with Gyarados you're not weak to knock off. I ranked it based on the set I used in my RMT, where it's an excellent setup sweeper, physical wall and Gligar counter. It's got 165/89/120 defences with intimidate and the same attack stat as Deoxys-A with reliable recovery, status, setup (def, sp.def and attack) and an excellent typing.

It’s not outclassed by any of those whatsoever but ok.

Qwil and Glig should just be one rank yeah, also put hariy on both.

Hatterene and lycan dusk should be removed from bish, prolly put conk there instead. Electabuzz should have clef listed, useful mag alternative. Vullaby should have avalugg listed and misdreavus should switch places with mag.

Put hariyama on Stantler prolly das all, also lowkey munchlax should be in this rank since it’s basically less passive chansey.

Idk maybe move magmar and clops up, also add corv for clops it’s very good.

Cetoddle seems bad over Sandshrew alola, also salandit should be ranked it’s viable in sun.

Added evo suggestions. Kept Hatterene and Lycanroc-Dusk as I've seen both used to good effect. Cetoddle has access to belly drum and better bulk, which is nice since it can use with Breloom for duel stab technican priority + belly drum.

What does Salandit run?
 
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Added evo suggestions. Kept Hatterene and Lycanroc-Dusk as I've seen both used to good effect. Cetoddle has access to belly drum and better bulk, which is nice since it can use with Breloom for duel stab technican priority + belly drum.

What does Salandit run?
Wdym you kept lycanroc dusk it can’t even use lycanroc dusk
Do you mean pawniard
Salandit runs sunflora evo for sun teams basically.
Also Sandshrew has the raw power and very importantly triple axel, which means it can solely wallbreak more.
Personally I think there's a significant enough gap between Gligar and Qwilfish-H to justify putting them in separate tiers. When teambuilding I find it a lot easier to not use Qwilfish-H, while Gligar is on every team I build regardless of the playstyle.
Qwilfish h still fits in every structure tho, weather, semi stall, stall, balance, ho, offense, hazard stack. It’s probably as versatile as Gligar because it has such a good typing + movepool.
 
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Hello everyone, quick suggestions for the VR:
  1. You can add :hitmontop: as an evo for :qwilfish-hisui:: SD/Rapid Spin/Barb Barrage/Bite with Technician is fine and being a Dark type that can spin is so good.

  2. :piloswine:/:tsareena: and :sandshrew-alola:/:hitmontop:or :toxtricity: are quite good too since Gligar rules the tier. The first having huge Atk and very strong STABs + decent bulk with some utility, the second taking advantage of Technician with Triple Axel/Icicle Spear and Bullet Punch.

  3. :Kubfu:/:Ceruledge: can be mentioned (probably A- at least imo): it's strong, fast, can absorb WoW and Fighting/Ghost is an excellent coverage, only walled by Normal/Ghost that are quite common I admit (:zorua-hisui:/:toxtricity:, :stantler:/:ceruledge:, :chansey:/:skeledirge:, etc.).
    Also I'm pretty sure :Kubfu: is the best Fighting type as Stage 1 and deserves some recognition, especially when Dark types are so good this gen. I haven't tried :kubfu:/:gyarados: but it must be ok as well.

  4. :Porygon2: can't evolve into :Clodsire: since it's already Stage2. In a more offensive way, :kommo-o: sets with Clangorous Soul/Boomburst may work once you got rid of Unaware things.
    I've never tried it but on paper it can take advantage of Soundproof to switch into opposing Boomburst for instance while Bulletproof is a good immunity against Focus Miss Blast.

That's all for now, thanks and enjoy these last few days as OMoTM!
 
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