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Metagame Cross Evolution

Nitro Indigo said:
Why isn't Fur Coat banned if Ice Scales is?
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smellslikememe said:
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The second quickban is something that was agreed upon very quickly, and seems to have a fairly high amount of agreement among the community as well; Ice Scales turns any Frosmoth inheritor into a stupidly bulky special wall that can easily set up on nearly any Special attacker in the metagame as well as passive Pokemon such as Wailmer or Tangela. It isn't a slouch defensively, either - 40/35/60 defenses with Ice Scales turns practically any Pokemon with reliable recovery into a nearly unbreakable Special wall with Special bulk rivaling that of fully invested Eviolite Chansey. With its access to U-Turn, Dual Screens, and Defog, it can almost always switch in on any Special Attack while still providing team support. Although it certainly struggles with Physical attacks, the extreme splashability of any of its sets goes a step beyond invalidating Special attackers - it actively punishes even using them. Due to the aforementioned invalidation and punishing of Special Attackers, its sole abuser's far-above-average stat bonuses, as well as a consensus within the community, the Cross Evolution council has decided to quickban Ice Scales as well.
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Basically Frosmoth is also a decent evolution, while Alolan Persian is not. Frosmoth gets access to several good moves and has a good stat boost on top of that. Persion just provides 25 all around, while Frosmoth provides 40/40/25/80/60/45 stats. That’s also after providing Quiver Dance.
However, the thing pushing it over the edge is halving all special damage, which both can be used to make unkillable special walls or guarantee set up with Quiver Dance or Dragon Dance. Frosmoth is a fine evolution with Shield Dust, but not with Ice Scales, while Persian asks you to use a pretty crappy evolution just for Fur Coat.
 
Wigglytuff is on the spreadsheet twice, and currently I'm having trouble coming up with teammates for this set:

Noivern (Whismur) @ Throat Spray
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
 
Nitro Indigo said:
Wigglytuff is on the spreadsheet twice, and currently I'm having trouble coming up with teammates for this set:

Noivern (Whismur) @ Throat Spray
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
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Why whismur?
There are way better choices for a normal type 1st stage, namely Porygon (for power), Lickitung (for bulk) and Helioptile (for speed and another STAB)
 
Dogpraxis said:
I noticed their wasn’t a hyper offense sample and was wondering if this could do the job?https://pokepast.es/104bb1b6f5956538.
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It's a fine team, I've added it and if you want to write an explanation for your team let me know so I can link that as well. I appreciate the submission!

It does seem to struggle a big with some common threats though, I will say that the first thing that crossed my mind is that this team would struggle heavily with counterplay against Wailmer, as it doesn't seem to have a dedicated check and basically everything on the team fears a Scald burn. Some of the Flying-type/Levitating Doublade evolutions might be an issue as well.

Offensively it seems to struggle with priority in general, which isn't too out of the ordinary for a hyper offense team, but a potential death sentence in a matchup with a strong priority user like Honedge or Munchlax. Diglett as the suicide lead looks good on paper, but it's basically completely passive meaning it can become setup fodder for opposing offensive Pokemon (Honedge in particular). At the very least I think it'd be worth looking into a revenge killer or priority user.

Overall, I personally think that it should follow the structure of a more traditional HO more closely, since while the team may look viable due to the apparent sheer power of the Pokemon, the overreliance on generally inconsistent setup may act as more of a poison than a boon to this team.
 
smellslikememe said:
It's a fine team, I've added it and if you want to write an explanation for your team let me know so I can link that as well. I appreciate the submission!

It does seem to struggle a big with some common threats though, I will say that the first thing that crossed my mind is that this team would struggle heavily with counterplay against Wailmer, as it doesn't seem to have a dedicated check and basically everything on the team fears a Scald burn. Some of the Flying-type/Levitating Doublade evolutions might be an issue as well.

Offensively it seems to struggle with priority in general, which isn't too out of the ordinary for a hyper offense team, but a potential death sentence in a matchup with a strong priority user like Honedge or Munchlax. Diglett as the suicide lead looks good on paper, but it's basically completely passive meaning it can become setup fodder for opposing offensive Pokemon (Honedge in particular). At the very least I think it'd be worth looking into a revenge killer or priority user.

Overall, I personally think that it should follow the structure of a more traditional HO more closely, since while the team may look viable due to the apparent sheer power of the Pokemon, the overreliance on generally inconsistent setup may act as more of a poison than a boon to this team.
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I think you’re critiques are valid especially on the priority bit.

Not sure about a different suicide lead though.
 
Dogpraxis said:
Would you say honedge or sandshrew alola is a better priority user?
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the main draw of sandshrew-a is triple axel, but honedge's defensive profile is a lot better and gets more setup opportunities overall. i'd say for your purposes honedge is better, but sandshrew matches up better against bulkier/slower teams. in my experience honedge generally does best with a bulkier lo/sash sd set, while sandshrew tends to appreciate extra power/consistency on triple axel more, and run a little extra speed to consistently outspeed opposing bulky pokemon.
 
So it basically comes down to the matchup against the bulk offense scale? Then I’ll chose honedge.

By the way I recently saw this and I wanna bring it up with you. https://pokepast.es/557ef697748e7bbd.

Also I’d like to edit the sample to this. https://pokepast.es/a00623360f3e5be9. (More changes could come later)

And I noticed the larvesta, leafeon set had more than two moves from leafeon.

and one more thing is there a plan to make an evo tier list?
 
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fart goblin said:
I don't know if it's just me being a noob to the metagame, but Arcanine-Munchlax is probably one of the best sweepers in the meta and facing it is a nightmare even with would-be checks like Fur Coat Tangela and Unaware users thanks to its surprisingly wide offensive movepool giving it the option to run a BoltBeam punch move (or Seed Bomb) in conjunction with Extreme Speed and Earthquake. In addition to this, not only does it receive access to the coveted STAB boost on Extreme Speed, it's beefy as hell with defenses of 170/75/115 and its Attack stat of 125 is far from bad, especially compared to Linoone, as an example. Not to mention its access to Intimidate lets it switch in easier than it normally would be for it.

It's good. Use it. Carry an Unaware 'mon on all teams.
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if you like that try https://pokepast.es/4180dc3ae41e6297.
 
And another thing can I suggest an addition to a mons evo list? I wanna recommend adding toxtricity to scythers viable evo list.
 
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Cuddly said:
braviary.gif

Since it’s
AMERICA‘S INDEPENDENCE DAY​
What are some good LC Pokemon to use with Braviary as a CE?
Sheer Force and Defiant are great abilities and Braviary gives +30 HP, +40 Atk, +25 Def, + 20 SpA, +25 SpD, +20 Spe.
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late time but archen seems decent as a choice user with the bird as an evo.
Braviary (archen) Choice Band/scarf
Ability: defiant
Evs: 252 attack/ 252 speed.
Adamant/ jolly nature
- head smash/ stone edge
- brave bird
- close combat
- earthquake/ u-turn
Stats 85/152/70/94/70/90
Main attraction is intimidate countering in a meta with gyarados evos so it’s not out of the question.
 
How does chanseys access to wish + teleport work in ce? If I evolve into something that doesn’t have either could I still use it?
 
So there's currently a conversation in the Other Metas chat on Showdown about what Gen 9 brings to this metagame.
  • Gholdengo gives massive boosts to special attack and speed. It's also one of those weird evolutions where the primary type changes.
  • If you evolve Tandemaus/Maushold into/from something with Hone Claws, you'll be able to guarantee 10 hits of Population Bomb, especially if you keep Technician.
  • Breloom is back. I've only played Cross Evolution in Gen 8, so I don't know how often it was used in past gens, but +90 attack has got to be good.
  • Girafarig, Dunsparce, Primeape, and Bisharp can now be cross-evolved. I think Bisharp will get the most use.
 
Considering that Pawniard is already a decent mon in this meta, I would definitely keep an eye on Bisharp. Gallade also got massive buffs this gen, gaining Sharpness and Sacred Sword. Anything that crevos into Gallade therefore gets a 135-power STAB move with no downside that ignores opponents’ stat changes, in addition to the extra 90 Attack that it gave already. Bisharp did lose Knock Off this gen, but Gallade did not, so Gallade Bisharp can still use the Knock Off/Sucker Punch sets that made regular Bisharp an OU staple. I think it’s going to be a major force in the Gen 9 meta.

Also, Breloom doesn’t just get +90 Attack, it gets +35 Speed and Spore, STAB Technician Mach Punch, or even Poison Heal if you want to run something tankier with it. I think we might have to have a serious discussion about introducing Sleep Moves Clause.

Other notable things I’ve noticed:
  • Garganacl gives 40/30/25 boosts to defenses, which isn’t the biggest but is pretty solid considering that you also get Salt Cure, Recover, immunity to status and a free Ghost resist.
  • Revival Blessing needs to be banned immediately (yes, before it’s even coded, it is that urgent). The fact that both Rabsca (which also gets +84 Sp. Atk) and Pawmot get it means that you can put it on any crevo.
  • Shed Tail will probably not be a major force in this meta considering that both of its users are single-stage evolutionary lines so they can’t pass it on to anything, but I’d keep an eye on it just in case. That move is straight-up uncompetitive.
  • Cetitan’s stats might be useful for something. Thick Fat is kind of underrated as far as Abilities go.
  • Revavroom has significant increases to Attack and Speed as well as solid increases to the rest of its stats. It also gets Shift Gear.
  • Baxcalibur gets +50 Attack, Dragon Dance, and an immunity to burn.
  • We lost Milotic this gen, which is a very hefty loss of something that’s been one of the faces of the meta since its inception. Press F to pay respects.
  • Speaking of respects, Last Respects needs a ban. Houndstone as a crevo is fine, but that move is not skill-based.
  • Scald being outright gone, Toxic and Knock Off losing a lot of their best users, and recovery PP being nerfed are massive blows to stall. That’s true for every meta, but especially one like this where stall just lost some of its biggest power players and offense gained several.
  • Chansey no longer gets Toxic, Wish or Teleport. WishPort made Chansey broken as a evo last gen, but since it no longer can do that it should probably be allowed at the start of this gen, with a suspect later if it becomes problematic again.
 
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Today I learned that Sharpness exists.

Also, the Gen 8.5 Pokémon might be fun to use, but I don't know which ones are in the code for SV. (I know Hisuian Zorua/rk, White Basculin, and Ursaluna definitely are.)

EDIT: Wait, I just remembered that White Basculin gets Last Respects as an egg move according to Bulbapedia. That could be scary.

EDIT2: I just noticed that Gholdengo is listed as a stage 3 in the spreadsheet.
 
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Gen 8 has come to a close, and with the new gen upon us, I'd like for people to keep Gen 9 discussion in the Gen 9 Cross Evolution thread. There'll be no more changes to the VR or ruleset, but I'll still be accepting sample teams and sets should requests come up.
 
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