CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Dogfish44]

Looking through, I'm impartial to EQ, but favour Bonemerang. Sub breaking is good, but I like the chance of 2 critical hits. Also, a move that would work this the CAP for stat uppers would be:

Time Fang
Psychic
Physical
40 Power
100% Accuracy
Change all stat boosts/falls to what they were 5 turns ago
15PP

Why?
CAP 7 will eventually have to make switch ins to some big problems. When this pokemon has acsess to Time Fang, a stat up pokemon will have to either attack, or switch out of fear of Time Fang. If it attacks, you can get knowledge of another move from the attack. If they switch, you know another pokemon they have in there team. The most important aspect of this is for + Def/Atk. + Speed would be harder to take, paticulary if they have a boosted Atk.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

*much talk* precedent *much talk*

First off, what's with the constant precedent speech? CAP is a competitive project foremost, we shouldn't be completely bound by the laws of preceding factors and in-game logic especially if those preceding factors would make or break the current concept. To be fair, certain things do feel more natural when going with the grain, but we shouldn't focus 100% on those things.

Someone on the server made this suggestion, a Ghost-Type Return. A strong reliable move would sound good, though a Steel Type Crush Claw is fine.

 

[jagged_angel]

What?!? Dogfish that's a crazy idea. Surely the move Haze does this well enough. Since a 40BP unSTABbed move will do negligible damage anyway, and since it won't have any effect on Darks like DDTar, let's just stick with Haze.

Ghost Type Body Slam is ok, so is Ghost Return, sure they'd be helpful but wouldn't be as good at causing switches as STAB Flare or STAB Crush Claw.

Correct me if I'm wrong but surely the main reason to create a new move for CAP7 is to A. Aid the Pokemon becoming the Ultimate Scout and B. Replace the crappy Physical Ghost STABs.

Therefore we need a move that causes maximum switches. A Screech + STAB Damage move is definitely the best way to go here. STAB Flare, maybe a 90BP Ghost version.

 

[Solstice]

STAB Flare is physical I assume? Ifits between STAB Flare and STAB Crush Claw, I support Crush Claw. It doesnt overpower the Pokemon and still makes it a dangerous scout.

 

[Dogfish44]

I'd be more that happy to change it to a Ghost type and give it 90BP, for the sake of some PP (Base 10 to Base 5) and accuracy (95). Just the knowledge of this move could cause many Stat-uppers to switch, either switching in a normal type, namely a Blissey. If none appears then it makes a sweep so much easier, with the knowledge that Blissey isn't going to stop you in your tracks. This would need a little prediction, as the clever could switch in a resist. But a skilled player could deduct a lot of info. A stat upper that stays in would lose all there boosts and take a considerable amount of damage as well. So its a Win-Win scenario, either scouting or damaging. CAP 7 can already deal with other stat uppers at the moment. But its just an idea, and if no I'll post Haze on the non competitive move section.

Also I support The 2 STAB moves.

 

[chronostrike]

I didn't include calculations for magnezone earlier because I did not think they were necessary. If CAP7 can do more than 110% to Heatran w/o item boost, then it surely can OHKO Magnezone.

Concerning Bone Club (assuming max Atk+ CAP7): Bone Club is a 72.25% chance of 2HKO on Magnezone without an item boost. The damage output is sufficient, but 85 accuracy reduces its sting. It is a 66.67% OHKO with LO, improved to 100% with SR damage (ignoring accuracy for both) and an assured OHKO with CB. Against Heatran, it actually has a 33.33% chance to OHKO without item boost given SR damage. LO makes that 100% OHKO without SR.

Concerning Bonemerang (assuming the first hit was used up on the sub): Bonemerang can not KO Magnezone despite HP lost to the sub and SR damage without an item boost. It can only KO Heatran with SR support, and even then only 79.49% of the time (That's 4/0 Heatran--Bulkier sets fare much better), not to mention Heatran will certainly OHKO in return. LO, however, is enough to ensure the KO on both pokemon.

All told, this means that Bonemerang is indeed a good move, but only significant vs. EQ if it gets a boost. Even the lowly Bone Club is enough to remove both Magnezone and Heatran as counters. I think they are both acceptable.

 

[Naxte]

I'd be more that happy to change it to a Ghost type and give it 90BP, for the sake of some PP (Base 10 to Base 5) and accuracy (95). Just the knowledge of this move could cause many Stat-uppers to switch, either switching in a normal type, namely a Blissey. If none appears then it makes a sweep so much easier, with the knowledge that Blissey isn't going to stop you in your tracks. This would need a little prediction, as the clever could switch in a resist. But a skilled player could deduct a lot of info. A stat upper that stays in would lose all there boosts and take a considerable amount of damage as well. So its a Win-Win scenario, either scouting or damaging. CAP 7 can already deal with other stat uppers at the moment. But its just an idea, and if no I'll post Haze on the non competitive move section.

Also I support The 2 STAB moves.

However, CAP7 doesn't have the stats to be switching in to stat uppers; you can predict, but it's still a real risky thing to switch in, when there are better options, like Arghonaut. Thus, it would mostly have to come in as a revenge killer to do that job. However, even that won't really work against things like Dragon Dancers and Agility users, who will outspeed you. If you're switching something into them, Arghonaut is generally a better move, since it ignores increases in attacking power right off the bat and is bulky to boot. I really don't think forcing roles of Pokemon like Argho onto this thing is the best option for this thing, so I don't really support such a move.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Jolly CAP7 using EQ on 4/0 Magnezone: 118.15% - 139.50%
Jolly CAP7 using Bomemrang on 4/0 Magnezone: 59.79% - 71.17%
Jolly CAP7 using Bone Club on 4/0 Magnezone: 76.87% - 91.10%


A more crazier idea would be to just add all three moves into CAP7's movepool? No harm in that and Magnezone and Heatran would still be considered CAP7 checks. Scarf version of them can come in and still revenge kill the bastard. Don't say that they shouldn't be forced into equipping Choice Scarf to fight it since without them they're both screwed.

Seriously Mag, just move EQ into allowed already. You know majority of the nay votes were either flawed, flavor based, or a mixture of the two. We clearly proved that EQ is neither broken nor overpowering on CAP7 so why keep on ignoring these factors?

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

Since we've come up with a new Ghost STAB in "Ghost Slam", I came up with a Steel Crush Claw. I think the power of regular Crush Claw is 75, so correct me if I'm wrong:

Rusty Slash
Type: Physical
Base Power: 75
Accuracy: 95
PP: 10
Side Effects: 50% Chance to lower defense one stage.
Decription: The user slashes the opponent with rusted metal. It may lower Defense.

I chose rusted metal, because iirc, get a scratch from rusted metal may result in getting a disease like tetnis?

 

[Solstice]

Since we've come up with a new Ghost STAB in "Ghost Slam", I came up with a Steel Crush Claw. I think the power of regular Crush Claw is 75, so correct me if I'm wrong:

Rusty Slash
Type: Physical
Base Power: 75
Accuracy: 95
PP: 10
Side Effects: 50% Chance to lower defense one stage.
Decription: The user slashes the opponent with rusted metal. It may lower Defense.

I chose rusted metal, because iirc, get a scratch from rusted metal may result in getting a disease like tetnis?

You didn't come up with Steel Crush Claw, its been discussed in the thread for a while now.

 

[Naxte]

Since we've come up with a new Ghost STAB in "Ghost Slam", I came up with a Steel Crush Claw. I think the power of regular Crush Claw is 75, so correct me if I'm wrong:

Rusty Slash
Type: Physical
Base Power: 75
Accuracy: 95
PP: 10
Side Effects: 50% Chance to lower defense one stage.
Decription: The user slashes the opponent with rusted metal. It may lower Defense.

I chose rusted metal, because iirc, get a scratch from rusted metal may result in getting a disease like tetnis?

The BP of Crush Claw is 75, but I'd prefer the BP to be bumped up to 80 or so, so it's a bit more of a decent move if it doesn't get the defense drop.

 

[Urza]

if this does get a new physical ghost move that's decent, or if it gets earthquake or strong ground moves, i say no fighting moves of any note (go go rock smash). let's not give this universal coverage.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

if this does get a new physical ghost move that's decent, or if it gets earthquake or strong ground moves, i say no fighting moves of any note (go go rock smash). let's not give this universal coverage.

So...no Fighting move if it get's earthquake and/or a physical ghost move or just EQ? Don't have a problem with your reasoning just confused about what you mean.

 

[Frosty]

I must say that, right now, I am extremely happy with the movepool as it is.


Anyway, I am against this Ghost Version of Body Slam. While I do agree that all ghost physical STABs are terrible, CAP7 already have great speed and won't benefit the slightest from paralysis. Also, and this is more important, I seriously doubt anyone would switch out after being paralysed, being afraid of having another poke paralysed and all. They will probably just stick around with the poke they switched in against CAP7 (that should probably be at least a decent foe) and deal with it and then revenge kill if necessary.

I'd much rather have a move that inflict something that disappears upon switching, something similar to Ghost-typed (we have enough decent Steel STABs) Crush Claw, like people are suggesting.

 

[tennisace]

Why not a Ghost-typed Return/Frustration?

 

[darkie]

That's fine, but the 102 BP is kinda arbitrary. I'd be more satisfied with flat out 100.

 

[tennisace]

Soul Punch
Type: Ghost
Physical
100 BP
10 PP
Accuracy: 100%
Effect: None.

I think this would be quite fitting for this Pokemon.

Also before anyone says that it's just a ghost-type EQ, why not give it EQ, STAB is 1.5x the move's power, while 2x super effective is well, 2x. Added to the fact that Ground gets better coverage than Ghost, I don't think this will be broken in any way.

 

[billymills]

The elemental punches are a great idea for this pokemon. 75 power off 103 attack, and it can get some important x4 super-effectives (gyarados, salamence). It can scare them off with its speed, and will either scout the set, or another switch in.

There is really no need for a new move. Especially if we give this Shadow Force or something. We don't need a new move for every single pokemon. Shadow Force is a great move, as it would be quite powerful, it would nearly force the opponent to switch in their resists (normals, steels). We can't we make a pokemon with what's already given to us? Also, the move you're giving it sounds terrible. We don't need a 100 power attack when there's already a 120 one that scouts better.

I like the idea of bonemerang, allowing CAP7 to break subs, crucial on heatran, t-tar, and jolteon. Only losing 10 accuracy in the process.

While we're talking about 100 and 120 power moves, I think Brave Bird would be a good suggestion. High power allows it to threaten Celebi and Machamp, hitting both harder than Shadow Claw and Meteor Mash.

 

[jagged_angel]

Why not a Ghost-typed Return/Frustration?

It doesn't bring enough to the pokemon. Reliable Ghost STAB that's it. If it could help scout in some way it would be so much more supportive of the concept.

STAB U-Turn or STAB Crush Claw seem like better options to help it scout.

 

[Plus]

First off I'd like to say that I completely support tennis's move, and a hard hitting stab move is what we'd really need for this pokemon. Without a band, flygon can't hit for shit. Cap7 has 103 base attack. How do you expect to do damage as such? I'd say that a hard hitting move is good enough for this pokemon, nothing else. Flygon never needed a 30% chance paralysis rate attack to do good, and it functions fine with Outrage/EQ as attacking moves. As long as cap7 has enough power from stab and high bp, it is good enough. There's no need to go beyond with move making.

Honestly, I don't see how much you can jam into a scout pokemon's moveset filled with scout moves to the point where it looks like a piece of crap and joke of a moveset. Could you imagine a moveset like Dig/Protect/Roar/U-turn on this thing? The typing of this pokemon already forces switches, and it's abilities help it scout fine. I'll use Scizor and Flygon as examples, who just run U-turn as their only scouting move and function perfectly fine. It's not necessary to go totally above and beyond with this concept, because we have accomplished that simply by allowing common scouting moves such as U-turn and giving this thing excellent typing and abilities that compliment the concept.

 

[Naxte]

There is really no need for a new move. Especially if we give this Shadow Force or something. We don't need a new move for every single pokemon. Shadow Force is a great move, as it would be quite powerful, it would nearly force the opponent to switch in their resists (normals, steels). We can't we make a pokemon with what's already given to us? Also, the move you're giving it sounds terrible. We don't need a 100 power attack when there's already a 120 one that scouts better.

Because the Ghost STAB sucks offensively. The best there is are Shadow Claw and Shadow Force. And as you said, Shadow Force just drags counters out, so it's not too useful offensively, and Shadow Claw, the next best, is fairly weak. Thus the new moves, like my own and tennis's, which allow it to actually be able to use its Ghost STAB offensively.

It doesn't bring enough to the pokemon. Reliable Ghost STAB that's it. If it could help scout in some way it would be so much more supportive of the concept.

STAB U-Turn or STAB Crush Claw seem like better options to help it scout.

Ghost Return is a reliable STAB move, with 100 accuracy and power, which rectifies its weaker Ghost STAB movepool, which is really good. As for it not being scouty, I really don't see how that matters; not every last thing about this Pokemon has to link back to scouting.

 

[jagged_angel]

Ghost Return is a reliable STAB move, with 100 accuracy and power, which rectifies its weaker Ghost STAB movepool, which is really good. As for it not being scouty, I really don't see how that matters; not every last thing about this Pokemon has to link back to scouting.

Not every last thing, but a move created Specifically for this pokemon is pretty unique, and therefore should embody the concept.

Just wanted to mention that Night Slash and Psycho Cut should be allowed for some extra coverage if need be.

 

[darkie]

Brave Bird is not a bad move. The high BP is offset by the recoil; fine by me!

 

[The_Dark_Sage]

There is really no need for a new move. We don't need a new move for every single pokemon.

What do you mean? The only CaP mon that has gotten a new move, i'm pretty sure, is Stratagem. So no we are not giving a new move to every new pokemon. Just there isn't enough good physical ghost moves the help CaP 7.

 

[tennisace]

Brave Bird is not a bad move. The high BP is offset by the recoil; fine by me!

I also agree with Brave Bird, it doesn't get too much in terms of coverage but could be useful.