Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

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Latias (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 244 Spd / 252 SAtk / 12 HP
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost
- Calm Mind
Cm recover latias with psychic and hp fire could work well. It sets up on zapdos and rotom while ohkoing everything else after a boost except for blastoise which is 2hko'd and garchomp which is taken advantage of by azelf+kyurem-b. The item choice allows latias to take out blastoise without being poisoned, forcing it to roar. I chose psychic over dragon pulse because terrakion would force latias out every time after volt switch from rotom or zapdos. With psychic, this can't happen and garchomp is forced to outrage to kill latias, leading to team 2 being put in a bad position.
 
Can I see some calcs both offensively and defensively for Latios? I think Latias would be better suited for that role. Quite honestly though, between Scizor, Rotom-W, and Zapdos, I don't think Latios could do much of anything right now. You need some calcs to back this up.

I don't wanna double post, but I was looking at what did the most damage to Zapdos right now that wasn't banded and came across Yache Berry DDance Haxorus. I'll just drop the calcs below for people to analyze:
252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 271-319 (70.75 - 83.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 406-478 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Haxorus: 82-97 (27.89 - 32.99%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 164-194 (55.78 - 65.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Beats 1v1 very slightly (add 1st Zapdos calc to second Zapdos calc)

252+ Atk Haxorus Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 344-406 (106.17 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 319-376 (108.5 - 127.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Beats at +1

252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 248-294 (81.84 - 97.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 372-438 (122.77 - 144.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 124-147 (42.17 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 492-582 (137.43 - 162.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 556-658 (189.11 - 223.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Needs to be at +1

252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 169-201 (46.81 - 55.67%) -- 17.58% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 255-301 (70.63 - 83.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 60-71 (20.4 - 24.14%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Can be Roared out/Toxic'd

252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 131-155 (38.19 - 45.18%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 197-232 (57.43 - 67.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120 Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 195-230 (66.32 - 78.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sadface, only real threat
 
Homeslice said:
Can I see some calcs both offensively and defensively for Latios? I think Latias would be better suited for that role. Quite honestly though, between Scizor, Rotom-W, and Zapdos, I don't think Latios could do much of anything right now. You need some calcs to back this up.
Click to expand...
Now that I think about it, Latias is a better option. I didn't realize that it could 2hko blastoise.
Calcs are below. I don't understand what you mean by lati@s isn't doing anything due to rotom-w, zapdos, and scizor. Calcs below show that rotom-w and zapdos are set-up fodder. Scizor is not doing enough damage to kill latias and is ko'd back by boosted hp fire. Terrakion is killed, and blastoise is 2hko'd while being forced to roar. The only problem is Garchomp, which has to risk using outrage and being revenged to kill latias. If we switch azelf in on garchomp, then it either outrages and gets revenged or doesn't outrage which gives us the opportunity to stay in and 2hko.
There are basically only a few ways that the opposing team can deal with latias. The first is to use blastoise which is a 1 time opportunity and can be weakened by azelf. The second is to try and revenge with garchomp which is risky because it has to lock itself into outrage. Latias is bound to get set up opportunities against rotom-w and zapdos because they are the only pokemon that can check landorus on the opposing team.

0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 66-78 (21.71 - 25.65%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Rotom-W Signal Beam vs. +1 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 101-120 (33.22 - 39.47%) -- 15.23% chance to 3HKO

120+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Latias: 160-190 (52.63 - 62.5%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Scizor: 416-492 (121.28 - 143.44%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 428-506 (132.09 - 156.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Blastoise: 186-220 (51.52 - 60.94%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO
 
Question about Lati@s: Do the sets used have to be viable in the regular metagame, or does that just apply to picks before this one, as this last pick is not subject to potential counterpicks?

Also, I think Sheer Force Conkeldurr could work here? I'll edit this post with calculations when I have time.
 
You can't say those Pokemon are set-up fodder then say it's because of Latias' stats at +1. Proof they aren't set-up fodder:
120+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Latias: 374-444 (123.02 - 146.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Scizor: 280-332 (81.63 - 96.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 226+ SpD Zapdos: 103-123 (26.82 - 32.03%) -- possible 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 226+ SpD Zapdos: 154-183 (40.1 - 47.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 98-116 (32.23 - 38.15%) -- 0.95% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Rotom-W Signal Beam vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 149-178 (49.01 - 58.55%) -- 61.33% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Rotom-W Signal Beam vs. +1 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 101-120 (33.22 - 39.47%) -- 15.23% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 123-145 (40.59 - 47.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(I realized I did Dragon Pulse on all of these, Psychic isn't SE against any so the damage is actually exactly the same)

So really, you can't set-up on Scizor or Rotom-W. The only two mons you can set-up on are a CC locked Terrakion and Zapdos, but you have to set-up so much on Zapdos to the point where you could just send out something else like Garchomp to deal with Latias. Your calcs didn't show what you needed, where you need to set up at, so I just can't choose Latias. Sorry.

I really would like people to think about DDance Haxorus, especially with Yache Berry, as it looked to me that other than Banded Tyranitar, Landorus-T, SD Gliscor, and Banded Conkeldurr, it was the only thing capable of dealing with Zapdos and actually being able to threaten something else.
 
Homeslice said:
I really would like people to think about DDance Haxorus, especially with Yache Berry, as it looked to me that other than Banded Tyranitar, Landorus-T, SD Gliscor, and Banded Conkeldurr, it was the only thing capable of dealing with Zapdos and actually being able to threaten something else.
Click to expand...

or instead of haxorus which loses to scizor and can't set up on 2/3rds the team you could vote for my scrafty which 6-0's team 2

just something to think about
 
Homeslice said:
You can't say those Pokemon are set-up fodder then say it's because of Latias' stats at +1. Proof they aren't set-up fodder:
120+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Latias: 374-444 (123.02 - 146.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Scizor: 280-332 (81.63 - 96.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 226+ SpD Zapdos: 103-123 (26.82 - 32.03%) -- possible 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 226+ SpD Zapdos: 154-183 (40.1 - 47.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 98-116 (32.23 - 38.15%) -- 0.95% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Rotom-W Signal Beam vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 149-178 (49.01 - 58.55%) -- 61.33% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Rotom-W Signal Beam vs. +1 12 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 101-120 (33.22 - 39.47%) -- 15.23% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 123-145 (40.59 - 47.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(I realized I did Dragon Pulse on all of these, Psychic isn't SE against any so the damage is actually exactly the same)

So really, you can't set-up on Scizor or Rotom-W. The only two mons you can set-up on are a CC locked Terrakion and Zapdos, but you have to set-up so much on Zapdos to the point where you could just send out something else like Garchomp to deal with Latias. Your calcs didn't show what you needed, where you need to set up at, so I just can't choose Latias. Sorry.

I really would like people to think about DDance Haxorus, especially with Yache Berry, as it looked to me that other than Banded Tyranitar, Landorus-T, SD Gliscor, and Banded Conkeldurr, it was the only thing capable of dealing with Zapdos and actually being able to threaten something else.
Click to expand...
Your calcs don't mean anything. I never said latias could set up on scizor. I thought that was obvious. It can set up on rotom-w. Why can't I include a calm mind boost? That's what I mean by setting up on it. I am going to use calm mind on rotom-w, which means that it is never going to be signal beaming me at +0. Latias won't be switching in on rotom. Your logic makes no sense. If rotom-w is doing 30% to latias after a cm, I can continually use recover while setting up cms. What do your calcs at +1 even mean? I'm not attacking rotom or zapdos, but setting up on them continually while recovering off damage when in scizor's bullet punch range. Saying that I'm setting up too much that garchomp can kill me doesn't make sense at all. In fact, Garchomp can only kill me before I set up enough. The more calm minds I get vs rotom or zapdos, the more hp I have left because I can recover after each hit which gets progressively weaker.
Since you don't understand the concept of calm mind, I will write it out for you.
Latias uses CM
Rotom does 33-39%
Latias uses CM
Rotom does 25-30%
Latias recovers
Rotom does 25-30%
As you can see, Latias can set up on rotom. Because of this fact, Rotom should actually volt switch after the first cm, but latias can get around that by using recover immediately after.
 
Alright, so here we go. I'm sorry for the lack of feedback by me, but RL is really messy atm so I didn't get the chance to focus on the submissions properly. At a first sight, I'd say this is a beautiful slate, so many entries have their merits, and noone is overwhelmingly better than the others. Let's start the (last) voting phase for pokemon 6, team 1!


As usual, to vote send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; both the title and the body of the message should contain "CtP: your preference" where your preference is selected from the previous list. You'll have roughly 48 hours from this post to express your vote.

Go!
 
I don't want to go into details now, but Raikou is by far the best pick team 1 can make. Most threatening Pokemon after it sets up and most threatening before it sets up, while also getting easy setup chances against half of team 2 (Blastoise, Rotom-W, and Zapdos). What more could you ask?
 
Yeah, sorry for being so sloppy. Someone pointed out that both Salamence and Ludicolo are illegal entries since they still have slashes. Any vote for them will not be counted, if you already vote one of those two, please send another PM changing your vote to something else. Thank you!
 
Argh! I thought weather slashes were legal. Oh well, I'll rethink my vote, though I am tempted to go for the scrafty set...
 
I think you can argue that Hydro Pump/Surf is a weather-based slash, as the damage output sometimes changes the nature of what the "right" choice is under rain. For instance, Ice Beam on Kingdra becomes nearly useless if using Hydro Pump under rain, whereas it's crucial to have if outside of rain.

That said, this is the last pick of the team... so I don't know why we still have slashes based on possible weather :p
 
You can argue whatever you want, this is linked in the OP and failure to read / understand it properly is submitter's fault.

ganj4lF said:
The complete list of allowed slashes follows:

  • Thunder / Thunderbolt
  • Blizzard / Ice Beam
  • Hurricane / Air Slash
  • Solarbeam / Energy Ball (or Giga Drain if available)
Click to expand...

The funny thing is, even with Hydro Pump / Surf in that list, the submission would be illegal anyway since you already have every piece of information avaliable (remember, this is the last pick!) so you're picking one of the two moves slashed depending on what precisely...? Weather isn't in play so either bring it yourself and pick the "weather slash" or do otherwise and pick the "weather neutral slash".

Sorry for being polemic without any real use but it always upsets me how even at the end of a so long project people still miss basic rules of it. I was in a hurry and didn't double check, right, but...yeah, you got the point. Sorry again.
 
It's good to see that people were active for this late vote.

  • Latias: 1
  • Starmie: 1
  • Scrafty: 4

    [*]Raikou: 9
  • Total Votes: 15

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And the final member is
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Raikou @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 58 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid nature
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch

Okay so that is it for the suggestion and voting process. Now all that is left is for Lavos and alexwolf to organize a time where they can play their Best Of 3 matches. In the mean time, feel free to discuss the project, what went right/wrong, your predictions for the match, etc.
 
and just to clarify, i'll be representing team 1, alexwolf will be representing team 2

we will post a scheduled time here pretty soon

attencione: we are playing TOMORROW (TUESDAY) AT 3 PM EST probably on showdown

be there or be square
 
Wow, this was fast, I should be able to be there for the match (EST is UTC-5, right?). I guess I'll comment abhout the whole process after seeing the match, since the last time I was caught by surprise by the results. While we wait, I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to the thread, and a particular thanks to Melee Mewtwo for its huge help in handling votes (while still being a phenomenal contributor). See you tomorrow for the grand final!
 
I can't wait to see how this match goes. I'll try to get my comments and predictions in now before it starts.

Fortunately, there were a lot of things that I think went right with only a handful of things that went wrong. So, since it's easier to name what I think was an error I'll just mention those. I think a big mistake for Team 1 was choosing Lando-I as the first Pokemon. There's nothing wrong with the Pokemon itself, it's just that we prevented ourselves from choosing a Lando-T latter in the project despite the fact that there were many other excellent options to choose from at that time. After that, I want to say Jirachi was a mistake as well. The whole point behind Slowbro was to get something that wouldn't throw free turns in Team 2's face while freeing up the third choice for something offensive. Instead, we picked something that was still pretty weak and easy to exploit and I think it'll serve as an excellent way to take back lost momentum. In spite of these two defensive picks, Team 1 seems quite vulnerable to Scizor and Rotom while Terrakion and Garchomp are still going to make them feel very uncomfortable. (only Rock resist being easily exploited while Garchomp forces a kill on Azelf and lures out Kyu-B/Jirachi to take advantage of) The weaker hazards game I think will hurt Team 1 quite a bit as well. As for Team 2, the big (and probably only) mistake was not having Roar on Zapdos (over HP Ice) as it meant we had a special wall that couldn't handle the special setup sweepers. This opened up a whole that had to be loosely covered and which Team 1 will try to take advantage of with Raikou.

Personally, I think Team 2 is going to win this match. Terrakion and Garchomp are pretty much forcing mechanic play while Zappy+Rotom+Scizor is covering all of Team 1's offensive threats and denying them momentum with their Volt-Turn shenanigans. The only real soft point is Blastoise but even he can Roar out any attempts to setup with Raikou and can even be sacked once he's done his job of keeping SR away. Team 1 is going to have to find as many free turns to bring Raikou in as possible if it wants a shot at victory, however the pivoting to Scizor will really pester it. Fortunately, Volt Switch lets Raikou attempt to wear down Scizor itself (preventing the Bug from mashing the U-Turn button when faced one-on-one) but Quick Attack is still going to tear 37% min away from it's HP which means that, with SR factored in, Raikou is unlikely to survive the second meeting with Scizor. It's going to be tricky prediction based match until the dog goes down but once it does, Team 2 should be alright. Course, I'm pretty biased towards Team 2 and have been this entire project.
 
first match was bullshit he missed an early SE then refused to restart so i won easily

we're just gonna do 3 more games after he eats so expect the next one up in around 10-15 mins
 
You forgot to save the replay, and that room will expire anytime now. :/

Please do that asap
 
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