CAP 35 - Part 5 - Defining Moves

[SHSP]

CAP35 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop a list of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves from the "Choose At Least One" or "Optional" lists will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists, as needed:

1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move / these moves.
2. Choose At Least One: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for at least one of these moves.
3. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use these moves or not.

Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:

• Boosting Moves
• Recovery Moves
• High Base-Power Moves
• Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazards, etc.)

Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities (outside of those already voted for by the community).

 

[SHSP]

Alrighty folks, now that we've got a typing and ability down, its as good a time as any to get talking about some Defining Moves. I wanted to start us off with some questions that jump to mind immediately before we get to discussing specific moves themselves.

Firstly, I wanted to look at our contradiction. We're looking to be a wall more than anything else, which immediately brings to mind utility options. Most successful defensive mons/walls are going to have some sort of strong utility option: as some quick examples, look at Cresceidon's TWave or Encore, Alomomola's Wish-passing, or Ting-Lu's hazard setting. What utility options come to mind as being good fits for CAP 35's build so far, and the contradiction its looking to achieve?

Along the same lines, we have to look at our ability. Electromorphosis is extremely unique and has the potential to be a very strong asset for us, but is absolutely something we have to take into account moving forward with how it can shape how CAP 35 plays out. Does any type of utilty come to mind as working particularly well with Electromorphosis? How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

I'm really looking forward to this one, it looks like we have a really fascinating move stage on our hands here. I'm starting off with a rough 48 hour deadline on this first set of questions, and we'll go from there!

 

[Amamama]

What utility options come to mind as being good fits for CAP 35's build so far, and the contradiction its looking to achieve?

Given our dire matchup into spinners it's clear that hazards are out of the question. Its going to be really tough to keep hazards up, when Libra and Tusk seem like excellent checks at this point.

To be able to make progress especially into Libra, but also Tusk and Ting Lu knock off and none volatile status that can hit ground types is going to be strong. Especially wisp seems really good making Tusk and Ting Lu much less of an issue offensively and enables 35 to make progress against them. Toxic is still also good for targeting some of these grounds, but given that equi, Gliscor and galarking look like solid answers right now, it's less potent.
While Twave or Nuzzle would be the natural inclusion on am electric type, to actually cripple these switch ins, we likely want Glare if para is the status of choice.

Gliscor is probably the biggest head scratcher, as classic modes of progress via utility fail against it. Not sure how to solve this with utility, that isn't super gimmicky (Gastro Acid, Heal Pulse+Knock).

I think something of note is a very solid offensive matchup into argh, Hamurott and venom, while being really awkward for Dengo to switch in, which could allow defog or spin to work. Not sure how good that really is when other hazard setters shit on us, but having an option to also remove screens isn't bad.

Other minor options could be Haze or Heal Bell given our mostly neutral matchup spread, but these likely would require a large investment in stats if considered as main option.

Does any type of utilty come to mind as working particularly well with Electromorphosis? How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

Soak as proven by Bellibolt is probably the most notable option to give to 35, that complements Electromorphosis.
Other moves that would possibly be strong with this is debuff moves targeting offense, Like strength SAP, wisp. Taking less damage makes it easier to fish for boosts on electromorph.
Idt we need a limit for electric offensive moves, though we should assume Discharge and Volt Switch as main options. If someone wants to run 35 with thunder on rain that's fine to me.

One thing I wanna get out now even if it wasn't asked, is that offensive boosting should be off the table, given that tera blast is STAB it becomes much less of an issue to run on any set and makes this Mon a natural option for using tera, even more than it already does.

 

[a fairy]

What utility options come to mind as being good fits for CAP 35's build so far, and the contradiction its looking to achieve?

Walls need to be able to survive. It's not a great wall if it folds quickly, unable to maintain staying power against the 'mon(s) that it is motivated to switch into. We have few resistances per our contradiction, so cannot rely on a power debuff to stomach hits with. While recovery is common to walls, we may want to consider whether we can juice up our recovery even more than usual. With Electromorphosis, we've decreased the amount of non-Electric moves we want to be running (as using something other than an Electric-type attack wastes the Charge boost) - which perhaps gives us the flexibility of free moveslots for more healing when necessary. Blissey can't run both Softboiled and Wish not because it has some move incompatibility, but because it has so many other things it may want to run. Do we? What else do we need more than something to make use of Charge with, paired along with longevity solutions?

Parabolic Charge is probably the elephant in the room, so I want to address that here - I don't think this is a good fit. I think that following in Bellibolt's footsteps so closely by seeing the 'natural marriage' limits our exploration of the concept. It doesn't give us the depth of determining when to commit to using Charge and when to let it pass, it limits our healing to things that aren't immune to Electric, and honestly it's just... Bellibolt? I dunno. Bellibolt doesn't even run Parabolic Charge in the common set in PU, its tier, only running it 25% of the time for the 5th most move. Is Bellibolt's failure an interesting enough exploration? I'm not sure, I don't think it is.

Does any type of utilty come to mind as working particularly well with Electromorphosis?

I was actually thinking of this in the opposite direction, as mentioned above. Discharge is a great option, being boosted by Electromorphosis, threatening paralysis, and doing decent enough damage, but that's been mentioned before. Nuzzle is Nuzzle. Electroweb is an interesting option, setting up whatever comes in to threaten our 'mon with being slower than a teammate of our 'mon. Thunder Cage is a fascinating move trapped on a decidely not-a-wall, an interesting trapping tool wasted on a 'mon that absolutely doesn't care to be doing things that don't involve OHKOes.

But we lose Charge when not dealing damage, so any non-Electric damaging moves have to be real worth it or we have to be okay often in-battle to losing the Charge.

How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

We should avoid going too strong. Anything better than Thunderbolt is probably outside of power scope without making some allowances in Stats, if I had to guess. Walls are walls not because they have access to the 100+ power inaccurate moves, they're reliable and consistent hit takers who can (sometimes, looking at you Alomomola...) do decent enough chip. With Electromorphosis, we can sort of rely on access to a small power boost on enough hits that we don't need to dip into base power to provide a role already not known for doing a ton of damage with a lot of damage.

 

[IronTemplar]

Does any type of utilty come to mind as working particularly well with Electromorphosis? How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

In particular I’d like to focus on moves like Parabolic Charge (HP recovery) and possibly Thunderclap. The hilarity factor of the latter being just how brutal it can be. The former allows us to invest much less in defence to prioritize speed or damage

 

[kenn]

I am posting as a user and not TL blah blah blah lol

Firstly, I wanted to look at our contradiction. We're looking to be a wall more than anything else, which immediately brings to mind utility options. Most successful defensive mons/walls are going to have some sort of strong utility option: as some quick examples, look at Cresceidon's TWave or Encore, Alomomola's Wish-passing, or Ting-Lu's hazard setting. What utility options come to mind as being good fits for CAP 35's build so far, and the contradiction its looking to achieve?

I think some good utility options are pretty obvious for 35 to be a great wall despite it's typing, but 50% recovery is a good start. Allowing CAP 35 to heal itself immediately is definitely gonna feed into our wall-like nature while hopefully leveraging our typing to tank the hits we are meant to take. I truly think that a 50% recovery move is gonna be 35's best bet at keeping itself around. I also think looking into status spreading is beneficial as we not only have potential STABs with those kinds of secondary effects, but that also allows 35 to carve out a potential niche on a team. I do think entry hazards/hazard removal are a no-go here strictly because we lose to almost every setter or spinner like Great Tusk or Equilibra so we would be hard pressed to either keep hazards up or keep them gone. If 35 ends up potentially fast enough to "stallbreak" versus other walls via options like  Taunt or  Encore that could be good options as well to be a "wall that beats other walls" which could be a good reason to have 35 on the team.

Along the same lines, we have to look at our ability. Electromorphosis is extremely unique and has the potential to be a very strong asset for us, but is absolutely something we have to take into account moving forward with how it can shape how CAP 35 plays out. Does any type of utilty come to mind as working particularly well with Electromorphosis? How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

The first thing that comes to mind with our ability, Electromorphosis, is how 35's Electric STAB is powered up and how there are some great utility STAB options with moves like Discharge or Parabolic Charge. Outside of that, I think there are definitely some powerful moves that can be used well in conjunction with 35's Electric STAB that provide massive utility. The 2 that come to mind are Super Fang and Knock Off. Both allow us to annoy the Ground-types that will inevitably switch into our potentially beefed up Electric STAB. I think these allow us to lean more into the goal of being a wall and it helps leverage our newly voted on ability to be the best like no one ever was ;)

 

[Docter_Peng99]

For STAB id say Parabolic Charge as it grants healing, as a wall you will need healing and it factors in the ability as well. As for other options Glare, Taunt, or Knock Off would help in its support. For Normal STAB I feel Boomburst could potentially help it although it probably not use it as much compared to its other moves. As for other support options I'd say maybe Heal Bell, Encore or Will-O-Wisp/Toxic to annoy physical attakers or put stuff like hemo or tera ground kingambit on a timer. The defining moves should mostly be support oriented as it's a wall but it's preferred electric stab would help healing without needing recover. The other two can help disrupt stall or balance by locking stuff into rather useless moves or healing off status from stuff like gliscor or common will-o-wisp users like Dragapult. I forgot about coverage but I feel that Shadow Ball and Surf would be helpful although it would probably still use its support moveset a lot more compared to its coverage.

 

[Scepticskep]

With Electromorphosis, we've decreased the amount of non-Electric moves we want to be running (as using something other than an Electric-type attack wastes the Charge boost)

But we lose Charge when not dealing damage, so any non-Electric damaging moves have to be real worth it or we have to be okay often in-battle to losing the Charge.

Just gonna chime in here: the charge effect does not wear off if you don’t use an Electric move: in fact, being able to sit on the charge and save it for a crucial attack is one of the highlights of Electromorphosis. Given that, I definitely think we have room for non-electric coverage or any non-electric damaging move.

I agree with your other points though.

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

Electromorphosis heavily incevitizes folks to pivot in Ground types to prevent taking doubled damage from CAP 35's electric STAB. Therefore, I think it's critical that we have at least a few moves (status or attacking) that punish potential ground switch in to allow us to play mind games with our opponents.

What I don't think is a good idea is *any* form of set up. Even Iron Defense/Amenesia are very dangerous when Electromorphosis gives us effectively Huge Power for taking chip.

My next post (when I get home from work) will likely be dissecting our various Electric STAB options, but I wanted to chip a quick point here before the rest of my workday.

 

[aaronarium]

Although it has anti-synergy with Volt Switch which we will likely be using a lot due to the interaction with Electormorphosis, I do like the idea of using defense-boosting moves like Cotton Guard, Cosmic Power, Amnesia, and their ilk for the simple reason of us being able to use more procs of our ability since heightened defenses will allow us to take more attacks and therefore induce Electormorphosis more often and more reliably. When we can lessen the burden taking attacks has, then I also believe that we have a greater ability to viably use weaker moves with defensive utility like Parabolic Charge or stat-lowering moves, which could also work to reinforce our role as a wall and not a tank, by creating the framework that allows for weaker moves to shine.

 

[Robraf]

Alrighty folks, now that we've got a typing and ability down, its as good a time as any to get talking about some Defining Moves. I wanted to start us off with some questions that jump to mind immediately before we get to discussing specific moves themselves.

Firstly, I wanted to look at our contradiction. We're looking to be a wall more than anything else, which immediately brings to mind utility options. Most successful defensive mons/walls are going to have some sort of strong utility option: as some quick examples, look at Cresceidon's TWave or Encore, Alomomola's Wish-passing, or Ting-Lu's hazard setting. What utility options come to mind as being good fits for CAP 35's build so far, and the contradiction its looking to achieve?

Along the same lines, we have to look at our ability. Electromorphosis is extremely unique and has the potential to be a very strong asset for us, but is absolutely something we have to take into account moving forward with how it can shape how CAP 35 plays out. Does any type of utilty come to mind as working particularly well with Electromorphosis? How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

I'm really looking forward to this one, it looks like we have a really fascinating move stage on our hands here. I'm starting off with a rough 48 hour deadline on this first set of questions, and we'll go from there!

Utility Options:

Super Fang: With mons such as Gliscor, Tusk, Ting-Lu etc. being some no brain switch ins, a move such as Superfang could punish reckless switch ins. It allows CAP35 to deal some consistent damage with the exception for Ghosts types which we are naturally good against.

Knock Off: Amazing move for a wall such as CAP35 to make progress. Also very flexible, so while I‘m expecting to see CAP35 getting a bunch of utility moves having the flexibility to choose between so many great tools is certainly strong.

Recover/Wish: Not sure if 35 should get both but even if something such as Electromorphosis + Parabolic Charge is very intuitive, it should by any means not be the only option of recovery. Wish would especially be beneficial if 35 should get a high base HP Base. Being a wall and especially one with contradictory Typing we don‘t have many resists. Meaning that if we wanna function well as a wall we need our stats in our defenses. High Base HP with decent to good defensive stats seem the most logical approach. Here comes Wish into play were we can take hits and use a big wish and potentially slow momentum V-switch to heal chipped pokemon or to just get them in safely. Recover on the otherhand would be our immediate healing tool. Recover can also be swapped out here with Roost, Milk Drink, Slack Off or Soft-Boiled if it better fits the theme of the Design.

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• Strength Sap: This is probably my favorite Recovery move here for 35 as it also matches quite well with the ability Electromorphosis. Debuffing our opponent and therefore taking lighter hits works perfect with out ability to soak hits and retaliate even harder.​

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Thunder Cage: Aside of moves such as Thunderbolt, V-switch, Discharge and Parabolic Charge I believe that a move such as Thunder Cage fits both our walling aspect but also takes good advantage of Electromorphosis. We deal out consistent trapping damage putting mons in potentially awkward positions.

Glare: While Thunderwave actually uses up our Electromorphosis Charge boosts being an electric type status move, Glare totally circumvents this issue. This makes Glare a better paralysis spreading contestor for 35. I would actually entirely dismiss Thunder Wave as a whole for being less flexible with our ability. Glare being a Normal type Status move would also make sense with our Electric/Normal typing. I mean it‘s a Normal Status Move that inflicts paralysis, the perfect move for an Electric/Normal type thematically speaking.

Taunt: One if not the best Stall Breaker utility option. I don‘t think I need to elaborate on this much. Besides forcing our foe to attack, further underscores the concept we are taking with Electromorphosis.

Encore: Being a wall we obviously don‘t wanna be fodder to mons taking full advantage and setting up infront of us. Therefore Encore is an amazing tool to impede setup. In the end the Speed Stat of 35 will matter a lot to determine how strong Encore would be but even slow Encore has its use and provides security.

Will-O-Wisp: I already mentioned it with Strength Sap and the same goes for Will-O-Wisp. Debuffing our foe and sponging hits to get charged up is very much pro concept. I believe that with Burn and paralysis spreading we can dismiss Toxic. Scald would be another strong option as it can spread burns while simultaneously threatening the incoming Ground types for super effectice damage. Idk if 35 should be a holder of such a coverage move tho as it could be overbearing.

Soak: Being an Electric/Normal Wall the intuitively most common switch ins would be ground types such as Tusk, Gliscor, Ting-Lu or Landorus-T. Now if we could catch their switch ins with a well placed Soak would any of them wanna stay in? Soak would give us another option to annoy Ground Types. Definitely more niche than most other moves 35 could run but with the amount of great Ground types in the meta it could see play.

Volt Switch/U-Turn: I don‘t need to say much to Volt Switch but U-turn could be another pivoting move that allows us to pivot out against Ground Types as well as Electric Immune Pokemon while also dealing some chip to Grass Types.

Heal Bell: An extremly scarce utility tool in Gen9 with only the last CAP entry Chuggalong, Chimecho and the Blissey evolution line getting access to it. This addition would give 35 another unique tool in the current meta game and allow it to fill specific roles in teams that no other Pokemon could fulfill.

Nuzzle: Already mentioned by others but Nuzzle is a very straight forward approach. Spreading paralysis without having to fear being taunted is an outstanding utility. I would consider both Glare and Nuzzle.

Perish Song: I don‘t believe this to be necessarily strong but if Thunder Cage should be added I believe that a Perish Trap Combination would at least be something interesting to explore. These strategies rarely work as they need too much setup but they can be quite disruptive. Even alone Perish Song is a liability to any setup sweep approaches.

Court Change: Some people already mentioned that 35 shouldn’t be used to remove or set hazards as its MU against the most common hazard setters/removers such as Libra, Tusk etc. is quite poor. I agree with that but why not combine both. Since we can‘t set them properly or really remove them efficiently then why not try to deter them from even wanting to stack hazards. Court Change would exactly do that. We combine both applying hazards and removing hazards. It‘s probably the best we can do even tho Court Change can never entirely prevent hazards. While we already counter Gholdengo very nicely the option of Court Change would give us another edge since Good as Gold doesn‘t block Court Change.

Whirlwind/Roar: The ability to phase Pokemon may not be as strong as it was in past gens but it certainly is still a tool with its merits. Similar moves such as Circle Throw or Dragon Tail can also be considered as they deal damage while simultaneously being unsusceptible to Taunt. I‘d personally prefer Whirlwind/Roar tho as they circumvent Substitutes and bypass accuracy checks.

Leech Seed: An outstanding tool for a wall to deal consistent damage but also to force out foes. It‘s also an utility move that would benefit our ability Electromorphosis. We can take hits and get charged up while simultaneously dealing massive blows and getting recovered.

Other Utility moves I‘d think could have interesting applications:
Heart Swap
Healing Wish
Spiky Shield
Burning Bulwark
Switcheroo
Topsy-Turvy

 

[LouisCyphre]

(This started as a more scattered, move-listing post draft before the thread went up; sorry for the disarray.)

What utility options come to mind as being good fits for CAP 35's build so far, and the contradiction its looking to achieve?

• I'm taking some kind of 50% Recovery as assumed for our role. Wish is my favorite of this group; it gives our CAP an additional role compression and encourages the CAP to stay in to leverage their Charge buff.
• I think Thunder Wave is more interesting than usual for this CAP for the same reason: Using it is a waste of our Charge buff, meaning the CAP has to use it more thoughtfully.

There are also some forms of utility I don't currently prefer:

• I discourage Magnet Rise for this CAP, since it undermines the contradiction built into our typing in a more direct way than Skill Swap.
• I dislike that Parabolic Charge heals nothing when our best checks switch in. I think this CAP sinks or swims based on how well it can use that single turn it tends to generate. Having recovery that only works after our checks are removed undermines our potential as a wall.
• I think Pain Split can seem like an attractive way to make progress while walling opponents, and it flows naturally with taking hits to gain Charge. I feel like it threatens our switch-ins too much, though, overshadowing Electromorphosis.
• An obvious way to interact with Electromorphosis is Taunt, forcing foes to either grant us Charge or switch out. I am not sure how good this is practically, since the main way our opponents will handle the CAP is by switching to a Ground-type.

How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

In practice, the answer is "stronger than you'd think." The main way our CAP seems to operate is: 1) We switch in on an attacker we can wall 2) We gain Charge from their attack 3) The opponent is forced out to a Ground-type 4) We are forced out.

In that bread-and-butter sequence, we've done our job as a wall: The non-Ground attacker was indeed forced out. But at no point in did we launch an Electric-type attack!

That example does bury the lede a little. We have options during our first turn in play: We can deliver on the threat of our Charge, or we can do something else. The opponent can switch if they expect an Electric Attack, or stay in if they expect us to be bluffing. If we don't present a credible damage threat with our Charge buff, then our ability doesn't actually matter, even if we instead threaten to status the opponent or otherwise bother them.

We've picked a path where our CAP needs some level of offensive presence to deliver on their design. Our CAP should at least be able to 3HKO the Pokemon we decide they should threaten with Electric attacks, so that we 2HKO with one Charged hit and one uncharged hit, and so that we threaten an OHKO on a Charged crit.

I don't think we actually need to be too restrained with our damage output: The biggest threats to us are taking nothing from Charged attacks anyway. As long as Electric-resistant Pokemon like Malaconda can comfortably stomach our choiced Charged attack, and then heal up in front of our uncharged attacks, our CAP will be pushed out of an offensive or breaker role.

The need to present credible damage with our STAB, without stepping out of our walling role, implies that our CAP should have limited coverage. By denying the CAP powerful Ice-type attacks, we ensure we aren't sweeping past the Grass- or Dragon-types that will have to take our attacks, and ensure we aren't overburdening just the tier's Ground-types with handling our CAP. I am less apprehensive of moderately strong Water-type coverage; which makes most Electric-immune Pokemon think twice before coming in without allowing our CAP to break merely Electric-resistant foes.

Speaking of Ground-targeting coverage: If we'd prefer that our CAP attack Ground-types on the switch or else be forced out, I like Mystical Fire as a way to reward hitting Equilibra on the switch only. If we fail to predict and waste our Charge, we are forced out. If we manage to lower their Attack on the way in, we have a chance to stabilize our HP, wear their attack stat down, and force them out instead—while preserving our Charge!

 

[dex]

Thoughts on moves suggested so far. I ignored Discharge/Volt/Thunder Wave since those are pretty given (i.e. common STAB moves...). I color coded the options for quick reference with Green for things I think are very good/strong options that CAP 35 should probably not get too many of, Yellow for things that are kinda meh/niche options that are pretty ok to tack on. I also used Yellow for things that I think are very stat reliant. Red is reserved for the options that I think just aren't good enough to ever see any sort of play! I only mark things as Red if I think they should have 0 impact on future discussion.

Knock Off: Knock Off is a good move that does good move things. It is a natural deterrent to a lot of the tier and gives an OK way to pressure the offensive Ghost-types. The fact that this mon has a positive matchup into one of the tier's best absorbers (Arghonaut) is not lost on me, and I think this would just be generally strong.

Toxic: Good move is good again!

Nuzzle / Glare: I value these two about the same, though Glare is the superior option. Good deterrent, makes you annoying to switch into, good options.

Defog/Rapid Spin/Court Change: Good move is good! Fogging on Arghonaut is very good and very pog. I think of the three, I prefer Defog. There is wholly too much Rapid Spin in CAP!

Haze: Haze is usually best on things that are supremely bulky or very fast. CAP 35 could be the former, but I am unconvinced that the typing affords it that many chances to effectively use the move.

Heal Bell: Heal Bell is just an ok move. It's best use is on stall, but Gliscor is on stall, making the move not even that good.

Soak: I think this move is fairly overblown. Soak is usually only used when a mon has few options to pick from. I think there's a use case, but not a strong one.

Strength Sap: Very good move is very good. Strength Sap can let you get away with lower physical bulk and could end up letting CAP 35 beat things it shouldn't. Unsure how I feel about it, but it's strong.

Will-o-Wisp: I don't think CAP 35 should have access to all the status, and I think Wisp's inconsistency means it should be at the bottom of the status pool.

50% Recovery: Good move is good again. Grants CAP 35 consistency and staying power and is, in my eyes, all but mandatory.

Parabolic Charge: I would like to equate Parabolic Charge to Draining Kiss, a move that has only ever seen use on sweepers. It is just too weak to justify without set up. Pass.

Electroweb: Bad move is bad, this thing does no damage and has a middling effect.

Thunder Cage: I kinda like Thunder Cage! Residual damage is epic for a wall. It is much worse than Magma Storm because it has an immunity to deal with but I could see the case for this being a defining move. This move gets increasingly more epic with Taunt.

Thunderclap: I don't think Thunderclap is all that threatening without big offensive potential behind it. CAP 35 could have that with Electromorphosis, but at that point, it is really not being a wall anymore is it?

Taunt: Is whatever. Taunt is usually not very good on slow things, and wihle CAP 35 isn't confirmed to be slow, I don't see it being fast enough to really use this.

Encore: See Taunt but replace Taunt with Encore.

Super Fang: I am admittedly less hype on this move than others. It's fine and could see use, I just don't think it's the make or break tool some think it is.

Cotton Guard/Cosmic Power/Amnesia: Hard pass on Cosmic Power and Amnesia, those moves only see use on sweeping sets and Unaware mons, respectively. Cotton Guard, though, could see use, but only when paired with Body Press. Up to y'all if you wanna make Electric Skarmory.

U-turn: To be honest, I just don't think it is that necessary. Give CAP 35 some tools to pressure Ground-types, and it becomes a much more interesting Pokemon without U-turn.

Whirlwind/Circle Throw/Dragon Tail: I'm not convinced Circle Throw or Dragon Tail are even that good without STAB due to immunities and their accuracy. Whirlwind/Roar, though, is more consistent and is perhaps a tool worth looking into.

Leech Seed: Leech Seed not only is a good form of recovery nowadays what with everything having massive HP stats but also lets your teammates switch in more easily. Good move is good, though you'd really need to watch the BSR abuse with this one.

Heart Swap: Eh. The situations where this move actually does something are not too common, which really begs the question of if it is ever worth a move slot. If it turns out to not be a "main move", then man would it feel just awful to lose to it randomly. I'm edging on putting this into Red because it could be completely annoying and very unviable at the same time. Quite the combo!

Healing Wish: Walls don't like to run Healing Wish, and when they do, it's on wack offense teams as a surprise factor. Next!

Spiky Shield/Burning Bulwark: I just don't see a compelling case for the special Protect moves. They don't really have that big of an impact, especially since I hope this Pokemon is not only relying on Leftovers for recovery!

Switcheroo/Trick: These moves, historically have been used on three sets: Choice item attackers (not CAP 35), Magic Guard Sticky Barb (not CAP 35), and Poison-type Black Sludge (not CAP 35). No thanks!

Wish: It's ok, I just prefer consistent 50% healing, even with the lesser PP count.

Dual Screens: Dual Screens are historically best on Fast Pokemon that can outpace Taunt. CAP 35 is unlikely to have that Speed. Some may point out Toxapex as an example of a defensive Light Screen user. Toxapex has Regenerator, it can get away with tanking a hit to set it up and still have your team get value. CAP 35 does not have Regenerator.

Magnet Rise: I thought about this a bit, and I just don't think it'd see use. Devoting an entire moveslot to this is a heavy ask, and if that comes with the penalty of dropping your move that pressures Gliscor, it will simply wait you out until the effect ends (this move only lasts 5 turns!)

Pain Split: I rate Pain Split at a similar level to Wish.

Chilling Water: Not even Toxapex runs this move. Useless.

Mystical Fire: I see more of a use case for Mystical Fire but really only as coverage, not for the SpA dropping effect.

Lunge: There is literally no way CAP 35 would ever use Lunge on a serious set. I would bet money on it.

Focus Punch: Simply not a utility move but also just not a move that is very good. Bad move is bad.

Future Sight: Future Sight does not see use without STAB. CAP 35 is not a Psychic type.

Psychic Noise: Interesting concept, but no STAB and an assumed lower offensive presence means that the progress this pretends to make vs. Gliscor and Equilibra is stupendously slow and definitely never worth a move slot.

Skill Swap / Gastro Acid: Funny options for Gliscor. They do literally nothing else. Pass.

And so this isn't just a reaction post, I would like to bring up discussion on Scald. Hits Ground-types, threatens a burn on incoming Gliscor, and is just a generally good move for what Discharge doesn't hit. Scald is probably the best move CAP 35 could ask for, and I am here for it!

 

[a fairy]

Scald could be useful, though I'm not sure I'm super in favor of providing strong, useful coverage to a wall like this. My gut instinct is that I'd rather our 'mon rely on Charge-boosted electric attacks while using utility moves to enhance its walling than rely on well-aligned coverage to function more offensively. I'm not against it, necessarily, but I think if we allow it that probably should be the extent of the reliable/notable coverage it should get. This doesn't need to be Regieleki when it comes to offensive movepool, but it probably also shouldn't be the average early gen Normal-type.

 

[sinnabyss]

Taunt + Thunder Cage could be interesting as a stallbreaker in the same vein as Heatran and Fini in past gens. Purify is a potential option to fuck with Gliscor but is p bad otherwise lol. Defog is an idea what with 35 resisting both of Gholdengos stabs, but the bad matchup into most hazard setters is quite annoying. Wisp sounds honestly pretty nice, since you get to deter Ground-types from switching in. Im personally against giving 35 Parabolic Charge, as it kinda removes the decision of either using a boosted Electric attack or using status / healing / etc.

 

[Explosion Badger]

What utility options come to mind as being good fits for CAP 35's build so far, and the contradiction its looking to achieve?

Wanna highlight Roar/Whirlwind as a very simple but useful option for 35 to have. Being able to deny setup sweeper's progress and deal chip damage to anything not wearing Heavy Duty Boots are both valuable traits for a wall to have. Along with this, Roar/Whirlwind have pretty good synergy with Electromorphosis, as a charged Discharge practically forces most mons to switch into a ground type teammate. Roar allows us to take advantage of this fact by forcing whatever ground type that comes in to leave immediately, meaning that both it and the mon that takes its place have to potentially eat hazard damage while also forcing the opponent right back into the original scenario they were in over and over again. A useful tool to keep in mind, especially if other tools such as Knock Off are considered, as being able to make the enemy team potentially even weaker to hazards makes the threat of Roar/Whirlwind that much scarier.

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

Focus Punch ... However, it does have ramifications for our Attack stat, and thus our other allowable physical coverage, in order to do its job properly.

I'm actually kind of interested to expand on the inherent contradiction between Physical Electric attacks, Electromorphosis, and our contradictory role as a wall...

On Physical Electric Moves

1. Double Shock, Aura Wheel are off the table as exclusive moves, so I won't waste any breath on them.
2. Bolt Strike and Fusion Bolt are just a bit too "drawbackless" and strong to be worth consideration
3. Spark, Thunder Fang, and Thunder Punch are just weak even with Electromorphosis.
4. Wild Charge and potentially Volt Tackle all hit ourselves very hard when boosted with Electromorphosis, which while contradicts our role immensely (ow, double recoil damage), could be a very interesting design space indeed.
5. Supercell Slam is kind of the opposite problem as Wild Charge/Tackle, where upon missing (or worse, encountering a ground switch in) we half our HP, a very very scary situation for a non-Regen pokemon to find themselves in. Still, 100 BP and 95% accuracy is pretty good.
6. Zing Zap is good (80 bp, 100% accuracy) but we can't abuse flinch unless we have a good speed tier.

While its' almost certainly the best idea to go for special distribution for more reliable options (as well as making volt switch do good damage), being able to abuse Attack for things like Knock or Focus Punch while dealing with yet another contradiction could be very fun.

speaking of physical, Beak Blast might be an interesting way of implementing Burns into our kit.

Beak Blast hits lots of fighting types very hard and burns on contact, punishing attempted knocks, u-turns, flip turns, etc. Furthermore, if we have enough bulk, we can get critical burns on pokemon like Zamazenta.

Flying coverage is also very interesting with electric--far more than adding something like BoltBeam.

 

[Amamama]

Ok I gotta rant here a bit.
Legendary Signatures should not be on the table for any process unless they are vital for the concept (Doom Desire Libra/Diamond Storm Raja).
Neither Thundercage nor Thunderclap fall in this category. For that reason I believe they should be banned from further discussion.
Similarly non Legend Signature moves should not be on the table unless they are vital for ensuring viability or being directly related to the concept (i.e. Dragon Hammer Miasmaw/parting Shot Kerfuffle).
For anyone that says Thunderclap isn't a legendary signature, it still doesn't fall in any of these categories.
Other moves suggested in the thread that fall in one of these are Heart Swap, Burning Bulwark, Topsy Turvy and Beak Blast.
Speaking of which.
Moves like Beak Blast, Focus Punch Future Sight or Lunge to me really seem like suggestions purely made for the uniqueness factor and do not in the slightest consider if they would ever fit on this Mon.
There's a whole PRC thread about recent CAPs being overtuned and or bloated.
Defining moves should be a discussion regarding the essentials for moves for a Mon and not a day in a luxury shopping center.

 

[Tunak Tunak Tun]

Personally not as much of a fan of Strength Sap, while it's obviously a good move, the applications are certainly annoying into the one mon we really want to check, Gholdengo. Being blanked by Ghold when we're in dire need of recovery seems very counterproductive, especially since we're "supposed" to check it currently.

Would very much prefer to go the 50% recovery route, it's a lot more straightforward as well as us being able to use Wish.

 

[Wulfanator]

Regarding strength of electric stab in conjunction with Electromorphosis, I don't think we need to preoccupy ourselves with identifying a power ceiling. I worry when we identify specific game state scenarios where a CAP would be at its strongest and restricting decisions off these theoretical positions. It's too early in the project to throw shackles on now.

I've got spdef Heatran on the mind and it's moveset structure is something we can pull inspiration from: stab/coverage/3rd/4th. Knowing the first 2 moves will inform what the 3rd and 4th moves will be (utility/recovery/etc). I think that would help narrow the conversation given the sheer quantity of moves already discussed.

On the topic of signature moves, I think we should be more open to considering them this time around. The design space still feels very open at the moment and having a mechanic we can use to better define this CAP's purpose always helps. I think back to how Fire Lash elevated Astrolotl's capabilities, and CAP 35 can benefit from this design philosophy. (I recognize that Fire Lash had increased distribution at the time of that decision, but the conversation here is reminding me of that process.)

 

[Gekokeso]

Shamelessly stealing this format from Dex, adding my opinions in its place. Green for High Approval, Yellow for being on the fence, Red for Disapproval

Knock Off: One of the most powerful tools a wall can have, it is especially useful because it can heavily annoy a lot of the best switch-ins for our electric attacks. Definitely should be considered for a move slot.

Toxic: Toxic is a good option on walls but im not sure that its the right fit for this Pokémon. Given that some of the best theoretical switch ins (Gliscor, Equilibra, Slowking) are immune to toxic it might not fit as well as some other utility options.

Nuzzle / Glare: Both are pretty strong and good options to threaten a significant portion of attackers that may attempt to switch into us. Can be a tadbit redundant given we might be spamming moves like Discharge but they can still be pretty useful as options.

Defog / Rapid Spin / Court Change: There's definitely an argument for including anti-hazard options, especially since we threaten the Defog Blocker of choice in Ghold.

Haze: Most of our targets either don't setup or have around it to take advantage of us while we haze, don't think we can abuse it well.

Heal Bell: Alright move. We might be able to fit it but it doesn't synergise that well with our toolkit.

Soak: Given how Electromorphosis works I think there's enough of an argument to include this move. Usual switch-ins to this Pokemon can be forced out as the loss of stab to hit this pokémon with + a new weakness to its electric attacks can force them out. Perhaps not as consistent as other options of utility but it is quite nice.

Strength Sap: This move can get pretty annoying pretty fast, the combo of sapping physical attackers as they try to switch in and then potentially living hits then hitting with electromorphosis could prove to be a little too strong. It also means this pokémon's healing won't work in front of Gholdengo, which is one the of the main reasons our typing was chosen.

Will-o-Wisp: Hits a large number of switch-ins and can cripple them into becoming positive matchups. Not too convinced if we should include it but it has a good argument for its inclusion.

50% Recovery: No reason why not to give it this, 35 necesitates ways to circumvent chip damage and recovery is the best way foward. Shame about pp nerfs.

Parabolic Charge: I think we would very much prefer to run normal STAB options since they deal more damage but this move could be admitedly very useful if we take the route of Defensive setup with Calm Mind or another option.

Thunderclap: We want to go on a more defensive route for a wall, have defensively oriented walls ever used Sucker Punch? I doubt it.

Taunt / Encore: Given that we are a wall I dont see us having a case for good speed in order to be using either of this moves.

Super Fang: I think I am a fan of this one. Takes significant chunks of health both from ground types and other offensive pokémon trying to switch in, which is especially good considering many of them lack recovery options. Compliments other options like Knock Off and coverage.

Cotton Guard/Cosmic Power/Amnesia: I can see the argument for them, defensive setup could technically fit this CAP's desire to stay in and tank hits to dish back powerful electric attacks but

U-turn: I would rather find different ways for 35 to find progress, especially given how its ability works, but it is certainly a usable option over Volt Switch.

Roar/Whirlwind/Circle Throw/Dragon Tail: Not a fan of the phazing moves that deal damage, they are inaccurate and don't help much vs the switchins to this pokémon. Roar and Whirlwidn on ther other hand are consistent and can help against threats like Darkrai that electromorphosis may not deal with in one hit.

Heart Swap: Shrimp never uses this move and I don't think it has used it since maybe gen 5, hard pass.

Healing Wish: Paralysing the opponent into a healing wish is the only reason why i think there is an argument for the inclusion of this move. Otherwise we as a wall most likely never going to think of using this move.

Switcheroo / Trick: We don't have an ability to take advantage of this, and one of our targets is Gholdengo, so dedicating a slot to be weaker against it seems bad, not a fan.

Wish: Given how much this pokémon will want to stay in, I don't think it will use this move a lot. The Volt Switch + Wish combination is still interesting however.

Dual Screens: I was gonna bold this red but thinking about it a Electrophorphosis user using screens to tank hits and activate Electromorphosis to scare removers away could in theory be a decent way to abuse the abilty. I can see and argument for this on.

Magnet Rise: One of the biggest reasons that I was against ground inmmunities during the ability stage is that they really don't help that much at beating the ground types of the tier. Gliscor can toxic you, Tusk can use its fighting stab, etc. Staying in on ground type pokémon accomplishes absolutely nothing and gives the opponent time to setup or remove hazards with many of them. Other options do the same without sacrificing a moveslot to a mostly useless move.

Pain Split: I doubt we will be able to use this move, especially since better recovery options exist andn

Chilling Water / Mystical Fire / Lunge: Lunge is a fake move used by fake mons. I kinda like the other two as coverage, especially Chilling Water since I find it to be a less egregious addition than Scald, even if its significantly worse.

Psychic Noise: Not STAB to abuse this on + using other coverage options might be better. Pass.

Skill Swap / Gastro Acid: Only there for Gliscor who can switch out anyways. Very bad choices.

Scald: It is indeed coverage, but im not a fan of it. SV limited scald distribution by a lot so to add a pokémon that truly doesn't need it seems unnessesarry to me, especially when other coverage can do the job as well.

How strong can we allow our Electric type STAB options to be in tandem with Electromorphosis and still achieve our goal of being a more defensive wall?

I don't think we should limit ourselves with our Electric type STAB options, Electromorphosis naturally requires high powered moves to function and being able to hit back as hard as it can will most likely be this pokémon's selling point among other options in the metagame. If it weren't for the fact that it is a legendary signature I would even vote for the inclusion of Thunder Cage into consideration due to its ability to support utility options like Toxic or Taunt, but unless tls state that they are willing to free the move I don't see the point in discussing it further. The only argument I could see for limiting our electric stab options would be if we were to balance the pokémon around having coverage in the like of Water or Ice moves, but other than that I think we shoudln't limit our electric stab options.

 

[Tunak Tunak Tun]

Gonna shoot my hat in the ring for two options, as well as a potential signature move.

First of all, I would like to suggest the combination of Iron Defense / Acid Armor + Body Press.
This gives a full gameplan to CAP 35, making it similar to Pokemon like Garganacl, Corviknight and Skarmory, in a Pokemon with Recovery, ID/BP as well as coverage / utility. This is a tried and true strategy, and fighting coverage comes target very specific switchins to us, such as Equilibra, Iron Treads, Colossoil and Ting-Lu, while obviousl also hitting Pokemon traditionally weak to fighting, like Kingambit.

This also defines some particular checks quite early, particularly Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, Dragapult, Clodsire, Sinistcha, Chuggalong and Slowking-Galar.


Now on the complete other end, an option I have particular interest in testing out in terms of signature moves is Jungle Healing.
We've noted an interest in Heal Bell due to us aiming to be checks to common status spreaders like Dragapult, Cresceidon and Snaelstrom, though it has some awkward anti-synergy with Gliscor as well as requiring two moveslots for both recovery and status removal. Jungle Healing is an option that allows us to leverage this, I believe we should be able to leverage the smaller HP recovery with support of Parabolic Charge or a higher HP value to compensate.

 

[Brambane]

If Scald is too much, which is very possible, Surf is the midground alternative. Probably a weaker option overall, but with Knock Off and Surf you can start to slowly make progress against Libra. It also does help cover Great Tusk. Most importantly, it continues our civic duty of making Smokomodo profoundly ass.

Scald is probably too safe a click most games. It makes CAP35 a Pokemon that can punish almost everything reasonable in the game except Garganancl and likely Gliscor between Scald and Discharge. I think Knock Off, while more generally useful, is more fair than Scald as far as status spam goes. I think we should really focus on paralysis as the main point of order here, I don't even like Will-O-Wisp that much.

 

[modularform]

First, I think either 50% recovery or Strength Sap is absolutely essential for us to succeed as a wall. In contrast to Pokemon like Heatran or Cresceidon, we lack resistances to lean on, and our ability neither heals us nor prevents damage, so unless we give CAP 35 bulk like Ting-Lu or Blissey, Leftovers, Leech Seed, etc. won't cut it. Parabolic Charge intrigues me here, but it is less reliable at healing us because Ground-types exist. Moreover, making it reliable healing necessarily means making CAP 35 hit really hard with any electric move, which kind of goes against our primary role as a wall. If you can reliably heal 40-50% with Parabolic Charge, you can probably reliably kill things with Thunderbolt, and I don't think we should be doing that.

Instead, I am a huge fan of Strength Sap because it simultaneously heals us and lets us do something to physical grounds like Ting-Lu, Great Tusk lacking Bulk Up, and Landorus-T that want to come in on us. The synergy with Electromorphosis is pretty epic as well: Bean Landorus-T as it comes in, tank EQ then heal back to full and eventually force it out with Normal STAB / burn / toxic or something, then smack something else with a Charge-boosted electric move. (Of course if Lando-T never comes in on us because of this interaction, the goal is also accomplished.)

I didn't see it discussed much, maybe because everyone is taking it for granted that we'll get it?, but Volt Switch FTW. A strong slow-pivot on CAP 35 creates a niche for us, as long as we have some method of making progress against the Grounds that block said pivoting. I like Flip Turn as a secondary pivoting option that is super-effective against Grounds while not being as powerful as something like Surf, Scald, or Ice Beam. Water move coverage, especially Scald, just seems too good against the Grounds, which should at least all check us, to me, though I don't think we should write Surf off completely (fuck Scald). I don't think we need BoltBeam at all, walls are meant to win with utility and chip, not strong offenses.

Two "other utility" options I am a fan of are Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp. Knock Off is simply one of the best moves in the game, and both it and Will-O-Wisp make guaranteed progress into Grounds. Will-O-Wisp is the only (non-Freeze) status that can touch Equilibria, which without Tera Blast bullshit or strong coverage (which would go against being a wall), hard-counters us and gets off Doom Desire / Pain Split while forcing us out, and all the physical grounds except Gliscor obviously hate burn. Drawing a weak move like U-Turn, one of our few resisted attacks, or another wall's attack will put us in a really great position with both these options. The opponent is forced to let their Ground get knocked or burnt, letting us win in the long-term with our recovery move, or we chunk something with nuclear Volt Switch and position a threat of our own. These specific moves fit into a reliable, cohesive game-plan with Electromorphosis, leading to sets like Volt / Flip / recovery or Strength Sap / Wisp or Knock.

One final option I am interested in, but which doesn't seem to work as well, is Thunder Cage; trapping is a unique niche, and as a wall we love to chip things. However, to me, it doesn't naturally lead to a cohesive gameplan like Knock and Wisp, as outlined above. Thunder Cage is a really neat move to me, and I don't want to write it off, though-- I am sure we could build around a specific target or targets we want to trap with it, that route just doesn't seem as obvious or natural to me.

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

For the folks who are scared of specific moves being "too strong," bear in mind that we've selected...

1. a mediocre typing
2. a wholly offensive ability that doesn't exactly help with our ability to wall (despite the fact that it rewards us for being a wall)
3. and we're selecting our move set now.

we really shouldn't be too conservative with our moveset, as we'll need to throw the rest of the power budget into our stats which could lead to CAP 35 being incredibly polarizing (or worse, outright unviable.)