Choice Items in the Metagame Discussion

[RaikouLover]

Introduction​

In advance, the game was changed with the addition of the Choice Band. This revolutionary item allowed a user to attack with 1.5Xs the normal power but restricted the user to only one attack until it is recalled. In D/P, Game Freak decided to expand on this and add Choice Specs and Choice Scarf to the mix. So here is a quick recap:

Choice Band: increases pokemon's physical attack power of selected move by 50% until it is recalled.

Choice Specs: increases pokemon's special attack power of selected move by 50% until it is recalled.

Choice Scarf: increases pokemon's speed by 50% and restricts usage to one move until it is recalled.

Discussion​

So now that the formailities are out of the way, I am going to open this discussion to talk about Choice Items. In short, I think the metagame is going about using Choice Items completely the wrong way, and that is evident in all the RMTs and Peer Edits I have seen as of late. So this is mainly a reflection on my personal experiences and my theories on how people should be using Choice Items. Feel free to discuss, agree, disagree, etc.. after all this is a discussion thread.

Choice Effectiveness​

So basically, I can't make an such an audatious claim without supporting it, so I have to offer suggestions and reasons why I think Choice items are misused. So this section will explain some reasoning behind my madness.

Choice Band / Specs vs. Scarf: In my opinion Choice Band / Specs are much safer and more effective in the current Metagame than Choice Scarf. In fact, Choice Scarf may be the reason taht Choice items are overused in first place. Why is Choice Band / Specs more effective? Easy! If you use them correctly, they take nice chunks out of an opposing team and while at the same time leaving you less vulnerable to set-up then Choice Scarf.

What makes a good user of Choice Specs / Band???​

1. Power - Pretty simple and straightforward. You don't want to waste your time slapping a Choice Band on a pokemon with base 70 Attack now do you??? Another VERY important overlooked think to note about power is the base power of the moves, which I will discuss in depth further down. Gyarados has an excellent attack score but is rather mediocre as a Choice user because of its weak base power STAB attack, among other things.​
2. Neutral Coverage - This is THE MOST frustrating and important point I can make in this entire thread. Lately, I see many users submitting sets that concentrate on hitting targets Super Effectively. However, that is a terrible misconception about Choice Items. In fact, the reverse is true. The key to using Choice Specs / Band is to focus on your neutral coverage, regardless of the type chart. Why? It is more important.. that simple. Because you are boosting damage, super effective type coverage should be of little concern, and certainly not be first thing you think about when designing a Choice Set for your team. Realistically, you should try to choose a pokemon that can acheive nearly perfect coverage in just two moves. You should never have to use the fourth option, and will rarely use the third option in most cases. Therefore, omit any unneccessary moves that are disgned to hit specific pokemon Super Effective, rather than concentration on your own coverage. For example, say you choose Choice Specs Heatran, and you opt to put Hidden Power Electric on it to deter Gyarados switch ins.. Bad idea. Why? A Timid Choice Specs Heatran will hit offensive Gyarados 44-53%, and bulky Gyarados for 37-44%. That is the whole nature of Choice Items... to fire off your most powerful attack to keep the other team off balance. Therefore, listen carefully to what I am about to say: If you have to use Hidden Power on a Choice Specs user to acheive decent neutral coverage, it probably isn't a good candidate fore Choice Specs to begin with. Hidden Power is a mistakingly overused move, and its horrid power is undesirable. I will explain when I get into set details.​
3. Accessibility: This is something many of you already now and consciously think about when assigning Choice Items to specific pokemon. How easy is it to get this Choice user in???? Picking a Choice user that has multiple attempts to get in will be most beneficial to your team in the long run, and allow you to punch more holes in the opponents team. So things here to consider are weakness / susceptibility to entrance hazards, immunities to attacks or status, and resistances.​
4. The "Uncertainty Factor:" This is something I sort of came up with myself that makes certain Choice Users especially good. The uncertainty factor is more of a bonus than anything, but does distinguish a few Choice candidates from others. So what I mean by this is a pokemon thats entry into battle creates difficult decisions for the opponent. Rather than just thinking about who to switch to, they now have to think about "Do I switch? or do I stay in?" Yes, I'm talking about Pursuiters like Tyranitar, U-turners like Scizor and Flygon, and pokemon with dry Baton Pass like Jolteon. Their appearance in battle can really put an opponent in a tight spot.​

So, with all that being said, who are some good examples of Choice Specs / Band candidates? I'll start at the top. In my opinion this are the most potent users of each, and why you should use them.

Each candidate will have a mini "report card" that I encourage you guys to think about when you select Choice Users.

Report Card grading scale:

* = Good luck trying to get this to Work!
** = Poor
*** = Fair
**** = Good
***** = Excellent

Use Me alot!
Be Careful, use me if you have to!
Be Very Careful when using me!
I'm a filler, and won't get much use
Use at your heart's content.

Choice Specs!!!!

Ability: Volt Absorb
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Thunderbolt
*Shadow Ball
*Hidden Power Grass
*Baton Pass

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: ***

Jolteon is a solid Choice Specs user. It is fast, powerful, and Thunderbolt + Shadow Ball hits everything except Magnezone for neutral damage in OU. It has many opportunities to get in on Electric moves and Thunder-waves. It also can get in on predicted stat-up moves, such as an Infernape Nasty Plot. It can even switch in on a Dragon Dancing Gyarados.

Ability: Flash Fire
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Fire Blast / Overheat
*Dragon Pulse
*Earth Power
*Explosion / Flamethrower

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: *****
Uncertainty: *

Heatran is one of the best Choice Specs users there are. If you can get a Flash Fire boost, you can 2HKO those bulky waters. Don't bother with Hidden Powers because Fire + Dragon hits everything neutral, which is important. Earth Power is just for other tran, so use it sparingly. Unfortunately, everyone knows what Heatran is capabile of.

Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Shadow Ball
*Thunderbolt
*Focus Blast
*Trick

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: *****
Uncertainty: *

As long as you can predict Tyranitar, Gengar is actually an excellent Choice Specs user! Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt hits everything neutral except Magnezone. Shadow Ball and Focus Blast hits everything neutral... so just press buttons. Don't let the rampaging Dino keep you from using this guy.

Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Draco Meteor
*Surf
*Dragon Pulse / Psychic
*Trick

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: *****
Uncertainty: *

Provided they go OU, they are excellent. Psychic hits more super effective, Dragon Pulse hits more neutral. You already have the first two for neutrality so it doesn't matter too much. Just beware of Pursuiters.

(All formes)
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Thunderbolt
*Shadow Ball
*Overheat / Hydro Pump / Blizzard / Leafstorm
*Trick / Will-O-Wisp / Discharge

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: ***

Rotom causes mayhem everywhere. First two moves hit everthing except Magnezone neutral.

Ability: Own Tempo
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
*Surf
*Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Ice Beam
*Psychic
*Slack Off / Thunderwave

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: **

Five resistances and wallish appeal make this a surprise. As long as you Surf at your heart's content, this guys hits hard.

Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Surf
*Psychic
*Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
*Trick / Rest

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: ***
Uncertainty: **

Like Slowbro, excellent coverage, but Pursuit weak so hold off on Psychic. Just fire off Surfs. You get more mileage out of Psychic and one of Thunderbolt / Ice Beam rather than both, since you can smack things hard with Psychic.

Ability: Tinted Lens
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Bug Buzz
*Air Slash
*U-turn
*Hidden Power Ground / Hypnosis

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: *
Uncertainty: ****

Good luck switching into this thing. Good luck switching this thing into anything else either.

Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Draco Meteor
*Flamethrower
*Hydro Pump
*Dragon Pulse

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: **
Uncertainty: **

Its Specsmence, its legendary.

Ability: Levitate
Nature: Modest
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
*Sludge Bomb
*Flamethrower / Fire Blast
*Explosion / Thunderbolt
*Hidden Power Ground

Power: ***
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: *****
Uncertainty: **

Weezing hits surprisingly hard. Give him a try, Poison + Electric + Thunderbolt hits everything except Swampert and Rhyperior. Also can come in all day.​

Choice Band!!!

There are some excellent Choice Banders out there, but these five really shine and fit EVERYTHING I described:

Ability: Sandstream
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe
*Stone Edge
*Crunch
*Aqua Tail / Earthquake
*Pursuit

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: *****

Tyranitar is the best Choice Bander this generation, but I bet you never really thought about why until this thread!!!! Ok so maybe you did. Anyway, he hits hard.. go figure.

Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
*Return
*Selfdestruct
*Crunch
*Earthquake / Fire Punch

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: ****​

Snorlax is a beast of a Choice Bander. Nothing to it, just Return Return Return. Selfdestruct for a free OHKO. Crunch / Earthquake for the handful of pokemon that resist you.

Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
*U-turn
*Bullet Punch
*Pursuit
*Superpower

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: ***
Accessbility: *****
Uncertainty: *****

Scizor defines the Uncertainty factor. You have to think about a bullet punch death, switching out to a counter that gets mauled by a U-turn, or switching out and dying.​

Ability: Levitate

Nature: Adamant / Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
*Outrage
*U-turn
*Earthquake
*Stone Edge

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: ****

Flygon is a solid Choice Bander. Good coverage and high base power moves, and U-turn to cause mayhem.​

Ability: Inner Focus / Intimidate
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
*Outrage
*Aqua Tail
*Earthquake
*Fire Punch / Fire Fang / Fire Blast

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: **
Uncertainty: ****

Monstrous. Tougher to get in but they will both fuck shit up. Dragonite has Fire Punch, which 2HKOs Skarmory and Bronzong but Salamence has to resort to weaker moves. The beauty of them is though, anything slower is going to get 2HKOed, and anything faster is going to get OHKOed, hence, good uncertainty.

Choice Scarf: The Double Edged- Sword​

There is way too much Choice Scarf usage in the Metagame now. Period. Many people rely on the Choice Scarf for revenge killing, but fail to realize that if you use a Choice Scarf to revenge kill a faster sweeper, you become mere set-up fodder for the next sweeper. Therefore, there are several reasons that you should STRONGLY consider before slapping Choice Scarf Pokemon X, just to seal your Y weakness.​

1. Power: Like the other Choice sets, a Choice Scarfer has to be extremely powerful, even moreso then things you slap a Band or Specs on. If it manages to revenge kill something, your opponent has to be weary of setting up, therefore you want pokemon with very strong moves and very high attack scores. That already narrows the list of potential Scarfers.​
2. Neutral type coverage: Again like before, neutrality is even more powerful for revenge killing. If you can use brute strength, you don't have to deal with this next parameter on this list.​
3. Consequences: A Choice Scarf user has to be able to keep your team out of a tight situation even after it completed its revenge kill. A Choice Scarfer with bad consequences is going to lose a lot of games for you, and allow your opponent to dictate the pace of the match. This effect is much more severe with Chocie Scarf than it is with Choice Band or Choice Specs, mainly because they are damage boosting, and those pokemon can still hit even resists hard. So basically, more stars on the report card means the less likely this pokemon is to fuck you over after.​

So with all that being said, I can only think of five Choice Scarfers that I would ever use, and they seldom find their way onto any of my teams. Again, I promise you will be happier with your teams if you can find another way to deal with Dragon Dance or Agility Sweepers. Choice Scarf can save you from a Salamence sweep, but open you up to a Lucario sweep. This is especially common on teams that use offensive type resisting duos, which is very common. So here are my Scarfers:

Ability: Sand Veil
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
*Dragon Claw
*Earthquake
*Outrage
*Stone Edge / Fire Blast

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Consequences: ****


Garchomp was the best Scarfer of this generation. Period. Nothing revenge killed with brute force like this thing. Earthquake wasn't nearly as risky for chomp also, since even if you had to switch out from a DDer, you were still faster than them when you came back in.

Ability: Download
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Tri Attack
*Thunderbolt
*Dark Pulse
*Hidden Power Fighting / Hyper Beam

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Consequences: ***


Porygon-Z is one of the best Choice Scarfers there is, and is still dangerous to use. Tri Attack is the only button you should ever press, with Thunderbolt to cover Gyarados. Don't even suggest Ice Beam because you won't need it. An offensive neutral Special Defense natured Dragon Dancing Salamence will take a minimum 74% from a +1 Tri Attack unless it is carrying SpDef EVs, in that case Download won't even work anyway! Other than that, don't use the rest of its moves and it will be fine.

Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Jolly / Adamant
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
*Return
*Brave Bird
*U-turn
*Close Combat

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Consequences: ***


Staraptor is a good user of Choice Scarf, and Choice Band for that matter, but I didn't have to include him up there! He's good strong attack, high base power moves, excellent speed, and because you are hitting things neutral you don't have to worry too much about prediction. Definately what you want in a Choice Scarfer.

Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Air Slash
*Trick / Tri Attack
*Aura Sphere
*Flamethrower

Power: ***
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Consequences: ****


Flinchkiss is a great Choice Scarfer, still. Take my word for it. Most things won't set up in the face of a 60% chance of attacking. Air Slash is also a great neutral STAB attack. Don't bother with the last two unless you have too, they are great set-up fodder.

Ability: Guts
Nature: Jolly / Adamant
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe / 4 SpD
*Close Combat
*Megahorn
*Stone Edge
*Night Slash / Pursuit / Toxic

Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: ***
Consequences: *


I was a little skeptical of even posting Heracross, since he is pretty much the opposite of what you want to use in a Choice Scarfer. However, his main STAB is resisted by pokemon that can be handled with his other moves, and in the right hands he is an absolute beast. Really the only thing Heracross has going for it is the insane attack and base power moves. If your looking for a Choice Scarfer, Heracross is a solid force, just have some Gyarados / Mence coverage. The whacky EV spread gives you 309 HP, and enough speed to outrun Jolly Gyarados after a DD.
So those are the creame of the crop in Choice Scarfers. I kno I will receive hate mail saying "you suck, Heatran is great!" but again, don't ever use Hidden Power on Choice pokemon unless you really have to, even then.. you are better off picking something else to do the job.​

Conclusion​

All in all, I hope you guys enjoyed my rant about Choice Items in the metagame. Many of you will disagree with my stances, my pokemon choices, and my sets... but this is a discussion thread so go ahead and tell me I suck or that I'm a genius. Anyway, discuss Choice Items, and I hope I opened a few of you up to some new ideas about how dangerous they can be for both teams.​

​

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[IceTime]

Weezing hits surprisingly hard. Give him a try, Poison + Electric + Thunderbolt hits everything except Swampert and Rhyperior. Also can come in all day.
​

​

You meant fire right?

Anyways, i think the type of choice item to be used is based partly on the team, for example, offensive teams benefit from banders or specs pokemon since their job is to hit harder than the opponent can handle, and like you said scarfers might give the opponent a chance to setup, which will put the offensive team on the defensive, a clear disadvantage. some stall teams might also benefit from a scarfer to clean up when the stalling is done and the opponent's team is at very low health, and the scarfer can also help against setup pokemon, by being faster than the setup, etc.
​

 

[pi face]

I don't know about you, but I would NEVER use choicers that are weak to SR, except maybe Salamence, since it hits insanely hard (with Band/Scarf - Specs really is inferior to MixMence).

Heracross is really cool as a Scarfer also (Jolly obviously), especially because Gliscor's usage has gone down, and a timely Stone Edge can fuck up his counters. He needs more love.

nice thread.

 

[X-Act]

Your reasons why SpecsTran is awesome can be copied and pasted for SpecsCanine in new UU... or, at least, they should be. It even has a few advantages, like Extremespeed, a higher base Speed and a choice between Flash Fire and Intimidate. Of course, it has a much lower base SpA (though still respectable) and a Stealth Rock weakness, but that shouldn't stop it from going well in new UU.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Good thread, RL.

@.Sulphur - Choice Specs/Scarf Zapdos is an okay lead too.

Choice Band Tyranitar, Snorlax, and Scizor give me nightmares.

Stone Edge has abysmal PP and accuracy, a Fire (or Electric) move might be better suited for even CB Flygon.

You should add that its incredibly risky to be Tricking either Choice Specs or Choice Band because if your opponent predicts it you're just going to boost some other poke's attacks (not to mention every solid team usually has some designated poke to receive Tricked Choice items).

Another pokémon that deserves honorable mention among the Scarfers is Jirachi. In my experiences I've found it much easier to use than Togekiss as Togekiss becomes increasingly harder to use later in the game due to Rocks. Not to mention Iron Head has 100% accuracy... and a 60% Flinch rate.

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 108 HP/200 Atk/200 Spd (My Preferred EVs)
*Iron Head
*Ice Punch
*Fire Punch / *Trick / *ThunderPunch / *Stealth Rock
*Fire Punch / *Trick / *ThunderPunch / *Stealth Rock

Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: ***
Consequences: **

Pros:
Jirachi benefits from a Choice Scarf by allowing it to be one of the best anti-leads in OU (faster than non-Scarfed Dugtrios!). With Iron Head it will be Flinching suicide lead Azelfs and Areodactyls most of the time before they get a chance to set up Stealth Rock. This can come in on Adamant Gyarados while it DDs once and either OHKO with ThunderPunch or stick it with the Scarf. Other than that there's not much else ThunderPunch will do for you. Revenge killing Outraging Adamant Choice Banded Dragons is good too. As a base 100 Speedster it makes an excellent revenge killer that can threaten many OU pokémon. Blissey and Tyranitar will be losing most of the time vs. Iron Head Jirachi.

Risks:
The biggest threat for Choice Scarf Jirachi is getting trapped by Magnezone, but Fire Punch deals massive damage to it. The second biggest threat is Heatran coming in to obtain a Flash Fire boost from Fire Punch. Zen Headbutt is also an option, but it is extremely risky as it can miss and its Finch rate is 40%, which might put you in a bind when you fight lead Infernapes.

 

[pi face]

hmm I never tested Choice Zapdos, so I won't say anything... but the others I used didn't do much with limited switches.

And oh, nice catch MTI. I totally forgot about Scarf Jirachi. He's one of the best Scarfers out there in my opinion (I use Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Fire Punch, U-turn - never used Trick much).
He's so versatile that he can outspeed all Dragon Dancers (expect Salamence which is a coin toss - depends if they're using Adamant or Jolly) and revenge all of them with the right move if your team needs that.
It's also hard for other sweepers to setup against a 60% flinching move.

the SR and Bullet Punch/ExtremeSpeed resistance are also invaluable for a revenge killer.

 

[petrie911]

What was said about neutral coverage is absolutely true. I've been using the following Specs Blaziken in new UU.

Blaziken@Specs
Timid 252 satk, 252 spd, 6hp
Overheat
Focus Blast
Vacuum Wave
HP Electric

And I find myself almost never using HP Electric. I've seriously considered swapping it out for Fire Blast/Flamethrower for a more consistent Fire move. Fire/Fighting actually has pretty good coverage. HP Electric is just for Slowbro and Moltres, anyways.

Similarly, CB Crobat works well with Brave Bird/U-Turn/Pursuit/Quick Attack, completely forgoing Cross Poison. The reason being that the only thing Cross Poison hits harder than Brave Bird is Raikou, and having 4 resists+1 immune, especially when that immune likes to switch in on Crobat, is not appealing. Cross Poison could probably go in one of the last two slots, but it's not as great a choice as it seems.

 

[MapleSandwich]

In my opinon, the main point of choice items competitively is to allow Pokémon with superbly high stats to boost them even more without having to set up. For example, getting +2 Mence right from the get-go instead of having to Dragon Dance twice is a pretty nice deal, even if you are locked into one move. That's not the best example, because switching Mence out repeatdly will leave it shredded on Stealth Rocks, but you get my point.

The secondary point is to give Pokémon that have decent attacking stats the chance to sweep in a fashion they usually can't due to a lack of buffs. This is most often seen with Specs, such as SpecsLuke or the mighty SpecsMence. (It's surprising that you listed SpecsMence and not SpecsLuke, since Choice Specs Lucario is very underrated. In today's Physically oriented metagame, it can be a dominating sweeper late game, even 2HKOing Max HP/0SpDef Zapdos with SR damage using Aura Sphere.) Extremespeed Banded Hustle Togekiss is also seen from time to time.

 

[Caelum]

I don't fully agree on your assessment that Choice Scarf leaves you that significantly more open to set-up fodder. I believe that is true of almost any Choice-item user, that's the nature of the beast. I get the idea the Choice Band / Specs is less vulnerable to it but I think you are downplaying the ability to set-up against Band / Specs Pokemon myself. Obviously I agree on the concept of "coverage moves" that work off neutrality on Specs / Band users as I've stated many times so I won't comment on that. Nice of you to bring it up though ;)

There is another reason entirely that Choice Specs is a very effective item. Look at the Choice Specs users you listed. Jolteon, Heatran, Gengar, Starmie etc. Most of the time, people will not be expecting them to be holding Choice Specs (possibly Jolteon but with no other information I wouldn't assume any of the latter 3 are Choice Specs from the get go). The "surprisingly" high damage output initially can often put a team off balance and force them to make bad switches. That's part of the reason Choice Specs is particularly useful.

Choice Band is more predictable, the prevalence of at least. This could be possibly due to the fact there is no really effective "all choice-specs stopper" Pokemon like Blissey; or it could be that some of the highest hitters (both in stats and base power moves) just happen to be physical.

 

[chenman333]

I think Scarf Flygon is an amazing user of Choice Scarf, especially because he has U Turn. Not to mention STAB Earthquake can let him revenge a lot of scary steels and others like like T-Tar, Stone Edge for the abundance of fliers, and Outrage for a sexy sweep. He works well with CB too.

I dislike having pokemon with SR weaknesses and pokemon weak to Pursuit as choice users. Choice users usually need a lot of switching, and taking 25% every time in addition to switching into attacks just sucks too much. And with psychics and ghosts, one wrong prediction and you toast as you try in vain to run away or trying to kill (like Gengar stuck on Shadow Ball as CB Scizor switches in).

 

[Imran]

Long wall of text coming up. (I typed this beforehand, as I am determined to mirror the effort you put into the OP Raikoulover.) It's nice Choice Items have come up again, they are a simple enough concept to understand, but versatile enough to provide good discussion. And nicely presented RL ^_^ (5 stars) This thread might also be a useful reference with regards to Choice Items.

I am going to start by referring to my two favourite Choice users, Salamence in OU and Gallade in UU. I will start with Salamence, Outrage is what makes it. I run a set of Outrage / Earthquake / Stone Edge / Fire Blast. Out of those four moves I very rarely use anything but Outrage, Fire Blast is generally used when playing against Stall to catch that Skarmory / Forretress on the switch in. I use it a very crude fashion, you might say, it 2HKOs bulky waters and random things like Hippowdon and Cresselia on the way in (assuming Stealth Rock support), if it powers through one dedicated physical wall, it has done its job. I then use DD Kingdra late game to clean up. So how does it aid my team? Simple. It clears out things that would otherwise "wall" Kingdra, helping to set up a sweep. (Magnezone deals with Steel types, no-one uses him at the moment :o I think that is one thing people get wrong about Choice Band / Specs users, they are primarily "wall-breakers," not sweepers.

I'll now move on to Gallade in UU, it functions in a similar fashion. Close Combat powers through a lot of things in UU, I have Psycho Cut and X-Scizzor to hit bulky Poison / Psychic types and Shadow Sneak covers Ghost-types and is a good revenge killing move in general (notice I don't lose the power that I would have lost, had I used the Choice Scarf here) If that Slowbro / Weezing is <50% it had better watch out, because I can 2HKO it on the switch, never mind the fact that it hits Registeel and Steelix hard. Now lets apply these to your rules:

1. Power - Both have a STAB 120 BP move that they can utilise to it's fullest extent.
2. Neutral coverage - Salamence has perfect coverage with Dragon / Fire / Ground, yet rarely has to use anything but Dragon anyway, due to it's Sheer power. The same goes for Gallade, Ghosts switching in are more of a pain, but I do have the coverage against that (Spiritomb is a bother, but everything has counters [kinda] =D) Nothing resists Fighting / Ghost anyways.
3. Accesibility - These two fall down a little at this step. Salamence has a nasty Stealth Rock weakness, but has the added bonus of being able to come in on on Earthquakes, and Intimidate is useful too. Gallade resists Stealth Rock and has decent Special Defence, but can't switch in repeatedly on things like Steelix's Earthquake. A better example here would be CB Snorlax, who can come in easily on many things such as Zapdos and Vaporeon. I will come back to this point later.
4. The "uncertainty factor" - Neither of these have this added layer of strategy unfortunately, they go about their business by simply bashing things hard

So after a little analysis there we can see that neither of these two have every quality, but they do have 2 / 3 of the four at the very least. A good example is Flygon, he may not nessicarily be the the hardest hitting and may fail to a certain extent in that category, but he can come in on EdgeQuake, he can come in on Thunder Wave, still has Dragon / Ground / Fire coverage with STAB on two of those types and he has a cool little Trump Card in the form of U-Turn. Rendering him a very good candidate on a double switch.

A few notes on Specs and Scarf users: I find myself using Scarfers less and less, they are not needed as much as I used to find, this is probably because I have grown with experience (well, some experience) to anticipate situations and not let them get so out of hand that I need a scarfer. Like you said RL, scarfers are easily set up on. There are very few Pokemon that really have the power nessecary to scarf effectivley (Garchomp is one I can think of) Scarfers are also useful for checking threats should you wish to, Scarf Magnezone for Lucario for example, but I'd rather just have a Gengar to revenge kill etc... As for Specs I find the same rules apply in UU as for Choice Band, but I really tend not to use Specs in OU, Blissey is just too common to warrent that sort of thing. I personally tend to avoid it, the majority of my teams are physically based anyway, SpecsLuke can't beat standard Blissey now without a decent amount of residual damage. I find Trick is a little over-rated and un-reliable anyway.

Another thing to note about Choice Band / Specs users is that they are either bulky enough to survive hits and fire off ones back (Snorlax, Rhyperior, Vaporeon etc...) and therefore rely on their large bulk to come in on neutral attacks and hit hard. The other category is comletely different and rely on resists / immunities to come in, but will outspeed and hit hard straight from the off (Salamence, Gengar etc...). These categories play completely different, and there is not really very much "in-between" them.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

First of all, good job on the thread. Very nicely presented and a lot of effort has obviously been put into it.

I have a few quibbles though. About neutral coverage: I understand the idea of trying to acheive the best neutral coverage possible with two powerful moves, but I feel you were a bit lenient with your ratings for certain sets. For one thing, a Pokemon should not achieve five stars in this category unless it actually has perfect neutral coverage to begin with. That rules out the Latis, Slowbro and Starmie.

I also get the idea of trying not to resort to Hidden Power and other weak unSTAB'd moves where necessary. Kinda weird though given that you recently posted a set for Specs Raikou in UU which according to your criteria would not be that great a set.

Another thing, like what others have already said I do not feel that you paid enough attention to the risk factors involved with Choice Band / Specs Pokemon. There's the setup bait factor, but also trapping and Pursuit. You allude to this a couple of times, but fail to classify it as a serious drawback for certain Pokemon. Ghosts / Psychics in particular, but also defensively frail Pokemon that don't resist Dark, Pokemon using choiced Electric attacks, and of course Steel types. I reckon you could make your post even better if you were to make additions that take this important factor into account.

 

[M Dragon]

Excellent thread
Specsluke is also great. You should add it in the specs list

 

[speedwobbles225]

I use CB lax is lot and pursuit is what makes it awesome. But it has HORRIBLE "neutral" type coverage

Return/Body Slam/Selfdestruct: Easily dodged by ghosts
Earthquake: Fliers...
Pursuit: Weak even if they stay in
Crunch: The only reliable move but not your best.

 

[Buckles]

Wow, good job with the presentation, a really nice thread.

Just one thing, Specs Typhlosion is a monster. 475 Sp.Atk., base power 150 STAB move and, if you can get Sunny Day up, you'll 2HKO 252 HP/0 Sp.Def. Blissey all the time with the Rocks down. You can also pack EQ or Focus Blast to hit predicted Heatran switch-ins, though it leaves you a little vulnerable to Gengar.

 

[kd24]

I like choice scarf a lot more than band and specs and that is because it can create uncertainty (a phrase you use a lot) and cause a lot of guessing games. One of my favorite things to do with pokemon is perhaps send in a heatran early game on something faster than him. The opponent will then switch out, thinking I must be scarf. I stealth rock on the switch and then switch out of that counter. Later in the game, the exact situation unfolds but this time they go for the kill, thinking im baittran when in all reality, im just a choice scarf heatran with sr on as a slot.

i also like making the opponent guess if im choice scarf or not. lets say that you know i stick choice scarf on my sweepers and you have seen me do this early game. lets also say early game you switched in blissey on heatran and took little damage. this is an indicator that shows you i am not specs. so now you must make the desicion of if i am scarfed or not. you have a skarmory and a gyarados left against my heatran. you cant bring in gyarados because if i am scarfed, fire blast + fire blast + sr damage from before will kill you. gyarados can only take 1 fire blast. so you sacrifice skarm and bring in gyarados thinking you have the match won because you think i use choice scarf on my sweepers. of course, you are shocked when you bring in gyarados and instead take an expert belt boosted hp electric to the face. if i had been using other items like life orb and specs/band on my other pokemon, you might have thought that i could indeed be using expert belt or lefties but because i have shown other scarfers, you assumed that I indeed was using a choice scarf.

this could also work in the other direction, you see my scarfers and assume i dont have another one but you are definitely shocked when i use choice scarf fire blast to ohko your skarm and outspeed + ohko your faster cb dugtrio.

edit: nice thread though ^_^

 

[paramylodon]

RaikouLover, or anyone else, if you look at my RMT, I have 4 choice users, and have met much success (in the 30s on the ladder).

You and many others appear to agree that banded gyarados isn't very spectacular. I use it in my team, and have met much success.
While with an 80 base power STAB move it doesn't hit that hard for a choice bander (compared to the likes of Tyranitar), it does still hit very hard (40% off swampert and skarmory, meaning it beats both one on one).
And, for the rest of your criteria:

1. Neutral Coverage - This is THE MOST frustrating and important point I can make in this entire thread. Lately, I see many users submitting sets that concentrate on hitting targets Super Effectively. However, that is a terrible misconception about Choice Items. In fact, the reverse is true. The key to using Choice Specs / Band is to focus on your neutral coverage, regardless of the type chart. Why? It is more important.. that simple. Because you are boosting damage, super effective type coverage should be of little concern, and certainly not be first thing you think about when designing a Choice Set for your team. Realistically, you should try to choose a pokemon that can acheive nearly perfect coverage in just two moves. You should never have to use the fourth option, and will rarely use the third option in most cases. Therefore, omit any unneccessary moves that are disgned to hit specific pokemon Super Effective, rather than concentration on your own coverage. For example, say you choose Choice Specs Heatran, and you opt to put Hidden Power Electric on it to deter Gyarados switch ins.. Bad idea. Why? A Timid Choice Specs Heatran will hit offensive Gyarados 44-53%, and bulky Gyarados for 37-44%. That is the whole nature of Choice Items... to fire off your most powerful attack to keep the other team off balance. Therefore, listen carefully to what I am about to say: If you have to use Hidden Power on a Choice Specs user to acheive decent neutral coverage, it probably isn't a good candidate fore Choice Specs to begin with. Hidden Power is a mistakingly overused move, and its horrid power is undesirable. I will explain when I get into set details.​
2. Accessibility: This is something many of you already now and consciously think about when assigning Choice Items to specific pokemon. How easy is it to get this Choice user in???? Picking a Choice user that has multiple attempts to get in will be most beneficial to your team in the long run, and allow you to punch more holes in the opponents team. So things here to consider are weakness / susceptibility to entrance hazards, immunities to attacks or status, and resistances.​
3. The "Uncertainty Factor:" This is something I sort of came up with myself that makes certain Choice Users especially good. The uncertainty factor is more of a bonus than anything, but does distinguish a few Choice candidates from others. So what I mean by this is a pokemon thats entry into battle creates difficult decisions for the opponent. Rather than just thinking about who to switch to, they now have to think about "Do I switch? or do I stay in?" Yes, I'm talking about Pursuiters like Tyranitar, U-turners like Scizor and Flygon, and pokemon with dry Baton Pass like Jolteon. Their appearance in battle can really put an opponent in a tight spot.​

1. ​

Nuetral coverage: Excelent. Not much at all can switch into gyarados for this reason (other then salamence and vaporeon).
Accessibility: Other then stealth rock, due to intimidate, it is very easy to bring in, especially on the more defensive oriented pokemon that it can take down one on one (pretty much anything that doesn't resist waterfall).
Uncertainty factor, perhaps not that much here, but dragons and celebis coming in can be taken down if you predict right with ice fang (celebi takes ~45%, so if it has some prior damage+stealth rock, it'll be taken out).

Why no waterfall for dragonite?
Snorlax has less accessibility then scizor?
Snorlax's ability to tank special hits without worry is what makes it extremely capable.

I will take note as what you say does seem fairly logical, even if I haven't really experienced being fucked over by a scarfer, and try testing alternatives to scarfmence for countering dders and other fast pokemon (infernape) in general. Can't imediately think of anything that does what salamence does as well that would fit in an offensive minded team.

 

[Luxormaniac]

Choice Items undoubtedly run rampant in the metagame.
On the Choice Band section, you left out Dugtrio- it need'nt worry so much about coverage when you know it will hit whatever is in.

But I also appreciate your point about Scarfers becoming "setup bait."
Dugtrio and others are very susceptible to being set up on, giving your opponents free rein.

<Shivers> I think I'll think before I slap on another Scarf Palkia to an Uber team.

 

[FastHippo]

For example, say you choose Choice Specs Heatran, and you opt to put Hidden Power Electric on it to deter Gyarados switch ins.. Bad idea. Why? A Timid Choice Specs Heatran will hit offensive Gyarados 44-53%, and bulky Gyarados for 37-44%.

Can a +1 HP Electric, with Heatran's high SpA, really do such a pitiful amount of damage to a 4x weak opponent?

 

[wildfire393]

Suggestion for OP's Weezing: If Fire/Electric/Poison has coverage on everything except Swampert and Rhyperior, shouldn't the last move be HP Grass rather than HP Ground? It will hit those two remaining Pokemon super effectively, completing his coverage in a much better way.

 

[Rolf]

The only thing I see wrong in this thread is trying to hit neutral on scarfers. As a revenge killer, you are not looking to hit everything neutral, you're trying to hit whatever you came in on Super Effective. While this does leave you very susceptible, sometimes you've just got to do what you've got to do.

 

[panamaxis]

Awesome thread RaikouLover. I have to agree that garchomp was one of the best scarfers, it still outspeed DD mence and gyara and lucario's +2 Extremespeed didnt KO.

Yeah, Tyranitar is probably the best choice bander, followed up by snorlax in second, probably the only reason I would use CB lax over tyranitar is if sandstorm harmed my other pokemon too much.

 

[wildfire393]

It also seems like something important is being neglected here: Trick. It's mentioned on a couple of the Specs sets, but for the most part, it is not talked about. The reason Scarfers are being used so much these days is really due to TrickScarf. Being a very fast (usually special) attacker is good, and can sweep weakened teams on its own. But the ability to also have the option to cripple opposing walls is just brutal.

 

[zorbees]

For example, say you choose Choice Specs Heatran, and you opt to put Hidden Power Electric on it to deter Gyarados switch ins.. Bad idea. Why? A Timid Choice Specs Heatran will hit offensive Gyarados 44-53%, and bulky Gyarados for 37-44%.

Can a +1 HP Electric, with Heatran's high SpA, really do such a pitiful amount of damage to a 4x weak opponent?

I'm fairly sure he means with Fire Blast, not Hidden Power.

 

[Syberia]

I get 29-35% against 0/0 Gyarados with Fire Blast. With Flash Fire active I get numbers that match his, but you can't always assume you'll have Flash Fire activated.

HP Electric does 85-100% to 0/0 Gyara, which is always an OHKO with Stealth Rock.