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Metagame Cross Evolution
- Thread starter TimeZone
- Start date
I do think that Gligar x Gyara is broken. However, I still want to side with no ban because Gligar is not universally broken. All other Gligar evos have their own niches and are decently viable but none of them are centralizing. I also don't have too much trouble checking Gligar, but that's just me so that isn't factored into the argument. If it were an individual ban on Gligar x Gyara then I would vote for ban, but I still do want to use other evo's, mainly Gligar x Persian-A.
I'm not sure if the problem's with Gligar or Gyarados, but my gut is telling me they're both an issue right now.
Going to abstain for now due to me not having enough information on this metagame, but I think we need to resuspect both Milotic and Gyarados crossevos due to their sheer power, recovery, and good abilities they give to donors...
Anyways, some sets for the VR.
Espeon (Yanma) @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
Stats: 75/75/55/160/75/150
The Eeveeloutions give Yanma a new lease on life, and Espeon is no exception, giving it access to a real mean Trick set, and allows it to naturally use Psychic well. It disrupts defensive teams very nicely between Trick and Magic Bounce, and it can even take an attack from a wall... 150 base speed and 160 base SpA allow it to put in work against offensive teams, too. Psychic cleanly 2HKOS Pdon, and puts dents into everything else that doesn't resist. I think it deserves to rise to B-, at the lowest.
Araquanid (Slowpoke) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Lunge/Zen Headbutt/Toxic/Mirror Coat
Stats: 120/95/105/50/100/30
My preferred Araquanid host. 95 Attack paired with Water Bubble is really solid, and 120/105/100 bulk is good. Earthquake allows it to not be a sitting duck versus Primal Groudon, which is a big plus. Also can actually use Lunge well, which is a shocker to anyone trying to wear Slowpoke down. Weak to status, however, and is very slow.
Ninetales (Litten) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Fake Out
- Taunt
Stats: 80/100/75/91/75/105
Untested with pretty mediocre stats, but the main reason I mention this is being the fastest Drought pivot, which can really help some Sun Sweepers function much better. Flare Blitz can do some damage, too, and it should work decently as a lead. You can also go special or mixed, but 91 SpA does not do Litten any favors. (I'm waiting for the code to make this available before I can test this one)
Going to abstain for now due to me not having enough information on this metagame, but I think we need to resuspect both Milotic and Gyarados crossevos due to their sheer power, recovery, and good abilities they give to donors...
Anyways, some sets for the VR.
Espeon (Yanma) @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
Stats: 75/75/55/160/75/150
The Eeveeloutions give Yanma a new lease on life, and Espeon is no exception, giving it access to a real mean Trick set, and allows it to naturally use Psychic well. It disrupts defensive teams very nicely between Trick and Magic Bounce, and it can even take an attack from a wall... 150 base speed and 160 base SpA allow it to put in work against offensive teams, too. Psychic cleanly 2HKOS Pdon, and puts dents into everything else that doesn't resist. I think it deserves to rise to B-, at the lowest.
Araquanid (Slowpoke) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Lunge/Zen Headbutt/Toxic/Mirror Coat
Stats: 120/95/105/50/100/30
My preferred Araquanid host. 95 Attack paired with Water Bubble is really solid, and 120/105/100 bulk is good. Earthquake allows it to not be a sitting duck versus Primal Groudon, which is a big plus. Also can actually use Lunge well, which is a shocker to anyone trying to wear Slowpoke down. Weak to status, however, and is very slow.
Ninetales (Litten) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Fake Out
- Taunt
Stats: 80/100/75/91/75/105
Untested with pretty mediocre stats, but the main reason I mention this is being the fastest Drought pivot, which can really help some Sun Sweepers function much better. Flare Blitz can do some damage, too, and it should work decently as a lead. You can also go special or mixed, but 91 SpA does not do Litten any favors. (I'm waiting for the code to make this available before I can test this one)
also going to abstain on this one, I've not really played very much in awhile so a lot of my viewpoints are likely to be outdated (for example, I don't recall seeing a lot of Sub or Taunt on Dragon Dance Gligar even though it seems so obvious in hindsight), plus I'm a bit torn anyway since while Gligar x Gyarados is certainly overcentralizing and I believe Gligar to be the more influential piece of the puzzle as it were Gligar also has a ton of other viable sets that aren't overcentralizing, and I'm a bit worried losing those might impact the meta negatively
speaking of other viable Gligar sets:
As far as the health of the meta goes I'm tempted to agree with you, but unfortunately I think this would be considered a complex ban (I've not really gotten a chance to discuss Cross Evo tiering policy but it stands to reason seeing as it's basically banning a specific nickname on a specific Pokémon) and honestly Cross Evo is complicated enough to get into as it is, it doesn't need complex bans too as much as the people who are already familiar with the meta might benefit from it
speaking of other viable Gligar sets:
The fastest Drought pivot that benefits from it in some way (not as overtly as getting boosts to its main STAB, but eliminating a Water weakness is still rather useful) is actually, indeed, Gligar; being Gligar it also has considerably more bulk than Litten, at the cost of losing the attack power boost from the sunlight. Of course, then you'd have to deal with the ridiculous opportunity cost of losing out on Gligar x Gyarados, so Litten is probably better in practice for that reason alone (well, and the Sun-boosted Flare Blitzes are nice too)
^^^^^^Agreed, I also abstain. Not enough people abusing gligar in general on main. At least not offensively no one is(the ones that do, run weird coverage like Waterfall).
I would also like to nominate Electabuzz x Vivillon by itself to S rank.
Vivillon (Electabuzz) @ Leftovers
Ability: Compound Eyes
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 44 Def / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast
I'll elaborate more later, but this set here i have had so much success with on main. Almost no one prepares for it, but even then, it has sleep powder to either use any check/counters as bait or allow the next pokemon on your team to do so. I'm aware we don't rank donors separately from their receivers, but I think Electabuzz x Vivillon may be an exception. Just my thoughts, so far.
Edit: Hurricane could possibly fit somewhere on here, but at the cost of either getting rid of Sleep powder or Quiver dance. Which defeats the purpose of this set IMHO.
EDIT 2: The ev spread is to live specific Priorities, such as LO/Black glasses + Tough claws (unboosted by ss) sucker Punch from Pawniard Barbaracle, Lo aqua jet Scyther/Type: nullxBibarel (not boosted by sds obviously), Clutches a bit of hp left from Honedge x Hitmontop tech Shadow sneak after Sds(no Lo).
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B- rank should be fine for Yanma x Espeon, considering that Psychic is a rather mediocre offensive type and that 160 SpA tends to feel underpowered especially compared to monsters like a lot of Vivillon evo's and such. Life Orb should also be considered as part of that set.
EDIT: Maybe B-Rank at most
PDon isn't very centralizing, as checks are littered across the metagame, and in this meta where power creep is extremely prevalent you may find that the rest of your team can deal with PDon much better than a 95 Atk Earthquake. In any case, 120/105/100 is by no means good. Among slow offensive 'mons, it's mediocre, and considering Slowpoke's large number of weaknesses, the fact that you're not investing any into either defense, and your low speed, as well as a plethora of common Electric-type evo's, it will find itself outclassed in more ways than one by other Araquanid evo's. (These would by Omanyte, Tirtouga, Krabby, etc...)
Of course Slowpoke won't function as the primary Primal Groudon answer, and it also is not centralizing; it's just that Primal Groudon's the only thing with Desolate Land, and that being able to stand up against it if need arises is huge for a Water Bubble breaker otherwise absolutely walled by Primal Groudon. Healing is a nice boon, as well, even with some mediocre levels of bulk; Araquanid suffered from this in standard play, too, but would probably love healing itself with something besides Leech Life. (Omanyte might also be able to pass by this, but is also weak to Earthquake...)
And by the way, I forgot something important. Slowpoke also gets Trick Room, turning that horrid speed into a monstrous advantage. Saying it's unwallable is a flat-out lie, though, considering stuff like Milotic -> Wailmer/Finneon exist, and are common on many teams. Water Bubble only gets that group so far.
Krabby might still be better, simply due to its sheer power. Also, due to that low 95 base Attack, Slowpoke needs every ounce of power it can muster...
Points about Espeon (Yanma) are all solid, especially considering that Electabuzz is just a monster in this. I just like Choiced Trick as a solid way to shut down walls for good.
Gligar suspect results
For: 2
- Anaconja
- lightninging
Against: 4
- Myself kek
- FunBot28
- NidoTheKing
- The Ruins of Alpha (aka Drampa's Grandpa)
Abstain: 3
- Zephyr Dragon Lord
- Stocke
- TimeZone
Current vote: 2 - 4 - 3
Out of people who are voting for/against a Gligar ban (excluding abstains), 2/3, or 66.66%, vote against a ban, making no ban the popular vote. Since ban does not have a 60% majority, it is not banned.
For: 2
- Anaconja
- lightninging
Against: 4
- Myself kek
- FunBot28
- NidoTheKing
- The Ruins of Alpha (aka Drampa's Grandpa)
Abstain: 3
- Zephyr Dragon Lord
- Stocke
- TimeZone
Current vote: 2 - 4 - 3
Out of people who are voting for/against a Gligar ban (excluding abstains), 2/3, or 66.66%, vote against a ban, making no ban the popular vote. Since ban does not have a 60% majority, it is not banned.
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Yup, it seems that my vote was not enough convincing. The fact is that I could have only played a few battles (mainly friendlies or tournaments) due to the lack of a ladder, so I surely don't have enough experience. I could say that Gligar always had a determinant role in the games I've played (both for my and my opponent), whatever it was defensive or offensive; it's way centralizing in my opinion. Sorry guys for the poor quality of my vote, this is the first time ever I have wanted to get involved into a suspect test.
Add Anaconja 's vote (Ban) and remove yCocokie (Anaconja specifically told me on ROM that he/she'll keep the pro-ban vote and didn't want to make another post saying the same as the previous one before voting period started). Results are the same though:
Excluding abstains, Gligar has received a 33,33% ban vote. As >=60% ban votes were needed to ban Gligar, Gligar won't be banned from cross-evolution and will be kept legal.
Thank you to all who participated on the suspect test.
Tagging urkerab to remove the suspect format on ROM.
I'm sorry you lacked the experience to vote on the suspect. Remember, we've all lacked experience at some point! Thanks for contributing to the suspect test! There's nothing wrong on getting involved and, in fact, your argument wasn't bad, just needed to be developed a bit more.
On the VR:
I would like to hear some discussion on Yanma and Electabuzz rises. As of now I'll have to test Yanma, but I've been wanting to suggest Electabuzz as a whole rise to A+ (I don't think Elecabuzz x Vivillon deserves S and I'll won't rank it separatedly). Will expand further later.
Added Anaconja in place of yCocokie.
Also, I'd think Electa for S- maybe. It's fast and has decent power, making it a good revenge killer, and has multiple sets it can abuse.
EDIT: It does struggle against some Ground-types and a lot of Electric types though, which is something to keep in mind.
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I'm sorry, but if Gligar is not banned then something MUST be done to reduce its absolute dominance of the metagame. Either ban gyarados as a cross, or complex-ban gligar x gyarados. Seriously, practically every single team uses it because it literally is an dominant as DPP garchomp in ou.
Maybe you've been having an entirely different experience of this meta then I have, but I don't see Gligar that much (indeed not as much as I should tbh).
Try running some of the counters that have been brought up repeatedly in this thread if you see it constantly. Abuse the metagame trends. It's not so op that its presense isn't abusable by good, common mons.
The consensus was it doesn't need to be banned. I'm sorry if you don't like it but that's how suspects work.
Here you have some Gligar x Gyarados checks and counters. Since Gligar has no full counter I've also listed the variants each one can't beat.
Defensive Type:Null
Loses to: depends on the Type:Null set
The best Gligar counter imo. Bulky variants (Milotic, Quagsire, Chansey) can take repeated hits from Gligar. If Type:Null carries Ice Beam it is not afraid of Taunt, while Roar or Unaware can deal with boosted Gligar. Toxic is commonplace on many defensive Pokémon and Gligar does not appreciate it.
Porygon2 x Gardevoir
Loses to: can deal with most variants that have not boosted a lot
A true nightmare for Gligar, since it can Ice Beam, Will-O-Wisp, or even Foul Play. Fares especially well vs. Intimidate variants since Trace returns the Attack drop back to Gligar. Often EV'd to avoid the 2HKO from Gligar's max Attack +1 Earthquake (248 HP / 96+ Defense).
Doublade
Loses to: Taunt
Doublade has no problem walling Gligar's STABs and common moves. It can then proceed to Toxic it (defensive variants in general), Defog its hazards or gain momentum with U-turn (Doublade x Flygon), Roar it away (Doublade x Dragonite) or even use it as set-up bait (SD Doublade). A healthy, unstatused Gligar will beat Doublade if it packs Taunt though.
Bulky Water-types
Lose to: Taunt and boosted Gligars, especially SD
The more physically bulky, the better. They can take Gligar's attacks decently but they dislike boosted variants due to the fact that they do not resist Gligar's STABs. They can try to burn Gligar with STAB super-effective Scalds, some can phaze it with Roar or gain momentum with U-turn.
Fast support Arceus
Loses to: Dragon Dance and Sub variants. Can't switch into any but defensive Gligars
Fast support Arceus can easily burn Gligar with Will-O-Wisp before it can do anything to it. Arceus is usually more of a Gligar chek though since it doesn't appreciate taking hits from offensive Gligar variants.
Fur Coat Gligar
Loses to: Taunt. Depends on how boosted the opposing Gligar is, can win due to Taunt / Foul Play mindgames
Gligar x Persian-Alola can wall and phaze opposing Gligar x Gyarados, gain momentum with Parting Shot or Foul Play greedy offensive variants.
Others
Prankster Pokémon may attempt to put it under control with priority Encore or status, Unaware can slow down boosted Gligars and try to status them, decently bulky Chansey crosses can take hits from it, Magneton x Flygon and Gligar x Gyarados are often useless against each other...
Water-types
Lose to: depends on the Pokémon
A lot of offensive Water-types have no problem OHKOing Gligar with strong super-effective STAB attacks (and a lot of them carry Ice-type moves too). If they can outspeed +1 Gligar x Gyarados (e.g. Krabby x Ninjask, Swift Swim sweepers under rain, boosted Seadra x Vivillon) or can take a hit from +1 Gligar (Sash Shell Smashers or Seadra x Vivillon, Primal Kyogre, most Krabby...) they are even better checks.
Ice-types
Lose to: often Dragon Dance
They are few and far between and often not very good in the Cross Evolution metagame, but they have no trouble OHKOing any Gligar variant. They're often slow so they cannot outspeed +1 Gligar and can't take many hits from it though.
Electric-types
Lose to: depends on the Pokémon
This might seem a bit contradictory since Gligar is a Ground-type and thus immune to Electric-type moves, but due to their tendancy to carry Ice-type moves, be very fast, have a Ground immunity through secondary typing or ability, and resisting Acrobatics, they can proof capable Gligar checks. Very fast Electric-types (Yanma x Jolteon, Electabuzz x Vivillon) can outspeed +1 Gligar and 2HKO it with Hidden Power Ice, and can often survive Acrobatics especially since a lot of them carry a Focus Sash. Both Yanma and Electabuzz x Vivillon learn sleep moves too to put Gligar under control. Electabuzz x Greninja outspeeds every unboosted Gligar and OHKOes any non-specially defensive one with STAB Ice Beam, but it is OHKOed in return by Earthquake. I've talked about Magneton and if it carries Hidden Power Ice it will beat Gligar almost every time.
Rhydon x Dragonite
Loses to: can check Gligar consistently unless it is weakened
Being very bulky, enough to survive even boosted attacks, and having Multiscale to help with greedy Gligars, Rhydon can proceed to OHKO Gligar with Ice Punch or set-up Swords Dance on the least offensively threatening variants, especially if healthy.
Gligar itself
Loses to: depends on both Gligar sets
Defensive Gligars are often useless against each other while offensive variants can use defensive ones as set-up fodder and it is obviously a mirror match vs. opposing offensive Gligar.
Others
Ditto may revenge kill a greedy Gligar, some revenge killers and boosted Pokémon can take out Gligar if weakened or if they previously boosted respectively...
Here you have some Gligar x Gyarados checks and counters. Since Gligar has no full counter I've also listed the variants each one can't beat.
Defensive Type:Null
Loses to: depends on the Type:Null set
The best Gligar counter imo. Bulky variants (Milotic, Quagsire, Chansey) can take repeated hits from Gligar. If Type:Null carries Ice Beam it is not afraid of Taunt, while Roar or Unaware can deal with boosted Gligar. Toxic is commonplace on many defensive Pokémon and Gligar does not appreciate it.
Porygon2 x Gardevoir
Loses to: can deal with most variants that have not boosted a lot
A true nightmare for Gligar, since it can Ice Beam, Will-O-Wisp, or even Foul Play. Fares especially well vs. Intimidate variants since Trace returns the Attack drop back to Gligar. Often EV'd to avoid the 2HKO from Gligar's max Attack +1 Earthquake (248 HP / 96+ Defense).
Doublade
Loses to: Taunt
Doublade has no problem walling Gligar's STABs and common moves. It can then proceed to Toxic it (defensive variants in general), Defog its hazards or gain momentum with U-turn (Doublade x Flygon), Roar it away (Doublade x Dragonite) or even use it as set-up bait (SD Doublade). A healthy, unstatused Gligar will beat Doublade if it packs Taunt though.
Bulky Water-types
Lose to: Taunt and boosted Gligars, especially SD
The more physically bulky, the better. They can take Gligar's attacks decently but they dislike boosted variants due to the fact that they do not resist Gligar's STABs. They can try to burn Gligar with STAB super-effective Scalds, some can phaze it with Roar or gain momentum with U-turn.
Fast support Arceus
Loses to: Dragon Dance and Sub variants. Can't switch into any but defensive Gligars
Fast support Arceus can easily burn Gligar with Will-O-Wisp before it can do anything to it. Arceus is usually more of a Gligar chek though since it doesn't appreciate taking hits from offensive Gligar variants.
Fur Coat Gligar
Loses to: Taunt. Depends on how boosted the opposing Gligar is, can win due to Taunt / Foul Play mindgames
Gligar x Persian-Alola can wall and phaze opposing Gligar x Gyarados, gain momentum with Parting Shot or Foul Play greedy offensive variants.
Others
Prankster Pokémon may attempt to put it under control with priority Encore or status, Unaware can slow down boosted Gligars and try to status them, decently bulky Chansey crosses can take hits from it, Magneton x Flygon and Gligar x Gyarados are often useless against each other...Most teams pack a Pokémon from this list and a soft check just in case something goes wrong. Chances are, if your team is good, you will have at least a decent chance to stop Gligar with one or two team members.
Water-types
Lose to: depends on the Pokémon
A lot of offensive Water-types have no problem OHKOing Gligar with strong super-effective STAB attacks (and a lot of them carry Ice-type moves too). If they can outspeed +1 Gligar x Gyarados (e.g. Krabby x Ninjask, Swift Swim sweepers under rain, boosted Seadra x Vivillon) or can take a hit from +1 Gligar (Sash Shell Smashers or Seadra x Vivillon, Primal Kyogre, most Krabby...) they are even better checks.
Ice-types
Lose to: often Dragon Dance
They are few and far between and often not very good in the Cross Evolution metagame, but they have no trouble OHKOing any Gligar variant. They're often slow so they cannot outspeed +1 Gligar and can't take many hits from it though.
Electric-types
Lose to: depends on the Pokémon
This might seem a bit contradictory since Gligar is a Ground-type and thus immune to Electric-type moves, but due to their tendancy to carry Ice-type moves, be very fast, have a Ground immunity through secondary typing or ability, and resisting Acrobatics, they can proof capable Gligar checks. Very fast Electric-types (Yanma x Jolteon, Electabuzz x Vivillon) can outspeed +1 Gligar and 2HKO it with Hidden Power Ice, and can often survive Acrobatics especially since a lot of them carry a Focus Sash. Both Yanma and Electabuzz x Vivillon learn sleep moves too to put Gligar under control. Electabuzz x Greninja outspeeds every unboosted Gligar and OHKOes any non-specially defensive one with STAB Ice Beam, but it is OHKOed in return by Earthquake. I've talked about Magneton and if it carries Hidden Power Ice it will beat Gligar almost every time.
Rhydon x Dragonite
Loses to: can check Gligar consistently unless it is weakened
Being very bulky, enough to survive even boosted attacks, and having Multiscale to help with greedy Gligars, Rhydon can proceed to OHKO Gligar with Ice Punch or set-up Swords Dance on the least offensively threatening variants, especially if healthy.
Gligar itself
Loses to: depends on both Gligar sets
Defensive Gligars are often useless against each other while offensive variants can use defensive ones as set-up fodder and it is obviously a mirror match vs. opposing offensive Gligar.
Others
Ditto may revenge kill a greedy Gligar, some revenge killers and boosted Pokémon can take out Gligar if weakened or if they previously boosted respectively...
Rhydon x Dragonite is more of a defensive check rather than offensively imho, and slash Rocky helmet for Gligar-P Alola as a potential item please. Rocky + Foul play from my (personal) experience almost always beats a boosting Gligar x Gyarados if kept healthy (shouldn't be too hard imo).
Thank you very much sir, that's quite positive for me and gives me the will to contributing more in the future, Cross-Evo being one of my favourite OM.
That's being said, talking about Electabuzz-Vivillon; well it's definitely a strong wallbreaker.
Here my set:
Vivillon (Electabuzz) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance / Sleep Powder
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
Here the stats of this thing: 100/113/47/158/105/165.
The issue is that you can't run both QD/Hurricane and Sleep Powder. I've decided to run QD because
But I guess that Sleep Powder/Hurricane/Thunder/Focus Blast is probably better, depending on the situation, since you can easily disable something in the opponent team thanks to 165 Speed (471 if Timid). Though, with 471 in Speed stats, +95 Speed Scarf user outspeed you -they quite common, right ?- and that might be a problem.
So, can this mon be considered as S-Rank ? Well, I'd say yes.
I'd suggest you run Focus Sash with Quiver Dance, as 100/47/105 is very frail (against sweepers, at least) and asleep mons seem to love waking up at the wrong time (when you switch in). I personally run Sleep Powder
Here you have some Gligar x Gyarados checks and counters. Since Gligar has no full counter I've also listed the variants each one can't beat.
Defensive Type:Null
Loses to: depends on the Type:Null set
The best Gligar counter imo. Bulky variants (Milotic, Quagsire, Chansey) can take repeated hits from Gligar. If Type:Null carries Ice Beam it is not afraid of Taunt, while Roar or Unaware can deal with boosted Gligar. Toxic is commonplace on many defensive Pokémon and Gligar does not appreciate it.
Porygon2 x Gardevoir
Loses to: can deal with most variants that have not boosted a lot
A true nightmare for Gligar, since it can Ice Beam, Will-O-Wisp, or even Foul Play. Fares especially well vs. Intimidate variants since Trace returns the Attack drop back to Gligar. Often EV'd to avoid the 2HKO from Gligar's max Attack +1 Earthquake (248 HP / 96+ Defense).
Doublade
Loses to: Taunt
Doublade has no problem walling Gligar's STABs and common moves. It can then proceed to Toxic it (defensive variants in general), Defog its hazards or gain momentum with U-turn (Doublade x Flygon), Roar it away (Doublade x Dragonite) or even use it as set-up bait (SD Doublade). A healthy, unstatused Gligar will beat Doublade if it packs Taunt though.
Bulky Water-types
Lose to: Taunt and boosted Gligars, especially SD
The more physically bulky, the better. They can take Gligar's attacks decently but they dislike boosted variants due to the fact that they do not resist Gligar's STABs. They can try to burn Gligar with STAB super-effective Scalds, some can phaze it with Roar or gain momentum with U-turn.
Fast support Arceus
Loses to: Dragon Dance and Sub variants. Can't switch into any but defensive Gligars
Fast support Arceus can easily burn Gligar with Will-O-Wisp before it can do anything to it. Arceus is usually more of a Gligar chek though since it doesn't appreciate taking hits from offensive Gligar variants.
Fur Coat Gligar
Loses to: Taunt. Depends on how boosted the opposing Gligar is, can win due to Taunt / Foul Play mindgames
Gligar x Persian-Alola can wall and phaze opposing Gligar x Gyarados, gain momentum with Parting Shot or Foul Play greedy offensive variants.
Others
Prankster Pokémon may attempt to put it under control with priority Encore or status, Unaware can slow down boosted Gligars and try to status them, decently bulky Chansey crosses can take hits from it, Magneton x Flygon and Gligar x Gyarados are often useless against each other...Most teams pack a Pokémon from this list and a soft check just in case something goes wrong. Chances are, if your team is good, you will have at least a decent chance to stop Gligar with one or two team members.
Water-types
Lose to: depends on the Pokémon
A lot of offensive Water-types have no problem OHKOing Gligar with strong super-effective STAB attacks (and a lot of them carry Ice-type moves too). If they can outspeed +1 Gligar x Gyarados (e.g. Krabby x Ninjask, Swift Swim sweepers under rain, boosted Seadra x Vivillon) or can take a hit from +1 Gligar (Sash Shell Smashers or Seadra x Vivillon, Primal Kyogre, most Krabby...) they are even better checks.
Ice-types
Lose to: often Dragon Dance
They are few and far between and often not very good in the Cross Evolution metagame, but they have no trouble OHKOing any Gligar variant. They're often slow so they cannot outspeed +1 Gligar and can't take many hits from it though.
Electric-types
Lose to: depends on the Pokémon
This might seem a bit contradictory since Gligar is a Ground-type and thus immune to Electric-type moves, but due to their tendancy to carry Ice-type moves, be very fast, have a Ground immunity through secondary typing or ability, and resisting Acrobatics, they can proof capable Gligar checks. Very fast Electric-types (Yanma x Jolteon, Electabuzz x Vivillon) can outspeed +1 Gligar and 2HKO it with Hidden Power Ice, and can often survive Acrobatics especially since a lot of them carry a Focus Sash. Both Yanma and Electabuzz x Vivillon learn sleep moves too to put Gligar under control. Electabuzz x Greninja outspeeds every unboosted Gligar and OHKOes any non-specially defensive one with STAB Ice Beam, but it is OHKOed in return by Earthquake. I've talked about Magneton and if it carries Hidden Power Ice it will beat Gligar almost every time.
Rhydon x Dragonite
Loses to: can check Gligar consistently unless it is weakened
Being very bulky, enough to survive even boosted attacks, and having Multiscale to help with greedy Gligars, Rhydon can proceed to OHKO Gligar with Ice Punch or set-up Swords Dance on the least offensively threatening variants, especially if healthy.
Gligar itself
Loses to: depends on both Gligar sets
Defensive Gligars are often useless against each other while offensive variants can use defensive ones as set-up fodder and it is obviously a mirror match vs. opposing offensive Gligar.
Others
Ditto may revenge kill a greedy Gligar, some revenge killers and boosted Pokémon can take out Gligar if weakened or if they previously boosted respectively...
Just a nitpick but IMO I think you should add Lairon next to Doublade because it can live a +6 Acro from offensive Gligod and proceed to KO with Metal Burst. Their bulks are nearly identical and the only real differences are Doublade having 30 more Atk and Lairon having Metal Burst.
+6 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Lairon: 284-335 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8+ Def Doublade: 284-334 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are WITHOUT Multiscale, too.
However, it should be noted that Doublade loses to Sub/Taunt variants, as Dragon Tail can never break a Sub in one hit. Lairon also loses as Metal Burst's damage would target the Sub rather than Gligar itself.
252 Atk Doublade Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 59-70 (14 - 16.6%) -- possible 7HKO
The list wasn't meant to be a complete one at all, those were just a few suggestions. Also, Lairon and Doublade do not lose to Sub necessarily, as they can pack Roar to phaze it out (Sub + Taunt is never run together).
Positive contributions are always welcome!
I have some suggestions regarding Electabuzz's placement on the VR. One option could be a rise to A+ (Electabuzz is being undersold at A). Another option would be to make an S- rank consisting of Scyther, Electabuzz and Magmar, leaving Type:Null at S and Gligar at S+.
But these are just suggestions. I'd like more discussion on the topic.
And maybe it's just me, but I don't think Choice Scarf is actually a quite common item in Cross Evolution, despite the metagame being quite obsessed with reaching higher speed tiers. Revenge killing is usually via raw Speed or priority.
Ok, I can understand Type null staying in the S rank tiers(it's versatile as hell). But why Magmar?
I would opt for the latter (did I say former? oops), since while Scyther and Magmar are very strong Pokemon in the current metagame, it's very obvious that both have their very noticeable flaws. Scyther, for example, is extremely prone to defensive Ghost-types (such as many Dusclops variants, especially x Gallade) and a glaring counter in Gligod still remains in the metagame. Furthermore, while 145 speed is by no means bad, it does get out-sped and OHKO'd by some common Pokemon, such as Electa x Viv, Scarfed Magmar x Gallade, etc.. Magmar has the power and the variability in terms of sets it can run to be an S- rank threat, but it does face some of the same issues that Scyther faces. TimeZone I think it effectively does what Electabuzz does, however I personally think that Magmar has better STABs and power but suffers in terms of Speed. An example of this is not being able to outspeed +1 Jolly Gligod, whereas Electabuzz can outspeed it.
EDIT: I think a difference between the two to note is that Electabuzz fulfills the role of the fast revenge killer while Magmar usually opts for power over Speed. Also Magmar's physical sets are probably more common due to STAB Flare Blitz, whereas Electabuzz only has ThunderPunch as a physical Electric-type STAB.
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Gallade, Serp, Nidoking, Vikavolt (LOL), hydreigon etc etc are much more easier to check imho. Gallade could be argued I suppose, but then bulky water types, Gligar(hariyama set in particular, probably checks it best), Rhydon x Dragonite, Dusclops x clefable either checks/counters all its sets including Gallade if it's not running (CB/charcoal) flare blitz of course. Faster Pokemon such as haunter, Yanma, Scyther, Vivillon mons etc all easily check it as well, baring Scarf, but then the above defensive pokes will have a easier time switching in if is scarfed oppose to running a deadly wall breaking/Sweeping set like Cb or sd. But anyways, it's mostly due to its speed tier being easy to take advantage of, not just gallade, but all of magmar's sets. Basically what I'm trying to say is that its checks and counters are much more commonly seen than Electabuzz's(even then, Between Vivillon/Greninja it usually puts any counters at mute), and it's not nearly as easy to abuse when compared to electabuzz either. You do have a point about trading power for speed though, I just think speed is a bit more prominent in this meta. Just my thoughts, bud.
P.S. And electabuzz has better coverage options, and can afford to run QD+SP which is something Magmar(most Vivillons actually)can't do unless it wants to be walled by either Gligar or Chansey.
Edit: Btw, Torracat runs a better Scarf set than Magmar Imo, it has uturn to pivot with scarf/CB even. But it is slower however.
Edit 2: Well, Grimer-Alola counters Greninja, but no one (except me) uses grimer alola ;p
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7crossevolution-93385
Lol I found something interesting, I'm able to use raichu-alola (original form) along with Magneton x Raichu-alola. dsm77773 is this allowed? Lmao we could be using regular Gyarados with its mevo stone along with Glidos hmmm
Lol I found something interesting, I'm able to use raichu-alola (original form) along with Magneton x Raichu-alola. dsm77773 is this allowed? Lmao we could be using regular Gyarados with its mevo stone along with Glidos hmmm
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First of all, I will start by saying that I don't think Scyther is at the same level as Type:Null as it is currently ranked.
That said, the idea behind placing Scyther, Electabuzz and Magmar in S- is that all three are amazingly versatile, being able to run a plethora of different crosses each one with their different checks and counters. Putting your own post as an example, you say Scyther struggles with defensive Ghost-types (I think you're referring to Scyther x Breloom here. Anyway Scyther learns Knock Off even though it does not always have the room for it), but the most common Scyther variant (not the best one but the most common) is Scyther x Crawdaunt from my own experience, which actually shreds defensive Ghost-types and it is often used to get rid of them thourgh Pursuit. Similarly, you could use Sliggoo x Clefable or Chansey x Decidueye to wall special variants (Magmar x Serperior, Magmar x Nidoking...) but physical (and mixed when talking about Chansey) variants will beat them. And so on (Electabuzz has special and mixed variants too).
Yes.
I would just like to show the epic stall team I built that stops the likes of basically any physical attacker and gives special setup-sweepers big trouble.
Behold, the Volt-Turn Intimidate + Burn Hazard Stacking Hyper Stall Team!
(probably didn't have to be that long lol)
/
GyArAdOs (Gligar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn
Stats: 140/190/129/80/145/86
Just your average pivot GliGod, albeit with a special defensive build. This lets it stomach many random HP Ice that come and either retaliate with an Earthquake or pivot out with U-Turn.
mIlOtIc (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Recover
- Scald
- Tri Attack
Stats: 170/140/154/185/165/60
Type:Null has many sets from revenge killer to tank, but I like pivot the most. Tri Attack can hit many non-resistant mons surprisingly hard, while Scald is to inflict random burns.
hItMoNtOp (Vullaby) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
Stats: 85/115/135/45/140/95
My second Intimidate user and spinner. Dark/Flying is a good typing in this meta since strong Fairy and Ice attackers aren't very common. Synergizes quite well with GliGod to Intimidate any physical attacker to oblivion. Knock Off takes away any Life Orb, Leftovers, and Toxic Orb (if you can predict).
ToXaPeX (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar
Stats: 130/80/125/80/125/50
Bulky Water physical wall. Burns physical attackers, Roars special setup sweepers, sets up Toxic Spikes. That's all there is to it.
ClEfAbLe (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
Stats: 65/95/155/95/155/50
Acts as a safety net to help against any physical or special setup-sweeper getting out of hand. More burns, and also heals status. Hex deals with frail Taunt users.
fLyGoN (Magneton) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpA / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Stats: 80/90/125/150/100/100
Great specially defensive tank. Only has Fire and Fighting weakness, covered by either Gligod or Dusclops. HP Ice is to hit other Gligods.
And, for the honorable mention:
HaRiYaMa (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Whirlwind
Stats: 137/115/145/120/70/85
Great physical bulk, although Special Defense is a bit lacking. Thick Fat synergizes well with Grass typing. You may be asking why I don't have any STAB, but Grass is pretty weak as an offensive typing, not hitting anything very relevant except maybe Onix x Vaporeon.
Some sample replays (will probably add more later):
Battle against a Balanced team (Who) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7crossevolution-581110377
Behold, the Volt-Turn Intimidate + Burn Hazard Stacking Hyper Stall Team!
(probably didn't have to be that long lol)
GyArAdOs (Gligar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn
Stats: 140/190/129/80/145/86
Just your average pivot GliGod, albeit with a special defensive build. This lets it stomach many random HP Ice that come and either retaliate with an Earthquake or pivot out with U-Turn.
mIlOtIc (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Recover
- Scald
- Tri Attack
Stats: 170/140/154/185/165/60
Type:Null has many sets from revenge killer to tank, but I like pivot the most. Tri Attack can hit many non-resistant mons surprisingly hard, while Scald is to inflict random burns.
hItMoNtOp (Vullaby) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
Stats: 85/115/135/45/140/95
My second Intimidate user and spinner. Dark/Flying is a good typing in this meta since strong Fairy and Ice attackers aren't very common. Synergizes quite well with GliGod to Intimidate any physical attacker to oblivion. Knock Off takes away any Life Orb, Leftovers, and Toxic Orb (if you can predict).
ToXaPeX (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar
Stats: 130/80/125/80/125/50
Bulky Water physical wall. Burns physical attackers, Roars special setup sweepers, sets up Toxic Spikes. That's all there is to it.
ClEfAbLe (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
Stats: 65/95/155/95/155/50
Acts as a safety net to help against any physical or special setup-sweeper getting out of hand. More burns, and also heals status. Hex deals with frail Taunt users.
fLyGoN (Magneton) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpA / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Stats: 80/90/125/150/100/100
Great specially defensive tank. Only has Fire and Fighting weakness, covered by either Gligod or Dusclops. HP Ice is to hit other Gligods.
And, for the honorable mention:
HaRiYaMa (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Whirlwind
Stats: 137/115/145/120/70/85
Great physical bulk, although Special Defense is a bit lacking. Thick Fat synergizes well with Grass typing. You may be asking why I don't have any STAB, but Grass is pretty weak as an offensive typing, not hitting anything very relevant except maybe Onix x Vaporeon.
Battle against a Balanced team (Who) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7crossevolution-581110377
GyArAdOs (Gligar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn
mIlOtIc (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Recover
- Scald
- Tri Attack
hItMoNtOp (Vullaby) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
ToXaPeX (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar
ClEfAbLe (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
fLyGoN (Magneton) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpA / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn
mIlOtIc (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Recover
- Scald
- Tri Attack
hItMoNtOp (Vullaby) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
ToXaPeX (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar
ClEfAbLe (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
fLyGoN (Magneton) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpA / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
HaRiYaMa (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Whirlwind
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Whirlwind
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