CAP 36 - Framework Submissions

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WIP

Name: Convergent Form CAP

Description: This CAP consists of two Pokemon, the second being a convergent form/ecologically similar species to the first.

Explanation: Game Freak has recently developed a habit of introducing new ways to make variants for old Pokemon, and convergent forms/ecologically similar species are among the newest of these new types of variants. Only three convergent species were introduced in SV, and only one of these mons is actually good (rip my boy Toedscruel...), so they've fallen to the wayside compared to the more common and powerful Paradox Pokemon in terms of competitive viability. However, I think there's quite a bit of potential to this concept, simply because of the wide design space it offers. I'll go more into specifics in the Restrictions/Deviations, but the way convergent species work (admittedly a lot of these "rules" aren't set in stone since we currently only have three examples to work with, but IMO working with the limited examples we have now is MUCH less of a headache than reworking certain rules to accomodate for something that might not even happen) allow us to create two Pokemon that are simultaneously drastically different and quite similar, which would be a really fun challenge.

Restrictions/Deviations:
  • One of the true constants between all convergent species is that they have the same BST as their "normal" counterparts - therefore, these two CAPs should also have the same BST. They can copy each other's stat totals value for value (as seen with Wugtrio/Dugtrio and Toedscruel/Tentacruel) or the stat values can be slightly tweaked to fit different roles (as seen with Sinistcha/Polteageist), but each of their total BSTs must add up to the same number.
  • The other true constant between all convergent species is that the typing(s) of the convergent species must be super effective against the typing(s) of the "base species". They can share a typing if it fits within this criteria (as seen with Sinistcha/Polteageist, as Ghost is super effective against itself). If both species are dual types, the convergent species should still be able to hit the base species for SE damage with at least one of its STABs (as seen with Toedscruel/Tentacruel - Toedscruel takes neutral damage from both Water and Poison, Tentacruel takes neutral damage from Grass, but it still takes super effective damage from Ground, meaning Toedscruel still has the advantage STAB-wise).
  • The base species and the convergent species must have different Primary Abilities. They can have a different number of Abilities (as seen with Toedscruel/Tentacruel) and they can share a Secondary Ability and/or a Flavor Ability (as seen with Wugtrio/Dugtrio - admittedly this one might need to be tweaked a bit, as it's the part that'll probably give the TLT the most headaches:row:.)
  • The base species and the convergent species can share up to two Defining Moves, but no more than that. This can be a shared STAB move (as seen with Sinistcha/Polteageist - seeing as both are special attacking Ghost types, their most common sets both run Shadow Ball), a good utility move (as seen with Toedscruel/Tentacruel, which both run Knock Off and Rapid Spin on their most common sets) or something unexplored entirely (a non-STAB coverage move that both mons would benefit from, a set-up move, a healing move, etc.) but they can only share two Defining Moves at most, to prevent the two from playing exactly the same. Their Full Movepools also cannot be the exact same - they can share some flavor moves, but there should be moves the base species can learn that the convergent species cannot, and vice versa
  • Finally, the flavor restrictions...
    • Just like with Venomicon's two forms, the base species and convergent species must be designed and submitted as a package by the same artist. The art polls will determine the designs of both the base species and the convergent species as a package - again, same as Venomicon's forms.
    • The names of the CAPs should share one root word (as seen with Toedscruel/Tentacruel, and ofc Dugtrio and Wugtrio are just off by one letter LMAOOOOOOO) (Poltchageist and Sinistcha are a unique case, as their names are based on the opposite evolutionary line member of the base species, but since we save pre-evos until the very end, this is probably a better route to take.)
    • On the topic of pre-evos, each CAP should have one pre-evo. All three convergent species introduced so far are two-stage lines, and while the concept of convergent species is still relatively unexplored and therefore it is entirely possible that Game Freak introduces a convergent of a three stage line or a single stage Pokemon in PLZA in like four months and makes me choke on my words, it's much easier to just stick to the pattern we have.
      • All previous restrictions also apply to the pre-evos.

Admittedly, when laid out like this, it does look quite complicated at first glance. But I still think it would be really interesting to explore, and I have faith that, once we get past the early hurdles, choose our concept, and determine the directions we want to go in, we can make some truly intriguing final products :333
 
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Final Submission

Name: Extra ability

Description: This CAP would have two forms which have a total of 3 unique competitive abilities in addition to a flavour ability. These abilities would be split across the two in some way.

Explanation: Most Caps are built with only one viable ability in mind what about three. This would allow the Pokémon to play with more than one style. There are three Pokémon that already have four abilities and none of them are currently viable. The Pokémon are Basculin, Squakabilly and Rockruff. Basculin’s abilities are all offensive, Squackabilly gets Intimidate and offensive abilities and Rockruff has ok defensive abilities. I think that if Cap took a stab at this it w\could have multiple possible roles. If we use a Basculin/Squakabilly style ability split, both forms share a primary and HA(flavor in CAP). This style gives the oppent a 50/50 guess on your ability like a normal mon. Alternatively, we could use a Rockruff style split one gets 3 abilities the other has just one, allowing the opponent know what ability it runs when against the alt-forme.

Possible Questions:
What role(s) should a pokemon that has many abilities have?
How should the abilities be split across forms?
How strong can the abilities be so that both forms get use?
How does a visible identifier on which ability it might be using affect it?
 
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WIP

Name: Sharp Steel

Description: This CAP would have a move that permits it to set the currently unavailable Sharp Steel hazard, which is currently species locked to Gmax-Copperajah.

Explanation: G-Max Copp has arguably the most interesting G-Max move of gen 8, setting an entirely new type of hazard which was not used in any other way since then. This Concept aims to create a Pokemon designed around Sharp Steel, which will be able to set them thanks to a custom status move, or with a low power attack, similar to Stone Axe or Ceaseless Edge.
 
  • Name - Regional Variant
  • Description - This CAP will be a regional variant (corresponding to this generation i.e. Tauros-Paldean. Or some other generation maybe, who knows) of an existing CAP Pokemon.
  • Explanation - There’s some CAP Pokémon that haven’t had the best success due to Typing, lack of moves it wants, stat distribution not doing it well or some other factor. There’s also some that may not be bad in any major way, but you just wish there were some sort of side-grade that fulfills a certain use-case or team-fit situation. This framework aims to breathe new life into one of CAP’s already existing Pokémon to either upgrade it, or simply give new options to be explored regarding its role (or even an outright role change).
 
Name: RNGesus Take the Wheel

Description: The slate for two out of the following three key stages, Type, Stats and Ability are to be randomly generated according to a set of required parameters to be established during Framework / Concept assessment and voted upon separately before the beginning of the usual process.

Explanation: This is a framework that aims to offer an experience for CAP creation that is completely different to the standard design process as opposed to specifically attempting to create a CAP that cannot normally be produced as a result of the rules, although this may still be possible to some extent as a result of the random nature of the process. By utilising random number generation in these processes, this process aims to consider how we can 'make the most' of what is provided to us, as opposed to designing from the ground up and can allow for conversations and end processes separate from intrinsic viability. It is no surprise that certain types and stat spreads tend to come up in a lot of processes due to their fitness for purpose. Furthermore, we have had many surprise upsets in previous processes with abilities, typings and stats not always making sense together as a result of votes that did not always line up or follow with common discussions in threads or discord that have resulted in some incredibly productive decisions to salvage these at times miscellaneous elements.


Possible Questions:
  • What can the removal of certain typical choices and design features from the standard CAP process teach us about the CAP process at large?
  • Can delaying discussion about the CAP's identity allow for more organic and natural decisions to occur later?
  • How can concept factor into such a process, is it developed following the votes on the random slates, or would the concept inform how we generate the options for ourselves?
  • How will the stages to be randomly generated be chosen during the Framework assessment stage? What can we learn about those stages by removing their initial discussion phases?
  • How will the slates be randomly generated, for example will they be done by the TLT with Veto capabilities? How many options should be included per slate to provide variety and choices for voters?
  • What parameters, particularly on stages such as typing or stats which have multiple interlocking pieces, should be applied to the process of generation to allow for some semblance of viability in the CAP metagame? For example, will there be maximum number ranges? Will slates contain complete stat spreads, type combinations and ability pairings, or will each of the elements be generated separately?
  • How can coming into a process with pre-defined information change the community's approach to later stages? Will more time need to be spent unpacking and unlocking the potential of our CAP?
  • Will the voted upon options be completely immutable, or will subsequent discussions be able to manipulate and improve upon selected elements?
 
WIP

Name: Split Evolution

Description: This CAP will have one pokemon (either an LC or NFE) evolve into two (or more!) different Pokemon that fill different roles (e.g. Snorunt evolving into either Froslass or Glalie, and Gloom evolving into Vileplume or Bellossom.)

Explanation: Although in Pokemon, there has been examples on split evolutions, the outcome is usually one being better competitively than the other, or all of them not being very good. I think that it'd be cool for a framework process to revolve around two pokemon, that although they are related, fill completely different roles although sharing one (or more, even none) of the same typing, ability, or maybe even some stats. In this case, it can be one bulky, stall pokemon, while on the other hand, a fast sweeper. It could be two sweepers, but one as a physical attacker and one as a special attacker. It could be two bulky pokemon, but with one being specially bulky, and one being physically bulky! There's a lot of ways you could do this, and I think it'd make a cool CAP! (I'm still working on this)

Possible Questions: (more coming soon probably?)

- How different do we make these two CAPs be different? Do they have completely different movepools, or are they similar but use them differently/use different moves from their movepool completely?
-Do these pokemon have different abilities? If so, do they share all of them, or just some?
-Do these two evolutions have different (secondary) types, or is the typing identical but the role completely different?
 
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  • Name - HP-based Form Change
  • Description - This Pokemon has an ability that allows it to change form upon hitting a certain HP threshold (Schooling, Shields Down, Zen Mode, Power Construct).
  • Explanation- The idea of HP-based form change hasn't seen much success, with one exception. Zygarde with Power Construct was broken due to its absurd bulk and powerful movepool, but the other 3 Pokemon with such form change abilities (Darmanitan, Wishiwashi, and Minior) are not as fortunate. It would be interesting to take one of these failed archetypes and explore how to implement them in a way that makes them viable in the CAP metagame.
    • This CAP will have 2 forms, and a form change will occur at either 50% HP or 25% HP. There are examples of the transformation persisting afterwards (Power Construct) or reverting upon crossing the threshold again (Schooling, Shields Down, Zen Mode) so we have flexibility in that respect
    • Both forms will have the same movepool and primary typing, but potentially different secondary typing and stats. Notably, we can change HP on form change (eg. Power Construct) and the Pokemon will preserve the amount of missing HP. Additionally, the primary ability of the Pokemon will be fixed (the selected form change ability).
  • Misc. Questions
    • HP-based transformations are inherently unreliable, as it is often difficult to control when the transformation occurs. How can we work around this drawback, or give players tools to more reliably trigger the transformation when they want to?
    • What roles would an HP-based transforming Pokemon best fill? Can such a Pokemon effectively fulfill multiple roles in a team?
    • If the 2 forms have different roles (eg. Darmanitan vs Darmanitan Zen) how do we solve the issue of 4MSS arising from certain moves being useless in one of the forms? Is this a problem that needs to be addressed?
    • Is there any interest in a Defeatist type transformation (eg. Schooling)? Likely not.
 
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sun_dew said:
WIP

Name - Box Legends

Description - This CAP is two legendary Pokémon following the typical conventions of a set of box-art legendaries.

Explanation - Firstly, to define what I mean by the typical conventions of a set of box-art legendaries:
  • Between 660 and 700 BST inclusive, where BST is a multiple of ten
  • Either share types exactly (e.g. :kyurem-black: and :kyurem-white:) or have one type in common
  • Either share abilities exactly (e.g. :dialga: and :palkia:) or have similar abilities (typically with one shared ability)
  • Typically have similar movepools (with adjustments to account for STAB, physical/special bias, and defense/offense orientation)
Click to expand...
I think this idea is incredibly cool. between Kyurem-B & Zamazenta-H we've now had four (count them, four!) generations of OU with a legal box legendary, and I don't think gen 10 is gonna let up on the trend. CAP is notably lacking in big stupid eye-popping stat spreads compared to vanilla OU, and it's kind of unfortunate that the design space is so underexplored here when Big Number Pokemon are often the most fun to sling around & think about. a Pokemon's stat spread often feels like the most straightforward, "instructive" element of its design, so it's always fascinating when you have to sort of think outside the box in order to actually get value out of a spread that looks completely insane on first pass (usually manifesting as some weird antisynergy between STAB type/attacking stats/movepool -- maybe your STAB type/s is/are generally lacking offensively (Kartana); maybe your stat points are clumsily allocated (as mentioned above, Hoopa-U); maybe you simply don't learn crucial moves (Kyurem-B); maybe multiple of the above are true (RBY-ADV Gengar, at varying levels across each gen)).

the sublegend frameworks others have proposed are cool for the same reason, but "sublegend in OU" feels much more "fork found in kitchen"; although KyuB and ZamaH *have* proven that there is room for bad box legends in OU, that still only equates to 2 'mons in an archetype. also, zero restricteds have been intentionally designed at an OU power level thus far (insofar as 'mons are "designed" for competitive 6v6 singles, anyway) -- I think there's a lot of room for creativity here, is all I'm saying!

my only criticism is I think you could get away with just designing one OU-level box legend; it makes sense for flavor reasons to design two, but two whole box legends from the exact same generation both down in OU is completely unprecedented. it would ofc open new and possibly exciting design space for that reason; I just think the default, "axiomatic" approach should be to design only one of these goobers
 
Submissions are fantastic guys, I'm so excited to see how everything develops. I'll be giving each concept a bit of feedback here as a check-in of sorts!

Paradox CAP(s)- Paradoxes are super cool mons and I think this could be an effective process, but it definitely has its difficulties. One feels like almost a mini process with losing a whole stage and having a lot done for us with regards to stages like typing and stats, whereas doing two feels like a TON of work. There's also some worries with regards to flavor and how that end of things will go. All in all, I think its solid.

Aegislash-style Forms- Stance change is epic! Probably one of the best form change mechanics, relatively flexible throughout and would create something interesting. Entirely snapping ability is tricky, though.

Tera Forme CAP- Another really cool form change that ties into the gen mechanic as well, I think this is another very solid one. I would imagine leaning towards more Ogerpon forms than Terapagos would be the best move, and I'd be curious to see how far we could push it. There's interesting nuance here, too, with locked tera type and how Ability interacts, for example.

All-Generation CAP- I think in a perfect world, this would be one of my absolute favorites. However, I think this is just asking too much, and risks too much with the old gens and how they've developed overall. Amazing idea, probably just not the most feasible.

CAP Counterparts- I think I'm waiting on more explanation here cause I'm not entirely following with the examples as-written. I'm not sold on the "complimenting each other" part, as well- that feels like a tough ask. Withholding too much judgement here until I can follow it a bit better.

Rotom Forms- Rotom is cool, but a lot of the allure is that there's a ton of forms (even if the majority of them are kinda bad...). Having two only would be interesting in the sense of seeing how far we could push them AND focusing on making two viable forms, but I wonder if it has enough oomph for a framework overall.

Three-STAB Attacker- Cool idea, though I feel like this could also be a concept? I think there's a good deal of depth here, but I dunno if it fits better in this stage or concept overall.

CAP Family- I think the branched evos aspect of this is significantly more interesting than making an eviolite mon as a part of this. A Slowtwins-style duo could be quite interesting, and I'd enjoy hearing what people think about this one.

Ultra Beast- Though the timing is admittedly weird, this is a cool example that has been brought up before in framework subs as a really effective way of pushing an envelope. Again, snapping a stage entirely does suck, but some of the other aspects like the weird movepools and the interesting stat spread (as well as re-adding a type of mon that hasn't existed all gen) intrigues me.

Doubling Season- This definitely is appealing. Its more hands-off compared to some heavy-handed frameworks that ask a lot, and there's cool dynamics at play with being item dependent and how stats plays into it. Definitely a fan, definitely a bit "safer" almost than other subs.

Meloetta Forms- Extremely cool idea with how badly Meloetta actually delivered on it. It absolutely is one of the most unique form changes, and that helps it stand out against the field. I do wonder if the restrictions on getting to the form change- carrying the move, clicking it every time you come in- are too much to handle, though.

Gulp Missile Reskin- I'm not the hugest fan of this one because I think Gulp Missile is a really, really powerful ability stapled to... well, Cramorant. OU-strength Cram sounds miserable, quite frankly. I think we'd have to mess a LOT with how the actual effect of Gulp Missile plays out, and if that's asking too much? I'm not sure yet.

Lesser Legends- Okay, fair play, this did make me feel like a total stooge for a bit cause I entirely forgot the Lati's existed when thinking if there were legendary duos outside of box legends, lmfao. Now that I've embarrassed myself, I do find a lot of interest in this concept at the jump, though I'm not sure if the restrictions are enough to make for a compelling framework process.

Power Construct- I'm really, really curious if there's a world where we can make a decently balanced 100% form. That's my biggest hangup here, I'm really not sure if that level of increase and the way it plays out in-game is a viable route. The mechanic is really cool, though.

Distinct Functional Mirror- Though it definitely leans maybe a bit too close on touching the official cast, I think this could be a cool idea here. This would interact with concepts in a really interesting way, too. I'm worried it might be a bit too broad at the moment? Make it identical in any two ways to (almost) anything in the game is a LOT of ground to cover early.

birb- birb. Really interesting restrictions here, especially with the BST question with Corvi. Corvi and some others have absolutely proven this is possible, too, which helps ease a lot of fears. Creative design space, even if its something thats traditionally not my favorite sort of concept/framework- ones that put us in a box of weaknesses we have to figure out how to make work.

Box Legends- more possible now than ever, I think, with how Zama has performed in this gen. Zama's still real goddamn good, though, lets not look past that. I think the post later on in thread does highlight how this could be pretty creative, but I think its still going to end up with us kneecapping some combination of stages throughout to make it work. I'm really not sure if the process itself allows for the Kyu-B pre-SS route, where it lacked so many tools that would push it over the edge, or not easily at least.

Type Revenge- I think this fits much better as a concept than as a framework. Nothing to my eyes seems like its actually restricted or modified here?

Eviolite Pairing- I find it a bit hard to picture a successful Eviolite mon in the current day and age, but I'm interested in seeing how we could differentiate the two mons a la Pory2/Z and the scyther/scizor duo.

Urshifu Forms- Urshifus are really cool, and this is definitely focused on being very "achievable" almost. My biggest question is how this plays out without considering the other major aspect of Urshifu's forms- their specific signature moves. Perhaps that's just me having an issue with divorcing the Shifu changes from their sigs, but I think its a question to ask with regards to these changes.

All-Types Coverage- This plays into tera's existence really interestingly, though I'm not sure how effective it really ends up being. Do we really need that much coverage? Would most of it really ever be used?

Perfect Convergence- making a mon and its convergent form at the same time is a really clever idea, I think. Interesting restrictions, too, though I do wonder how this plays out process-wise. Do we value one form over the other? Is one going "first," then the convergent form? Interesting overall, even if I have some questions.

Extra Ability- Pretty simple one, I do like how it plays on how we normally approach the process. I think the execution of making sure it still additionally has a flavor ability, and splitting things into forms, is a little awkward. As an aside, does Battle Bond Gren fall into this category after the changes to Battle Bond? I think so, which points to more of how this could work perhaps?

Sharp Steel- Unsure about the legality of this one, but I think its just too massive of a change for the meta. Introducing a whole new hazard is really, really cool, but knowing it also lasts for pretty much the whole foreseeable future is a bit terrifying. I think this pushes us waaaay too far from being OU relevant and tied, which I think is really important.

Regional Variant- I think leaning into creating a new role based off of an existing CAP is the way to go here, rather than trying to buff something unsuccessful. I'd like to know more about what goes into a regional variant restrictions wise, if those exist.

RNGesus Take the Wheel- I think this is a cool way of using frameworks to mess with the process. I can't say I'm thrilled about randomizing a bunch up front and having to put the pieces together, but it is a cool way of working with stuff.

Split Evolution- Similarly to the branched evos talk I did for CAP Family, I think you've definitely got something to work with here. Cool idea, curious to see how it plays out.

HP Based Form Change- I like how this doesn't box us into one ability specifically, to start. I think these all come with their own unique challenges, and I agree that the Schooling-type negative ones are probably nonstarters. Is Zen Mode too close to that?

Thank you guys again, and remember to reach out for whatever questions you guys might have. Keep the great subs and convos rolling!
 
WIP

Name: Third Type's the Charm

Description: This Pokémon possesses three types simultaneously, breaking the standard dual-typing limit set in the main series games.

Explanation
With each Pokémon typically limited to two types, this Framework would push the boundaries of design by incorporating a third type while maintaining balance and competitive viability. Three types simultaneously is possible in game by effects like Forest's Curse or Trick-or-Treat, which add the
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or
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type respectively on top of the other type(s), which adds an in-game precedent for this suggestion. With a third type this Pokémon could gain additional STAB options while also having a unique resistance and weakness profile. This could create interesting trade-offs, as additional resistances may be offset by increased weaknesses. There are a lot of questions to be asked, like, what if we had three amazing STAB moves but a x8 weakness? This Framework fits within the CAP mission statement because it explores an uncharted aspect of competitive Pokémon design, and can only be doneby the project.

Did you know that if a Pokémon had all 18 types at the same type it would be weak x2 to
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?

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WIP

Name - Calyrex-Style Duo

Description - This duo of Pokemon can either act as separate Pokemon, or as a combined form with combined movepools and As One as its ability, bundling its component abilities into one.

Explanation - With this framework, we can explore a lot of untrodden creative soil of combining abilities and the strategies that can enable. Although Calyrex SR and IR are powerful, they fail to take this concept to a satisfying extreme mainly due to Unnerve being so boring. Like what if we could combine a defensive and offensive ability? What if we combined an ability with an esoteric or inconvenient effect with another ability that could make it a more effective strategy? And what sort of effect would that have of the power budget of CAP 36, not to mention the process? I know that two Pokemon per CAP is a bit of a big ask, but could be ameliorated by designing the combined form first that the two constituent Pokes would just be derivative of.

EDIT: Would appreciate a legality check on this. I submitted it thinking that since the "third" Pokemon/form in this framework is literally just the typings/movepools/abilities of the componeny Pokes smooshed together that it would fit the brief of no more than two Pokemon per framework, but if the legality of similar concepts is being brought up, I don't want to get DQed on a technicality if it is considered 3 Pokes, even if the component and combined forms are so derivative of each other and wouldnt require a full process for one or the other (like the component forms literally just being "the combined forms with less of everything").
 
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Final Submission
Name: Opposite but Equal
Description: A duo of pokemon that are different but at the same time can be used on the same team and not interfere with one another
Explanation: some pokemon counterparts are better than others but what if both counterparts could work together without clashing. Say plusle and minun on the same team is bad because one eq will end them. So say you could use both at the same time. So 2 pokemon that have similar typing and movepools but different stats or abilities and they could be used on the same team to make progress. And different abilities would set them apart from a singles standpoint but at the same time the 2 abilities complement each other like say intimidate plus another ability. Or same stats and typing but different movepools and abilities. Finding a balanced combination of the two will allow the two to be used on the same team or used in different ways.
 
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Okay I know the OP is long but it’s really worth reading if you’re making a submission - I’m seeing a handful of submissions that miss parts of the rules, so I’ll just reiterate some of the more important ones:

- There will be a maximum of two mons (which would need to share heavily similarities so that we don’t have an unmanageable workload, specifics in OP)
- Customs are only allowed if we’re cloning something that’s hard-coded/species locked onto a specific mon. This means that entirely new mechanics such as a triple typing or fourth ability or Spooky Terrain or 200BP CAP Blast or whatever are disallowed. This rule exists purely so we can circumvent the technical limitations behind some of GameFreak’s coolest existing mechanics, NOT so we can Make Our Own Stuff
- The name for your framework must be as literal as possible, no “cutesy” names (save those for your concepts)

Just don’t want anyone to get unexpectedly DQed or spend a bunch of time on something that’s illegal - in short, please read the rules
 
Name - All-In-One CAP Expansion

Description - This CAP is a regional form, look-a-like, evolution, or Paradox variant of a pre-existing CAP, with the intention of mechanically expanding on it or reinventing it.

Explanation - This is overall meant to be an “all-in-one” framework concept that opens up the design space around making an expansion of a pre-existing CAP. I’ve noticed a lot of people on the Discord discussing how pigeonholing into one of these or another would make for a very linear process or at least one without much conviction, and imo something like this accomplishes a few important things you don’t get from having a pre-decided option from the get-go:

1: The community can ascertain which expansion type has the most intriguing or most dynamic design space in Concept Assessment for a more committed and deliberate process

IMO this is really important, because I feel as though if something like a Paradox or Regional variant is already pre-determined, that there would be a lot of uncertainty around the potential/parameters of the direction, which could lead to either a very underwhelming or overly conflicted process.

2: This can provide an extra layer of dialogue around the design space that different kinds of Pokemon expansions tend to explore, and enable more general discussion on how variants/evolutions impact a Pokemon’s role in one direction or another

This can mean either re-inventing the wheel (i.e Porygon-Z) or simply just making a more effective version of the target Pokemon (i.e Great Tusk). I like this point as well because it lets us determine more directly how much each type of expansion can move the needle in one direction or another when it comes to overall improving or recontextualizing a Pokemon’s role. This would also make the framework less about flavor and more about mechanics.

3: Having a more mechanics-based discussion allows us to consider our target CAP’s identity and our chosen direction in a more dedicated competitive context

This one is pretty straight forward and probably obvious, but I think if we have the mindset of “we pick X variant-type because it has the most impact on mechanical improvement on the target Pokemon” it will help guide the kind of CAP we choose to design this CAP process around, and also guide the decisions we make in each stage to help fulfill or redefine the CAP’s original concept in a new way.

The primary issue I see with this concept is how it would likely require multiple concept assessments, but given that we’re doing a framework, that feels like a doable caveat.

-

Lastly, I wanted to explain that I posit doing this for a pre-existing CAP because CAP Pokemon are designed with a designated role/concept in mind, and not only would having that concrete concept be helpful for paving the road for this framework, but it would also give us the opportunity to revisit these CAPs in a very similar way to Baloor’s “Great Artists” concept submission which by itself had a lot of merit for an engaging process.
 
WIP

Randomized Chimera
This CAP can only use the Typing combinations, Abilities and Stats of 10 randomly preselected fully evolved Pokémon.

1 will donate the Typing
1 will donate 1 Ability
1 will donate HP
1 will donate Atk
1 will donate Def
1 will donate SpA
1 will donate SpD
1 will donate Spe
2 will remain as jokers to avoid low or high rolling Pokémon.

Once a Pokémon is used for a stage it cannot be used for other stages anymore.
 
As a warning, this is a very process-nerd framework.

Combo Voting
Description: The top three from the Typing or Ability stage are paired with abilities or typings from the next stage, and the combos are then voted upon. The rest of the process happens as normal.

Explanation: I've noticed this a fair bit in past caps, but we only really begin to evaluate a typing once we start pairing it with abilities. Perhaps this is because the goal of the typing stage is to get your typing to win rather than evaluating typings fairly, but I believe this is because evaluating a typing without looking at how it interacts with abilities is really hard. Hence I'm proposing a modification of the standard CAP process as a framework. In this we'd run the typing stage as normal, and conduct a poll 1 to get three "top" typings. We'd then immediately jump into the ability stage and then discuss abilities using any of the top three typings chosen, and vote for typing-ability pairings at the end of the stage.

1) Select Concept
2) Decide ability first or typing first
3a) Run typing stage as normal, vote as normal, get top 3 typings
4a) Run ability stage, slating pairings of abilities with any of the top 3 typings
3b) Run ability stage as normal, vote as normal, get top 3 abilities
4b) Run typing stage, slating pairings of typings with any of the top 3 abilities
5) Proceed as normal.
 
WIP

Name - Shaymin Style Forms
Description - This CAP will have two playable, selectable forms, with one of the forms undergoing an in-battle transformation into the other if it is inflicted with status. These forms can differ in stat distribution, secondary typing, and Ability, but must share BST, movepool, and primary type.
Explanation - After being lied to that this feature was removed in Gen 9, I am pleased to announce the most obscure form change mechanic in Pokemon. Shaymin and its Sky form don't seem much different from other static form-change Pokemon the Therians or Hoopa-U, but it has the unique and somewhat baffling mechanic of Shaymin-Sky reverting to its base form if it gets frozen during a battle. I doubt many people are even aware this exists, not only because of Shaymin being a mythical, but also because of Shaymin-Sky's rather paltry defenses, horrid 4x Ice weakness, and the rather low rate of Ice-type moves freezing at all. Why GameFreak decided that a Pokemon which probably dies to any Ice-type move that hits it should also revert to it's weaker form when FROZEN is beyond me, but since such a mechanic exists in the game, it presents a perfect opportunity for us to make something far more functional and nuanced. There's a lot of possibilities we can explore; even Shaymin itself sorta gets a lease on life after being frozen since it regains Natural Cure and will thaw itself out when switched! If this was the intention of the mechanic I still don't get it!

What's attractive to me about this framework compared to other form-change subs is how the interaction with status can dynamically change how we play during a match. It's definitely weird, since there's no lock regarding which form we can choose at preview, which makes the prospect for a Poison Heal/Guts approach of applying the status directly a lot less obvious, but there's definitely ways to make it work. At the very least we can have a CAP that is uniquely affected by a particular status either to keep it in check or change how you have to play with it post-status. This is especially nice if we don't like the prospect of balancing two CAPs for the metagame like with Venomicon: the base form doesn't need to be terribly strong if it's more-or-less punishment for letting the alternate form receive status.
 
spoo said:
WARNING
The following thread is intentionally designed as an offshoot of the typical Create-A-Pokemon Project. If you are new to the CAP Project, please read through previous processes to gain a full understanding of what is different here.

Join us on Discord if you have any further questions!​

As per this PR thread, we will be using a Framework for this project. We will adhere to the following rules for the duration of this process:
  • This Pokemon will be playable in the CAP Metagame. Furthermore, it will be reasonably balanced for competitive battles, specifically not a broken threat that negatively centralizes the metagame.
  • The creation of this Pokemon will ONLY break CAP creation guidelines based on the Framework we select. For example, if we choose to create a Pokemon with an illegal ability as our Framework, we will not also allow a custom move for it during Movepool Submissions.
  • NEW: This creation will not allow for any original custom elements. Custom elements will ONLY be allowed as a means to pursue hard-coded mechanics (such as abilities, moves, items, and other game mechanics that would normally be unusable due to a species lock) by cloning and “reskinning” them into usable versions. Custom clones of these mechanics should be identical or near-identical to their original versions, with minor changes permitted when necessary to avoid being pigeonholed into restrictive design choices such as specific typings or stat lines. These clones should respect and be consistent with GameFreak’s original design intention as much as possible. For example, a clone of Griseous Orb that boosts STAB Poison- and Flying-type attacks, or a Stance Change clone that swaps defensive stats with offensive stats when using the move Spiky Shield would be allowed, however a Fire-type version of Ceaseless Edge or Special Intimidate would not be, as neither Ceaseless Edge nor Intimidate are species-locked.
  • This Pokemon will have a Framework that constrains the results of, at maximum, two competitive stages of the process. An example of this would be a framework that dictates our typing and primary ability. An illegal Framework would also mandate a specific stat bias on top of those restrictions. Furthermore, the two stages trivialized must be linked (e.g. an Ultra Beast that requires Beast Boost and a 570 BST).
  • This framework should not impose an undue burden upon the CAP creation process. Any framework should not require a substantial amount of effort and time beyond that of a standard CAP. It may include a maximum of 2 Pokemon/forms, which should share at least 1 of the exact same typing combinations, set of abilities, statlines, and full movepools, and among the remaining 3 stages, at least 2 should have heavy similarities (eg at least one shared typing, at least one shared ability, etc). If the Pokemon/forms share 2 or more stages completely, there is no requirement for the non-shared stages to be similar.
Additionally, please follow these rules when posting in this thread:
  • One submission per person. You may edit your Framework, but you may not change the fundamental premise after it has been posted. If editing your Framework, please edit the original post instead of posting a new revision. Do not bump your Framework after you have posted it. If people do not comment on it, so be it.
  • Do not duplicate or closely-resemble Framework already posted by others. It is your responsibility to read through all previous submissions in this thread to ensure you are complying with this rule. Ignorance or laziness is not an excuse.
  • Do not refer to any part of the Pokemon's artistic design. For example, the following phrases would be illegal:
"This is a bright blue Pokemon..."
"The Pokemon looks like a..."
"The Pokemon uses its long tail to..."
  • A Framework Submission must be submitted in the proper format. The format is described below. If the proper format is not used, it will be considered invalid, regardless of content.
Framework Submission Format

Use this format for all concept submissions: Here is the format with tags. Just copy/paste this into your post, and fill it out:
  • Name - Unlike Concept Submissions, your name CANNOT be anything cutesy. Please list EXACTLY which process rule(s) you intend to break with the name. Some examples would be "Multitype CAP" and "Ultra Beast CAP."
  • Description - This is the official description of the concept, and must follow ALL the content rules listed above. Do not make this a long description. Long descriptions are invariably too specific or too convoluted. Keep it short. Any more than a sentence or two is TOO MUCH. Do NOT include your Explanation of the concept in the Description. See "Explanation" below.
  • Explanation - This can contain just about anything. This is where you can explain your concept without restraint. You may make suggestions, even specific suggestions, regarding the possible implementation of the Framework. This explanation should help facilitate discussion of the Framework -- but the Explanation is NOT part of the Framework and will be omitted from the polls and any future use of the Framework. Since your explanation is non-binding, regarding future polls and threads, it will not be evaluated for purposes of determining if your Framework is legal or illegal. Although it is tempting, refrain from making too long of an explanation; it will deter readers from fully considering your Framework.
It is the submitter's responsibility to figure out how to make a legal submission within the rules listed above. Do not complain about the difficulty of making a submission in this thread. There are many, many legal Frameworks that can be presented within the rules. The Framework is a very basic guide for the creation process. It is hard to provide solid concept descriptions without basically designing the entire Pokemon right off the bat. Submissions should be written and chosen very carefully to avoid these problems. If you have any doubts about anything, feel free to contact a Mod via PM or Discord and we will answer your questions.

At the end of this discussion, the TL will select a slate of Frameworks. The CAP Mod team will perform a final legality check of the slated frameworks. Those that pass will then go to a poll, where the winning submission will be decided.
Click to expand...
Name- Rngesus reborn as a legendary
Description- basically just a pokemon that tips rng in its favor.
Explanation- it has serene grace and moves with special effects that have a high chance of that effect working. It has moves like tri attack and stuff like that. It also has a signature move called rolling sixes. Rolling sixes is a more powerful tri attack, and it also has the chance to poison, confuse, and put opponent to sleep. To balance this move out, the chance of these effects happening is 5% (10% because serene grace) also, i gotta give credit to the person who made rngesus take the wheel because i got inspiration from them.
 
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ausma said:
WIP

Name - All-In-One CAP Variant

Description - This CAP is a regional form, look-a-like, or Paradox variant of a pre-existing CAP.

Explanation

This is overall meant to be an “all-in-one” framework concept that opens up the design space around making a variant of a pre-existing CAP. I’ve noticed a lot of people on the Discord discussing how pigeonholing into one of these or another would make for a very linear process or at least one without much conviction, and imo something like this accomplishes a few important things you don’t get from having a pre-decided option from the get-go:

1: The community can ascertain which variant type has the most intriguing or most dynamic design space in Concept Assessment for a more committed and deliberate process

IMO this is really important, because I feel as though if something like a Paradox or Regional variant is already pre-determined, that there would be a lot of uncertainty around the potential/parameters of the direction, which could lead to either a very underwhelming or overly conflicted process.

2: This can provide an extra layer of dialogue around the design space that Pokemon variants tend to explore, and enable more general discussion on how variants impact a Pokemon’s role in one direction or another

This can mean either re-inventing the wheel (i.e Hisuian Samurott) or simply just making a more effective version of the target Pokemon (i.e Great Tusk). I like this point as well because it lets us determine more directly how much each variant-type can move the needle in one direction or another when it comes to overall improving or recontextualizing a Pokemon’s role. This would also make the variant framework less about flavor and more about mechanics.

3: Having a more mechanics-based discussion allows us to consider our target CAP in a more dedicated competitive context

This one is pretty straight forward and probably obvious, but I think if we have the mindset of “we pick X variant-type because it has the most impact on mechanical improvement on the target Pokemon” it will help guide the kind of CAP we choose to design this CAP process around, and also guide the decisions we make in each stage to help fulfill or redefine the CAP’s original concept in a new way.

The primary issue I see with this concept is how it would likely require multiple concept assessments, but given that we’re doing a framework, that feels like a doable caveat.
Click to expand...
This was exactly my pitch but I didn't want to restrict it to CAPs specifically for the basis. I really think the exploration of "what makes a pokemon unique" is the key drive here. For all intents and purposes Game Freak has been basically remaking pokemon for generations now. Regional forms usually carry different typings but similar stats and roles to the base. Paradox pokemon carry similar typings but significantly buffed stats and a variety of different roles than their base. Ecologically similar pokemon fit into a similar pattern to regional forms, yet remain a different species in the pokedex and therefore can be used alongside their base.

What has to change for a pokemon to feel like its own thing, and not simply a variant of an existing mon? For my money Iron Valiant feels nothing like Gardevoir or Gallade, but Wugtrio, Dugtrio, and Dugtrio-Alola all feel like the same pokemon to me. Is there a benefit to sticking close to something known? For gamefreak its clear that there is a marketing advantage to sticking close to familiar elements, but for CAP maybe we want to branch out further.

I would add that I think evolution should also be considered as an option, albeit probably a weaker one than those listed here. Evolution creates a new pokemon but one that is related to the previous one. It does come with a buff in some competitive aspect in almost all cases, and allows for eviolte usage on the previous form, which could be a downside. But I wouldn't rule it out. It's interesting for example to think about the difference between Kingambit and Bisharp, a pair that hold very similar roles but feel like distinct pokemon.

This concept necessarily breaks some stages but we can choose which ones. Role, typing, stats limit, all of these are not necessarily shared between the base pokemon and their new cousin. One of those options probably should be restricted a bit, but that can be figured out in concept assessment. If anything the main restriction would be in the flavour stage.

GameFreak has been making these kinds of pokemon since Sun and Moon, or XY if you count mega evolutions. I think it's time for CAP to try it.
 
Name - Pledge Move Optimization
Description - This CAP would consist of a trio of pokemon who would contribute to effectively using the Pledge moves as part of a CAP Doubles Battle, while still having effectiveness within the CAP singles format.
Explanation - Pledge moves haven't found much use within competitive pokemon at all, even despite VGC being a doubles style game-mode. Pledge moves are previously limited to Starters, Mew and the Monkeys. The monkeys, while not stellar, opens the way for this Framework to be non starers, as much STAB might be a priority. As Double Pledge removes 2 attacks for a 150BP move with rider effect, STAB and Special Attack are defined as part of this Framework, but there is plenty of other interactions to decide upon and make useful even if one of their STABS is 80BP.
 
Final Submission


Name: Zero to Hero Reskin

Description: This CAP irreversibly changes to a form that fulfills a different role upon first switching out.

Explanation: Zero to Hero, in its current form, is essentially a flavor-based restriction inspired by the classic Superman transformation trope. However, its implementation leaves little room for decision-making—because Palafin's Hero form outclasses its base form in every way, switching out immediately is the obvious and only viable play. But what if both forms had distinct, meaningful roles? How would that impact the decision to switch?

This framework explores that possibility by leveraging Zero to Hero’s switch-based, permanent form change mechanic by adding a cost to switching the default form out. Instead of a mere stat upgrade, the transformation would mean an irreversible change of the CAP’s stats to fit a different role while maintaining the same typing, and loss of the initial role.

Pokémon that currently "shift roles" do so within a narrow scope. For example, Dragapult can transition from a more defensive function revenge killer into a late-game cleaner, or Calm Mind + Knock Off Clefable can bulky pivot early before becoming a win condition. This framework, however, takes role condensation a step further by enabling a design space of drastically different utility, offense, and defense roles to be combined. For instance, one form could act as a dedicated lead before switching out to reveal a form suited to wallbreaking, tanking, or sweeping. The forms could work in natural synergy, like a wallbreaker that transitions into a cleaner, or serve entirely different functions. Zero to Hero has thus yet to be fully explored beyond its existing, one-dimensional implementation and we can explore more using this framework.

Possible Questions:

• Should the CAP lean toward the default form setting up for the second form or both forms functioning independently?

• How do you balance the forms so the default form is essential to how you play the pokemon, but not so strong that you’d keep it in until it faints?

• Given the one-time use of the default form, when should it enter battle for maximum value, and when should you switch it out?

• What advantages does condensing two roles into one Pokémon have over using two specialized Pokémon, despite limitations like shared moves, IVs/EVs, and typing? How valuable is the one team slot freed up?

• In CAP design, how does having two separate lists of checks and counters affect the process?

Many thanks to Amamama for the discussion we had on Discord months ago which formed the basis of this idea along with its examples.
 
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WIP

Name: One Hit-Point Wonder

Description: This Pokemon is hardcoded to have 1 HP and an ability that requires clever, unconventional means to OHKO it.

Explanation: The idea here is to experiment with what a Pokemon besides Shedinja could do with 1 HP, such as Sturdy shenanigans that only allow KO via entry hazards, burn/poisoning, sandy weather, or something else.

sorry if this was posted before and removed, i forgot if it was or not. i also do not expect it to be considered tbh
 
Final Submission

Name: Stellar Tera Counter

Description: This CAP innately has the Stellar typing and Stellar Tera Blast/Tera Starstorm

Explanation: This framework is a second chance at utilizing the unique strengths of the Stellar typing in a more healthy way than Terapagos did. Perhaps we could implement with a forme change similar to Terapagos, but it's also more than possible to give our new CAP the typing and related STAB baseline without much trouble.

There are a variety of ways we can implement this without stepping on Terapagos' toes. We can make our new Framework more focused on revenge killing, using a faster and more frail variant and relying on Stellar STABs ability to hit tera'd targets effectively. Alternatively we can use Stellar typing true typing neutrality to make a strong wall with good utility options.
 
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Imw0rstadP0keM0n said:
Final Submission

Name: Stellar Tera Counter

Description: This CAP einnately has the Stellar typing and Stellar Tera Blast/Tera Starstorm

Explanation: This framework is a second chance at utilizing the unique strengths of the Stellar typing in a more healthy way than Terapagos did. Perhaps we could implement with a forme change similar to Terapagos, but it's also more than possible to give our new CAP the typing and related STAB baseline without much trouble.

There are a variety of ways we can implement this without stepping on Terapagos' toes. We can make our new Framework more focused on revenge killing, using a faster and more frail variant and relying on Stellar STABs ability to hit tera'd targets effectively. Alternatively we can use Stellar typing true typing neutrality to make a strong wall with good utility options.
Click to expand...
Note that the Stellar typing doesn't have a "typing neutrality", when hacked onto a Pokemon, it is considered as a Poison Type defensively.
 
Final Submission
Name: This move can't be used? It's recommended that this move is forgotten? Once forgotten, this move can't be remembered? OH, PLEASE!
Description: This Pokémon can use one regular move that is unusable in Generation IX as a signature move, and anything else that goes along with that!
Explanation: To this day, we still wonder why moves were dexited in addition to Pokémon. Maybe they were too complex to code onto the Switch, maybe no-one learned them, maybe they were to ensure that those Hidden Power users had to look for those other options. This framework aims to explore the potential metagame impact if a move was undexited for just one Pokémon to use. After all, it did wonders for Tail Glow....
 
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