Choice Band/Specs

Demoness

Demoness

With a Choice Scarf thread made, it seems logical for a Choice Band/Specs thread to also be made. While Choice Band and Choice Specs may not have been given a new lease on life, I think some good talk can come out of this.

(I got Genny's approval to post this)

choiceband.png

Description
Quote:
The user gains a 50% increase to Attack, but can only use the first move selected until it switches out or has its Choice Band removed. This boost does not count as a stat change. If this item is replaced with another Choice item, such as by Trick or Switcheroo, then the user will not be locked into their original choice. If the holder is locked into a non-attacking move and is Taunted, they will use Struggle. If the holder is runs out of PP for the attack they are locked into, they will use Struggle, but if the PP for that move is restored by an Elixir or Leppa Berry, they can select a new attack. If a Pokemon obtains a Choice item after using an attack, they will be locked into that attack. If Magic Room is used while a Choice-locked Pokemon is on the field, then the Pokemon can switch attacks, but once Magic Room ceases to take effect, they are again locked on the move they were originally locked in on before Magic Room was used.
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Choice Band was the first Choice item, being introduced in RS. Its power boost was a god-send for many physical Pokemon, allowing them to bust through physical walls with less hassle, OHKO Pokemon that used to be able to switch in on them, and just in general wreck more shit. The locking effect of Choice Band was a downside, but considering that the only other held items that boosted power were type-specific, and only gave a pitiful 10% power boost, Choice Band became wildly popular.

Skip to DP, and Choice Band was still a popular item, but its usage had declined a good amount. The biggest reason for this would have to be the introduction of Life Orb. In theory, it seems Life Orb is infinitley better than Choice Band: Life Orb boosted the power of a Pokemon's attack by 1.3, only .2 less than Choice Band, boosts both Special and physical moves, and it also let the Pokemon switch moves instead of locking them in. In practice, this theory did not hold true. Life Orb also came with the nasty side effect of sapping 10% of the users HP everytime an attack is used, which severly cuts into the bulk of a Pokemon. Because Choice Band did not do this, bulky, slow Pokemon often went for it because it allowed them to retain their bulk and still hit hard. Even modertley fast Pokemon still used Choice Band because the extra .2 of power actually resulted in more KO's being made. Also, some Pokemon chose to use Choice Band because the power of their STAB moves are so great, they rarely find the need to switch moves, and would relish the extra oomph to their attacks. Common examples of such Pokemon were Metagross, Tyranitar, Heracross, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Scizor, and more.

Fast forward to BW, Choice Band hasn't gotten any worse. If anything, it's actually gotten better. The first thing that jumps to many people's mind when they see talk about Choice Band is either Haxorus or Terrakion. Haxorus, already having a stupidly high base Attack of 147, becomes a fucking wrecking ball with Choice Band, his Outrage 2HKOing even most Steel-types not named Skarmory, Ferrothorn, or Forretress. Terrakion has STAB on Rock and Fighting, which pair up to form an absolutley amazing coverage combo, only being resisted by a handful of Pokemon. Unlike Haxorus, Terrakion has great Speed, which is all the rage in BW, and even has great bulk for switching in on attacks. Other Choice Band users include Landorus, Dragonite, Scizor, Metagross, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine.

choicespecs.png

Description
Quote:
The user gains a 50% increase to Special Attack, but can only use the first move selected until it switches out or has its Choice Specs removed. This boost does not count as a stat change. If this item is replaced with another Choice item, such as by Trick or Switcheroo, then the user will not be locked into their original choice. If the holder is locked into a non-attacking move and is Taunted, they will use Struggle. If the holder is out of PP for the attack they are locked into, they will use Struggle, but if the PP for that move is restored by an Elixir or Leppa Berry, they can select a new attack. If a Pokemon obtains a Choice item after using an attack, they will be locked into that attack. If Magic Room is used while a Choice-locked Pokemon is on the field, then the Pokemon can switch attacks, but once Magic Room ceases to take effect, they are again locked on the move they were originally locked in on before Magic Room was used.
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Choice Specs, like Choice Scarf, was introduced in DP. Much like Choice Band, it faced plenty of competition from Life Orb, and just like with Choice Band, Choice Specs still ended up being used quite a bit. However, unlike with Choice Band, who's best users were mostly powerful, bulky, and slow (with a couple of exceptions), Choice Specs users were generally more frail. Of course, not all Choice Specs users were frail, but the general level of bulkiness was lower. The most obvious problem with Choice Specs came from the fat tub of lard herself, Blissey, she pretty much managed to wall Choice Specs users no problem, unless they happened to be running Trick, or, in rare cases, just 2HKOed Blissey. Choice Specs users who didn't fall into either criteria were still good, but not as much. Of course, if the opposing team didn't have a Blissey or it was killed, powerhouses such as Rotom-A, Magnezone, Starmie, and Zapdos wreaked havoc, while the death machine known as Heatran just incineriated everything, but bulky resists.

Jumping to BW, Choice Specs is seeing around the same amount of use, and some new faces are wearing it. Politoed is one of the most common due to Drizzle, which combines with Choice Specs to create a mostrously powerful Hydro Pump that just lays waste to even resistors. Latios is another common Choice Specs user, and for good reason. STAB Draco Meteor + base 130 Special Attack + Choice Specs = destruction. Hydreigon also employs Choice Specs to great effect. While Hydreigon seems outclassed by Latios, access to an actual Fire-type move, Focus Blast, and Pursuit resistance are more than enough to give Hydreigon a place in OU. Tornadus, while not being OU, is excellent as a Choice Specs user due to having a 120 base power STAB move that is 100% accurate in the rain AND has a 30% chance of confusion. Although it seems with the new powerful Choice Specs users, previous Specs users would be left in the dust, but old favourites such as Rotom-W, Lucario, Starmie, and Heatran are still itching to be used, ready to wreck teams once again.


The most obvious problem with Choice Band/Specs is the locking effect. It allows bulky resistors and immune Pokemon to simply walk in and do as the please. This means that a higher level of prediction is needed in order to effectively utilize Choice items. Havcing U-turn or Volt-switch on your Choice user if possible is always a great idea. It allows for scouting of switch-ins, and allows for a better response to be switched in. Trick is also a valuable tool, because being able to quickly and painlessly cripple a wall with a Choice Band/Specs is amazing, opening up sweeping options.
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Ok, now we get to the fun part, discussion! What do you think is the best Choice Band/Specs user and why? How did the Excadrill and Thundurus ban effect Band and Specs users? Are Choice Band and Specs more or less effective this gen? How much does Team Preview help Choice Band/Specs?
 
best cb user: haxorus - 2hkoes all non-resists (and even some resists!_!) with cb outrage
although noteworthy (and maybe even better!_!) is terrakion - it 2hkoes the meta with its moves - its only "counter" is slowbro

best specs user: tornadus can utilize specs hurricane incredibly well, rotom-w does the same with specs hydro pump, thunder, and volt switch, while the specs'd latis basically 2hko the metagame with the appropriate move (most likely DRACO METEOR)
 
Choice Band Haxorus is absolutely amazing. And then there's the titan of the Ban himself, Scizor with Bullet Punch. Techniloom will soon follow. Technician + STAB Priority + that kind of power equals destruction!

As for Specs, what I found is that many Special Attackers really want the power to switch moves, like Latios, Hydreigon, et cetera. Whenever I use a sun or a rain team, however, I always, ALWAYS give my weather starter the Specs. a base 120 power double STAB fire/water move coming from a Specs'd Politoed or Ninetails is quite strong, and that one move combo is really the only thing Ninetails can do to actually be a threat.
 
One good CB abuser I've found to be useful is CB Spiritomb. Spiritomb has a ton of helpful uses on a team, like Pursuit trapping, priority abuse with Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak, and even spin blocking. It also has decent defenses (unlike Haxorus) and no weaknesses. (too bad he doesn't have many useful resistances and immunities) On stall teams he can be use finish off a weakened team and stop one of stalls biggest nemesisis, CM Reuniclus, cold. On offensive teams, he's an excelent wall breaker, as he can Trick his CB to them and then Pursuit them when they switch out.
Spiritomb is definatly underrated and can be useful on the right team.
 
CB Escavalier is one of my personal favorites, functioning as a stop to Outraging Dragons, demolisher of switch-ins with some hazard support, or a Trick Room sweeper (particularly in Double GBU). Haxorus is brilliant as always, and I'm also itching to try the CB Ferrothorn that got mild hype a few months ago.

Specs Hydreigon is fun too, and Salamence's Special capabilities are one of its exclusive assets in the metagame as well. Honestly I don't use Specs nearly as often as Band though.

CB Spiritomb sounds rather difficult to use since it relies on Sucker Punch for much of its offense, since Choiced Sucker Punch is great setup bait.
 
That's the only thing you got to be careful about. Oh, and don't go trying to sweep with him. He more of a supporter Pokemon that can deal with some common threats should your team be weak to them.
 
Where I think Choice Band really shines this gen is on Trick Room attackers. Rampardos, Aggron, Rypherior, Conkledurr and more can turn from slow, hulking brutes into speedy hulking brutes capable of ripping entire teams appart simply be virtue of their ridiculously powerful STABs. Conkledurr is even useful out of Trick Room thanks to Mach Punch.

I really only ever see Specs on Latios and Politoed these days. Politoed gets it simply because it's one of the only ways to actually make it useful beyond rain support, and Latios because it just plains wrecks everything with Spec'd Draco meteor. I find that Scarf Rotom-W is more common than Specs Rotom-W since it abuses Volt-Switch more effectively, though the occasional one does show up.

Really though, with all the bulky Pokemon and set up sweepers running around this gen getting locked into an attack is frequently deadly. Locking yourself into a ground type attack is more dangerous than ever, with Dragon Dance Dragonite and the Lati@s twins floating about. Ferrothorn is another huge problem for both Specs and Band, since it can come in on all but a few attacks and start throwing up hazards. Still, the power boost from Choice Band and Specs certainly can be an advantage on occasion, but overall I think their usage has declined except on a few specific Pokemon that people have already mentioned.
 
CB Ferrothorn is largely underrated and hits really fucking hard. The lack of a movepool is a drawback but Power whip and gyro ball hit everything hard enough as it is. Bulldoze covers the steel types, and the last move is mainly filler. I tend to run Spikes or Leech Seed in that spot, although something like Explosion could work as well.

Calcs:

252 EVS +Atk nature Bulldoze vs 0/0Magnezone: 460 - 544 (133.72% - 158.14%) OHKO
252 EVS +Atk nature Power Whip vs 120/0Conkeldurr: 270 - 318 (70.87% - 83.46%) Guaranteed 2HKO
252 EVS +Atk nature Bulldoze vs 252/0Ninetales: 326 - 386 (93.14% - 110.29%)OKO with SR
252 EVS +Atk nature Power Whip vs 0/0 Landorus: 282 - 333 (88.40% - 104.39%) Guaranteed OHKO with SR


And then theres the pokemon it hits super effectively.
 
Yea, I tried one of those on an old team I made. It was really nice because of the surprise factor, since people would bring in something to set up on you when they thought you would set up hazards only to be nailed by a powerful attack. The only thing is it's kind of a waste of potential since Ferrothorn gets Spikes, SR, and Leach Seed and can be an extremely effective hazards layer.
 
Hello fellow Genny-approved poster!

I think that as the number of threats in the metagame diminishes, the effectiveness of Choice items will increase. Earlier on in the metagame, there were a ton of threats that, with one turn of setup, could wreck your entire team. However, Excadrill is banned, Garchomp is banned, Thundurus is banned... and stall is getting better, meaning that Choice items are not only getting better but will probably be somewhat of a necessity on teams.

If Quagsire usage increases any more, especially on stall, then Choice items will be needed even more to serve their main role: hitting extremely hard off the bat.

A lot of teams lack that ability and that makes them struggle unless they can set up consistently -- and even then, teams relying on setup have issues with Quagsire.
 
Has anyone tried CB Dusknoir? I was thinking about trying it out but never had the chance. Maybe something like 252 HP / 252 Atk with Shadow Punch / Earthquake / Shadow Sneak / Ice Punch.
 
I've never liked Choice items outside of Scarf. I've found them to be extremely underwhelming in almost all situation. The only case where I've found it acceptable to use a Choice item outside of Scarf is probably Specs Latios and Band Haxorus. It's also pretty easy to see why I prefer them too. The thing is though whenever I end up running a Band or Specs I end up really hating myself for not having Life Orb instead. 10% of my HP and the freedom to change moves? That's so much better. That's why I think it's extremely rare to see Band / Specs users. Why have that super-horrible drawback (stuck in one move) when you could, at exchange for a little less power and your HP, be able to switch moves completely. It's just very baffling to me!
 
Gen. Empoleon said:
I've never liked Choice items outside of Scarf. I've found them to be extremely underwhelming in almost all situation. The only case where I've found it acceptable to use a Choice item outside of Scarf is probably Specs Latios and Band Haxorus. It's also pretty easy to see why I prefer them too. The thing is though whenever I end up running a Band or Specs I end up really hating myself for not having Life Orb instead. 10% of my HP and the freedom to change moves? That's so much better. That's why I think it's extremely rare to see Band / Specs users. Why have that super-horrible drawback (stuck in one move) when you could, at exchange for a little less power and your HP, be able to switch moves completely. It's just very baffling to me!
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well one reason to run choice items is so that you can trick them onto stall; another reason is because that pokemon will switch often and thus, die incredibly quickly with lo. see: scizor and rotom-w
 
Wow, our outlook is different, Gen. Empoleon. For me, I just can't swallow that 10% recoil of Life Orb - I try to avoid it whenever I can, resorting to Lum Berry, resist berries, or one of those 20%-boosting items (Expert Belt, Plates, etc).

I also find Choice Scarf the worst of the choice items, because if I'm getting locked into a move, I'd like to hit as hard as I can, and not getting that 50% power boost is undesirable to me. I try to limit the number of scarfers to 1 (although not resorting to any scarfers would be ideal). The utility of scarfers is undeniable, however.

As far as Specs user, Specs Gastrodon in the Rain is a monster. Unlike other Water Specs mon in Rain, Gastrodon not only gets the double boost from the downpour and 50% boost from Specs, but can also switch into a Water move to further buff its Special attack by yet ANOTHER 50% boost. It has two decently-powered STAB moves to abuse in Surf / Scald and Earth Power, with Ice Beam for solid coverage. HP Grass is reserved only for opposing Gastrodon. This thing can really punch holes in teams.

SpecsGastrodon is no slouch in tanking Special hits, either. If you win the weather war, it still counters non HP Grass Volcarona, still walls Water and Electric mons. CM Jirachi is also a piece of cake.

CB Azumarill is also a monster in Rain, as seen in action by Fatecrasher's DW Tourney team. The extra rain buff makes these choiced Water mons really great in breaking walls and even sweeping.
 
Gen. Empoleon said:
I've never liked Choice items outside of Scarf. I've found them to be extremely underwhelming in almost all situation.
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Both CB and specs allow pokes who can't find set up opportunities to hit harder and try to beat their usual counters. GenIV had initially CBtar because his set up moves were not that good (DD gets revenged really easily and Curse is Lucario set up fodder) and let him had a chance to 2HKO walls like Skarm or Bronzong.

GenIV Alakazam needed something to hit hard right from the bat (like he is gonna run a CM set, lol) because he is so easily revenged or picked off by priority.

SpecsOgre has a chance of 2HKO Blissey at full health. Normally Blissey would wall it but with the added power Kyogre can overcome an almost perfect counter.
 
I usally run band/specs on troll sets. (even tohught rain d-nite with specs hurricane HITS LIKE A TRUCK) or soo far my favorite user banded ferrothorn.
 
Honestly I think Choice Specs and Scarf will see the biggest boost in usage. Scarf for obvious reasons, but the much lower prevalence of Blissey in the metagame makes Specs users far more deadly. There are few pokemon that can universally cover what most special attackers have to offer, so it can be an effective strategy to wear down the opposition.

As for Choice Band, I'd consider Staraptor. It is heavily underrated but it can tear through the metagame with BB/CC/QA/U-Turn alone thanks to its Reckless ability. It is also a rare example where CB may actually be better than LO - it already takes enough recoil as is and will only ever be spamming its STAB or one other (excellent) coverage move.
 
What? Specs, Band, Life Orb, Expert Belt, Wise Glasses, Muscle Band, Plates, and Gems all boost the stat, not the Base Power. You're probably thinking of the in-game description which is never a good thing to do.

Life Orb - Short Description said:
Whenever a Pokemon holding a Life Orb successfully uses a damaging attack, that attack deals 1.3x its normal damage, rounded down, and the attacker loses 1/10 of their maximum HP, even if the opponent is behind a Substitute.
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Gen. Empoleon said:
I've never liked Choice items outside of Scarf. I've found them to be extremely underwhelming in almost all situation. The only case where I've found it acceptable to use a Choice item outside of Scarf is probably Specs Latios and Band Haxorus. It's also pretty easy to see why I prefer them too. The thing is though whenever I end up running a Band or Specs I end up really hating myself for not having Life Orb instead. 10% of my HP and the freedom to change moves? That's so much better. That's why I think it's extremely rare to see Band / Specs users. Why have that super-horrible drawback (stuck in one move) when you could, at exchange for a little less power and your HP, be able to switch moves completely. It's just very baffling to me!
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While I agree that Life Orb is usually superior, Choice Band/Specs are useable, especially when you have the element of surprise. For example, I've used a Choice Band Gyarados; many people immediately switch in their DD Gyara counter, something like Jolteon, let's say, only to get obliterated by a 1.5x STAB Waterfall. Choice Items are also superior against some stall teams; the extra power can muscle through some walls (CB Gyara can 2HKO SpD Skarmory, something LO variants can't do) and you don't lose health every time you attack. Many users can also trick their Choice items onto walls, disabling them for the rest of the match. Paired with a good Rapid Spinner, Choice Items can be stall's worst nightmare.

Granted, Gyarados probably isn't the greatest Choice user thanks to the prominence of Jellicent and Gastrodon, but he still illustrates my point.
 
NixHex,
Whenever a Pokemon holding a Life Orb successfully uses a damaging attack, that attack deals 1.3x its normal damage, rounded down, and the attacker loses 1/10 of their maximum HP, even if the opponent is behind a Substitute.
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The user gains a 50% increase to Attack, but can only use the first move selected until it switches out or has its Choice Band removed. This boost does not count as a stat change.
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That's what he meant.
 
Something thats often overlooked about Choice Band/ Choice Specs is how effectively they can be used defensively. Your immediate response to that is most certainly NWO is an idiot, but I'll explain.

Choice Band/ Specs pack incredible power, and put a ton of offensive pressure on the opponent. However, one of the biggest problems with them is misprediction. For example you are using a Choice Band Dragonite and come in against Heatran, your opponent has a Salamence in the wings. If you opt to Outrage, and Heatran stays in, the opponent can screw up Dragonite big time with Toxic or Will-o-Wisp. If you opt to Earthquake, and the opponent switches to Salamence, you are suddenly faced with tremendous offensive pressure.

Here's where the use of Band/ Spes on a defensive minded team has its boons. Choice Band and Choice Specs are bound to force a ton of switches, nobody wants to eat CB Close Combats and Specs Hydro Pumps, and the opponent will inevitably switch to a resist. But coupled with heavy entry hazards, this can be heavily abused, especially on stall teams which rely heavily on hazards and phazing to deal damage. Band/ Specs act as pseudo phazing, allowing you to slowly beat down opposing pokemon throughout the course of a match. The opponent is now faced with the decision: do I want my pokemon in right now to die, or do I want to switch, take 30% just for coming in and potentially be KOed the next time round?

This strategy can be employed very easily on a pseudo stall team. Stack up entry hazards early on, then get in a Band/ Specs user to put tremendous offensive pressure on the opponent. This is especially useful against the bulky sweepers that often give stall teams trouble. These offensive threats can be worn down throughout the course of a match from entry hazards or being forced to eat powerful moves. With Band/ Specs, even resisted attacks are going to put huge dents into most pokes. Stunt Stall is a great exemplar.

The best part about abusing Band/ Specs on a defensive natured team is that you eliminate one of the items' biggest problems: prediction. Now, you wont have to take risks such as Lucario staying in on Terrakion's X-Scissor and sweeping your team because. You can safely make the obvious move with relatively few consequences. If Lucario stays in, its gonna die. If Mew comes in, it'll be punished with 37.5% from entry hazards and be 2HKOd anyways. All in all, Choice Band and Choice Specs make threats to defensive minded teams much easier to deal with.
 
New World Order said:
Something thats often overlooked about Choice Band/ Choice Specs is how effectively they can be used defensively. Your immediate response to that is most certainly NWO is an idiot, but I'll explain.

Choice Band/ Specs pack incredible power, and put a ton of offensive pressure on the opponent. However, one of the biggest problems with them is misprediction. For example you are using a Choice Band Dragonite and come in against Heatran, your opponent has a Salamence in the wings. If you opt to Outrage, and Heatran stays in, the opponent can screw up Dragonite big time with Toxic or Will-o-Wisp. If you opt to Earthquake, and the opponent switches to Salamence, you are suddenly faced with tremendous offensive pressure.

Here's where the use of Band/ Spes on a defensive minded team has its boons. Choice Band and Choice Specs are bound to force a ton of switches, nobody wants to eat CB Close Combats and Specs Hydro Pumps, and the opponent will inevitably switch to a resist. But coupled with heavy entry hazards, this can be heavily abused, especially on stall teams which rely heavily on hazards and phazing to deal damage. Band/ Specs act as pseudo phazing, allowing you to slowly beat down opposing pokemon throughout the course of a match. The opponent is now faced with the decision: do I want my pokemon in right now to die, or do I want to switch, take 30% just for coming in and potentially be KOed the next time round?

This strategy can be employed very easily on a pseudo stall team. Stack up entry hazards early on, then get in a Band/ Specs user to put tremendous offensive pressure on the opponent. This is especially useful against the bulky sweepers that often give stall teams trouble. These offensive threats can be worn down throughout the course of a match from entry hazards or being forced to eat powerful moves. With Band/ Specs, even resisted attacks are going to put huge dents into most pokes. Stunt Stall is a great exemplar.

The best part about abusing Band/ Specs on a defensive natured team is that you eliminate one of the items' biggest problems: prediction. Now, you wont have to take risks such as Lucario staying in on Terrakion's X-Scissor and sweeping your team because. You can safely make the obvious move with relatively few consequences. If Lucario stays in, its gonna die. If Mew comes in, it'll be punished with 37.5% from entry hazards and be 2HKOd anyways. All in all, Choice Band and Choice Specs make threats to defensive minded teams much easier to deal with.
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Yah know, I think this is actually a pretty good point. In addition to forcing switches, you can also chose your Pokemon that you're using Band on to help you deal with specific threats that Stall teams hate, such as Reuniclus, since you'll actually have a way of dealing direct damage to your opponents.
 
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