On the fence about the ban right now but I think different tera options besides dark should be explored, especially on sd boots sets. These teras and builds kinda invalidate all mentioned checks outside of dozo, who basically always beats boots pao no matter what. I think if it was just the tera dark sets I would 100% vote do not ban, but after using other tera type(s) it feels like he can choose to beat all but one or two counters with each set he brings. A lot of the mons that you would put on your team only situationally counter is probably the biggest concern, zama beats pao unless its sword then the hp threshold is way lower, the birds beat it unless they get flinched or a crunch defense drop, dozo wins but it has to drop so much else as Leo said. All that being said it still doesn't feel oppressive, at least not oppressive enough to ban comparing it to other pokemon that did get banned. You can use the same tera argument I brought up against Zacian for example, where things that in theory should beat it lose to certain Teras. The big thing there is that both common zacian teras (fire and ground) make it weak to common attackers, while pao has the same issue, he can use things like sucker punch/ice shard to beat out jet punch or scarfers which does limit the offensive counterplay a bit. Sorry if it was really rambly its almost 2am for me but I just wanted to get some ideas and thoughts out about Pao so we can make the best decision for the metagame.
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Announcement Chien-Pao Suspect Test
- Thread starter Imperial
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On the fence about the ban right now but I think different tera options besides dark should be explored, especially on sd boots sets. These teras and builds kinda invalidate all mentioned checks outside of dozo, who basically always beats boots pao no matter what. I think if it was just the tera dark sets I would 100% vote do not ban, but after using other tera type(s) it feels like he can choose to beat all but one or two counters with each set he brings. A lot of the mons that you would put on your team only situationally counter is probably the biggest concern, zama beats pao unless its sword then the hp threshold is way lower, the birds beat it unless they get flinched or a crunch defense drop, dozo wins but it has to drop so much else as Leo said. All that being said it still doesn't feel oppressive, at least not oppressive enough to ban comparing it to other pokemon that did get banned. You can use the same tera argument I brought up against Zacian for example, where things that in theory should beat it lose to certain Teras. The big thing there is that both common zacian teras (fire and ground) make it weak to common attackers, while pao has the same issue, he can use things like sucker punch/ice shard to beat out jet punch or scarfers which does limit the offensive counterplay a bit. Sorry if it was really rambly its almost 2am for me but I just wanted to get some ideas and thoughts out about Pao so we can make the best decision for the metagame.
confirming as uubelg1 desudeath
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Just picked up this tier, super fun! Will definitely be sticking around. Anyways, here's my reqs for Pao suspect.
Edit - Paste: https://pokepast.es/4ade21afa37951da Thanks to Dorron for the original team, which I used as a basis for getting into the meta and then edited. ^-^
Edit - Paste: https://pokepast.es/4ade21afa37951da Thanks to Dorron for the original team, which I used as a basis for getting into the meta and then edited. ^-^
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Locking my account
Finally, suspects really get on my nerves with the rng
I´m currently leaning towards no ban right now, but I´m on the fence, right now Chien-Pao doesnt even feel that good to use, yes there aren´t many good counters, but when you see teams with Magearna+Zacian every other game (even before Pao arrived), it can start feeling like dead weight, as virtually any attack or status is game over for it, plus with the difficulty of removing hazards, Choiced Variants will quickly have to run from priority.
Boots SD sets can sweep complete teams, but the will need to somehow find a safe turn to set up, to have chipped Zacian into priority range (if you have Ice Shard, otherwise it must have died already), and also Magearna unless you use tera blast ground or fire, and have eliminated any pesky priority, doable, but at that point I think you´ve earnt the w.
Honestly, it´s not too outside of our power level, while it´s definetely meta dependant, Palafin and Iron Bundle, which were quickbanned from OU, are now very reasonable in UUbers, while Chien-Pao took months.
That being said, while I don´t know how much support I´d have, I think Zacian should also be suspected, as it´s extremely centralising and mandatory on most teamstyles, likewise forcing most teams to run Magearna (or Solgaleo, but it doesnt enjoy Crunch). If we got it banned, then we´d kind of have to suspect Pao again. It would be a ban vote where, I wouldn´t actually think it´s op, just unhealthy, like the Espathra ban from OU.
Boots SD sets can sweep complete teams, but the will need to somehow find a safe turn to set up, to have chipped Zacian into priority range (if you have Ice Shard, otherwise it must have died already), and also Magearna unless you use tera blast ground or fire, and have eliminated any pesky priority, doable, but at that point I think you´ve earnt the w.
Honestly, it´s not too outside of our power level, while it´s definetely meta dependant, Palafin and Iron Bundle, which were quickbanned from OU, are now very reasonable in UUbers, while Chien-Pao took months.
That being said, while I don´t know how much support I´d have, I think Zacian should also be suspected, as it´s extremely centralising and mandatory on most teamstyles, likewise forcing most teams to run Magearna (or Solgaleo, but it doesnt enjoy Crunch). If we got it banned, then we´d kind of have to suspect Pao again. It would be a ban vote where, I wouldn´t actually think it´s op, just unhealthy, like the Espathra ban from OU.
Before Pao arrived Magearna and Zacian had actually been down in usage by a lot. If you check the usage stats from before December you'll see how it has been goind down as new pokemon were introduced. However, with Pao in the tier, I expect them to shoot up in usage once again.
You also have to consider Dugtrio and trapping, since Dugtrio's usage has definitely increased and the value of trapping Magearna to enable Pao is incredible. Pao is also incredibly good at enabling other offensive threats by forcing out Teras on pokemon like Giratina (So now Ekiller or DD Poisoneus win, for example).
If Zacian gets banned, then I think we'll see an uptake in offensive structures as Zacian is one of the three things keeping Balance alive rn. It is worth noting that Magearna and Solgaleo (Although Solgaleo sucks with Pao in the tier) are pokemon you'd run anyways, same with Landorus-T. Generally it does force you to run a scarfer or a faster pokemon, but idk how much of an argument it is.
Is the council considering other quickbans or suspects in the near future?, especially for Zacian or trapping.
For Zacian? No way. not even close
for trapping? Unlikely.
Sorry for the delay, Chien-Pao voting is now up! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ubers-uu-suspect-2-chien-pao.3740114/
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