Couldn't a Special set work for Electivire?

tdub13

I was looking through the Analysis on Electivire and saw there wasn't a special attacking set for it. Then I looked at it's Serebii dex and saw that his special attack has a base 95, which isn't that bad. So, isn't a special set viable for him?

Electivire@Life Orb/Choice Specs
Modest
4 Hp/252 Satk/252 Spd
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Grass
-Psychic
-Focus Blast

Life Orb Damage Calcs

Swampert:
HP Grass 70 does to 96.53% - 113.61% with Max Hp and neutral nature.
HP Grass 70 does 68.81% - 80.94% to Max Hp, Max Spdef with a boosting nature.

Donphan:
HP Grass 70 does 69.79% - 82.29% with Max Hp and neutral nature.
HP Grass 70 does 45.83% - 53.91% to Max Hp, Max Spdef with a bossting nature.

Skarmory:
Thunderbolt does 144.61% - 170.06% with Max Hp and neutral nature.
Thunderbolt does 97.90% - 114.97% to Max Hp, Max Spdef with a boosting nature.

Rhyperior:
HP Grass 70 does 132.03% - 155.30% to Max Hp, neutral nature.
66.13% - 77.65% with Sandstorm in play.
HP Grass 70 does 85.02% - 100.00% to Max Hp, Max Spdef, with a boosting nature.
42.40% - 50.00% with Sandstorm in play.

Bronzong:
Thunderbolt does 35.21% - 41.12% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, and a boosting nature.

Hippowdon:
HP Grass 70 does 55.48% - 65.24% with Max Hp with neutral nature.
HP Grass 70 does 37.86% - 44.52% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, with boosting nature.

Steelix:
Focus Blast does 121.47% - 142.94% with Max Hp and neutral nature.
Focus Blast does 80.79% - 94.92% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, with boosting nature.

Forretress:
Thunderbolt does 76.84% - 90.40% with Max Hp and neutral nature.
Thunderbolt does 50.28% - 59.04% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, with boosting nature.

Dusknoir:
Thunderbolt does 47.62% - 56.12% with 252 Hp with nuetral nature.
Thunderbolt does 36.39% - 42.86% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, with boosting nature.

Weezing:
Thunderbolt does 72.46% - 85.03% with Max Hp and neutral nature.
Thunderbolt does 48.80% - 57.49% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, with boosting nature.

Cresselia:
Thunderbolt does 32.66% - 38.51% with Max Hp and neutral nature.
Thunderbolt does 29.73% - 35.14% with Max Hp and boosting nature.
Thunderbolt does 27.03% - 31.76% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, and neutral nature.
Thunderbolt does 24.77% - 29.05% with Max Hp, Max Spdef, with boosting nature.

For Approximate Choice Specs damage calculations multiply the damage by 1.15.
 
I wouldn't use any choice item on electivire, because his purpose is to hit as many types as possible for super effective damage.

I think this set is inferior to his Cross Chop, Ice Punch, Thunderbolt, and Earthquake set, although admittely I would have to compare damage damaculations (which I really don't feel like running at the moment, sorry.)

Remember, the point of surprise sets is to take out a specific wall. In electivire's case, the only thing that walls the above set is Cresselia, but a surprise set won't work on electivire because you don't want to give up your amazing type coverage for an inferior special attack set. Of course damage calculations will either prove me right or make me look like a complete idiot, but I really can't run them right now because it's 10:30 at night where I live.
 
To be fair, Electivire generally runs a mixed sweeper set anyway (there is very little justification for using T-Punch over T-Bolt), so a pure special sweeper set doesn't really offer too much. You're not gonna have a huge element of surprise factor as people know Electivire packs a special attack.

Focus Blast and Psychic is pretty poor too. He aint Alakazam, so Psychics meh power and poor coverage isn't gonna see much use, and Focus Blast will let you down time and time again. At least use Cross Chop over Focus Blast.

However, unique movesets can usually bag a surprise KO. Saying that, the standard Electivire can usually bag 2 or 3 KO's...
 
Even with a Special set, I would still use Cross Chop instead of Focus Blast, mainly to hit Blissey, and the accuracy/Critical chance is better. Just use enough EVs to guarantee an 2HKO on Blissey; with no EVs (and 31IV) you do 50% minimum with Life Orb so you don't need a large EV investment. It's guaranteed with Stealth Rock or Sandstorm.

With 40Atk you do 52% (and still get 280 speed if you wanted that). Not a 2HKO, but almost guaranteed; Blissey has 6HP left after 2 Cross Chops if you get minimum both times.
 
If you have all special, consider Electabuzz. It loses 10 base HP and Defense, but gains 10 base Speed.

/edit: Actually, scratch that, pure Special Electabuzz is probably inferior to Manectric (thanks to Flamethrower) and Raikou (thanks to Calm Mind and better stats everywhere).
 
flashfox said:
Doesn't Electivire learn flamethrower as well?
Click to expand...

Your right, he does! How did I miss that? Everyone else, thanks for your input, maybe a set like this?

Electivire@Life Orb
Mild/Rash
4 Atk/252 Satk/252 Spd
-Thunderbolt
-Cross Chop
-Flamethrower
-Hidden Power Grass

Cross Chop does 57.28% - 67.37% to Max Hp, Max Def Blissey with boosting nature.
 
Edit: I see you already listened to the other recommendations. =) But that's the exact set I was going to suggest. Also Expert Belt is certainly viable for a pokemon with such great type coverage.
 
Don't ever bother with Electabuzz, it doesn't even have Motor Drive. :(

I like the idea of this but I can't help but think I'm missing something important. Mostly because I'm sceptical by nature.
 
Honestly, I never really liked running Thunderbolt on Electivire, since it forces you to split EVs, and there isn't anything else Thunderbolt will be hitting for hard damage anyways, besides Skarmory and Weezing, which Thunderpunch 2HKOes the former with EB Thunderpunch (I run Life Orb), while the latter you can scout for and get rid of easily. Being able to hit stuff like Milotic / Dusknoir harder is always a plus

I was thinking about a Choice Specs Electivire, it isn't a bad option. I would use:

Electivire @ Choice Specs
Trait: Motor Drive
Nature: Mild
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
~Thunderbolt
~Hidden Power [Grass]
~Cross Chop
~Flamethrower

This set will more than likely provide you good coverage
 
Purely special seems to be a big waste, however a balanced special set could work.

Cross Chop
Earthquake
Thunderbolt
HP Water/Flamethrower

Has its merits in still hitting hard physically, still has TB for Skarm but also has another special move for Donphan or Forretress. Obviously this set likes Dusknoir and Cresselia even less than usual much.

In short, there is no point in making Electivire more special based unless you also make it capable with hurting bulky grounds much better than it already does, or bulky grassers.

Another possibility is Low Kick over CC (assuming it works the same as Grass Knot), but only obviously if it does more damange than CC vs Swampert/Donphan/Hippowdon.
 
I'd think about dropping EQ if you're going for a mixed set like the above (a real mixed set, not "standard set with Bolt instead of Punch" mixed), especially if you go ahead and use Flamethrower. Ground and Fighting are largely redundant in type effectiveness. Earthquake is mostly for countering Electrics, however: The most common is other Electivire anyway, Magnezone is also weak to Cross Chop and Flamethrower (but not OHKOed at full Health like EQ would do), and Zapdos is immune to EQ and not resistant to Electric. Dropping Cross Chop isn't really an option, the Blissey coverage alone is one of Electivire's biggest perks as a physical Electric.

In that freed move slot, you could then use Ice Punch for Grounds and the massive type coverage. HP Grass is another option, but you'd probably want to use Tpunch in that case since wasting your Attack stat solely on Cross Chop is silly.

i.e.
Cross Chop
Ice Punch [HP Grass]
Thunderbolt [Tpunch]
Flamethrower

However, this isn't all that much different than a purely physical moveset that just uses Tpunch and Fire Punch [over EQ]. Flamethrower is better compared to Fire Punch than Tpunch is compared to Tbolt, though, so it gives some credence to the standard "mixed" set that typically has Tbolt as its only Special attack.
 
What additional coverage comes by choosing Flamethrower?

Ice Punch on the Standard hits the Grass types, and Dragons to boot.

Thunderbolt hits Skarmory harder.

Earthquake hits Metagross harder.

Bronzong, Forretress, Scizor, and a few other oddballs are the only ones that warrant Flamethrower, whereas Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite are OHKO'd by Ice Punch. The latter group is far more common.

From a pure coverage standpoint:
Fire is SE against:
Bug
Grass
Steel
Ice

Cross Chop hits Ice and Steel types (Skarmory eats Thunderbolt). Earthquake hits Steel types as well. Ice Punch hits the grassers. Bug is the only type that Fire hits and Ice/Fighting don't. But losing Ice Punch means a hard time against dragons.

Consider now that we only have a free slot, since we need:

Cross Chop for Blissey.
Ice Punch for Dragons.
Thunder(Punch/Bolt) for STAB and Skarmory, Gyarados, etc.
?

Hidden Power: Grass is a nice surprise for Swampert, but keep in mind that all the types Grass hits for SE are already covered by Electric (Water), Fighting (Rock), and Ice (Ground). Earthquake as the 4th move improves Rock coverage, while adding a lot more coverage (Fire, Poison, Electric, types you don't hit for SE without Earthquake).

So, HP: Grass hits Swampert. Flamethrower hits Bronzong and the Bug types, and Earthquake hits everything else Fight/Ice/Electric don't cover for, together with those 3, at least neutral.

I happen to like new ideas and innovation a LOT, but Electivire seems to be pretty much tied to the Standard moveset if you want maximum effectiveness. Of the other options I think only HP: Grass is viable, if only because Swampert is a common 'Vire switch-in, but I don't think Fire packs a better punch than Ground.
 
Well if we can come up with a set that isn't eaten for breakfast by Donphan or Tangrowth thats great. Ice Punch doesn't do all that much to them. After all Tangrowth survives 3 DDed Gyara Ice Fangs, so unboosted Ice Punches aren't going to help much against something that can sleep or paralyse you.
 
TSPhoenix said:
Well if we can come up with a set that isn't eaten for breakfast by Donphan or Tangrowth thats great. Ice Punch doesn't do all that much to them. After all Tangrowth survives 3 DDed Gyara Ice Fangs, so unboosted Ice Punches aren't going to help much against something that can sleep or paralyse you.
Click to expand...

That's true. But for Donphan and Tangrowth coverage you are going with HP Grass/Ice and Flamethrower. Cross Chop for Blissey, and an Electric move, I guess? Unless your HP is Ice, you lose dragon coverage, and by losing Earthquake you lose a ton of coverage as well. Of course, we have to analyze in context, and a Hp/Thrower/Thunder[sth]/Chop 'Vire is unexpected and will probably kill a few things. That's good. However, once you're figured out, a LOT more things now threaten you.
 
I think the point was that Electivire can be a dangerous attacking threat and, unless the opponent is very well insulated against it (say, packing both Cresselia and Dusknoir), it is liable to nab some kills in a battle, not that Electivire is guaranteed to rip half your team to shreds.

Anyway, Fighting and Ground are redundant enough that, if you're looking to dump one off for a Fire move, you should dump Cross Chop or Earthquake. The redundancy in type effectiveness is part of why Fighters usually don't also carry EQ (the other reason is STAB). Assuming Blissey is an annoying whore that we would all like to club over the head, then we'll want to keep CC and drop EQ. (The other attacks are Ice Punch + Tbolt/Tpunch).

Fire Punch is crap, but I think Flamethrower is a good reason to go with a mixed set (Tbolt/FT). Flamethrower will hit Metagross/Jirachi as hard as EQ (Fire Punch is a straight 25% drop in damage) so that isn't a problem. You'll OHKO most Forretress, Steelix and Tangrowth no longer rape your ass and Jirachi won't give you trouble with Reflect. Bronzong is a little less of a pain and it helps with Heracross.

The biggest draw of EQ is mostly just for other Electrics which, as I already pointed out, other Electivire is really the only big deal there. The only other notable pokemon where you'd want EQ is Heatran, where you lose the reliable OHKO. (Magnezone too, but FT is 100% accurate on it unlike CC.) The Fire attack covers Metagross and Jirachi, while Cross Chop hits 2x just about everything else Earthquake did and is more important because it OHKOs Blissey and T-Tar.

Also, HP Grass doesn't hit a damn thing but Swampert. Ice Punch already hits most other Grounds (though HP will hit Hippo/Donphan better). Flamethrower not only covers multiple problem pokemon, but it also combines with Cross Chop to cover almost everything EQ did (assuming you're replacing EQ with it).
 
StarWizard said:
That's true. But for Donphan and Tangrowth coverage you are going with HP Grass/Ice and Flamethrower. Cross Chop for Blissey, and an Electric move, I guess? Unless your HP is Ice, you lose dragon coverage, and by losing Earthquake you lose a ton of coverage as well. Of course, we have to analyze in context, and a Hp/Thrower/Thunder[sth]/Chop 'Vire is unexpected and will probably kill a few things. That's good. However, once you're figured out, a LOT more things now threaten you.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean a Vire that counters Donphan/Tangrowth at the cost of all its previous strengths, just one that fares better against is previous counters without losing too much strength.

Personally I think 2 physical and 2 special is just right, avoids wasting the attack too much, but also avoids getting walled by pokes who laugh at your physical attacks and couldn't care less about Thunderbolt.

Putting together what everyone has said it seems that this would be a solid mixed vire set. In fact I think I might even try running it and see how it goes.

Cross Chop
Ice Punch
Thunderbolt
Flamethrower

For reference this not only still manages to hit 10 types super effective. No single type resists Fight+Ice so the physical side should typically hit at least neutral. If it weren't for STAB, Psychic could go over TB to provide the same ability to be resisted by few, but as it is there are very few reasons Electivire would need this that I can think of, and STAB really helps.
 
If you really want a spec. set on electivire

ELectivire@life orb
{mild}
-Cross chop(pwn bliss)
-thunder bolt
-HP grass
-flamethrower
 
My personal preference for this new Mixvire would be

Thunderpunch
HP Ice
Flamethrower
Cross Chop

It really hurts the dragons and can break walls nicely.
 
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