As I mentioned earlier, Spiky Shield + Roar + Spikes + Hammer Arm does stuff to Defoggers with contact moves if they're using Focus Sash or have Sturdy. Chesnaught also has enough bulk with Leftovers to drag foes across Spikes with Roar for a few turns, and can use Spiky Shield for free Leftovers recovery during its hazard dragging.
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Pokémon Chesnaught (Revamp Occurring)
- Thread starter Psylink
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Am I making claims. NO. I'm responding to AOPSUsers claims. Are any of his arguments, good arguments? Some yes, but he just keeps arguing that you can use prediction, which somehow makes Chesnaught less viable than say Ferrothorn. You tell me? Can Ferrothorn, Forretress or Chesnaught prevent Defog?
Then you might wanna get something capable of handling a defogger. He does not have to be the one. Use him to take on pokes that he is meant to take on, and he will do just fine. Use one of your other five to remove those very specific threats, and use him to both counter what needs to be countered, and Spike when he has the wide open opportunity.
My issue with your arguments stems on you saying that he is either taking on threats that he is established on having no place taking (such as Greninja, which is particularly tiresome seeing as this discussion was had - and debunked - a few pages ago) and/or acting as if those flaws are so damning that they eradicate any of his positives, and any hope for him to be used in OU.
He will not be used constantly in OU. If you are using him, you are playing to his specific strengths. Those strengths, as it were, are quite valuable for a niche mon such as itself. Those flaws are not as bad as it seems because in order to even consider having him on your team, they should have been handled already. Along with setting Spikes, he craps on a couple potent OU threats, while being able to Phaze at the same time. He doesn't just wall them, he outright hard counters them cold. He fears no Ferrothorn, and I'm not quite sure what Forretress can do to him. Starmie gives him trouble, but if you are using a physically bulky spiker, it's assumed that it is handled already. Cool, others can do something to somewhat inconvenience Skarmory, but...that's not really a huge deal. What he can and can't do has been discussed repeatably in this thread, and I'm a tad surprised that those that discussed it aren't popping up to add to the convo as well.
No offense meteor, but...I don't really care all too much on Mandibuzz. Sure, it can threaten Chesto, but it does that to others, I suppose. But that was never really my discussion in the first place. I'm not sure why I'm even bringing it up now, so...yeah.
You don't need to prevent the Defog if you can T-Wave the Crobat to make it useless for the rest of the match. You can then just reset your Spikes.
Or you can pivot out with Volt Switch to something that can destroy the Defogger hard, like Tyranitar, which can trap Crobat with Pursuit even if it has U-Turn.
Whereas with Chesnaught Crobat can simply predict the switch and U-Turn out of Tyranitar once it comes in.
I never said once that you would ever be using him for Greninja. If you are using him for that you are an idiot.
It's not about handling the Defogger, it's about how easily it Defogs your hazards. For Chesnaught, it's easier than for any other Spiker because the Chesnaught user is forced to switch.
Forretress is a Spinner, it will Spin away his hazards. After that it can just switch to whatever special attacker they have.
Let's say you have something that handles Starmie. You have to switch when it comes in, and then it can either Spin or predict the switch. Spinning nullifies your hazards already.
Yes, Chesnaught craps on some stuff like Excadrill and Ferrothorn, but he does not trap them and they are free to come and go as they wish. If you switch in on Excadrill you can't even prevent a Spin anyways, and you can't get rid of Ferro's hazards. After you come in they switch to Talonflame and you are forced right out.
I haven't seen more than one Mandibuzz on the OU ladder yet, but people are using it. At the very least if you have a decent team you won't get walled by one I guess.
I have tried to use Chesnaught in the past in OU, and I can say that it is hard to use. Even Chesnaught+TTar is crapped on by Talonflame+Dugtrio cores, which I and many others use. When I used Chesnaught, I was constantly trying to pivot in and out with him, because the opponent kept switching in their Crobat. Or their Aegislash. Or their Talonflame. Heck, even the other Spikers have this problem, but Chesnaught has it with the top three mons of OU+Crobat and Skarmory, and 70+% of teams currently have one of those. Against those teams I never have the time to set up more than one layer of Spikes.
Plus Chesnaught is just as much Taunt bait as the other Spikers really, Sableye and Taunt Mega Gengar, especially Taunt Mega Gengar, ruin him if you're running Hammer Arm as your only attacking move. Forretress at least has Volt Switch.
I have to say that Chesnaught is on my competitive team right now, and is a great wall, and saved my team from many physical threats in the long run. He dealt with a lot of threats that could've swept my team, and he stalled them out and defeated them. He works really well, and even though he may be not as popular when compared to forretress, but I really like him, and thinks he is a VERY viable Pokemon in OU
P.S Caught some guy with a M Gengar totally off-guard, when he couldn't hit him at all.
P.S Caught some guy with a M Gengar totally off-guard, when he couldn't hit him at all.
Then I must question your usage of Chesnaught in those scenarios. The only thing that I can possibly agree with is your point on Talonflame with Dugtrio. Given the team make-up, I find it rather difficult to believe that you were using him as the physical tank that he is, without being able to predict the obvious Crobat or Talonflame switch-in. Were you switching in on those as they came in? Were they switching in as you were setting up Spikes? Did you not have Stealth Rocks up on the field, which a few of his partners tend to carry?
If you're just throwing him in your party for the sole reason of setting up Spikes, then you're going to have to consider why you should use him instead of every other Spiker, and it is possible that he simply didn't fit into your team. Considering the success that is reported on this thread by other users, that may as well be the case. However, if you are using him to not only set up Spikes, but check & tank specific threats, which he is able to do better than not only (certain) other Spikers (which to be fair, isn't really their main job), but with an actual healing move that Forretress and Ferrothorn would kill for. Forretress has Volt Switch. Good for him, and he uses it well (most certainly not as a main offensive option - it is rather weak), however he also has a host of issues himself. And any other spinner can accomplish what you've just mentioned; not one of the hazard setters can reliably stop a spinner from doing their job. If you're that worried about Talonflame, by all means, give him Stone Edge over Roar/Leech Seed.
The issues you've laid out is what keeps him from being an OU staple. His pluses are what make him very much OU viable, which is the general consensus in this thread.
And...I mentioned Greninja because you did, for whatever reason.
If you're just throwing him in your party for the sole reason of setting up Spikes, then you're going to have to consider why you should use him instead of every other Spiker, and it is possible that he simply didn't fit into your team. Considering the success that is reported on this thread by other users, that may as well be the case. However, if you are using him to not only set up Spikes, but check & tank specific threats, which he is able to do better than not only (certain) other Spikers (which to be fair, isn't really their main job), but with an actual healing move that Forretress and Ferrothorn would kill for. Forretress has Volt Switch. Good for him, and he uses it well (most certainly not as a main offensive option - it is rather weak), however he also has a host of issues himself. And any other spinner can accomplish what you've just mentioned; not one of the hazard setters can reliably stop a spinner from doing their job. If you're that worried about Talonflame, by all means, give him Stone Edge over Roar/Leech Seed.
The issues you've laid out is what keeps him from being an OU staple. His pluses are what make him very much OU viable, which is the general consensus in this thread.
And...I mentioned Greninja because you did, for whatever reason.
Hello friends, so I'm running a SubSeed Chesnaught(inb4 terrible idea), and I was wondering if Big Root would be a cool item to use over Leftovers. Could I please get your thoughts on this?
Sometimes when your opponent puts offensive pressure on you you fail to find time to set up any hazards. Or use Synthesis. That's one of the biggest downfalls of any defensive mon.
Chesnaught just can't find time to do anything against a team with an Aegislash, Greninja, or Talonflame. Considering that those three mons, plus other stuff that kills him like Gliscor, Skarmory, Crobat, etc. are used on like 80% of all OU teams, I found it quite hard to find time to do anything.
Of course I used SR whenever possible. But if the opponent can kill my SR setter with their lead, if my opponent gets a free switchin to a troublesom set-up sweeper if I use SR, if whatever, then I couldn't set up SR. With Chesnaught, these opportunities are even more common--even with SR up you can't give free switchins to Aegislash. Or Skarmory. Or Gliscor. I had even lost to a fair number of Excadrills, because they spin as Chesnaught comes in, then switch into their Talonflame or whatever. You cannot stop Excadrill from Spinning unless you are already on the field, in which case Excadrill is not coming in. I actually found myself having to use Gourgeist to stop Excadrill from Spinning my Spikes, and wasn't Chesnaught supposed to beat Excadrill?
I cited Greninja because Chesnaught is pressured and beaten and forced out by the top three mons in OU, one of which is Greninja. Against those 30% of teams with Greninja you have to randomly throw out Hammer Arms in fear of Greninja, which gives you even less opportunities to Spike.
What forces out Chesnaught easily in upper OU:
-Aegislash
-Greninja (can't switch in on Hammer Arm)
-Talonflame (can't switch in on Stone Edge)
-Gengar (If running Hidden Power or Icy Wind)
-Goodra (Can't take too many Hammer Arms)
-Azumarill
-Noivern (can't switch in on Stone Edge)
-Alakazam (can't switch in)
-Dragonite (can't switch in on Stone Edge+SR)
-Gliscor
-Charizard (can't switch in on Stone Edge)
-Trevenant
-Sylveon
-Gyarados (can't take many Stone Edges)
That's just the top 25 of OU.
What Chesnaught forces out/beats:
-Gengar without Taunt, Icy Wind, and Hidden Power. Only damages Gengars with Stone Edge.
-Ferrothorn
-Tyranitar
-Excadrill
-Physical non-Mega Lucario
-Smeargle (lol why do people use this thing)
Toss-ups:
-Scizor
-Klefki
-Garchomp
-Rotom-W (dat Wisp)
-Mega Lucario or Special Lucario
-Kangaskhan
-Malamar (why do people use this thing)
So...yeah. In terms of the top OU meta, there's a bunch of stuff that beats Chesnaught, so it's switching out of all of them. Therefore, it'll be hard-pressed to find much time. If he uses Stone Edge he loses even harder to stuff like Aegislash and bulky/Mega Gyarados, but if he doesn't then there's a bunch of more stuff that beats him. Not to mention, you have to hit them on the switch since they are faster than you. And if you mispredict, you just revealed your ace in the hole. That's why he is currently hard to use in OU. Note that I never said unviable.
New to competitive battling. Have been using this set recently with Chesnaught.
Chesnaught
ability: Bulletproof
nature: Adamant / Impish
item: Rocky Helmet
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Swagger / Taunt / Spikes
move 3: Spiky Shield
move 4: Wood Hammer / Hammer Arm
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Have gone with Swagger over Taunt and Spikes recently as things generally attack Chesnaught regardless of Taunt and I'm finding SR more viable than Spikes at the moment (although it can get off multiple layers of Spikes once you've taken out the opposition Defog/Spinner). Generally works on any physical non-flying attacker and has enough bulk to Confuse or Seed a special attacker before Shielding for health or damage and then switching out.
I've been using Wood Hammer over Hammer Arm for preference really. Find it helps me take down more when residual damage isn't enough.
Chesnaught
ability: Bulletproof
nature: Adamant / Impish
item: Rocky Helmet
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Swagger / Taunt / Spikes
move 3: Spiky Shield
move 4: Wood Hammer / Hammer Arm
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Have gone with Swagger over Taunt and Spikes recently as things generally attack Chesnaught regardless of Taunt and I'm finding SR more viable than Spikes at the moment (although it can get off multiple layers of Spikes once you've taken out the opposition Defog/Spinner). Generally works on any physical non-flying attacker and has enough bulk to Confuse or Seed a special attacker before Shielding for health or damage and then switching out.
I've been using Wood Hammer over Hammer Arm for preference really. Find it helps me take down more when residual damage isn't enough.
This is more comprehensive, and yet still debatable. Everything that beats him (other than Aegislash; he does indeed has a way to fight back against it with either Leech Seed + Synthesis, or simply Phazing it with Roar, and Shadow Ball is useless) is meant to be taken out by other pokes. They will give him trouble, the same way they give many things a hard time, and he is no worse for wear. What he does handle, he handles well, and that is why you add him to your team. There are many OU/OU viable Pokemon with his exact issue; look at Forretress page, you'll see it's also fairly damning, despite the heaps of praise. If used right, he should not act anything close to a liability.
He threatens Excadrill. But nothing other than a ghost can stop it from spinning. That's a negative on all hazard mons, and I never stated that him being able to handle Exca equates to him having the ability to stop him from spinning. He shares many faults with Ferrothorn, Forretress and the like, in that he cannot stop something from removing his hazards, which is why you get a teammate who can.
Listing the things that forces him out of OU, unless you are simply listing negatives, is not enough to erase his positives. The thing with this mon is that you will not find everything that will beat him on the same team at once. His typing and unique ability means that there are things that he will be able to switch on and go for the Spikes (I'm going crazy on the italics, finally figured out how to use it on the keyboard). If he can only get one set up at a time, so be it. If Talonflame, Greninja, Slyveon, etc, comes in and scares him away, well, you've gotten your first layer of Spikes up. Do you go for prediction and use Leech Seed/Roar instead of Spikes if you suspect the counter switch? If it's Skarmory, then switch into your Mon that destroys Skar. If it Defogs (since you lack Magnezone, a great pair with Chesnaught), then you know that you'll need to get rid of Skar. You may be able to pivot with Forry or paralyze with Ferro, but you can't stop it from Defogging (cept in Ferro's case, he does more than that; still, chalk one up for those two). His only thing stopping him from actually completing his job are Defoggers, and you are using him with the assumption that you have them handled. And that's just Spiking. You can also use him to check other threats out there. He can tank many a physical hit, phase certain set-uppers, Seed when you don't want him phasing, and Hammer Arm to defend himself, which is better than whatever offensive options my man Ferro has on him (@#$% fairies, though). He can come in as an unconventional tank to Aegislash, as looking back, there is nothing it can do to get rid of Chesty outright other than out-predict him.
If you are using him, it is because you need him for something that no other spiker can do. If you're not, you're wasting your time.
I can do the same trick to many OU mons that aren't considered broken in their own right, but that won't get me anywhere. If you are using him, it is in spite of his flaws, and playing to his many strengths, which you tend to downplay.
(I apologize, I'm lax on Trevenant info, what exactly does it do to scare him away?)
He threatens Excadrill. But nothing other than a ghost can stop it from spinning. That's a negative on all hazard mons, and I never stated that him being able to handle Exca equates to him having the ability to stop him from spinning. He shares many faults with Ferrothorn, Forretress and the like, in that he cannot stop something from removing his hazards, which is why you get a teammate who can.
Listing the things that forces him out of OU, unless you are simply listing negatives, is not enough to erase his positives. The thing with this mon is that you will not find everything that will beat him on the same team at once. His typing and unique ability means that there are things that he will be able to switch on and go for the Spikes (I'm going crazy on the italics, finally figured out how to use it on the keyboard). If he can only get one set up at a time, so be it. If Talonflame, Greninja, Slyveon, etc, comes in and scares him away, well, you've gotten your first layer of Spikes up. Do you go for prediction and use Leech Seed/Roar instead of Spikes if you suspect the counter switch? If it's Skarmory, then switch into your Mon that destroys Skar. If it Defogs (since you lack Magnezone, a great pair with Chesnaught), then you know that you'll need to get rid of Skar. You may be able to pivot with Forry or paralyze with Ferro, but you can't stop it from Defogging (cept in Ferro's case, he does more than that; still, chalk one up for those two). His only thing stopping him from actually completing his job are Defoggers, and you are using him with the assumption that you have them handled. And that's just Spiking. You can also use him to check other threats out there. He can tank many a physical hit, phase certain set-uppers, Seed when you don't want him phasing, and Hammer Arm to defend himself, which is better than whatever offensive options my man Ferro has on him (@#$% fairies, though). He can come in as an unconventional tank to Aegislash, as looking back, there is nothing it can do to get rid of Chesty outright other than out-predict him.
If you are using him, it is because you need him for something that no other spiker can do. If you're not, you're wasting your time.
I can do the same trick to many OU mons that aren't considered broken in their own right, but that won't get me anywhere. If you are using him, it is in spite of his flaws, and playing to his many strengths, which you tend to downplay.
(I apologize, I'm lax on Trevenant info, what exactly does it do to scare him away?)
Trevenant is Ghost-type for one, so it's immune to Hammer Arm. It also resists Chesnaught's other STAB, being Grass-type, and is similarly immune to Leech Seed. It also likes to use Curse + Sitrus Berry combined with Harvest for easy damage that can force almost anything out, and wastes turns with Phantom Force, Substitute, and Horn Leech/Protect while waiting for Harvest to kick in (50% activation rate each round). The darn thing is just obnoxious at stalling while slowly killing you with Curse damage.
If Hammer Arm is going to lower your speed anyway, why not use Curse? Hammer Arm/ Payback/ Spiky Shield or Leech Seed/ Curse
Because it has bulk up meaning it doesnt have to curse to get the same boosts. Unless you plan to run trick room, I dont see the point.
I dont know why this keeps coming up, but a 1v1 with aegislash is a toss up. Aegislash only wins with swords dance and iron head and good prediction or flash canon on a mixed or special set. Chesnaught wins every other scenario because of spiky shield and ls or eq.
I wonder, is there any merit to using Brick Break over Hammer Arm? Less power for sure, but gives the added benefit of breaking screens and doesn't lower speed.
Might be a long shot though.
Might be a long shot though.
If you need the accuracy gain and you are using a supportive chesnaught, I dont see why you couldnt use brick break. It all comes down to what your team needs more though: power or utility.
M Gengar will be banned so forget about it
I have been using Chesnaught in my stall team for a while, the issue is that he compete with Gourgiest for a teamslot as a grass pokemon, which happens to be a rare defensive spin blocker, losing only two resistence of rock and dark which are not really that common(I disregard Stone miss, and you don't really have that much dark pokemon to worry about)
As a spike/roar you compete with Skarmory, which does not have the gimmick weaknesses(you screwes the sludge bomb users though). Certainly the two are quite distinct in a lot of ways, but sharing the weakness of fire does put them on the same line more often than you think
Chest screws some important threat really well so he is likely to be a very viable OU team candidate(I laugh so many times when your opponent watching you littering spikes all around, forced to switch out to only take a roar into his face). However, I doubt Chest will even make UU at the end as it is too niche to be solid
Btw, for any offensive sets ppl better take a look on Broom first before making quick decisions
Actually, a +2 Iron Head from Aegislash is merely a 2HKO...not counting leftovers. You can switch in and Roar his ass out. He can't take a Flash Cannon, forgot about that.
I think he may have a measure of success in UU. He can afford to stretch his options out a bit more. He may even be able to rock an Assault Vest there. I'm interested in discussing his UU potential, but...I'm not very knowledgeable in UU affairs.
I think he may have a measure of success in UU. He can afford to stretch his options out a bit more. He may even be able to rock an Assault Vest there. I'm interested in discussing his UU potential, but...I'm not very knowledgeable in UU affairs.
The problem with UU are the abundant fire types. Victini, arcanine, chandelure, and maybe delphox are all major threats in UU. Pairing chesnaught with a milotic and a rhyperior could become a thing though. Sadly the lack of tyranitar to buddy with in UU is an unfortunate downfall.
Is there any potential to a Bulk Up set? I assume there's a reason everyone's talking about possible defensive sets instead of bulky offensive sets, but I'm not really sure why. Is it just outclassed by other bulk up users?
Also, I'm new here. Hi.
Also, I'm new here. Hi.
Its ouclassed by conkeldor offensively and doesnt get drain punch. If you were to run synthesis, bulk up, hammer arm and maybe woodhammer or stone edge, it could still be really potent. This is however a really nice defensive pokemon that can act as a defensive pivot/wall of sorts.
Welcome to smogon btw! :)
Ok, so I may not be a huge influence on this argument, however, I'd like to say some things.
chestnaught is on my current team that I am testing. This is the set I run:
Chestnaught@leftovers
Adamant
EV's:252 Hp/240 Def/16 Atk
-spikey shield
-swords dance
-hammer arm
-payback
Granted, I'm only in the 1300-1400 rank at the moment, it's worked quite well for me. It's my biggest counter to M-Khan, as it can take a double return (assuming no boosts), and retaliate with hammer arm, also, spikey shield will do 1/4 damage to khans life because it hits twice.
If you can manage to set up a swords dance, you can pretty much kill everything that takes super effective damage. It destroys ageslash with payback, and can easily take a +2 shadow sneak. Anyways, that's how I've been using it, and I feel it's more useful than all this spike madness. I think just about every other spike setter upper outclasses him. That's just my 2 cents, I don't want to start more arguments, just some food for thought
While I don't think he'll be OU, it definitely could be a big threat in uu
chestnaught is on my current team that I am testing. This is the set I run:
Chestnaught@leftovers
Adamant
EV's:252 Hp/240 Def/16 Atk
-spikey shield
-swords dance
-hammer arm
-payback
Granted, I'm only in the 1300-1400 rank at the moment, it's worked quite well for me. It's my biggest counter to M-Khan, as it can take a double return (assuming no boosts), and retaliate with hammer arm, also, spikey shield will do 1/4 damage to khans life because it hits twice.
If you can manage to set up a swords dance, you can pretty much kill everything that takes super effective damage. It destroys ageslash with payback, and can easily take a +2 shadow sneak. Anyways, that's how I've been using it, and I feel it's more useful than all this spike madness. I think just about every other spike setter upper outclasses him. That's just my 2 cents, I don't want to start more arguments, just some food for thought
While I don't think he'll be OU, it definitely could be a big threat in uu
Spiky Shield doesn't deal damage for every hit of multi-hit attacks, though.
It doesn't? I could've sworn it lost health both times
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