CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[DetroitLolcat]

PttP's leading question was all about Aegislash, so that's what I'm going to address. I've been teetering on the fence about Bulletproof, but recent discussions on IRC have made me believe that Bulletproof is a great Ability for CAP 18. Yes, it's an Ability that serves to defeat only one set on one Pokemon, but that one set happens to be both arguably the best set on any Pokemon in the metagame and unarguably the most threatening set to our core. Furthermore, there is no other step in the process where we can deal with Aegislash as well as we can during Primary Ability. Aegislash is a great Pokemon because of its tremendous Special Attack to go along with its Attack and because this metagame is much, much better equipped to handle Physical attackers than Special attackers.

Right now our core has two Pokemon that provide free switches to Aegislash. I would be hard-pressed to justify using Lucario on my team when its absolutely shut down by Aegislash, but would be much more confident using it if I could pair it with an amazing Aegislash counter that can bust through the Pokemon Lucario cannot defeat that other sweepers can. Not only that, but a Bulletproof CAP18 both takes advantage of Latias' Defog support and handle its top switch-in.

If we force Aegislash to run Shadow Claw over Shadow Ball, that is a massive victory for the core. Although it doesn't make our core any better by itself (Physical Aegislash destroys our core almost as easily as Special does), it makes our core significantly better in the context of its team. Physical Aegislash is not very good in this metagame. It's hard-stopped by Intimidators, usually needs Life Orb to achieve the power it needs, and is therefore significantly less durable. If we're forcing Aegislash to run Physical sets, it makes our core much more enticing to use on a team.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

And while I'm at it, there have been very few posters who have addressed the questions posed by PttP at the start of this thread. While it's fun to throw every ability up against a wall to see what sticks, it's not conducive to actual conversation. It might be worth your time to consider how our CAP should handle Aegislash (offensively vs defensively) before posting. Remember, just because this is an Ability Discussion thread does not mean that every post needs to be about an ability.

If y'all haven't guessed by my ardent support of Bulletproof, I think defensive is the way to go in regards to PttP's question of offensive pressure vs. defense.

The beauty of Aegislash is how easily it can switch in with its plethora of resists/immunities and insane defenses before attacking. It has no problems switching in on Latias or Lucario, spamming a powerful attack, and switching back out. We need our CAP to be able to take this attack switching in. Doesn't matter how offensive we are, if we can't switch in, Aegislash's sudden shift to 150/150 offenses murder us.

If we had a different typing, especially one with STAB Pursuit and natural resistance to Aegislash's common attacks, we could start talking offensive pressure as a primary trait. But when we're hit neutrally by everything but the rare Steel STAB, a defensive ability's the best option we've got.

 

[Impy]

Well if we're only allowed to talk about Aegislash and nothing else, there's no reason to choose anything but Bulletproof, because nothing stops it better than that. I was thinking in broader terms of our CAP's longevity, but yeah, Bulletproof puts a full stop to it. I just really don't like the idea of an ability tailored to beat one move on one pokemon, it's kind of insane, even if it does what it's supposed to.

 

[FMD]

Bulletproof is very much NOT a full stop to Aegislash at all. The only advantage that special Aegislash has over any physical set is durability, but you could make similar arguments in support of special Blaziken. If we "wall" Aegislash with Bulletproof, it will just switch to a set of King's Shield/Swords Dance/Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword and deal as much, in not more, damage. After a single Swords Dance, even a Shadow Sneak would outclass Shadow Ball, dealing the same damage at +1 priority. Aegislash also has access to Head Smash which could easily destroy this CAP regardless of its stats. We are judging Aegislash based on the REAL OU meta, but that is not the meta that our CAP will have to deal with Aegislash in. We wouldn't be stopping Aegislash, we would be making Aegislash use a different set.

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def 100/100 physical bulk Water/Fire type: 374-442 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def 110/125 physical bulk Water/Fire type: 426-504 (100.4 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def 160/160 physical bulk Water/Fire type: 530-627 (101.1 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If we create something to solely counter a single set of a single Pokemon and call that helping our core, every battle will turn into us guessing whether that's the Aegislash we kill or the Aegislash that kills us. We would be making a metagame of random guessing and bluffs everywhere and one wrong move would destroy our fragile core and make it useless. This would NOT be the kind of meta we would want to use to study how a core works, this would be a repeat of the Aurumoth meta.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Bulletproof is very much NOT a full stop to Aegislash at all. The only advantage that special Aegislash has over any physical set is durability, but you could make similar arguments in support of special Blaziken. If we "wall" Aegislash with Bulletproof, it will just switch to a set of King's Shield/Swords Dance/Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword and deal as much, in not more, damage. After a single Swords Dance, even a Shadow Sneak would outclass Shadow Ball, dealing the same damage at +1 priority. Aegislash also has access to Head Smash which could easily destroy this CAP regardless of its stats. We are judging Aegislash based on the REAL OU meta, but that is not the meta that our CAP will have to deal with Aegislash in. We wouldn't be stopping Aegislash, we would be making Aegislash use a different set.
If we create something to solely counter a single set of a single Pokemon and call that helping our core, every battle will turn into us guessing whether that's the Aegislash we kill or the Aegislash that kills us. We would be making a metagame of random guessing and bluffs everywhere and one wrong move would destroy our fragile core and make it useless. This would NOT be the kind of meta we would want to use to study how a core works, this would be a repeat of the Aurumoth meta.

Sigh.

This is, again, why the point isn't "Bulletproof and done", but "Bulletproof so CAP can invest heavily in physical bulk". Moreover, unless we decide to make this CAP crazy slow and for some reason decide not to give it access to burn, it switches in, outspeeds and burns Aegislash to neuter it. The only issues are:

-If Aegislash uses Swords Dance on the switch and then Shadow Sneaks CAP before we burn, which can be dealt with if we have great physical bulk, and
-Head Smash, which is incredibly rare and doesn't fit in on its normal sets at all, which does hurt our CAP on the switch, but also means this Aegislash is sacrificing the ability to deal with the rest of this team.

Changing what Aegislash does is a victory for us, because again, it makes it weaker overall by specializing against us. And again, going the good Defense/poor Special Defense route makes this CAP fit better in this core (Latias rounds out its weaknesses beautifully with Defog, special bulk, and a resistance to the Volt Switch our CAP would so hate), rather than making it just a good pokemon period that fits on any team that needs and Aegislash counter.

 

[mewtwo15026]

We're well aware that we aren't going to stop Aegislash with just a typing and an ability. Aegislash is better than that. Our moves and stat spread are going to stop it, but going too deeply into that would be poll jumping. I know I've been slinging defensive calculations around, but that's just to prove that certain feats are possible.

If CAP18 is going the defensive route, and people seem to be leaning this way, it's going to need to consistently switch in on Excadrill's Earthquakes and Aegislash's Shadow Balls, as those are easily the two most dangerous attacks for our core. As I've explained, it's very possible to switch into a Shadow Ball given considerable special bulk. As for Excadrill, I've only suggested Intimidate, but outspeeding Excadrill and burning it is also an option. This would still require either a defensive ability or ridiculous physical bulk to prevent CAP18 from getting 2HKO'd, though.

If we're willing to concede that our core can't handle all everything, we can leave the rest up to the teambuilders. But I'm not ready to concede like that yet.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Even with ridiculous physical bulk, the CAP would still be vulnerable as fuck to Head Smash.
Let me ask you this: If there is a core that dominates the metagame, would it really be a waste of a Pokemon to ensure that you can effectively dismantle that core? If we focus this much on taking out Aegislash, why would you not think that somebody else could ever do that to our core?

No core is, pardon the pun, bulletproof. But if Aegislash is running Head Smash, what is it now not running?

Also your numbers are hilariously biased. First, our theoretical 110/125 physically bulky CAP has no investment in that defense because...? Second, our 160/160 max investment CAP has allowed Aegislash to set up Swords Dance and use Head Smash, which means we either don't burn it, we're slower than a base 50 mon, or we played poorly.

 

[Vryheid]

How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
Unlike past metas, defensive cores in Gen 6 must be heavily biased in favor of physical walls. It is not unusual to see a stall team with one special wall (Chansey or Assault Vest Goodra, for instance) and 3-4 physical walls due to the preponderance of threats like Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and Mega Charizard X. Offensive cores are much more flexible and easier to build than in previous gens because of power creep and access to items like Weakness Policy which allow sweepers to plow through traditional walls after a single turn of setup.

Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
Synergy as a general concept is just as important as ever- Pokemon have to be able to check each other's threats reliably and support each other or they will fall apart against specific team archetypes. You still need Pokemon capable of dealing with hazards, dumping status, sweeping, and revenge killing, and whatever other conditions your team needs to succeed. Typing synergy is arguably not as important as the past two gens because the increased use of hard hitting priority moves and bulky sweepers has made offensive revenge killing much easier to accomplish. Basically, you don't need to cover typing defensively as much when you can Brave Bird and Sucker Punch everything to death.

What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
With every additional member of a core, good prediction becomes more difficult yet all the more important. In Gen 5 a two-Pokemon offensive core like Keldeo/Scizor on a rain team could be expected to threaten practically everything in OU, and if you predicted the opponent to switch to one defensive counter you could easily switch out to your offensive teammate. But when you start adding more Pokemon into the mix it becomes harder to pick what you need to switch into- if your opponent has two defensive answers to your offensive sweeper, you may need to guess which offensive answer you'll have to switch into as well. This makes them trickier to use but potentially more deadly when switched around properly.

How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
Simply losing a teamslot with the addition of a new Pokemon to a core can force that core to take a much more dominant role in how a team functions. Defensive cores tend to have this problem, where they want to run more and more counters to offensive threats but end up with less room for hazards and revenge killing and other things they need to actually win a match. You start seeing more Pokemon like Scizor with Defog and Bullet Punch or Stealth Rock Blissey at that point once the player realizes that they only have 1 or 2 slots not part of the "core" left and can only afford to run Pokemon who can serve multiple roles.

Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
No, not really. If anything it makes running cores easier because you know in advance what specific Pokemon you need to preserve to keep your core in one piece.

Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
While no defensive core is impenetrable, every good offensive core can plow through any individual defensive threat. Stallbreakers like Reuniclus and Kyurem-B can singlehandedly wreck just about any defensive core with enough prediction, while even the best defensive Pokemon (think Skarmory, Chansey) can only hope to wall a relatively small portion of the metagame. As more versatile offensive threats continue to be added with each meta, this continually puts defensive cores on lower footing. That does not mean offensive cores require another core to be dealt with. The increased power of revenge killers and priority moves, as stated earlier, has made shutting down sweepers a much more flexible process that can be implemented piece-meal throughout a team rather than focused in a core specifically designed to deal with offensive threats.

Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?
As stated earlier, you don't need to counter-core a core. You just need the tools to either break through it or repeatedly force it out through threatening revenge killers. If you are determined to hard counter a core, then you should be using tools which can consistently cripple individual members of the core and allow other Pokemon to easily take advantage of the core being broken down. Pursuit trapping, Shadow Tag, hazards, Trick, and status are all reliable tools to consistently weaken or knock out individual members of a core, at which point a sweeper or defensive bulwark can take advantage of this gap and threaten to sweep the opposing team.

And the most important question, which was not addressed in the original post:
How the hell are we supposed to consistently switch into and threaten Aegislash?

Pursuit. That's the easiest way to do it, a hard hitting Pursuit will knock the stuffing out of Aegislash before it ever has a chance to switch out. Give this CAPmon Defiant if we want to make the set more effective, and some hard hitting fire type moves if they're crazy enough to stay in.

 

[Qwilphish]

Fire/Water is clearly an offensive typing first with interesting resistances to Fairy and Fire that happened to occur as well. This typing offers us an offensive STAB against Aegislash which is huge for a Pokemon which we need to be able to handle effectively. I don't want to just regurgitate what everyone has already said, but without a defensive typing we need a way to take on Aegislash in one way or another.

We cannot rely solely on Offensive pressure to deal with Aegislash because as we know, Aegislash has surprisingly good survivability with the decline of Spikes, resistance to Stealth Rock, and obviously its great defensive typing. (Side point: Can we stop talking about Head Smash Aegislash like it is a good option. 50% Recoil on a Pokemon with 60 Base HP is terrible and ruins any of the survivability that Aegislash had previously.)

Offeninsive + Defensive Pressure is the only way I see that we can reliably beat Aegislash, and this stage is the last place where we can secure our ability to do that. This means that we should not go for an Offensive Ability as it goes against what the typing was made for. Yes, if you haven't caught on by now this is another post in support for Bulletproof.

There is no way that this CAP can work at this point as without this ability as we are guarenteed to lose to AT LEAST one set of Aegislash, which is something that I'm sure shouldn't happen 100% of the time considering the past two threads. People say that if we choose Bulletproof we still lose to SD Aegislash, which I don't necessarily understand because we have a Super-Effective STAB, but this is beyond the point, my main point is that if we forego Bulletproof then we have to invest in Special Defense to prevent us from getting steamrolled. If we do this however then we STILL lose to the SD Aegislash set. At the very least we have a chance of not losing to some Aegislash set if we go with Bulletproof. No other ability can provide this type of utility outside of maybe Poison Heal (which has its own set of overpowered problems) and this is why we basically need Bulletproof.

 

[Mowtom]

At first, I agreed with the opinion that Bulletproof was useless due to the fact that all it lets you do is stop ONE set of ONE threatening Pokemon. I originally supported Regenerator. However, the discussion has convinced me. With Bulletproof as its ability, CAP 18 doesn't have to worry about special Aegislash, and can focus its stats toward countering physical. A +2 252 Atk Adamant natured Shadow Claw cannot OHKO even a Manaphy with no defense investment at all, so if we give it more bulk than Manaphy, we have succesfully countered Aegislash. While Regenerator is nice, it doesn't help us against Aegislash at all. I confidently say that I think Bulletproof is the best option for a primary ability on CAP 18.

 

[turd bunny]

At first, I agreed with the opinion that Bulletproof was useless due to the fact that all it lets you do is stop ONE set of ONE threatening Pokemon. I originally supported Regenerator. However, the discussion has convinced me. With Bulletproof as its ability, CAP 18 doesn't have to worry about special Aegislash, and can focus its stats toward countering physical. A +2 252 Atk Adamant natured Shadow Claw cannot OHKO even a Manaphy with no defense investment at all, so if we give it more bulk than Manaphy, we have succesfully countered Aegislash. While Regenerator is nice, it doesn't help us against Aegislash at all. I confidently say that I think Bulletproof is the best option for a primary ability on CAP 18.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 364-429 (106.7 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO. what did you say about the manaphy calcs? but thats not really important. look at this: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 364-429 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. aegislash is scary. We really need a way to counter it in order to avoid it eating our core alive. that would make CAP 18 usable outside of the core but both latias and lucario are used outside of it so that is irrelevant right now. So we need a way to beat almost all of its sets and other ground types that will trouble our team. I think the best suggested abilities so far have been Multiscale, Regenerator and Infiltrator. I dont want to justify regenerator again. Multiscale is not broken because it can be broken (ha) by entry hazards. Also in this core we have hazard removal to possibly support keeping the scale intact. This will allow Cap 18 to switch into big hits and still be able to do something other than be fodder or die to shadow sneak or something. Infiltrator can hit past the substitutes of subtoxic aegis and sub+3 attacks gengar and others. please give it some thought and pleas dont use bulletproof!

 

[Albacore]

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 364-429 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

That calc has absolutely no relevance whatsoever, since, unless you're playing really badly, Aegislash will be burnt by the time its +2 Shadow Claw lands.

Besides, Shadow Claw is not a common move on Aegislash. At all. Here are the numbers from the February Usage Stats :
Moves | | King's Shield 91.871% | | Shadow Sneak 88.437% | | Sacred Sword 72.245% | | Swords Dance 49.306% | | Shadow Ball 41.337% | | Iron Head 24.110% | | Flash Cannon 10.001% | | Autotomize 4.391% | | Other 18.303%

Do you see Shadow Claw in there? Because I sure don't!

Even if the metagame adapts to counter our CAP, it doesn't matter. What matters is what the metagame looks like now, and if our CAP works well in it. Of course the metagame will adapt to out CAP, but that just means it was good enough to influence the metagame to the point of changing it. If you need to run a mostly sub-par set just to defeat our core, it is a good core.

Also, Regenerator is, as far as I can tell, a terrible idea for our CAP, since it removes the incentive to give Defog to Latias. We made it SR-weak for a very good reason.
And those that claim we don't have to give Defog to Latias are wrong, because... well, we do. The Latias we are trying to support is Offensive Defog Latias, Not Defensive Healing Wish Latias or something like that. We need to support our core, not some other core.

Edit : My bad, I should probably read comments more carefully.

 

[turd bunny]

i was talking to mowtom cause he was saying something about manaphy living that hit. but yea it wasn't really that relavent.

 

[Mowtom]

Yeah, that was my mistake. I forgot the Life Orb boost. Even so, I think my point still stands. A +2 Aegislash is really scary, but if we use Bulletproof and give good physical bulk, it can't do too much to us, while we can (hopefully) burn with Scald/Lava Plume (if we get one of them).

 

[turd bunny]

Well, time to throw in my two cents.

Bulletproof- Open your eyes, people. So much discussion has been just on countering Aegislash that this ability, one of the abilities gaining the most support here, counters only Aegislash (and possibly Gengar). On top of that, it's only countering ONE move that these Pokemon use, and Aegislash isn't even guaranteed to always have Shadow Ball. Out.

Drought- The sun may help the Fire part of this Pokemon, yet harms its water side. Also, the boost to other Fire types, like Mega-Houndoom, would ruin the remainder of this core. (The first part also goes in reverse for Drizzle and the second could also apply to Hurricane or Thunder users, if anybody uses those moves, to an extent). Out (and Out).

Contrary- I liked this idea at first, but then I realized that Overheat (this would obviously end up on the Pokemon if it got Contrary) boosting this Pokemon's stats (which are no doubt going to be good, seeing as this is a CAP) with its great dual-STAB could make this Pokemon overpowered. Maybe there's a reason it's only on Serperior, Shuckle, and Malamar... Out.

Filter- I actually like this idea, but can't think of enough practical uses for it other than making switch-ins to this Pokemon slightly easier occasionally. Also, I don' see a lot of conversation on it. Can anyone present some Pros and Cons to this one? Limbo.

Levitate- This would help the Pokemon defensively, no doubt, but I'm apprehensive to the idea because there could be potential for this Pokemon and Latias to take on a very similar job, which would mean we didn't accomplish very much here. Out.

Regenerator- I like how this ability makes our Pokemon better at Pivoting, and I think it's a good ability. Still In.

Volt Absorb- I don't think I've seen a lot of conversation on this one, although it could have its uses on a water type. Limbo.

Intimidate- I agree that this would be helpful on offensive threats, but the foe could always switch out after taking an Intimidate or simply take this Pokemon out with a specially offensive Pokemon. Can anyone present some more arguments for this? Limbo.

Ok, from here on out I'm just listing abilities which I strongly believe shouldn't exist on this CAP or are still good to use.

Mold Breaker- This helps the Pokemon to get through pesky abilities like Flash Fire, Water Absorb, and Storm Drain, preventing annoying switch outs to such Pokemon. Still In.

Adaptability- Too overpowered (why else would Mega-Lucario get banned?). Out.

Sheer Force- This puts too much emphasis on this Pokemon being an all-out attacker rather than supporting the core. Also, a lot of Water and Fire moves are used simply because of their effects. Out.

Multiscale- I can definitely see this working (assuming Stealth Rocks aren't up). Still In.

Unaware- I can see this working against Pokemon like Swords Dance Aegislash or Belly Drum Azumarill which can dismantle our core without much resistance. Still In.

Serene Grace- This really helps the Pokemon to support the core through Burns and other probable side-effects (to be determined when we choose the movepool), as well as crippling common threats like Physical Aegislash and Azumarill. Still In.

Clear Body/White Smoke- I like this idea, as it allows the Pokemon not to be hindered by Sticky Web (if Latias can't remove it for whatever reason) as well as King's Shield (if this becomes physically offensive). Still In.

Well, that's it. Sorry for the length of this post.

I think he nailed it. mostly

 

[Mowtom]

Besides, Shadow Claw is not a common move on Aegislash. At all. Here are the numbers from the February Usage Stats :
Moves | | King's Shield 91.871% | | Shadow Sneak 88.437% | | Sacred Sword 72.245% | | Swords Dance 49.306% | | Shadow Ball 41.337% | | Iron Head 24.110% | | Flash Cannon 10.001% | | Autotomize 4.391% | | Other 18.303%

Sure, Shadow Claw may not be common, but it is the worst that physical Aegislash can do to us. Shadow Sneak and Sacred Sword are outdamaged by Shadow Claw, and we resist Iron Head. That is why I used Shadow Claw as my metric for physical Aegislash's damage output. And yes, I do know that that wasn't your main point, but I felt the need to respond to it anyways.

 

[mewtwo15026]

If Bulletproof becomes CAP18's ability, a defensive build that threatens everything we want it to while maintaining a reasonable BST will be entirely impossible. We'd need Milotic's special bulk to dodge the 2HKO from Gengar's Thunderbolt and something better than Regirock's physical bulk to take two Excadrill's Earthquakes. And then we'd need to force out Aegislash somehow.

I feel like a Bulletproof CAP18 would have to be bulky, but offensive. Rather than attempt to wall the rest of Gengar's and Aegislash's moves, it could come in on Shadow Ball for free and proceed to sling status (for Aegislash) and attacks (for Gengar) around. The problems here would be Talonflame due to powerful, unburnable priority. I'll give more thought to this later.

 

[FireArrow]

This is turning into a very circular discussion.

If Bulletproof becomes CAP18's ability, a defensive build that threatens everything we want it to while maintaining a reasonable BST will be entirely impossible. We'd need Milotic's special bulk to dodge the 2HKO from Gengar's Thunderbolt and something better than Regirock's physical bulk to take two Excadrill's Earthquakes. And then we'd need to force out Aegislash somehow.

I feel like a Bulletproof CAP18 would have to be bulky, but offensive. Rather than attempt to wall the rest of Gengar's and Aegislash's moves, it could come in on Shadow Ball for free and proceed to sling status (for Aegislash) and attacks (for Gengar) around. The problems here would be Talonflame due to powerful, unburnable priority. I'll give more thought to this later.

Sorry, but saying that we can't switch in on super effective attacks coming off of high base stats isn't much of a counter argument. We're gonna astronomical stats to deal with that, no matter what ability we choose. Your second paragraph is exactly what we were planning on doing in the first place (regarding Aegislash, Gengar is something we'll have to handle with another team member - no one ever suggested Bullet Proof + Milotic's special bulk.)

And while it probably isn't relevant, air balloon is a thing.

 

[Clankenator007]

Seeing a momentum for th e defensive abilities in this thread. While I don't think they are a bad idea I don't feel like they are the best idea.

Theorymoning a defensive core is really easy. Pick some bulky Pokemon and make sure you cover the weaknesses and you're bound to end up with something at least B+ level. Theorymoning an offensive core is quite a bit trickier. By the nature of the game offensive Pokemon aren't as bulky and that makes the problem of switching more difficult, especially without immunities. Now, I think the root of the problem here is that we're having second thoughts. We're getting scared. We picked Fire/Water typing and decided to go offensive but now we're just quivering in our boots thinking of 101 things that can hit us hard and potentially KO. We can't cover all of our weaknesses. We shouldn't try to cover all of our weaknesses. It's easy to want CAP to be bulky, offensive, fast, and do well against every threat but that's not realistic. Fire/Water is obviously an offensively oriented type,and if we wanted something defensive we should have picked a more defensive type and a core that doesn't have a mon with 70/70/70 defenses in it. Now is not the time to have second thoughts and correct for all of our shortcomings, we want to capitalize on our strengths. Let's go balls to the wall and start distributing some punishment.

Abilities like these below are what we want. Stop Aegislash and our other counters by laying down the hurt.

Contrary- Great ability. Get attack boosts from intimidate and king's shield, an evasion boost from defog, and most exciting of all a free +2 special attack from overheat. My main gripe with this is it could potentially be broken if we give it overheat (even that evasion boost from defog is a little sketchy). But on the other hand that +2 alongside a 130bp stab attack will make your opponent think twice before switching out Aegislash. If you can KO Aegislash and then get revenge killed I'd say mission accomplished.

Competitive- Sweet for a mixed set, not so sweet for pure special. Aegislash has no reason to KS and intimidators have no reason to come in of you only hit on the special side, which leaves you only getting boosts from defog, which isn't so great. Definitely awesome for a mixed set though. Flare Blitz x Surf could be really scary and make this thing a great wallbreaker.

Sheer Force- Not only the manliest ability, but also one of the best ones for our purposes. Yes, generally we should be deciding how hard we hit with stats, but shouldn't we also be deciding immunities with typing? Besides, sheer force gives us a level of Sp.Atk (and Atk I suppose) beyond which would be reasonable to submit in the stats stage. Nidoking, with his paltry 85 base Sp.Atk is essentially hitting off of around 165 base Sp.Atk with life orb sheer force attacks. Beastly? Yes. Unwarranted? No. You definitely aren't unstoppable , but Aegislash and friends won't risk carelessly switching around when you're hitting that hard. If you force Aegislash, grounds, fairies, and the other things that threaten the core to play hardball you're doing something right. Sometimes you can't outright beat everything you want to, but making your opponent sweat and preventing them from walking all over your core is damn close.

Serene Grace- Hah! You better have BURN HEAL! While not so much of a wallbreaking ability this certainly has it's merits. Scald and Lava Plume get about 10000% better with that hot 60% chance to burn. Aegislash doesn't wan't to take fire moves. Almost nothing that resists fire wants to get burned or take a water move. Grounds are wary. Physical Fairies like Azumarill are wary. Fire Types are scared. Bug Types are scared. Sounds like our threatlist to me.

Defensive abilities are nice, but a typing like Fire/Water is just dying to start laying down the smack down.

 

[turd bunny]

Sheer force--cool ability, makes you hit harder, but with fire/water typing the first thing that screamed out to me was the combo of scald and lava plume. serene grace sounds really awesome and as Clankenator said almost nothing wants to take a scald or plume and is okay with getting burned. sheer force gets rid of that. still my thought is "what are we gonna do about t-bolt gengar?". so yes, infiltrator can hit passed subs. can we narrow it down to a list of the good ones?

 

[swampmist1142]

Ok, after all of the discussion about Shadow ball (and running my own personal calcs) I'm seeing the use for Bulletproof as an ability, but I still feel that it's too specific. Specifically when thinking of taking the all-too common S-Ball + S-Sneak combo that Aegislash carries, and moreover being able to take them multiple times is why I more approve of Regenerator as our main ability. While having Bulletproof is good to scare Shadow ball Aegislash away, we need a way to come in on it's attacks, as well as those of other members of our threatlist, multiple times if we want to have the offensive pressure that we have so far designed this CAP to have. While it's typing may not make for the best defensive pivot in general, within the space of our team it is much better in that role as well as that of an Offensive Pivot, which is what the core seems to most need. With Lucario's inability to switch in more than once or twice, having a good pivot is crucial. Also, if we want to do as clank said above me and "Lay the smack down" as it were, we have to be able to do ti multiple times lest the opponent switching kill the entire mon. Even if we can threaten the incoming poke with strong STABs, we cannot stop death foddering and the pokes that we specifically chose as checks\counters from coming in and forcing us out when we may only be able to come in once. As such, with the ability to consistently defeat or threats list as our goal, Regenerator is the best Main Ability, although by no means only ability, for our cap.

 

[PttP]

Alright as FireArrow as stated, this discussion is getting quite circular and as such, I'll try to fix that by asking that you guys keep the discussion on Bulletproof to a minimum from now on. We all essentially know the arguments for and against Bulletproof as an ability so there is no real point in continuing these arguments.

Instead I would like to see more discussion on these abilities:

Competitive
Regenerator
Serene Grace
Intimidate

Please note that this list in not indicative of my slate. The reasons I want more discussion on them range from lack of discussion (Intimidate) to questionable practical use (Competitive) to overall shitstormyness (Serene Grace). Feel free to talk about abilities not on the list I provided, but please do not continue any discussion about Bulletproof as an ability.

 

[Yayz]

Never posted in a CAP before, so if I say something stupid lemme know.

I've seen some mention on earlier pages about No Guard, and it strikes me as an interesting offensive ability. Between the Will-O-Wisp that Fire-types often have, the Hydro Pump that Water-types often have, and the other various moves that would become quite viable (Inferno, perhaps?), it's an interesting concept.

Defensively, there's a lot. I personally think that Intimidate is one of our best bets, because it gives our CAP good physical defense, allowing us to invest in special defense. I'm going to say Bulletproof because it's the hot thing to say right now it's been pointed out that it gives good switch-ins to Aegislash and Gengar, which is nice.

I think the main problem is we picked a mixed pokemon to beat

Instead I would like to see more discussion on these abilities:

Competitive
Regenerator
Serene Grace
Intimidate

Please note that this list in not indicative of my slate. The reasons I want more discussion on them range from lack of discussion (Intimidate) to questionable practical use (Competitive) to overall shitstormyness (Serene Grace). Feel free to talk about abilities not on the list I provided, but please do not continue any discussion about Bulletproof as an ability.

Competitive is an option that's interesting, but requires a special attacker to run a physical move of some kind in order to take advantage of King's Shield. Alternatively, Sticky Web could be used against the opponent, however Latias's Defog support should mean that Sticky Web really isn't there.

Regenerator lets us switch back into Aegislash if it's cured of its burn so we can do the same thing again, and is otherwise annoying to deal with. At worst it alleviates Stealth Rock damage, which is a bonus, but again, Latias has Defog support.

I'm not quite sure what to do with Serene Grace, unless we should Paraflinch our foes into oblivion. I suppose it gives Scald an almost guaranteed burn chance, so Will-O-Wisp isn't necessary.

And I've already mentioned Intimidate.

 

[DarkSlay]

To start off, Regenerator is exactly the kind of ability we do not want. No one is arguing that Regenerator isn't a great ability. However, one of the major, crucial reasons why Fire / Water was chose was because it was both Stealth Rock weak and Spikes vulnerable, creating incentive to actually use Defog Latias as part of the core. Remember, guys, we've not only established the two existing members of the core, but also their movesets. We are using Swords Dance Lucario and Offensive Defog Latias. By giving CAP 18 something like Regenerator, CAP 18 has the capacity to function extremely well outside of the core on its own. There would be little use for Defog support, and quite honestly, new teammates might be optimal knowing that it overcame something it should have been weak to. I'd go so far as to say that this ability, at this stage, directly goes against the concept.

Serene Grace has way too universal of a benefit to be considered specifically useful for the concept. You may double secondary effects of certain moves, but besides "man, that's a really cool idea", is there an actual reason why that would specifically benefit the core? What does Serene Grace do to make a core of Latias + Lucario + CAP 18 work as opposed to just making CAP 18 a good Pokemon? I'm not quite sure there is a reason, to be honest. Good ability, questionable conceptual value.

Competitive is okay. I tend to lean more towards the "favor" side, but it's definitely a niche ability that gives it situational viability. Being able to power up against Intimidate users like Landorus-T and Gyarados is cool, but I'm not too sure how effective that would be in outright practice. My stance: this would be a fine ability if it were selected, but there are certain suggested abilities that directly help out the core more. Contrary is in a very similar boat (stat-dropping moves aren't really a part of the discussion, since the reason to use these abilities per the concept is more defensively niche than offensive).

Intimidate is not a good idea. I suppose it has some use against bulky Grounds and physical Dragons, but it barely affects things like Aegislash and other targets we want to hinder while also worsening CAP 18's potential switch-in to Bisharp (which currently wrecks the core if CAP 18 were to get Intimidate).

 

[FMD]

Competitive: This would be best used in a similar manner to how Defiant is used with Bisharp, but still being entirely different. One of our moves would have to be a physical move that's NOT U-Turn in order to make use of this against Aegislash. Since we won't really be trying to deal much damage with these (unless we go mixed), the best choices are Pursuit (to either hit Aegislash in the sword form as it switches out), Foul Play (nearly a OHKO to Aegislash even in shield form) or something like Nuzzle (for the 100% status chance). These would be VERY essential to making sure the CAP gets the SpAtk boost off of Aegislash since there are 7 Special moves that make contact and Aegislash resists them all. Aside from King's Shield, we would mainly be getting boths from Intimidate, Defog and Sticky Web. There is also a 20% chance of any incoming Shadow Ball lowering the CAP's SpDef and giving us a Competitive boost, but that is very far from a reliable source. I feel like Dragon Tail deserves a special mention here since it can do one of three things: 1) Hit Aegislash in its Blade form and deal much higher damage, forcing a switch. 2) Hit King's Shield and net a Competitive boost. 3) Hit Aegislash's switch in (assuming it's not Fairy) and phase into a random Pokemon. All three of these would be favorable results and the only real way that this ability can be turned against us would be Topsy Turvy.

Regenerator: Like I've said before, I believe Regenerator is by far the best defensive ability we could choose. It allows the CAP to take repeated blows while acting as an offensive pivot for the core, making a switch into Aegislash's Shadow Ball much less of a threat. Also as a Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock, that basically renders it without an ability, especially with Spikes also in play. This would increase reliance on the Defog support of our Latias to get any appreciable gain from Regenerator. This passive regeneration would also make Lucario a naturally better target for Latias's Wish or Healing Wish, should she carry either.

Serene Grace: I think it's clear that the main status ailment we will applying with this would be burn, but there are also many other effects ranging from a possible Charge Beam's guaranteed SpAtk boost to the flinch chance of Zen Headbutt. Focusing on the burn chance, this would be able to cripple the many physical threats to our core if they attempted to switch in on a resisted attack and force the CAP out. For example, if Garchomp came in on a Fire move it resists only to end up with a burn, we just possibly prevented a sweep on our team. This wouldn't solve any of our problems by far, but it would be an interesting approach to fitting this CAP into our core.

Intimidate: This ability has great potential to synergize with Latias to artificially increase her bulk and also to potentially force the opponent into switching out, allowing us to safely switch in our Lucario without losing a Pokemon. Aside from these perks, I really don't see all that much use in Intimidate as a primary ability, but I DO fully support this as being a secondary ability when the time comes as it can greatly help our core, but it really isn't the best option available.