Clash of the "Ubers" [Latios Warstory + Discussion]

[RaikouLover]

Hello Smogon.. I'm back with yet ANOTHER warstory. However, this one is here to not only entertain... but to promote discussion.

I took a break from standard matches when hearing about the Eon tournament and all the recent talk about Lati@ being standard. So, I decided to test it out through a series of battles, with a standard set. The battle was with a good friend, wayff, which was about my 10th or so battle using latios in a standard match.

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Species Clause, Timed Battle

My Team:

Wayff13's Team

Both Teams are in order of appearance!

Erik-Testing sent out Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ?).
wayff13 sent out Gallade (lvl 100 Gallade ?).

I lead with my favorite bug... and he leads with Gallade. From experience, Gallade's that lead are probably choiced, so I protect to see what he does.

wayff13 switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Yanmega used Protect.
Yanmega protected itself!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
A switch to Suicune. Fearing a set up, I switch to my Suicune counter.

Erik-Testing switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Suicune used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 32% of its health.
---
Celebi shrugs off unboosted Ice Beams well. But the important thing is to not let this beast set up. It's early, so I grass knot to keep the pressure on.

wayff13 switched in Skarmory (lvl 100 Skarmory ?).
Celebi used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
Skarmory lost 10% of its health.
Skarmory's leftovers restored its health a little!
Skarmory restored 6% of its health.
---
Skarm... I actually didn't notice this until later in the battle, but I highlighted this for later significance. I switch to heatran to force out Skarm.

Erik-Testing switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
wayff13 switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
---
A pre-emptive Suicune switch. He knows I want Celebi, so I stay in, expecting a switch to skarm.

Heatran used Lava Plume.
It's not very effective...
Suicune lost 15% of its health.
Suicune used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 4% of its health.
---

Heatran used Lava Plume.
It's not very effective...
Suicune lost 15% of its health.
Suicune used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 4% of its health.
---
Erik-Testing: lol
wayff13: well?
Wow, I guess we're playing chicken :-D. Determined to win, I stay in. Suicune's Surf is crappy anyway.

Heatran used Lava Plume.
It's not very effective...
Suicune lost 17% of its health.
Suicune used Surf.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 54% of its health.
---
Ok, he knows I'm going to switch now, so I bring in bulky pert to stop this guessing game and get some rocks out.

Erik-Testing switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Suicune used Ice Beam.
Swampert lost 19% of its health.
---
wayff13 switched in Latios (lvl 100 Latios ?).
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
---
I was NOT expecting him to have Latios as well! This was a friendly match because I was helping my friend test a team.. I actually had no idea that there would be TWO latios in this match. I stay in, to dent it and determine its set.

Latios used Calm Mind.
Latios's special attack was raised.
Latios's special defence was raised.
Swampert used Avalanche.
It's super effective!
Latios lost 40% of its health.
---
Great. Another Latios, but the CM version. I switch to my phazer, hoping it can survive an assault.

Erik-Testing switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Latios used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
Celebi lost 4% of its health.
---
Latios used Dragon Pulse.
Celebi lost 59% of its health.
Celebi used Perish Song.
Both Pokemon will faint in 3 turn(s)
Latios's leftovers restored its health a little!
Latios restored 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Latios's perish count fell to 3!
Celebi's perish count fell to 3!
---
Yikes, that's more than I thought! Celebi is down to about 20% health, and I don't think anything else can take the hit, so I sacrifice him. Thankfully, his death is not in vain!

Latios used Dragon Pulse.
Celebi lost 62% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Celebi fainted.
Latios's perish count fell to 2!
---

*5-6*

First blood. I bring in Yanmega, to advance the perish count and scare him away.

Erik-Testing switched in Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ?).
Yanmega used Protect.
Yanmega protected itself!
Latios used Dragon Pulse.
Yanmega protected itself!
Latios's perish count fell to 1!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Latios isn't going to stay in, so I hypnosis the incoming counter.

wayff13 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Yanmega used Hypnosis.
Heatran fell asleep!
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
I noticed this one... this is obviously a rest-talk heatran, the perfect yanmega counter. And the perfect set-up bait for MY Latios.

Erik-Testing switched in Latios (lvl 100 Latios ?).
wayff13 switched in Skarmory (lvl 100 Skarmory ?).
Pointed stones dug into Skarmory.
Skarmory lost 12% of its health.
---
Dammit, Skarm rears it's ugly head. I bring in the steel killer to open the floor for Latios sweep.

Erik-Testing switched in Magnezone (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Skarmory used Whirlwind.
Erik-Testing switched in Latios (lvl 100 Latios ?).
---
Meh, he's going to stop whirlwinding eventually. There is nothing on the field so I'm in good shape.

wayff13: O_O
Erik-Testing switched in Magnezone (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Skarmory used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---
Yes!

Magnezone used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Skarmory lost 129% of its health.
wayff13's Skarmory fainted.
---

*5-5*

I T-bolted just to make sure Skarmory didn't stay in. Then, I realized it had leftovers... Either way, Skarm is dead. Latios should be in the clear.

wayff13 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Erik-Testing switched in Latios (lvl 100 Latios ?).
Heatran is fast asleep!
Heatran used Sleep Talk.
Latios makes ground moves miss with Levitate!
Heatran used Earth Power.
Heatran's attack missed!
---
Go Latios! Dragon Dance!

wayff13 switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Suicune.
Suicune lost 12% of its health.
Latios used Dragon Dance.
Latios's attack was raised.
Latios's speed was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Suicune is at 78% when switching in. I figure I can 2HKO it, and easily survive the Ice Beam and finish the game.

Latios used Dragon Claw.
Suicune lost 39% of its health.
Latios lost 10% of its health.
Suicune used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Latios lost 45% of its health.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
For some reason, I was surprised that Ice Beam did so much damage. Take note people! That is a 2HKO with Stealth Rock.. and Suicune doesnt even have the usual 266 Special Attack for Garchomp.

Anyway, I'm in a difficult position. I could have did maximum damage or minimum damage. If max, I will fall short of 2HKO, and Life Orb + another Ice Beam will kill me. I searched google for damage calculators, but I was running out of time! So... here goes nothing...

Erik-Testing: dammit
wayff13: oh shi-
Erik-Testing: damage calcs
Erik-Testing: now
wayff13: for?
Erik-Testing: i have to see if thats closer to max or min damage
wayff13: k
wayff13: I think metakid's has an error
Erik-Testing: i kno
wayff13: Or I've been hearing people say that
wayff13: By the way, which calculator are you using?
Erik-Testing: should i go for it
wayff13: if you want
wayff13: just hurry
wayff13: you'll die
Erik-Testing: if i succed, i can sweep

Latios used Dragon Claw.
Suicune lost 40% of its health.
wayff13's Suicune fainted.
Latios lost 10% of its health.
---

*5-4*

Suicune is gone... and I see Latios sweep. Until....

wayff13 switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
Pointed stones dug into Mamoswine.
Mamoswine lost 12% of its health.

Shit... not what I wanted to see. I'm at 25% health.. and can't recover in the face of an Ice Shard. I switch to tran to take the Ice Shard. Hopefully I can get Latios back in to get the juice back.

Erik-Testing switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Heatran was hurt by Spikes!
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Mamoswine used Curse.
Mamoswine's speed was lowered.
Mamoswine's attack was raised.
Mamoswine's defence was raised.
---
Curseswine... Heatran is faster now, so I can OHKO with Lava Plume.

wayff13 switched in Gallade (lvl 100 Gallade ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gallade.
Gallade lost 6% of its health.
Heatran used Lava Plume.
Gallade lost 45% of its health.
---
Gallade is back in, so I switch to my fighting counter, who has been kind of forgettin in this match.

Erik-Testing switched in Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ?).
Gallade used Close Combat.
It's not very effective...
Yanmega lost 27% of its health.
Gallade's defence was lowered.
Gallade's special defence was lowered.
---
Definately banded... Thank god for the 4Xs resist. Heatran is coming in to take Yanmega, so I'll switch to Latios to heal.

Erik-Testing switched in Latios (lvl 100 Latios ?).
wayff13 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
---
wayff13 switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
Pointed stones dug into Mamoswine.
Mamoswine lost 12% of its health.
Latios used Recover.
Latios restored 50% of its health.
Mamoswine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mamoswine restored 6% of its health.
---
Yup, I'm at 84% now, and in good shape. Now I have to get out of here and deal with Swine. Swampert seems the best bet to handle em.

Erik-Testing switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Swampert was hurt by Spikes!
Swampert lost 12% of its health.
Mamoswine used Curse.
Mamoswine's speed was lowered.
Mamoswine's attack was raised.
Mamoswine's defence was raised.
---
I predict the Latios switch in, so I'll smack him with avalanche on the switch. I guess Ice Beam is better for Swampert, but Avalance nails chomps ;-).

Mamoswine used Curse.
Mamoswine's speed was lowered.
Mamoswine's attack was raised.
Mamoswine's defence was raised.
Swampert used Avalanche.
Mamoswine lost 7% of its health.
---
Nope, no switch. Hydro Pump should leave him limping. But at +2, this is gonna hurt..

Swampert used Hydro Pump.
It's super effective!
Mamoswine lost 86% of its health.
Mamoswine used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 83% of its health.
---
Swine has 7%, So I EQ to finish him, But...

wayff13 switched in Latios (lvl 100 Latios ?).
Pointed stones dug into Latios.
Latios lost 12% of its health.
Latios makes ground moves miss with Levitate!
Swampert used Earthquake.
Swampert's attack missed!
---
Oh god... Latios again. I can't risk giving him 2 Calm Minds, as Avalanche will come short of a KO. I switch to my closest thing to a "counter."

Erik-Testing switched in Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ?).
Latios used Calm Mind.
Latios's special attack was raised.
Latios's special defence was raised.
Latios's leftovers restored its health a little!
Latios restored 6% of its health.
---
If he Calm Minds, I could be in trouble. Hopefully he attacks and stays at +1. I protect to get my speed boost and go for the kill.

Yanmega used Protect.
Yanmega protected itself!
Latios used Dragon Pulse.
Yanmega protected itself!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
It's super effective!
Latios lost 67% of its health.
Latios used Calm Mind.
Latios's special attack was raised.
Latios's special defence was raised.
---
I'm actually surprised that at +1 special defense, Bug Buzz is still a solid solid 2HKO. I think it suprised wayff also, because he Calm Minded again, thinking it wouldn't do as much. Here is where Latias is arguably better. Though I'm unsure how much of a difference it would be.

Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
It's super effective!
Latios lost 50% of its health.
wayff13's Latios fainted.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---

*5-3*

Phew... No more Latios.. And Stealth Rock will finish Mamoswine. I'm in the clear.

wayff13 switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
Pointed stones dug into Mamoswine.
Mamoswine lost 12% of its health.
wayff13's Mamoswine fainted.

*5-2*

wayff13 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.

Heatran is in, so I switch to Latios to Earthquake him to oblivion and finish the match.

Erik-Testing switched in Latios (lvl 100 Latios ?).
Heatran woke up!
Heatran used Lava Plume.
It's not very effective...
Latios lost 22% of its health.
Latios was burned!
Latios was hurt by its burn!
Latios lost 12% of its health.
---
A burn is not good, So I DD, to ensure the kill.

Latios used Dragon Dance.
Latios's attack was raised.
Latios's speed was raised.
Heatran used Lava Plume.
It's not very effective...
Latios lost 20% of its health.
Latios was hurt by its burn!
Latios lost 12% of its health.
---
Latios used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 95% of its health.
wayff13's Heatran fainted.
Latios lost 10% of its health.
Latios was hurt by its burn!
Latios lost 12% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Latios fainted.
---

*4-1*

Erik-Testing switched in Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ?).
wayff13 switched in Gallade (lvl 100 Gallade ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gallade.

And Yanmega comes in to finish off Gallade and win the match!

Gallade lost 6% of its health.
Gallade used Shadow Sneak.
Yanmega lost 29% of its health.
Yanmega used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Gallade lost 85% of its health.
wayff13's Gallade fainted.
Erik-Testing wins!

*4-0*

wayff13: gg
wayff13 has left the room.

*4-0*

Props:

• Magnezone for eliminating Skarm, and opening the floor for Latios.
• Yanmega for being a forgotten threat for latios, and actually hanging around in battle without being neutered by entry hazards for a chang.e
• Latios for actually doing something this match.
• Hax free battle!

Slops:

• Dragon Dance Latios for not living up to its hype.
• Celebi for not sticking around.

Thanks to wayff for a great battle and helping me test.

*Summary / Conclusions / Anaylsis:*

Now, this was just one battle, but I've actually had about 10 with this team, just testing out DD Latios in particular. I will try out different sets (specs next!) to see which one is too "broken" but I doubt any of them will be. Through my personal testing, Dragon Dance Latios is epic fail. Why?

Latios has no 4Xs weakness to Ice!?? Take that Salamence / Garchomp / Dragonite!

As seen in the warstory, Suicune's puny 216 special attack Ice beam yanked off half of his health anyway, which will most likely be more problematic with Latios than Latias. I suspect Latias will be played more with support or a CM sweeper, and Latios as all out offensive. But anyway, even with no stealth rock weakness, the same Salamence / Chomp / Nite counters can handle DD Latios perfectly fine, as it 2HKOs all 4 anyway..

Latios has recover! And a killer movepool!

Latios / Latias have great movepools, but in a particular set like the Dragon Dancer, they will have absoultely no time to use it, or will be hard pressed to use it. I had to switch it, and switch back in to get juice back. As far as their movepool is concerned, their best functional sets have to use a myriad of support moves such as recover, dragon dance, safeguard or refresh, which severly limits their offensive type coverage. Without Magnezone, I wouldn't have gotten past skarm. Without Recover, I would have been finished after Suicune.

This thing is better than Salamence / Garchomp / Dragonite because the current tier list says so!

Actually, through my personal tests. Garchomp and Dragonite are definately better physical sweepers. Salamence performs about the same, but would deal out more damage. The only advantage Latios has is being faster than Scarfchomp and Deoxys with just one dance.


Now, to finish, my personal tests are only one perspective on the viability of Lati@ in OU. I've currently only tried the Dragon Dancer, but will definately try Latias as a support pokemon, and more moveset options for Latios. I was intrigued by Bentendo13s MixLatios set in he creative moveset thread.. so it's next on the testing list.

I encourage all of you to try these cool twins out for yourselves. They are cool, top-tier pokemon that can add some flavor to your team!


Hope you enjoyed the warstory, and my comments / contributions!!

 

[DeLorean]

puny 216 special attack Ice beam yanked off half of his health anyway,

I wouldn't be so sure, latios can calm mind up alongside it, recover, and the procede to own with dragon pulse and grass knot/Hp fire/Whatever.

I still think it's just a tad to good. Mamoswine will be the new standard, and overcentralisation will destroy the metagame as we know it.

However, icy wind blissey will be useful. ;)

 

[Jolt99]

Its great to finally see someone advocating the use of the lati twins in OU! I've always thought of them as viable for OU, and I think there needs to be a serious discussion about it.

People seem to think that latios is an extremely bulky monster that will come in on anything, shrug off the hit like its a feather, set up a couple of dragon dances, then outspeed and kill everything with SE hits with its gigantic movepool!!

I've used latias as a special wall, but gave up when everyone cried UBER on shoddy. She actually has to be EV'ed thoughtfully to invoke her best capabilities as a wall.

Having a huge movepool also means moveslot syndrome, and putting more support or recovery moves on it (some that will seem essential like DD and recover/roost) will leave less slots for type coverage. Lati@s might be able to do everything, but not at once.

Remember that lati@s is part psychic, which means pursuit weak.

Weavile would rape them with pursuit/night slash, mamoswine is becoming more popular, and other dragons could put up a decent fight.

Soul dew ignores defense, so the above threats are still viable even on SD lati@s.

I think they should at least be tested.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Then there's the fact that Specs Latios with Draco Meteor/HP Fire/Dragon Pulse/Surf is pretty much a stronger, faster Specsmence with a better secondary typing that, on top of providing a better Secondary STAB in other situations, also leaves it without a 4x Ice weakness, not to mention no Stealth Rock weakness, as well as a huge movepool.

 

[Frozen_Spirit]

bliss has ice beam and CM latis could recover the damag. and the -1 in speed aint worth it either

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, I'm actually testing the DD MixLatios set with Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt, and Dragon Dance and a Life Orb. After the DD, Dragon Claw 2HKOs Blissey if you need to, but they usually send out Skarm or Gyarados, who are both annihilated by Thunderbolt. Hippos, Gliscors, Weezings, etc, are OHKOed by Draco Meteor (as well as most other things, because it hits like mixmences). If Cress / Noir switch into a Dragon Claw, they also get finished. It's a LOT more frigtening than the standard DD set, but is no more threatening than Deoxys-E, who has little trouble with the same threats.

My conclusion from the DD Latios set... It sucks. I have logs to prove it. Seriously people, stick to Dragonite or Salamence for DD, or use the mix set above I'm describing if you have a Dragon Dance fetish.

 

[Wayff]

Hey there, RaikouLover, awesome warstory. Anyways, I'm thinking about using Scarf Latios in a match with you. Also, this was a team I was using for testing Smogon, so don't flame me saying I suck. I made lots of mistakes in this match, though overall, it was a good match. I don't have experience with the Lati twins, and messed up with it on Yanmega. Good game, Erik.

 

[Gandalf the blue]

Great battle, and it shows that they are no Ubers thanks to the reasons you posted.

@XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2: This is the most common and worst argument, really. Salamence has way higher Atk, its imo a waste to reduce it in this way. Mixmence is the way to go.

@raikouLower: Why didnt you told me you were Erik_testing?^^Do you have any other secondary Accounts?

 

[Bourbon]

Urgh, I don't know... I'm really getting tired of dragons. Not only do I have to kill a Garchomp every game I play on Wifi, but some people have more than one 600 dragon on their team. Throwing in two more will be very annoying.

HOWEVER

If Garchomp ends up getting banned, I'd let these guys in. They'd fill the void he left nicely, and are a lot less annoying than Chomp is.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Good battle and good warstory. But wasn't it obvious that DDLatios would never match the power of Garchomp/Dragonite/Salamence from the physical end of the spectrum? (*cough90baseAttackcough*)

The only reason people bring up the DD set is because fewer people would expect Latios to run DD. It's good that we're testing it though.

 

[Bourbon]

I'm most excited about the possibility of using Latias over Blissey myself ^_^ Latios is just another boring sweeping dragon.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Latios is just another boring sweeping dragon.

How is being the best Specs Draco Meteor user boring? Like stated elsewhere, the damn thing is faster and stronger then Salamence from the special side, and SpecsMence is a freaking monster thanks Draco Meteor being a broken move.

I'm not sold on Latios being OU ready. A regular Sepcs DM set would put it up there as one of the most dangerous pokes, and thats before you have to worry about its absurd move pool. Trying to counter Latios is harder then freaking Garchomp, and people want him shoved up to Ubers.

Latias is possibly OU without Soul Dew. If either has Soul Dew... yeah. No way in hell.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

How is being the best Specs Draco Meteor user boring? Like stated elsewhere, the damn thing is faster and stronger then Salamence from the special side, and SpecsMence is a freaking monster thanks Draco Meteor being a broken move.

I'm not sold on Latios being OU ready. A regular Sepcs DM set would put it up there as one of the most dangerous pokes, and thats before you have to worry about its absurd move pool. Trying to counter Latios is harder then freaking Garchomp, and people want him shoved up to Ubers.

Latias is possibly OU without Soul Dew. If either has Soul Dew... yeah. No way in hell.

He means dragons are overpowered and he finds them boring.

 

[Janenmori]

Excellent battle. Nice prediction on both sides. I can see why Latios should not be uber. Too many OUs can take it out.

 

[xcfrisco]

I think we need to redefine the tier list before we let the Lati twins in. Plus, banning an item seems like a slippery-slope argument. However, if the goal of OU is to let the most non-broken pokemon compete, then by all means let them in.

I thought OU was supposed to be about creating the most "balanced" metagame while still allowing the most amount of pokes in (a very delicate process). This is why I kind of think letting former Ubers in just for the sake of them not breaking OU is kind of retarded, since they typically make the standard metagame more centralized than the other way around.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think we need to redefine the tier list before we let the Lati twins in. Plus, banning an item seems like a slippery-slope argument. However, if the goal of OU is to let the most non-broken pokemon compete, then by all means let them in.

I thought OU was supposed to be about creating the most "balanced" metagame while still allowing the most amount of pokes in (a very delicate process). This is why I kind of think letting former Ubers in just for the sake of them not breaking OU is kind of retarded, since they typically make the standard metagame more centralized than the other way around.

In the case of Soul Dew, it literally bumps the Latis Base Stats up to 738.

Soul Dew Latios (and even Latias, it has the same Base SA as Mence) is essentially Specsmence with yet more speed, and without the, you know, downside of only selecting one move. Did I mention they also get their highest defensive stat boosted too? Soul Dew is just insane.

The degree to which Soul Dew is broken is far and away greater than anything that can be said about Brightpowder VeilChomp.

 

[DeLorean]

Excellent battle. Nice prediction on both sides. I can see why Latios should not be uber. Too many OUs can take it out.

I think the strongest STAB draco meteor in the game is a pretty excellent reason. The fact that it has such a vast movepool and an excellent type coverage is a good reason too. No 4x weaknesses is sort of irritating as well. And don't get me STARTED on the mass over-centralisation that will destroy all we love. You'll only be able to revenge kill it, and only then it's going to have to be a pursuit user that can outrun it. Weavile will run rampant, and all will be lost in chaos. I think it's a nice idea, but ubers should just remain in ubers TBH.

 

[Bologo]

I think the strongest STAB draco meteor in the game is a pretty excellent reason. The fact that it has such a vast movepool and an excellent type coverage is a good reason too. No 4x weaknesses is sort of irritating as well. And don't get me STARTED on the mass over-centralisation that will destroy all we love. You'll only be able to revenge kill it, and only then it's going to have to be a pursuit user that can outrun it. Weavile will run rampant, and all will be lost in chaos. I think it's a nice idea, but ubers should just remain in ubers TBH.

Yeah, so if Luvdisc and Unown were the only two non-ubers then I suppose that everything else would remain uber according to you eh.

Not like there's no Blissey, or Steel types. Don't forget that the Latis don't take physical hits very well, and being weak to 5 types isn't good especially when those move types are used so widely by certain OU pokemon.

Why don't you explain how everything would be lost in "chaos". You haven't done a very good job of that. -.-

I have a feeling that this topic is really going to go in circles like the Garchomp discussion, but whatever, prove me wrong I guess for anyone discussing.

 

[DeLorean]

Yeah, so if Luvdisc and Unown were the only two non-ubers then I suppose that everything else would remain uber according to you eh.

Excuse me? I'm just worried overcentralisation. Garchomp * 2.

Not like there's no Blissey, or Steel types. Don't forget that the Latis don't take physical hits very well, and being weak to 5 types isn't good especially when those move types are used so widely by certain OU pokemon.

I'm fairly certain that latios can deal with blissey, running a base power 210 move off a possible straight-off-the-bat 591 special attack stat. Also steels can be dealt with by HP fire.

Why don't you explain how everything would be lost in "chaos". You haven't done a very good job of that. -.-

Overcentralisation? When pursuit users like weavile become popular, counters for them will become mandatory again, and things like calm 252/252 Spdef/HP blissey won't be so absurd. I just think that everyone is going to have to overprepare on a massive scale to meet the threat that the lati@s twins posses. They'll quickly and easily become 2 of the best special-based tanks available. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think they'll become a fleeting gimmick like wobbuffet.

I have a feeling that this topic is really going to go in circles like the Garchomp discussion, but whatever, prove me wrong I guess for anyone discussing.

Because these types of problems seem to connect at both ends. Only time will tell.

 

[Bologo]

I'm fairly certain that latios can deal with blissey, running a base power 210 move off a possible straight-off-the-bat 591 special attack stat. Also steels can be dealt with by HP fire.

...Draco Meteor doesn't even have a chance at a 3HKO on Blissey if it just uses the standard 148 HP EVs against a Specs Latios with a Modest Nature. The reason being the special attack drop after Draco Meteor.

HP Fire is also still not very strong even when SE on a Fire, especially because it's unSTAB.

Overcentralisation? When pursuit users like weavile become popular, counters for them will become mandatory again, and things like calm 252/252 Spdef/HP blissey won't be so absurd. I just think that everyone is going to have to overprepare on a massive scale to meet the threat that the lati@s twins posses. They'll quickly and easily become 2 of the best special-based tanks available. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think they'll become a fleeting gimmick like wobbuffet.

Umm yes 252 HP/252 SDef Blissey will be absurd. -.-

Counters are already mandatory for stuff like Weavile and it isn't particularly hard to counter. Tyranitar is #4 on the usage list, so that can't really get much more popular as a Pursuit user. People really aren't going to have to change their teams much to adapt since very overused pokemon are perfect counters to many of the Lati sets.

Excuse me? I'm just worried overcentralisation. Garchomp * 2.

Uhh, wow? You really think these things are worse than Garchomp?

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Uhh, wow? You really think these things are worse than Garchomp?

Latias probably isn't, as its more geared towards tanking, but Latios is far and away better then Garchomp. Have you not looked at its base stats and move pool? Also keep in mind that your precious Blissey could be wrecked by mixed versions of Latios, and even the possible Dragon Dance variation.

Garchomp is partially handled thanks to its 4x weakness to Ice, while Latios only has a 2x weakness, and a very good base 110 Special Defense. Garchomp also is generally all Physical, or ChainChomp. Latios can pack Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance, Zen Headbutt, Natural Gift (useful depending on what counters pop up), and Earthquake. Thats a pretty good physical move pool, and DD helps out that base 90 Att, which isn't terrible.

But the problem also becomes the fact that Latios can pack Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Thunderbolt, Thunderwave (for support), Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, Energy Ball, Charge Beam, Psychic, Ice Beam, CALM MIND, and can break stalls with Toxic. This thing has crazy good stats even without Soul Dew and a stupid good move pool. The damn thing even gets Recover and Roost!

Latios is simply terrifying even without Soul Dew. Latias.... maybe not as much. But still would be among the top OU pokes.

 

[Rhykune]

Oh please don't bring more ubers into OU. I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with Deoxys-S and especially Wobbuffet. And also do we need 2 unpredictable, fast, reasonably defensive, best offensive and one of the best defensive typed with no 4x Ice Weakness or Stealth Rock Weakness in OU. Yes there is over a line in why they should not be OU. Isn't the tier list fine where it is? Moving the Lati@s into OU wouldn't solve anything, there would just be more tests and shit blah blah until every pokemon has at least changed a tier.

 

[Bentendo1]

Latias probably isn't, as its more geared towards tanking, but Latios is far and away better then Garchomp. Have you not looked at its base stats and move pool? Also keep in mind that your precious Blissey could be wrecked by mixed versions of Latios, and even the possible Dragon Dance variation.

Garchomp is partially handled thanks to its 4x weakness to Ice, while Latios only has a 2x weakness, and a very good base 110 Special Defense. Garchomp also is generally all Physical, or ChainChomp. Latios can pack Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance, Zen Headbutt, Natural Gift (useful depending on what counters pop up), and Earthquake. Thats a pretty good physical move pool, and DD helps out that base 90 Att, which isn't terrible.

But the problem also becomes the fact that Latios can pack Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Thunderbolt, Thunderwave (for support), Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, Energy Ball, Charge Beam, Psychic, Ice Beam, CALM MIND, and can break stalls with Toxic. This thing has crazy good stats even without Soul Dew and a stupid good move pool. The damn thing even gets Recover and Roost!

Latios is simply terrifying even without Soul Dew. Latias.... maybe not as much. But still would be among the top OU pokes.

That (the special one) looks like a Cresselia with worse defenses, better offenses, and STAB dragon with decent moves to me, along with a more reliable way to heal.

Dragon Dance lacks the offensive power thanks to its base 90 attack. It's outclassed by other DDers in OU.

 

[Lee]

I think the strongest STAB draco meteor in the game is a pretty excellent reason.

Rayquaza?

The Latis are an interesting argument, and I'm completely undecided on the matter at the moment. One thing that does annoy me is when people say stupid stuff like "Latios is uber, but Latias isn't." An oft overlooked fact is that Latias has higher physical defence, and an (arguably) better movepool. Whereas Latios has the almost useless Heal Block, Latias has one of the best moves in the game in Wish. Dragon Dance is interesting on Latios but it will often end up looking like a gimmick, whilst Latias has Charm to neuter any Pursuit attempts.

Granted we're in an offensive stage of the metagame, but I still think it's folly to write off Latias because Latios hits harder. It's not as if Latias can't go on the offensive anyway; lets not forget that she still has the same SpA as Salamence, but also has Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, STAB Psychic, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot and Surf to play with too.

 

[Bentendo1]

Rayquaza?

The Latis are an interesting argument, and I'm completely undecided on the matter at the moment. One thing that does annoy me is when people say stupid stuff like "Latios is uber, but Latias isn't." An oft overlooked fact is that Latias has higher physical defence, and an (arguably) better movepool. Whereas Latios has the almost useless Heal Block, Latias has one of the best moves in the game in Wish. Dragon Dance is interesting on Latios but it will often end up looking like a gimmick, whilst Latias has Charm to neuter any Pursuit attempts.

Granted we're in an offensive stage of the metagame, but I still think it's folly to write off Latias because Latios hits harder. It's not as if Latias can't go on the offensive anyway; lets not forget that she still has the same SpA as Salamence, but also has Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, STAB Psychic, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot and Surf to play with too.

Latias could also be a new MixApe counter, and you could run something like Suicune to stop those running HP Ice. If Infernape carries a set like Fire Blast/Grass Knot/HP Ice/Close Combat it doesn't have enough power to take out either.

Interesting stuff.