Metagame Cross Evolution

Delcatty (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD or 252HP / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Bold Nature / Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Nasty Plot / Cosmic Power
- Baton Pass
- Mean Look
Misdreavus ===> Delcatty: Stats:80/80/80/105/105/125 Abilities:Cute Charm/Normalize/Wonder Skin Type:Ghost Weight: 22.6 kg (40 BP)

This is either a really effective gimmick, or a legit set-up, dunno and don't care because it works! Basically, you come in on something you force out, during that same turn(depending who the poke is) you use mean look then follow up with skill swap and watch them either RQ or get swept(sometimes). Seems like an underrated and fun bp set that's been around since gen 6 iirc
 
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IMPORTANT: BEAT UP VOTING
How do we handle Beat Up? Vote here: http://www.strawpoll.me/12295424
Reasoning here:
dsm77773 said:
Simply put, the problem is this set:
sneasel.gif

Breloom (Sneasel) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Beat Up
- Mach Punch / Poison Jab / Icicle Crash
- Swords Dance
Sneasel's Beat Up lead set forces the use of extremely obscure answers such as Safety Goggles Rhydon x Gallade in order to prevent it from steamrolling entire teams from Team Preview. Sneasel can Spore whatever the opposing lead is with the aid of a Focus Sash, set up SD, and start spamming Beat Up, a move that, when boosted, can achieve feats such as OHKOing Gligar x Gyarados and just about anything that doesn't resist it.
There are two reasons why Beat Up, a usually useless move on other tiers, gets the chance to shine in Cross Evolution. Beat Up's BP depends on the base Attack stats of every member of your team, and the average base Attack stat is higher in Cross Evolution than in standard tiers, thus Beat Up is also more powerful. Sneasel x Breloom also has a very high Attack stat (which is used for damage calcs other than the move's BP), and gets STAB and Technician boost on Beat Up.
Sneasel's Beat Up set has very few checks and most of them can be dealt with the appropiate coverage move. Sneasel x Breloom has 150 base Speed, and with +2 Mach Punch it can outpace and beat most other priority users or, alternatively, if they outspeed or outprioritize Sneasel, survive the hit with a Focus Sash and either retaliate with Beat Up (which is likely to OHKO the target if it doesn't resist it) or sleep it with Spore. With the new Gen 7 mechanics, Sneasel is now immune to Prankster as well.
Perhaps the only non-gimmick Sneasel check is Spritzee x Milotic, but Sneasel can sleep it and even use it as set-up fodder while Spritzee relies on Sleep Talk rolls picking Moonblast (33% chance), and pressure it or even take it out with boosted Poison Jabs. In any case if Sneasel is packing Poison Jab, chances are Spritzee will get severly damaged in the process of taking out Sneasel, which combined with its low Speed means that it cannot perform its role as bulky wincon later in the game.
Another potential check is Safety Goggles Rhydon x Gallade. With Lum Berry you step out of gimmick territory but Sneasel can just then use Spore twice. Earthquake and Close Combat can break Sneasel in two hits taking Sash into account and Sneasel might be discouraged of using Beat Up since Rhydon x Gallade both resists Dark and has Justified as an ability, maxing out its Attack after being hit by Beat Up. Rhydon also resists Poison Jab and can take Mach Punch, but will fall to Sneasel if it's packing the rare Icicle Crash.
Perhaps Sneasel's Beat Up set biggest drawback is that it doesn't work well out of the lead position because of Beat Up's mechanics. However, spotting a Sneasel during Team Preview is no guarantee that it will be the opponent's lead. Sneasel has access to different viable sets such as Hitmonchan or Aurorus that work outside of the lead position. Even if the opponent leads with a Sneasel x Breloom, there's no guarantee that is the Beat Up lead set and not the Spore + 3 attacks one.
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Poll will end up in a week and the winning option will be applied. Do nothing is not even an option, this is more of a quickban rather than a suspect. Beat Up is obviously broken, no one has defended it and it is clear that the metagame cannot handle it.
 
Beat Up is clearly only broken with the +90 from Breloom AND when it has STAB (ie on Dark types) AND seemingly only with Technician. I don't think Beat Up is a broken move in general, but rather that there are specific abusers which should be targeted. A ban on Breloom seems to be easiest - Beat Up is obviously not broken on the majority of Pokémon which get it and there is precedent to oppose such a ban (see the DynamicPunch thread which eventually led to a Machoke ban instead); and if Sneasel were banned it would arguably be replaced by other mons, which while less good, might still prove problematic. Carvanha, Pawniard, and especially Murkrow would be the three main culprits, though they would have to evolve into Ambipom for Technician Beat Up.
...I guess I wouldn't be opposed to banning Sneasel, actually, since it's the only thing which gets Beat Up which is actually threatening and not a gimmick.

----

A number of the sets posted so far are not really viable. Remember that this metagame is Ubers based, but realistically its power level is over 9000 even higher than that - just look at MiloticxSpritzee and GligarxGyarados, for example. If you're suggesting a bulky mon which is frailer than Arceus, or an offensive mon which is weaker than said God, it's probably not going to be able to cope.

----

Does anyone have any kind of defensive switch-in to Belly Drum MagmarxSolgaleo? Between Sunsteel Strike, Fire Punch, Earthquake, and Thunder Punch I can't find anything which isn't OHKO'd at +6 other than certain Unaware mons which have no other real niche. There's also Stone Edge, Wild Charge, Crunch, and ZHB for coverage from Solgaleo, and Return, Low Kick or Cross Chop from Magmar itself.

+6 252 Atk Magmar Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null x Milotic: 484-571 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is fully invested 170/154 bulk aka nearly twice as bulky as fully invested Mew and it just DIES. D I E S.

tl;dr ban Type:Null ban Solgaleo prob ban Lunala ban Sneasel or Breloom
also ban stall :J
 
sin(pi) said:
Beat Up is clearly only broken with the +90 from Breloom AND when it has STAB (ie on Dark types) AND seemingly only with Technician. I don't think Beat Up is a broken move in general, but rather that there are specific abusers which should be targeted. A ban on Breloom seems to be easiest - Beat Up is obviously not broken on the majority of Pokémon which get it and there is precedent to oppose such a ban (see the DynamicPunch thread which eventually led to a Machoke ban instead); and if Sneasel were banned it would arguably be replaced by other mons, which while less good, might still prove problematic. Carvanha, Pawniard, and especially Murkrow would be the three main culprits, though they would have to evolve into Ambipom for Technician Beat Up.
...I guess I wouldn't be opposed to banning Sneasel, actually, since it's the only thing which gets Beat Up which is actually threatening and not a gimmick.
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The problem is a combination of Beat Up + Sneasel + Breloom. Tbf banning Beat Up is the easiest thing to do but as you point out it might not be the best. The Dynamic Punch debate is maybe the only situation sort of similar to this one right now, so it's worth taking a look at it.
 
Well, at first I was thinking breloom was the issue, and the only pokemon that Legit made sneasel broke, because it didn't only give +90 in atk w/a fighting typing. As mentioned already, having access to spore and having a pretty decent speed tier puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams from the get-go(I use it as a lead usually).

But then I figured, yesterday on rom, I was testing other technicians pokemons with sneasel. Experimenting if banning breloom will solve the problem. sin(pi), as mentioned, Other dark types with beat up could possibly simply replace it. Which is very true, but the difference is majority of them aren't fast enough to abuse beat up the way sneasel does. While also running spore+Sword Dance ? Except maybe murkrow, 126 ain't too bad I suppose, it could possibly abuse spore+Sd+beat up but I never tried so please don't quote me lol.

But anyways, my "Experiment" was testing hitmontop, Cinccino, Ambipom, and finally Kricketune, all in combination with sneasel. From what I've seen so far, possibly two of these pokes are legit Replacements if breloom gets ban and arguably just as good(but not really imo) and with little cost as well.
The two pokes I'm referring to, are.....


Sneasel ===> Hitmontop: Stats:70/155/115/35/150/150 Abilities:Intimidate/Technician/Steadfast Type:Dark/Ice Weight: 55 kg (80 BP)

I'll start off with hitmontop, because I seriously have my doubts with the next poke I'm going to mention. 70/115/150 Defense w/155/150 offense shouldn't be overlooked so quickly, I certainly didn't even think this would be "good" or even "threaten" when I took my first glance lol. Now obviously it can't use spore to "bypass" some of its counters I.E fairy types, but what it does have over breloom, is actual BULK. This allows it to run Something other than focus sash, something like, say, Razor Fang O_O

Hitmontop (Sneasel) @ Razor Fang / Choice Band / Never-melt-Ice / Black Glasses
Ability: Technician / Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Poison Jab
- Beat Up
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard / Sucker punch / Knock Off / High-jump kick / Filler

Okay, this obviously has a bit of a 4mss-problem, but bare with me please. I listed Intimidate because it actually does helps with setting up swords dance much easier oppose to technician, if you choose that route. Yes, beat up can still be used effectively with or without technician, or at least on hitmontop. With technician and STAB beat up reaches 202bp depending on your team, right? Now, factoring out technician, again, depending on your team, It reaches 135bp factoring only stab. That's still usable imho, and considering razor fang can be used alongside it with an above average attack stat still and an even better speed tier and usable bulk? This may cause issues too, as I was able to flinchhax the bot's SpritzeexMilotic hp down enough so icicle crash can ko it, and proceed to sweep, almost everytime depending on who sneasel faced beforehand. And before you say, "What if it doesn't flinch?" Well, let's just say, if you manage to keep sneasel at full hp......

0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 210-248 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spritzee: 202-238 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is all assuming if you get sds off beforehand and if you managed to keep sneasel at full hp. Not 100% reliable but noteworthy, no? Now, dark/Ice is easily solved by mach punch right? Well, if breloom is banned from being used, who do we look to for revenge killing other than running scarf? Offensively speaking, we'll only have like, uhhh.....well, i don't know atm. But I know we'll be more limited on viable mach punch abusers. Let alone, TECHNICIAN+Mach punch+Stab to go along with it.


Sneasel ===> Cinccino: Stats:75/140/75/60/95/155 Abilities:Cute Charm/Technician/Skill Link Type:Dark/Ice Weight: 29.7 kg (60 BP)

This is where I have my doubts. I won't go into too much detail about cinccino, It's not broken in particular, but it is the fastest beat up abuser you could possibly abuse. But at the cost of absolutely needing sds or CB to be threaten to anything.

So I think, Banning Sneasel might stop some of the bleeding. As I, IMHO, think the other beat up abusers are much more manageable. Except maybe murkrow.

Edit: +2 252 Atk Never-Melt Ice Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spritzee: 243-286 (47.6 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

Edit 2: sorry, for some reason I thought breloomxSneasel was slower than Hitmontop :/
 
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sin(pi) said:
Beat Up is clearly only broken with the +90 from Breloom AND when it has STAB (ie on Dark types) AND seemingly only with Technician. I don't think Beat Up is a broken move in general, but rather that there are specific abusers which should be targeted. A ban on Breloom seems to be easiest - Beat Up is obviously not broken on the majority of Pokémon which get it and there is precedent to oppose such a ban (see the DynamicPunch thread which eventually led to a Machoke ban instead); and if Sneasel were banned it would arguably be replaced by other mons, which while less good, might still prove problematic. Carvanha, Pawniard, and especially Murkrow would be the three main culprits, though they would have to evolve into Ambipom for Technician Beat Up.
...I guess I wouldn't be opposed to banning Sneasel, actually, since it's the only thing which gets Beat Up which is actually threatening and not a gimmick.

----

A number of the sets posted so far are not really viable. Remember that this metagame is Ubers based, but realistically its power level is over 9000 even higher than that - just look at MiloticxSpritzee and GligarxGyarados, for example. If you're suggesting a bulky mon which is frailer than Arceus, or an offensive mon which is weaker than said God, it's probably not going to be able to cope.

----

Does anyone have any kind of defensive switch-in to Belly Drum MagmarxSolgaleo? Between Sunsteel Strike, Fire Punch, Earthquake, and Thunder Punch I can't find anything which isn't OHKO'd at +6 other than certain Unaware mons which have no other real niche. There's also Stone Edge, Wild Charge, Crunch, and ZHB for coverage from Solgaleo, and Return, Low Kick or Cross Chop from Magmar itself.

+6 252 Atk Magmar Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null x Milotic: 484-571 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is fully invested 170/154 bulk aka nearly twice as bulky as fully invested Mew and it just DIES. D I E S.

tl;dr ban Type:Null ban Solgaleo prob ban Lunala ban Sneasel or Breloom
also ban stall :J
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Oh, my switch-in is OnixxVaporeon btw. It's the only poke that I can count on to tank a hit and KO back. Unless, you're running VictreebelxSolgaleo lol
 
Heavyweapons Mann said:
From what I know, Victreebel x Solgaleo is not legal because both are stage 3 evolutions. You would have to run Weepinbell x Solgaleo.
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In fact, to be running Belly Drum it would have to something more like Solgaleo Quiladin. Either way that seems like a non-factor.

I think we should probably ban Beat Up over anything else. While yes it is only broken on Breloom Sneasel, or at least only threatning with that, it's the exact same reason it probably should be banned since it is the one who would least impact the meta. Breloom has use outside of the Beat Up Sneasel set. Sneasel has use outside of the Beat Up Breloom set. Beat Up is the only one who is only really viable with this.

But if Beat Up isn't an option Breloom would be the best option to ban. The massive boost in ATK and reliable sleep are massive advantages over other Technician mons who would mostly only be used for the ability (Aside from Krictune since it can also web).
 
I believe that Beat Up itself is not universally broken. It only works to its full potential as a lead and can be beaten by choosing the right lead as well as counterplay. There are even Justified 'mons that switch in and get to +6 on the first turn and sweep. But Sneasel x Breloom is a top metagame threat that should be banned. It is on this Poke specifically where Beat Up becomes truly terrifying. The combo of higher attack stats in CrossEvo give Beat Up a greater power than it normally would have. Sneasel in particular when Crossed with Breloom gets 185 Atk, Technician, STAB, and a fast Spore. This combined with its good dual STAB combo means that the only Poke that acts as a reliable check is RestTalk Sprit x Milo. Even then it's RNG based. This is why I believe that we shouldn't be suspecting Beat Up, but rather Sneasel x Bre itself (x Hitmontop if it comes down to it). If it is allowed, I would vote to ban Beat Up on Sneasel specifically, as it is the strongest abuser, but if that is not possible or is too complex of a ban, I say yes to a Beat Up ban.

~ Your Friendly Neighbor Smellslikememe
 
lightninging said:
I hate to shit post but stop trying to defend beat up; there's no reason to enact a complex ban or even ban individual pokémon when beat up is clearly the problem. just ban that shit.
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.

Beat up is only a problem on Sneasel! seriously, sneasel is its only true abuser. "B-but there's other beat up abuser" So? Do any other beat up abuser Force you to run absurd checks? Offensively, there's not one poke(with beat up) that is on par with sneasel x Breloom/Hitmontop. And it has a lot to do with being fast, since both sets' speed tier are 150. Speed is very important in this meta, or any meta. Almost as much as having raw strength/power which is something sneasel has too :/
 
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Boomburst said:
So why is beat up so broken since fur coat is not banned!
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If something is forcing you to run random Fur Coat mons on every team you make, there's a problem with it...
Besides, Fur Coat Pokémon can be slept by Spore and used as a set-up fodder with Sash as a backup (not to mention they're passive when compared to, say, Quagsire or Milotic cross-evolutions). The most common Fur Coat abuser, Gligar, can be beaten by Icicle Crash.
 
Boomburst said:
So why is beat up so broken since fur coat is not banned!
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Beat up itself isn't broken. As already mentioned, it's only at its true strength when you're leading with it.

Also Fur coat is p godly, but there aren't many good fur coat user. Not to mention, you need to have Instant Recovery to take full advantage of fur coat too, which is something a lot of pokemons don't have to begin with.
 
Time to make a post about why people should Ban Beat Up.

Firstly, what is a competitive use for beat up outside of this strategy? As far as I know, there is none. But even if there is, the collateral for this is just one or two niche strats. Meanwhile, banning sneasel as a base Pokémon would ban widely used non broken sets such as arourus!sneasel. And it wouldn't be any more complex ban, therefore keeping smogon's policy for simple bans.

In conclusion, Ban Beat Up, not sneasel.
 
But anywho, I've been preparing myself for building stall without Type:null, Milotic, and eventually gligar. Thou, my stall is still demolished by solga singlehandedly(lol), no worries though. Hopefully it'll be gone before even Milotic's suspect.

Chansey (Spritzee) (F) @ Shed Shell / Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock / Toxic

Slot 1: I think this is pretty self-Explanatory. But in case it's not....
Spritzee ===> Chansey: Stats:228/52/60/83/105/43 Abilities:Natural Cure/Serene Grace/Healer Type:Fairy Weight: 10.700000000000003 kg (40 BP)
You could try and take advantage of serene grace + Moonblast. But having a status sponge in natural cure is 90% of the time the superior option. Edit: mostly because to support dusclops better, but other than that, it's basically like having another chansey on the team....just without eviolite and arguably a better typing.

Chandelure (Chansey) @ Shed Shell / Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD or 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def edit: The second spread is to specifically deal with P-Orge + CM better.
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Haze
- Toxic / Stealth Rock
Chansey ===> Chandelure: Stats:250/20/35/85/135/75 Abilities:Flash Fire/Flame Body/Infiltrator Type:Normal Weight: 55.9 kg (80 BP)

Slot 2: I'm using chandelure to specifically counter certain Pokemons that gives stall huge problems too, and act as a pseudo-unaware poke in haze. Yea, you could use Regular Chansey with eviolite, but as I mentioned, chandelure x chansey is used for specific pokes, other than just keeping specially-based pokemons in check. Like, Magmar x Nidoking who could easily fit flare blitz in its move set to plow right through regular chansey, 0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Magmar Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 351-413 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock vs 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Magmar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 260-307 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Now obviously, it does misses eviolite, but nonetheless, it gets the job done.

Clefable (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 244 HP / 120 Def / 144 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Hex / Night Shade / Haze / Filler
Dusclops ===> Clefable: Stats:65/95/155/95/155/50 Abilities:Cute Charm/Magic Guard/Unaware Type:Ghost Weight: 63.1 kg (80 BP)

Slot 3: Probably the glue of my team. If this dies, my team dies lmao. Well, you can potentially still win if clops die, but IMHO, letting clops die or even letting it get statused is almost never a option you want to take. It's extremely important to the teams' success. Edit: If it does get statused, it needs to be heal as soon as you get a chance to.


Vaporeon (Onix) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
Onix ===> Vaporeon: Stats:110/55/170/95/75/80 Abilities:Water Absorb/Hydration Type:Water/Ground Weight: 232.5 kg (120 BP)

Slot 4: Almost like my last Slot which I'll get into soon, this one is sorta of a filler. It's an P-orge check, Hitmonlee x Archen/Cranidos check, and almost hard checks any Offensive steel type (except solgaleo, maybe klang too?). There's multiple good water types you could use for the same reason, but I'm just overly concerned about P-orge + Cm which is something most water types can't even switch in on, let alone check it o.o

Edit: +1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Onix: 181-213 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers My strategy for dealing with P-Ogre is prediction, and utilizing Chansey + vapnix to stall it out. I need to poison it beforehand on the switch (almost everything on this team runs toxic) or switch in onix x vap on Origin pulse/Thunder or Chansey in on a (obvious) cm and poison it yourself. +1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey in Heavy Rain: 331-391 (47 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after leftovers recovery.

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey in Heavy Rain: 331-391 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
As you can see, the standard 252/252 falls a bit short.


Dragonite (Doublade) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 244 HP / 240 Def / 24 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Iron Head
Doublade ===> Dragonite: Stats:89/160/180/75/79/45 Abilities:Inner Focus/Multiscale Type:Steel/Flying Weight: 198 kg (100 BP)

Slot 5: This is my Wincon and Phaser. Ok, most probably are thinking, "Why Dragon tail? When roar is reliable?" Simple. It's a phasing move that keep physical attackers/Sweepers in check while chipping damage, and importantly, IS NOT shut down by taunt. "Lololol but what about fairy types?" I'm 100% sure, aint no fairy type staying in on doublade, especially after a single SDs.

Sidenote: With Sr up, and depending on the situation you may be in, you could totally shuffle around your opponent's pokes and rack up sr damage lol

Stored Power? (Arceus-Dark) @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 244 HP / 16 Def / 4 SpA / 244 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Recover
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp

Slot 6: Defogger and Power trip/Stored power shenanigans check. And mostly because I couldn't find anything better lol. Edit: Koff switch-in too, I suppose
 
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Arcanine (Type: Null) @ Silk Scarf / Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw

Type: Null ===> Arcanine: Stats:130/135/130/125/125/94 Abilities:Intimidate/Flash Fire/Justified Type:Normal Weight: 256.5 kg (120 BP)

Literal upgraded Arc-Normal if we're talking about who does the E-Killer set better. Thou, arceus may be faster, that's actually not really relevant when you're clicking Espeed 90% of the time after SDs. Which is easy to set-up when you consider type:null can hold an item too and has an ability suited for this kind of set(Intimidate is the icing imo). And now, I'm thinking about it, idk wtf I was talking about when I said "predictable* Lmao. This thing is probably more versatile and just as threaten or more so than gligar even defensively, and possibly offensively as well(not as centralizing, but you get my point). It has well over a dozens set that are pretty legit when I gave them the chance. Such as, NullxBibarel w/Simple+Sds, NullxBreloom can effectively abuse both abilities(Poison Heal is more deadly imo with facade+Sub+Spore, but technican is solid too), NullxCarracosta W/SS+Solid Rock, NullxBarbaracle w/SS+Tough Claws, NullxGumshoos hits hard af w/CB+Stakeout or adapt(haven't tried strong jaw tbh, and this Is probably the least appealing set anyways), NullxSharpedo which is honestly slept on(even by me) with SDs +Speed boost+Solid bulk still? You can even pull off NullxGolurk with No Guard+ Dym Punch in a double dance set lol it's ridiculous how many sets this thing can run. Point is, I'm not sure how much pressure this might have on teambuilding. Offensively speaking this might force you to carry a dedicated revenge killer. But then i thought, you can't always assume the opponent is running an offensive variant. As you can not even predict if whether or not it's offensive or defensive variant from team preview. Which IMO, benefits type:bull's versatile, and almost always give the opponent the upper hand 80/20 of the time.

But if you notice, None of the sets I listed can break past X Unaware pokes (Such as Dusclops, Type:null itself etc). But that's not a strong enough argument. So, yes, I'm convinced type:null is ban-worthy. No doubt.
 
The main problem I see with banning just Beat Up is that Sneasel -> Breloom is still pretty busted even without Beat Up. Just because you remove its strongest move doesn't mean you remove its sky high attack, or its high speed, or its access to Spore and in general having an expansive movepool and 2 great abilities. So that leaves us with Breloom and Sneasel in the chopping block. After thinking about it, I think that both of them need to be banned. Here's my reasoning:

Breloom

Breloom gives access to way too much attack, alongside a reasonable speed boost and a good set of abilities. If that weren't enough, it also gives a great movepool to tack onto another Pokemons - Spore is obviously insane on anything with reasonable speed, while access to Fighting STAB to abuse with both abilities is also really nice (one of which is priority, mind you). If we were to just ban Sneasel, we still end up with problems. For example:

Houndour ===> Breloom: Stats:45/150/50/100/50/100

While against offense it isn't that broken due to its lower speed (it can still Mach Punch and Sucker Punch things), the main issue is that this set can also run Technician Beat Up. Alongside access to Taunt, it causes a lot of problems agaisnt Stallteams while still being viable against offense (Scarf Hounloom can work as a lead). On the other side of the coin

Scyther ===> Breloom: Stats:70/200/100/75/80/140

You have something that can tear offensive teams to shreds with its high speed and insane power. You could even slap a scarf on this and go to town on more offensive teams. It can also work well against stallish teams with its insane power and access to recovery.

However, banning Breloom alone doesn't solve anything, as we have another issue:

Sneasel

As mentioned before, Sneasel can still run a very strong Beat Up set with other Technician users such as

Sneasel ===> Hitmontop: Stats:70/155/115/35/150/150

This does basically the same exact thing, although without Spore. Instead, it can use Ice Shard and Icicle Crash to be a power hitter later in the game (or if it didn't have Beat Up). Its also good to note that this could potentially be too good even without Beat Up - you have insane speed and good power, especially with moves like Icicle Spear. While it has bad defensive typing, it has reasonable bulk for something of its speed and power. It might not be completely broken like Sneasel -> Breloom (even without Beat Up), its still a potentially too strong threat.


Its a bit complicated, but I think that banning Breloom and either Beat Up or Sneasel is the way to go with this, and I'm leaning more towards Breloom and Sneasel. Whatever you decide to do, however, I don't think we can go around and just ban one thing unless we go with a complex ban, which I don't think is a good solution.
 
Ban Beat up + technician. (Rather than spore and stat boosts from breloom paired with Sneasel).
You just mentioned hitmontop has technician, and there are others such as Scizor, which boost it dramatically. Seems like Beat up and technician is the problem.

Remember, the Users attack is only 1/6 hits, so it's not about Sneasel's attack stat boosts from others, STAB Beat up with Technician is the issue. Any fast Dark type with technician such as Breloom Greninja can use the high base attack of teammates such as Mega Heracross to improve Beat Up's base power.

Beat up is 5+(X/10) where X is the teammate's current attack stat (252 Evs, adamant nature), this does not include items like choice band, and abilities like Hustle.

So a positive natured max Attack Mega Heracross has 515 Attack, making it 5+ (515/10=5) = 56 base power + technician makes it 84 base power + STAB = 126 base power from 1/6 hits, multiply that by the rest of the team as well as Sneasel itself, and it can do major damage.
 
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OM! said:
Ban Beat up + technician. (Rather than spore and stat boosts from breloom paired with Sneasel).
You just mentioned hitmontop has technician, and there are others such as Scizor, which boost it dramatically. Seems like Beat up and technician is the problem.

Remember, the Users attack is only 1/6 hits, so it's not about Sneasel's attack stat boosts from others, STAB Beat up with Technician is the issue. Any fast Dark type with technician such as Breloom Greninja can use the high base attack of teammates such as Mega Heracross to improve Beat Up's base power.

Beat up is 5+(X/10) where X is the teammate's current attack stat (252 Evs, adamant nature), this does not include items like choice band, and abilities like Hustle.

So a positive natured max Attack Mega Heracross has 515 Attack, making it 5+ (515/10=5) = 56 base power + technician makes it 84 base power + STAB = 126 base power from 1/6 hits, multiply that by the rest of the team as well as Sneasel itself, and it can do major damage.
Click to expand...

I have a few disagreements with this.

1. That doesn't change the fact that Breloom has amazing power, an amazing movepool (hello Spore), and two amazing abilities. Even without Beat Up, Breloom/Sneasel is still incredibly powerful and can abuse Spore to get around all of its offensive checks. And as The Reptile demonstrated above, crosses like Breloom/Scyther are still incredibly overpowered.

2. That doesn't change the fact that Sneasel has amazing power, a good movepool, and amazing speed. This thing is an offensive powerhouse! It's the dream for every hyper offensive team, and as you said yourself, Sneasel can just find another offensive Technician user and break them with its high speed Beat Up.

3. You argue that STAB Beat Up + Technician is the problem, and while I see your perspective, a frailer or slower Beat Up user will not pull off Beat Up anywhere near as well as Sneasel.

4. Avoiding complex bans wherever possible is something I'm in favour of.
 
OM! said:
So a positive natured max Attack Mega Heracross has 515 Attack, making it 5+ (515/10=5) = 56 base power + technician makes it 84 base power + STAB = 126 base power from 1/6 hits, multiply that by the rest of the team as well as Sneasel itself, and it can do major damage.
Click to expand...

Huh? I thought beat up calculated the base stat of the pokemon, not the actual Pokemon's Attack Points. Like, mega-Heracross's base attack is 185, so therefore 5+(185/10)=23.5bp. When you Factor in Technician and STAB, it becomes 46.6bp.

"Base power = (party member's base Attack) / 10 + 5"??? Am I doing it wrong, or is he doing it wrong?
 
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I think it's more conserning to note that no Greninja Breloom isn't a thing, that doesn't exist, and, if it did it would be Water/Fighting, so no STAB there either.

Also mentioning Scizor for a technician donor in thia case is just funny, it is a +0 boost and just ends up lowering your bulk. So, all things considered Cinccino and Hitmontop would be the most viable anwsers.

I think the best case scenario now is banning Sneasel AND Breloom, Sneasel can do this role with other donors even if not as strong and Breloom can make other Pokes broken with it's movepool and stat boosts.

Actually scratch that, Beat Up is still the one who should be banned, yeah the individual parts are broken as well but the main issue, the Beat Up set is the one we are discussing. So instead of complex bans or banning something who is perfectly manageably at the moment, like Sneasel and Breloom, we should get the source of the problem, Beat Up, banned.

Yeah Breloom Sneasel is still pretty good but outside of the Beat Up set it never proved to be overwhelming and we should not forget that this is STILL Milo Sprit and Gyara Glig meta and untill they are banned, I think we can handle Breloom Sneasel in the meta, after they are gone, sure we can do a less urgent ban.
 
Dark Mage Ewan said:
Yeah Breloom Sneasel is still pretty good but outside of the Beat Up set it never proved to be overwhelming we should not forget that this is STILL Milo Sprit and Gyara Glig meta and untill they are banned, I think we can handle Breloom Sneasel in the meta, after they are gone, sure we can do a less urgent ban.
Click to expand...

Ahem,

+2 252 Atk Technician Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 95/185 Physical bulk. This is NullxPex

+2 252 Atk Technician Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null: 204-240 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery NullxMilotic. Probably the most physically bulkiest thing I can find......unless...

+2 252 Atk Technician Sneasel Bite vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gligar: 115-136 (30 - 35.5%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery this is pretty good, until you realize sneasexBre has Spore......

I could show you the marvel scale calc, but then I figured, What's stopping sneasel from continuing to SDs up? Removing Beat up isn't going to stop sneasel from being a top tier Threat. Removing beat up doesn't even lower it chances to streamroll your team if it goes unchecked(I.E. you're still forced into absurd checks). Only difference is that, SneasexBre won't be forced to lead in order to abuse the strongest BP(Beat up) it possibly can. Which IMO, does more good than bad. Cause now SneasexBre can lurk in the back and wait for a more preferred time and situation to come out and Sweep with little cost STILL!!!!. I think SneasexBreloom is far overwhelming regardless of beat up or not.

And the discussion isn't just Beat up, it's the combination of Snease + Breloom + Beat up. Which of the three deserves to be ban more, and it's obvious snease or breloom whom deserve it more.

Edit: Also, what does "It's still SpritxMilo and GyaraxGli meta" supposed to mean? SneaselxBre beats them still without beat up lol as mentioned already.

Edit 2: I'm aware Koff is stronger than Technician bite, I just like spamming bite better :/
 
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I mostly talked from experience and, hey, you proved me wrong, I'm convinced that this is a threat, yeah, I think the best case then is to ban Breloom and Beat Up, Sneasel is really good for offense but I think, from experience, is Breloom that takes it over the edge and of course Beat Up because it is the main problem here.
 
Poll is over...
beat up poll results.png
Surprisingly, there's a tie between "banning Beat Up" and "banning Sneasel". So how will Beat Up Sneasel x Breloom be handled?

Taking precedent from the Dynamic Punch thread, Beat Up is not universally broken rather it has an specific abuser (Sneasel x Breloom), that needs to be handled.
We are looking to ban the broken element, instead of "nerfing" it. This is the same logic with Gligar > Gyarados, Milotic > Spritzee being on the radar. We're not seeking to keep Sneasel in the metagame by nerfing it (taking away its best set) even if it's broken.
Beat Up is not broken, just because Sneasel x Breloom is broken when using the move. If Beat Up was the broken element, there would be more abusers than just Sneasel x Breloom.

With that said, I'm just gonna go ahead.
Sneasel as base Pokémon is now quickbanned from Cross Evolution.
Tagging urkerab to update Cross Evolution on ROM.
 
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