• Snag some vintage SPL team logo merch over at our Teespring store before January 12th!

CAP 35 - Part 3 - Typing Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Gonna discuss two typings in this post that have gotten a lot of prior discord discussion.

Bug / Dark :lokix: is functionally a Bug type that has a decent match-up into Grounds, though not amazing, and a dark type that has a decent matchup into Ghosts/Psychics though not amazing. While the typing does not deliver it with the auto-win matchups that a tank might desire, walls have been shown to get by on resists + bulk + ability in a lot of cases. Equlibra and Blissey are both quite competent answers to Gholdengo despite both being neutral to one of its STABs. I'll list some mons that I think are feasible under the following criteria.

They should not have any move at or over 190 BP vs us (counting STAB and SE). Give bonus points for no move above 150 BP or hitting them with a SE stab. I am considering their current dex sets, rather than full movepools. This means some mons will be inaccurate. I am going from S to A-, and also counting kitsunoh and necturna (assuming rage fist)

Bonus Points:
:dragapult: (Hex) :arghonaut: :darkrai: :gliscor: :malaconda::slowking-galar: :deoxys-speed: :kingambit: :landorus-therian: :ting-lu::ogerpon-wellspring: :dragonite: :krilowatt: :samurott-hisui: :necturna: :kitsunoh:

Regular Points:
:dragapult: (Specs) :equilibra: :gholdengo: :great-tusk: :kyurem: :walking-wake: :raging-bolt: :zamazenta: (IDBP)

Now, this analysis is a bit flawed; despite not being able to hit us with a super high BP move we are almost definitely losing vs Kingambit unless we somehow construct a set that has either Wisp or Body Press, but its more meant to show matchups that should be feasible without a specific immunity or resist ability. Now onto the second part of this typing; Dark just has some really really good STAB moves for a wall. A lot of Dark-types have either Foul Play or Knock Off, and those are frankly just amazing moves to click as a wall. While Mandibuzz has shown you need to have a bit of force behind them to actually break some notable Dark-resists such as Gholdengo, they're both still great options to potentially have available to us.

In terms of our strong matchups, you'll note how there's a lot of Ground-types in either column, and those Ground-types are mons that are often involved in the hazard control game. Having a mon that can at the least be lead into these mons and force them to respect us is pretty nice, and is a play pattern that opens up a lot of routes for us to design around. I'd also argue that it leaves the design space relatively open to us. While we do need to hit a specific power level total, I'd argue the number of potentially positive matchups means we can access this through a lot of different routes.

Grass/Normal :sawsbuck: is one that I particularly like for us. Its something I'd argue is definitely contradictory for a wall thanks to a somewhat awkward resist profile that nonetheless gives us more than enough winning matchups. I'll repeat the analysis I did above, though to provide cliffnotes, we generally do well into Grass-types, Ground-types, and Ghost-types.

Bonus Points:
:dragapult: (hex) :gliscor: :cresceidon: :garganacl: :kingambit: :landorus-therian: :malaconda: :ogerpon-wellspring: :ting-lu::dragonite::primarina: :kitsunoh: :necturna:
:samurott-hisui:

Regular Points:
:dragapult: (specs) :equilibra: :gholdengo: :walking-wake::krilowatt: :raging-bolt:

This is frankly a far shorter list than the above, however there is one very notable advantage; you are not weak to Stealth Rock, and thus are likely to have more longevity. This list is also one that's very polarized, you have a lot of matchups where you arguably can wall stuff straight off of resists, but at the same time a lot of those matchups are ones where you're gonna struggle to actually damage them back assuming just STABs. Its an interesting dynamic, however one that we can easily address during movepool. I still like this one because I think there's a genuine lack of defensive grasses in the meta, especially ones that can switch into the Fairy/Water types.
 
Last edited:
Hiya. Here I am, got a suggestion for what I feel to be a Holder of Few, compared to how others have been categorizing their own submissions. I would love if Dragon was considered.

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?
Dragon, on its own, resists Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric. It is weak to Ice, Dragon, and Fairy. By nature of being a single type, it contains no 1/4th resistances or 4x weaknesses. I believe that this falls into the category Holder of Few, as while it does have weaknesses and resistances, it interacts with less than 1/3rd of the type chart and some of these are not particularly notable interactions (sorry, Grass and Ice).

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?
Dragon-types are primarily seen as majorly offensive creatures. Especially single-typed Dragons, Haxorus and Druddigon and Regidrago are not exactly known to be defensive powerhouses. Goodra, the one Dragon that tries to be, was not particularly successful, until defensive wunderkind type Steel got attached to it in Hisui. Even in notable multi-typed Dragons, most rely on "psuedo-legend" or "legend/mythical" stats to bulk up on top of a beneficial additional type. Garchomp appreciates a Ground typing, Dialga and Archaludon lean into Steel typings, Lati@s and Eternatus and Giratina all have high stats and a not-detrimental additional type.

Meanwhile, defensive Dragon-types are few and far in between, especially when raising what the bar of success is. It's hard to even find new examples without repeating previous names. Hydrapple has some level of success for the time being, but most other Dragon-types are primarily offensive 'mons with some defensive merit. Or, they're mostly unsuccessful, like Guzzlord or Dragalge.

I think that the default view of Dragon-types is as a 'mon with offensive prowess that relies on higher-than-average stats or good secondary types to brush off weaker hits before making progress via offense. I'd love to see what exploring Dragon as a defensive typing

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?
I'm honestly struggling to understand this question. I think what it's trying to ask is, why is this a good exploration of Holder of Few? Or, why is this a typing that contradicts with the idea of being a wall?

Walls benefit greatly from switching into hits that they then reduce the damage of by means of resistances. Dragon-types, however, rely mostly on inflated stats or strong abilities to stomach a hit before hitting strongly back. Dragon-types usually aren't caring much about walling, instead using the threat of damage or setup to advance progress. The few Dragon-type walls that exist often rely on legendary-level stats or lean into a secondary type to rely on damage reduction. When most Dragon-type 'mons are offensive powerhouses, the area of a Dragon-type designed for stomaching hits and stalling opponent progress is fairly undeveloped in OU.

A Dragon-type wall fills a niche of a defensive Pokemon that relies on things other than type chart advantage to wall. While most Dragon-types don't rely on the type chart to take hits, most Dragon-types don't intend to take hits. Most walls rely on the type chart when it comes to taking hits, but Dragon doesn't interact very strongly in the modern type chart, with a Fairy weakness being arguably its most notable interaction.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?
So. CAP did just make a Pixilate Extreme Speed 'mon and a Dragon-type that boosts its defenses via an omni-boost this generation. Those two 'mons probably make it harder to talk about a defensive Dragon-type, given that it would seem by default both are likely to have its number pretty consistently. Otherwise, I don't believe that a Dragon-type wall meaningfully clashes with other existing SV CAPs, even when looking back at prior generations. This feels different enough from Astrolotl as to not overlap much at all.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?
I'm no good at competitive 'mons, unfortunately, so I don't have a particularly good answer to this. Resisting the FWG core is maybe it's most notable resistance for a Holder of Few 'mon, which probably benefits bulky or stall-leaning teams by reducing the amount of predictions needed for 'mons with elemental coverage.
 
There is another typing I was thinking about, and that is everyone's least favorite mothra...

Bug/Fire

Bug/Fire is a typing that strangely has a pretty healthy number of resistances compared to weaknesses. 6 resistances to 3 weaknesses make this typing seem pretty good at first glance, but a few of those resistances (Grass, Ice, and Bug) are fairly rare, and its weaknesses to Water, Flying, and Rock are all very relevant. This typing is exceedingly weak to Knock Off, as it heavily relies on Heavy-Duty Boots, making it a bit more flimsy than its initial resistance profile makes it seem.

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?
This typing doesn't particularly fall into either of the categories, though I suppose it is more like "Holder of Many". It has a good number of resistances, and its weaknesses are very relevant and common.

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?
The main contradictory element of this typing is its quad weakness to Stealth Rock. This alters the typing's matchup into Pokemon that it should be very good into like Rillaboom and Kitsunoh. However, its relevant resistances (Fairy and Fighting chief among them) can help overcome Stealth Rock.

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?
Fighting and Fairy resistances are great qualities to have in order to blank Iron Valiant. This typing also helps as a Fire-type that has a positive matchup into Equilibra. The typing lets it play into Grass and Steel types like Rillaboom and Kingambit decently well as well. Gholdengo is another Pokemon that would loathe a typing like this in the metagame.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?
The big competition for this type is Moltres. However, this typing lacks a weakness to Electric, making it more difficult for Pokemon like Iron Valiant and Gholdengo to break through it with coverage. In exchange, it trades a Ground immunity for a neutrality. In a lot of other respects, the typing behaves pretty similarly to Moltres's Fire/Flying, so some differentiation in the other stages would be needed.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?
Clefable and Arghonaut are the clear best partners for their ability to absorb Knock Off. In return, this typing can handle Gholdengo and Iron Valiant for the two, respectively. Darkrai and Roaring Moon appreciate the Fighting and Fairy resistances the typing provides.
 
Hiya I have ANOTHER Normal typing :)

Normal/Fire
I feel like the main selling point of this typing is its weaknesses. Its weaknesses are incredibly relevant: Water, Ground, Fighting, and (Stealth) Rock. However, this typing has a solid group of resistances in Fairy, Bug (U-Turn), Steel, Ghost, Fire, Ice, and Grass that allow it to shine.

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?

I see this typing as a Holder of Many typing contradiction, although four weaknesses may not seem like a lot, the specific types that it does struggle to come in on exaggerates said weaknesses.

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?

The types that Fire/Normal is weak to are very prevalent in the meta, even though it’s only 4. From Zamazenta to Equilibra to Waterpon to Garganacl and more, the amount of threats that appear to threaten this typing based on typing alone is numerous.

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?

One aspect of this typing is while it has a lot of prevalent weaknesses that make it seem deterring for a wall, it does have a good amount of solid resistances. Fairy and Fire are amazing typings in the CAP metagame, the ability to deter Hemogoblin is something that will be very valuable to fit on a team. Another prevalent typing duo it resists is Steel and Ghost. Gholdengo and Kitsunoh are both incredible progress makers, like Hemogoblin, so being able to deter both is incredibly advantageous. Therefore, these incredibly negative weaknesses are able to be overcome by its solid resist profile.

Other advantageous matchups are Sun, between Malaconda and other Sun abusers (other than Walking Wake really) allow it to have a positive matchup into that archetype that is especially beneficial in the CAP metagame. Rillaboom and Necturna are Grass-types that will have to consider CAP35 if going up against it.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?

There are several offensive juggernauts that do clash with CAP35 if using Fire/Normal. Great Tusk is very good at making progress which is what Fire/Normal does try to stop for the opposing team. Another Pokemon it clashes with is Hemogoblin. If Fire/Normal’s goal is to deter progress, it would make a lot of since to partner it with a common progress maker like Hemogoblin; however, stacking those Water and especially Ground weaknesses would be pretty detrimental to a team.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?

I feel like the extremely common Dragon- and Dark-types like Dragapult, Darkrai, and Kyurem all appreciate it’s ability to handle Fairy-types. Fire-types are also common so Rillaboom and Kingambit appreciate it. Pokemon scared of U-Turn like Malaconda, Waterpon, and Darkrai again appreciate it switching in. Dark- and Grass-types are definitely the biggest benefactors of the Fire-typing. Psychic-types appreciate the help of the Normal-typing to let it defer not only Gholdengo and Kitsunoh but also Dragapult.
 
Bug just Bug is a typing that resists Fighting and Ground, which is pretty cool. It has three weaknesses, two of which very common, and three resistances, two of which very common. The neutralities help it cover common movesets, such as neutral to Steel helping with Libra and neutral to Dark and Ice helping with Zamazenta and Great Tusk. It also is known for being snug inside of a rug. I think these are good traits.
 
Gonna make a post throwing support for a couple of typings.

Fire / Normal
Being completely frank I don't like a lot of the fire typing proposals since they don't see to be taking advantage of the potential of the concept. Its true that Fire isn't like that most common typing in defensive pokémon but it is also one that has proven many time to be perfectly serviceable. Heatran, Moltres, and Mollux have proven that on the right situations a fire typing can work perfectly well regardless of its overblown rocks weakness. However, I do think Fire Normal has the nost merit out of them. Fire Normal provides a very unique niche in a ghost inmunity that can also threaten a lot of the most common ghost types in meta while also either threatning them back, resisting their stabs or even being immune to burns. It has a lot of defensive merits that we get the opportunity to explore and a lot of interesting shortcomings that can lead to a very interesting product.

Flying / Normal
Throwing support for another normal typing and one that I think is very overlooked. Normal Flying is one of the best examples of a typing that maximises neutralities. With only the standard flying weaknesses in exchange for crucial immunities to the likes of Ghost and Ground, Flying Normal provides the normal typing with the most interesting use of the few weaknesses and a resistances archetype, allowing us as bigger power budget while still being a perfectly workable type to work with. One of the most appealing features of this typing to me is specifically avoiding a weakness to Ghost Fighting coverage, meaning that it is able to slot a ghost immunity without stacking fighting weaknesses on a team, as well as doing so without adding a dangerous weakness to types like poison like fairy does. Besides that, it shares the standard advantages of flying types such as a ground and spike immunity and ability to threaten the likes of Tusk, Arghonaut and Zamazenta.

Dark / Electric
There's a couple of Dark typings that have been mentioned and out of all of them I find Dark / Electric to be the most interesting. Dark Electric is part of those typings that would be better on an offensive pokémon but ends up in a defensive mon, it has some very clear strengths in a ghost resist that also acts as a steel resist, which immediately gives it a niche on paper to the likes of Kingambit, Gholdengo and Kitsunoh. It also has electric type resitances, giving it a niche against the likes of Venomicon, Corviknight and Samurott-Hisui. It has a couple of weaknesses such as inviting a lot of fighting types in or fighting coverage of the likes of Ghold and Venomicon but they are weaknesses that look fun to explore and address.

Don't have any other typings that I feel strongly about, so im just going to recommend another decent options that caught my eye such as Bug / Dark, Normal / Electric, Psychic / Fighting and Ice / Flying.

Edit: Looking at new arguments for Ice / Flying convinces me this typing might be more fun to work with.
 
Last edited:
Enough time has passed. Support post incoming!
(also this is totally not me posting so I can show off my new Smogon avi; shut up and lemme prove it!)

I honestly really like Normal/Fire, especially over the vast majority of other Normal subs. The main question you'd have to ask with Normal is why that when Dark-types answer bulky Ghosts better through smashing them in the face. Enter Fire, which takes care of the big ones in Gholdengo, Kitsunoh and Necturna. The burn immunity and Flamethrower resistance also help a ton vs. Dragapult, but we'd have to see if Pult switches gears and starts maining Surf in response, assuming this makes it through to the end.

Speaking of Dark-types, Bug/Dark is another typing that slaps, here. Having both a Ground resist and a Ghost resist is a genuinely solid selling point for it. Being resistant to Dark but weak to Rock is weird, but as I said either, I don't personally consider a Rocks weakness worth concerning about in particular. And even on the off-chance I'm wrong, it's a simple enough fix to make.

Finally, I wanna give a very special shoutout to Rock/Flying. The Steel weakness can't be helped, but throwing away the Fighting weakness and transforming the Ground one into an immunity would make wonders for leaning hard into the Sandstorm route to bolster Special Defense. I'm also certain Viol mentioned something about Magic Bounce in the main post itself; either one of those angles would be cool to see from CAP35.

Honorable mentions go to Normal/Flying, cause sure, let's make Staraptor great again, and pure Bug, which I'm surprised didn't get a dedicated submission. (Sorry Brambane; saying an entire 3 lines about it doesn't count)

EDIT: Oh(!), I'll throw in an honorable mention for Electric/Dark too. Completely shuts down Kingambit if it's light enough to make Low Kick hit for like, 20 Base Power :]
 
Last edited:
I said I'd post some typings I like so whatever

Dark: This is my favorite monotype option. Dark and Ghost resists are hugely helpful, but almost everything you're switching into can hit you pretty hard with a secondary STAB or can tech into super effective coverage. I actually like that vibe a lot (as I've posted about previously) because it makes the typing feel more dynamic. Really useful but targeted resists paired with some significant vulnerabilities that your teammates can help cover, or that we can mitigate via our build. You need really solid stats to make this typing work, but that's true for a lot of these.

Electric / Dark: Sick typing, and more potent than mono-dark in a vacuum. This gains a number of positive matchups and is forcing mons out way more often. A Scream Tail build with this typing would go hard.

Grass / Normal: Biased cuz the Smoliv line is fucking incredible but this is my favorite normal option. Its matchups into meta ghosts are not as clean as something like Fire/Normal, but it can still pivot into most of them, and you still have the utility Grass brings vs. shit like Wogerpon and grounds. I think carving out a unique niche would be surprisingly easy with this typing.

Bug / Ghost: I just think it's neat
 
Last edited:
Support post because I want to rant about typings I like lol

Normal / Flying: This is a really, REALLY solid typing. Two immunities on a wall, particularly such key immunities as Ghost and Ground, are amazing. Being rocks weak is annoying, but not unmanageable, and I do think the fact that Normal/Flying has never been used as a defensive typing before (for the most part) makes this a very appealing option. Possibly too appealing. It's arguable that this typing isn't really contradictory given its palette of effectiveness, which IMO is the only detracting factor from this typing. Very interesting and very potent.

Dragon: I've always thought of Dragon as a very defensive typing, but it's also pretty clear that mono-Dragon isn't really used as such. Being Fairy and Dragon weak as a wall is pretty rough, though, so I do think this has some potential as a contradictory typing. It's simple and it's fun. Not much else to say here.

Electric / Dark and Bug / Dark also get honorable mentions. Very cool typings, but I don't have a lot to say on them that hasn't already been said.
 
Hello,
I have two typing ideas for this CAP, please bare with me this is my first time contributing.
A question, in this gen if we make a good pokemon with odd defensive typing what stops the terra? Anyway..

Bug/Normal
There’s a few normal pokemon typing combinations being suggested so here is another! There are only a couple bug and normal Pokémon in CAP and normal/bug is currently an unused typing.

You lose your weakness to fighting and gain some to flying,fire and rock.
This typing resists grass and ground. An has immunity to ghost.

Rock weakness isn’t ideal and I think bug is an interesting juxtaposition for a wall.

Electric/Bug
Really interesting defensively, only weak to fire and electric. Neither of these types show an image of wall or tank and are often speedy or technical rather than tanky. The main exceptions to both usually have a steel or water type addition.

I also really like Fire/Dark it is also really interesting!
 
Last edited:
I'd like to throw in my support for some typing that includes Psychic .

In my opinion, it's one of the few typings that *really* fits well the Contradictory Typing for a wall.
Why? Simply because it comes with zero immunities. Not even something like a burn immunity that Fire has, for instance.

It also has few resistances, and has a STAB that is super effective against two of the best walls in the tier: Arghonaut and Venomicon.

I think with the rest of its kit, there's definitely alot of space for different creativity, so that it deal with a U-turn weakness fine, and can also make progress vs something like Equilibra.
And we can make it substantially different and more useful than something like Reuniclus.
 
I would like to submit Electric/Fairy

This type combination fits into a holder of many in that it has many resistances and immunities. While it only has two weaknesses, a ground weakness for a wall is particularly annoying and the electric typing as a whole is not a particularly useful typing for a wall, and especially so in a metagame that includes a ubiquitous ground/fighting type. In this situation it helps with fairy's steel weakness but trades it for a much more punishing ground weakness, while not helping with the poison weakness. This notably adds a heavy weakness to some pokemon that are typically annoying for walls to deal with, like Gliscor. However it does lean heavily into the strong strengths of Fairy as a defensive typing, adding in resistances to flying, electric, and paralysis. In my mind this is a "contradictory" typing in that the wall would almost definitely prefer to be pure fairy type instead of fairy electric. Most electric types are offensive and the majority of electric moves reflect this. Additionally electric is a type with only three resistances, and turning one of them into a neutrality is definitely not the best synergy. It also blanks pretty hard into Equilibra which sounds rough but I believe it can work
1727201570865.png


In terms of niche, this pokemon would hold a spot similar to many defensive fairy types, with some potential differences. The flying resistance can allow for checking of sweepers like Hawlucha that do not pack ground moves, and notably also checks Cawmodore quite well despite the neutrality to steel. This pokemon would also be immune to Paralysis, allowing it to check balances that like to paralyze walls as a way to break through given some lucky turns.

For teams to choose this pokemon they will likely want a sturdy ground check. Notably this pokemon will not fully check strong physical dragons that often carry earthquake as coverage (besides balloon) such as Dragonite or Roaring Moon. It could be a great pivot partner with its numerous resistances, notably to u-turn, and ability to bait ground type moves which can be an easy switch in for a flying or levitating pokemon. Finally it can partner well with pokemon that are vulnerable to fighting type moves like Body Press and Close Combat.

Just to expand a tiny bit I think this fits the fatal flaw concept in that while the typing doesn't seem necessarily good, it ends up working to create a unique niche that isn't currently filled by a lot of other pokemon. In comparison to Fairy Steel this typing sheds a fire weakness, keeps its fighting resistance, but doesn't bring in the myriad of defensive resistances that steel is useful for. Electric is not a popular defensive typing (except for zapdos) simply because it lacks resistances, so in that way it kind of fits with the holder of few approach. If I think about it its kind of self-contradictory in that you have the holder of many (fairy) and holder of few (electric) in the same pokemon. Paralysis immunity is really quite fun and something that doesn't really exist outside of gliscor. Even though body slam isn't that prevalent there is still stun spore in addition to thunder wave and of course static that is able to spread paralysis to ground types especially in notable cases like static knock or rapid spin.

(also hello cap always liked this section but never posted)
 
Last edited:
I've been debating off and on about submitting this type, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it as a far more "out there" approach.

Dark/Psychic as a Holder of Few (or rather, a Holder of None)

1727203766085.png


This is uh, not a good typing. At first, I was gonna write it off like Bug/Ice or similarly awful typings, but I think if built with two considerations in mind a pokemon with this typing might have a significant niche.

First off, a pokemon with a "almost all neutral interactions" would need similar bulkiness to Blissey, which would be very interesting to design in a way that isn't either super weak (ala Avalugg) or super polarizing (ala pre gen 8 Chansey). This "mostly neutral" design would actually increase the amount of team cores it could interact in dependent on movepool/ability/stat design later down the line.

Secondly, having a pokemon that heavily incentivizes the opposing team into clicking U-Turn is actually not a downside. With pokemon such as Rocky Helm Skarm, Argonaut, or even just polarizing Bug resistant pokemon, we can force our opponents to either pivot at CAP 35s whim, or to avoid pivoting to prevent Chip/hazards. Since we're Dark/Psychic, we can use other tools such as Teleport, Knock Off, Taunt, Trick, etc, to make progress regardless of team composition.
What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?
Not only does this typing not resist *anything* but one of our main weaknesses only really exists in a vacuum, since we'll only care about our 4x Bug Weakness either to bait out U-turn for potential teammates (aformentioned RHelm Skarm as a great example), or the very rare First Impression (which we might even consider running protect to bait out).
What niche does it fill?
This is going to depend obviously on how generously we slate ability/stats/movepool but generally some sort of blanket utility oriented wall similar to Blissey would be the best niche I'd see. Baiting out U-turn for our teammates leads to another niche--a team oriented one.
Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?
As far as I'm aware this typing and idea doesn't contradict any CAP period. The closest I can consider would be Malaconda, but that's pretty explicitly a sun sutter at this point.
The last thing I think I'm going to say that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned relates specifically to having a U-turn weakness. I think having a U-turn weakness as a wall, which inherently folds momentum, is a pretty dangerous situation to have when the idea behind our lack of a standout weakness profile is to tank neutral hits more reliably.
The whole idea behind this typing would be to influence opposing pokemon into pivoting when they ought not to in an attempt to "break" CAP 35 using U-turn (the most commonly slotted Bug-type move).




I believe it to be imperative to sketch out possible cores
CAP 35 (dark/psychic) / Skarmory (or Corviknight) would be the primary Core I could see working, though CAP 35 / Gholdengo and CAP 35 / Kitsunoh would all be at the very least usable. CAP 35 + Venomicon would be an amazing core as well, with Venomicon instantly getting a Stamina proc from the soaked U-turn that does basically 0 chip.
 
Having caught up on all the posts, I'd like to give my thoughts on all of the typings that have been submitted so far. I classify the typings into one of four categories: Good (pro-concept, I see a path towards viability, non-railroading), Meh (some combination of questionable concept application, viability, or limited scope. Some of these also may just conflict too much with ones I think are in the Good category), Bad (reserved for typings I think are just not viable choices), and Anti-Concept (reserved for typings I think are, flatly, too good to choose).

Let's start with the Good!

I like a Bug typing that can take Knock Off! This typing, more than any of the other Bug submissions, has the best chance to actually make use of its Ground-type resistance in the face of Pokemon like Great Tusk. This typing is also a good showcase for a trend I noticed in the typings I liked: generically bad type + generically good type = usually an interesting combination.
Another trend amongst typings I think are interesting to work with here are ones that have a singular 4x weakness ala Ferrothorn or Scizor. That one big weakness is a great balancing point to work with. Normal/Steel has a cool resistance profile but some noticeable hampering factors.
I can see this sort of typing being very Reuniclus-ish in its implementation and succeeding largely due to its Dark neutrality. This is a typing normally associated with offense, but I think its pretty neutral defensive spread lets it get away with just enough to be worth it.
CAP starter bird!!! JK. I think this typing has a lot of defensive potential in general just because Flying is so universally good. Unlike the best Flying-types historically, Normal doesn't really do a whole lot to make the typing better, however. It's probably my favorite of the Normal typings.
This typing took a bit of time to grow on me, but I do think it is very interesting to work with. Malaconda didn't just rise above Torkoal and Jumbao because it has Parting Shot; its typing is also just a bit good in the SV metagame and poses interesting questions about meta interaction.
To be clear, I think Electric is a genuinely good defensive typing on its own, so I don't mind it getting paired with Normal to "nerf" it a bit here. Normal and Electric and fairly similar in their general neutral interactions with other types, and I think this pairing has a ton of room to work with.
I submitted this typing, but I have no shame in saying I think it is one of the best choices. Fighting types aren't usually defensive, and when they are, it is because of other qualities besides their typing. This would be an interesting exercise in how competition can shape a process.
Another one I submitted. I like this a bit less than Fighting/Fire because it competes super directly with Moltres, but I do like what it provides. I don't think having a Stealth Rock weakness is that big of a deal, but there is a big difference between taking 50% and 25% that I think is a great balancing factor.
SV needs more defensive Grass-types!!! Seriously, Amoonguss isn't even good... Grass/Normal does cool things in cool ways, and unlike a lot of Grass combinations, it doesn't have too many weaknesses that would prevent it from getting the job done.
I didn't like this typing at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I think it is an interesting space. Electric-types love having some counterplay to Ground-types, and a neutrality makes for a good design space for a wall to inhabit.
Similar to Psychic/Fighting, I think Psychic has the ability to just be very stat bally very effectively whilst staying on concept.

Onto the ones I think are sort of Meh. To be clear, I wouldn't mind any of these typings getting through particularly, I just am not too enthused about them in general.

My main gripe with this typing is that I'm not sure if it is actually pro-concept. A viable Normal/Fairy would be super swag in terms of anti-meta-ness, I can tell you that much, so much so that I think it might be too obviously good in SV, but Normal is kinda... middling for a Fairy-type at face value.
Rock/Flying is one I've seen hyped up a lot, and honestly, I just don't really get it. I don't think the weird resistance profile makes up for all the weaknesses.
Electric/Dark is another typing that I think teeters on the edge of being anti-concept just for being kinda good. That said, Electric and Dark don't really interact in the ways that make Dark good, so I'm fine with it.
I think the path behind pure Dark is kinda limiting in that you want to be The Ghostbuster. While I would love to make Dan Aykroyd, the Pokemon, it's just not particularly interesting to me.
I would have put this in the Good category but... two very relevant quad weaknesses holds it back for me. It looks tough to make work, though there's probably some ways to get it done.
This is functionaly similar to Rock/Ground. Tough to get right, tougher for me to envision.
This typing has merit simply because the resistance profile is very on-meta. That said, this particular 4x weakness is very crippling for what the typing wants to do.
This is another typing I think teeters a little too close to being too good for me to like it. It's a good typing that's been on bad mons like Normal/Fairy.
Another one that I think may be a little too generically good. The resistances are relevant while the weaknesses are common but not that common. I wouldn't mind this one that much at all though.
I honestly just prefer the other Fire typings. Nothing against this typing though, it's fine enough.
Bug is... weird. It has relevant resistances, but its weaknesses are pretty difficult to overcome. I'm fine with it, but it isn't my first Bug choice by a mile.
I actually do like Grass/Psychic... I just like Grass/Dark a bit more. They both play pretty similarly.
This typing is similar in effect to Psychic and Fighting/Psychic, but I like the latter two more and this one does teeter a bit too close to being just flat out bad for my comfort.
I flip-flop on this typing a lot. I think there's good merit to its resistance profile, but man, it really sucks to take away Bug's resistance to Fighting.

Following up with the Bad typings I think are just not good enough to see use on a defensive Pokemon. These are all typings I think should not be chosen purely because I do not see great paths (if any) to success.

Holy weaknesses batman! The double Knock Off weakness is a hard selling point, but one I think you can get around. However, Bug just being weak to all the things doesn't make up for it enough like a Pokemon like Skeledirge's typing does. Maybe if you gave it Wonder Guard...
We've seen stat ball Ice-types. We've seen utility maven Ice-types. None quite ever make the cut in CAP. Ice/Fighting just has so many weaknesses, and I don't think the resistance profile makes up for it much. I don't think Ice by itself is irretrievably bad, but pairing it with Fighting doesn't do it many favors. People have talked about Ice/Water and Ice/Flying on Discord, and I think those have merit, but no one has subbed them yet! So, no Ice-types for me so far.
Speaking of irretrievably bad, this is a typing that simply does not work as a defensive option. If you want to balance around a 4x Stealth Rock weakness, I much prefer Bug/Fire.
Bug/Normal is all the bad parts of Bug/Dark and Normal/Flying without the good parts that Dark and Flying provide. Hard pass. It's also a Normal typing that is weak to Stealth Rock... without the huge bonuses the Flying provides.

And finally, the Anti-Concept typings that I think are just a little too good to consider here!

Fire is a good defensive typing, I don't think there's much doubt about that. It may not have been considered as such before the advent of boots, but I think it is telling that Fire is one of the types people have been pairing with "bad" types like Normal and Bug to make a pro-concept typing.
Electric is a decent defensive typing. Fairy is a great defensive typing (and one of the best mono-typings in the game). The combination of the two is, predictably, very good. Only two weaknesses (Poison, Ground) compared to a whopping six resistances/immunities (including prominent typings like Dark, Fighting, and Dragon) just cannot be described as counterintuitive.
 
Last edited:
Okay so I know I posted before here is another crazier suggestion than my other two;

Ice/Poison
1727214886758.png


You Resist as much as you're weak too - some interesting resistances in Poison/Fairy, ice doesn't offer anything apart from resistance to itself but you can hit a few things for weakness. In the snow it's stats would be buffed to potentially take some of the physical weaknesses in rock/ground (who you can hit super effective with ice) and steel.

Probably a bit too weak but I think it continues the trend of Ice types that should be offensive being bulky and is very different.
 
Coming in to provide it as an option since it hasn't yet been subbed.
Ice/Flying which would be Holder of Few.

Ice/flying is like every other ice type to be considered for the role of a contradictory typing, which is to say, poor defensively with its dirth of resists and weaknesses to common types, a pain point for ice/flying being its quad rocks weakness meaning it is forced to run boots no matter what. Ice/Flying has previously only been seen on horrendously bad pokemon, Articuno and Delibird, who really don't do anything to provide for the typing in any meaningful way, besides maybe Articuno in the lower tiers thanks to its decent stats.

This typing's merit and niche comes in on challenging most every hazard setter, discounting Garganacl and Glimmora. Since spikers this gen have been largely ground types with mons such as Gliscor, Ting-Lu, and Clodsire, Ice/flying has a good matchup into all of these, including mons like Arghonaut, and Venomicon. The part flying here also gives a more positive matchup into grasses by resisting their hits, making for a decent check to Rillaboom, Meowscarada, and Ogerpon.

This typing would be fairly unique in the pantheon of CAP since the only ice types to hit competitive success have been pretty much purely offensive beasts, ala Kyurem and Weavile, and being able to stuff hazard setters and stick around is pretty good in the eternal hazard wars.

Another aspect of Ice/Flying is its positive synergy with Galarian Slowking thanks to Chilly Reception. This is a sticking point for all ice types, but here it's very potent thanks to ice/flying's immunity to ground, making a great defensive pair with Glowking. As for its other partners, it appreciates Cresceidon as a defensive partner to spread paralysis and stuff fire types, and Ground types like Ting-Lu to take any stray rock or electric type attack, and provide it hazards of its own.
 
Gonna make a post fighting for a typing that I feel hasn't been getting the fair shake it deserves:

Rock/Flying

2x: Rock, Steel, Water, Electric, Ice

0.5x: Normal, Flying, Poison, Bug, Fire

0x: Ground


Obviously, a typing with 5 weakness and 5 resistances (plus one immunity) falls into the Holder of Many contradiction. Rock/Flying is contradictory as a wall typing mostly thanks to Rock's offensive leaning. With five weaknesses, niche/subpar resistances and and more types weak to it than resistant, Rock has always been paired with Ice in "types that Gamefreak really wants you to think are more defensive than they are." Meanwhile, Flying is a phenomenal type both offensively and defensively, but thanks to Rocks influence in the pairing, its defensive qualities (namely its grass and fighting resistances) are muted, causing it's offensive properties to become much more obvious. And of course, the specific weaknesses given also tend to not match up with common walls, with Water, Ice, Electric and Steel all being fairly common offensive types that the usual meta walls often resist, or at the very least aren't weak to.

With that however, comes the main niche of this typing in my eyes: Rock/Flying's specific set of resistances allow it to check certain mons that other meta mons can't, while said mons cover for Rock/Flying's weaknesses. Iron Moth is the most notable of these examples, as its typing hits much of the metagame for at least neutral, while its coverage options can hit what remains for super effective damage, especially if it tera's to ground. Rock/Flying, however, denies almost everything the moth wants to do, resisting both of its STAB's while being either neutral or immune to any of the coverage Iron Moth wants to have, a combination which no currently existing mon in the meta can say they do. Iron Moth isn't the only mon that dislikes Rock/Flying's resistances either. Common offensive mons like Dragonite and Hemogoblin aren't particularly big fans of the typing, especially if we have the bulk that a wall should have, and mons such as Mollux, Landorus-T and Heatran aren't a big fan of them either. What I feel is most important to recognize, though, is how Rock/Flying's weaknesses are, like I said before, types that common mons in the metagame already take care of. Water types like Cresceidon, Ogerpon Wellspring and Arghonaut all deal with the typings weakness to water, as well as with other types that threaten it like Ice and Steel. In return, Rock/Flying deals with many of the typings that cause these Pokemon trouble, such as Poison and Flying. It isn't just these mons either. Mons such as Great Tusk and Ting-Lu stop electric type attacks for it, while Rock/Flying both helps to resist and threaten the flying types that these two dislike, such as Venomicon and Moltres. While the typing does have many weaknesses, those weaknesses also allow it to form interesting defensive pairings with other strong Pokemon in the meta, which is ultimately why I feel it should be considered for this concept.
 
I'm loving reading all the suggestions so far. Just wanted to pop in and throw my support behind my current top three four and a half suggestions! In no particular order...

A. Ice/Fighting :Crabominable:

I'm admittedly partial to this typing both because Ice is so often thought as single worst defensive typing in the game and one of the single rarest types for CAP. That's not to say this typing doesn't have some merit to beyond its arbitrary appeal. The introduction of snow's fifty-percent Defense boost to Ice-types should provide an outside means for CAP35 to bolster it's defensive profile beyond stats and ability. Combined with the new pivoting move, Chilly Reception, CAP35 may easily find a home in the metagame as a partner to Glowking. But the real strength of this typing is it's potential offensive pressure. There are 97 Pokemon ranked for viability in CAP. Combined, Ice and Fighting STABs hit an astounding 50 for super effective damage and 86 for neutral damage. With Freeze-Dry, those numbers shoot up to 65 and 92, respectively. There is even STAB Body Press to leverage it's defense capability offensively. Ideally, Ice/Fighting will allow CAP35 to take hits and hit back harder and still have room for utility.

B. Electric/Normal :Heliolisk: & Electric/Dark :Morpeko:


I'm pairing these two suggestions together because they ultimately fulfill the same niche, namely an answer to the two Ghost-types that plague the meta -- Dragapult and Gholdengo -- and, more specifically, their sets that utilize Thunder Wave as a disruption. This is especially true for the latter threat, as both typings either resist or are immune to both of Gholdengo's STABs. Electric as a type is almost exclusively used for its offensive potential but possesses a defensively potent one weakness to three resists. Normal better leans into the role of a Ghost-type check -- offering a Ghost-type immunity -- while Dark expands the defensive profile to include a Knock Off resist and Psychic-type immunity. Both types also offer some amount of STAB utility.
I should note that another suggestion, Fire/Dark, attempts to fill a similar niche, though one more inclined to Dragapult's Will-o-Wisp sets. While I like the submission for much the same reasons, I do think the typing veers too close to anti-concept for my liking given its defensive strengths.

C. Bug/Dark :Lokix:


Not much to say here that hasn't been said before. Like the above pair, this is primarily a Ghost-type resist, but with the added benefit of a resist against the all too common Ground-type and Knock Off. While that may be the extent of it's defensive potential, those three points combined offer an intriguing defensive profile. Simultaneously, Bug and Dark offer STAB on some of the best utility moves in the game in U-turn and Knock Off, allowing CAP35 some means of always keeping momentum for its side.

D. Grass/Psychic :Exeggutor:


Perhaps the best example of the 'Holder of Many' archetype with a combined 13 weaknesses and resistances, this typing capitalizes on its important resists to Water, Fighting and Ground. There is a cost, however; it suffers from weaknesses to common coverage move types like Bug (U-turn), Dark (Knock Off), or Ice (Ice Beam and Ice Spinner). This is a typing that for better or worse splits the meta in half, with that line sometimes running directly through individual Pokemon. Separately, Grass and Psychic have both had some middling success as defensive options and both possess useful utility.
 
What's more contradictory than an Ice type being bulky? I believe a type like Ice/Steel could make for a very interesting typing for a wall. The type combo grants resistances to a plethora of types, most notably U-turn, Dragon, Fairy and Ice.

Obviously, this type also has three weaknesses, two of which are extremely debilitating 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Fire. While this would hinder its ability to be a wall, abilities like Flash Fire or Levitate could remedy one of these weaknesses. An immunity-granting ability, especially Levitate, would make it a Holder of Many.

Additionally, being an Ice type, this typing would grant CAP35 access to a 50% Defence boost in Snow, which, if combined with being naturally specially bulky, could be a very effective wall unlike any other in the game.

On the offensive side, Ice/Steel is an alright STAB combo. If given access to an Electric or Ground move, there would be almost no unresisted type combination.

This typing particularily synergizes with Slowking-G. Slowking-G is able to eat up Fighting type moves, and is also able to pivot into CAP35 with Chilly Reception, setting up Snow for it as well, though they do share a weakness to Ground.
 
Not just an equal amount of weaknesses and resists, but some pretty key ones in there. Big resists to ice and fairy, two key types for mono-attackers, and a resistance to u-turn and other easy-to-read stab moves in grass and poison (or even anti-fairy coverage in the latter).
Despite that, it comes with some weaknesses that are really hard to ignore like rock, ground, and fire.

This is a typing that would require some really advanced play to make work, but would be fantastic if you're able to play intelligently. There's a ton of room to work with here. I'm impressed, and hopeful.
 
I am just talk about some interesting typings to me here, as there has been some pretty well-thought propositions:

Great
Both typings scream offense, so making a wall out of this is a bit contradictory by itself. The main defensive perks are being a Fighting-type with no Fairy weakness and Fire-type neutral to SR. Fire has always had defensive merits, undermined by SR so having that is good. I think it matches decently into the meta if we lean onto these strengths: strong STABs to avoid becoming set-up fodder (with potentially STAB Body Press), great set of resistances to make up for the two big crippling weaknesses to Water & Ground.
The typing is already fairly decent to begin (but mostly for offense) so we can't really go wrong with that. It will be interesting to see how we avoid leaning too much on the offensive capabilities: this aims for a modest budget project compared to the others. Fire / Normal would be a more risky yet ambitious alternative.

This is one fascinating suggestion. Here to avenge all shitmons early bird Mons! Ghost resistance / immunity is always welcome and that without a Fighting weakness is even better. It definitely has a defensive profile, even if it's very much focused on its two immunities as it is pretty barebones outside of that. It will require more tools that others proposed typing but we can learn a lot from this one. And I just love the prospect of having a CAP early bird.

This typing is so weird conceptually. Ice is a strong offensive type but Poison adds absolutely nothing to it and vice-versa in defense. I suppose the most unique part here is the Fairy + Ice resistance without a Fighting weakness (which is a fairly common coverage for these), which is its one positive point over Steel. It matches well onto Valiant, it can put some work against stuff like Kyurem, Meow or Weavile too I guess. I have trouble wrapping around it and what it can do, but I can feel the potential especially with Snow being a thing.

Another un-explored typing, given that its best rep is Wormadam. Sounds good, not too much to add. Bug is a an interesting typing by itself here, and coupled with Ground we have a solid physical defensive basis which will be interesting to work.

Others
I kind of like it, as it also naturally leans towards an offensive build like Fire / Fighting yet has some defensive merits. Rock brings mostly two interesting resistances, Fire and Flying (and uh, some bad stuff too). It can work with Sandstorm as well but I fear the weakness to Boltbeam might be too crippling.

I like this more than I probably should. I don't think the quad-weaknesses are the biggest issue as I often feel Water and Grass are rarer and a bit telegraphed as coverage (compared to say Ground which is very common) so while it hampers our defensive profile, it doesn't risk that much being dropped by random Water coverage.
However, we would really need to differentiate ourselves from Rhyperior, which kind of already embodies the strength of a Rock / Ground tank (not a wall I suppose). It is entirely possible, don't get me wrong but it might add additionnal strain to the process... or boost our creativity.
 
I feel that Steel/Normal could work for this concept because despite having a good defensive type to be a wall it still has common weaknesses to make it less wally but if it can tank the hit then most likely it can move on to help it's team block any hit and retaliate with its moves. We don't see many normal type walls other than blissey and having another option for a normal type on bulky teams could be really interesting it could also help sweeper like teammates to try to tank against stuff that it's teammates would have trouble against. The interesting thing about this typing is that it could combo well with multiple play styles like stall or balance . Although I do not expect it to win it feel it might be a more unique typing as contradicting typing does not necessarily mean bad typing.
 
Turns out there were more types I wanted to talk about, so I'm making a second post so I can actually talk about them

...

I'll lead off with an expansion on Electric/Dark, which I threw on as an honorable mention at the last second. Like I said in the post in question, a very light Pokemon with that typing would shut Gambit down completely. That would be its main draw over it also being a solid Gholdengo check, as Normal/Fire answers Ghold better due to having an immunity to one STAB while still hitting it SE with its own. Still, we don't see a hell of a lot of defensive Electrics as a whole, the only bulky ones that come to mind as viable being Zapdos, Krillowatt and maybe Iron Hands.

Next up, Ice/Flying. Yu speed-ran the official submission post for it (which I don't blame them for; I used to roleplay, so I of all people should know that writing takes its toll at the worst of times), but it was talked about at length in Discord as a top contender for most usable Ice-type. I still have concerns that it winning would cause the ability stage to become one of, if not the most linear stage I'd ever seen for a CAP. But aside from that, I'd be honored to see this on the slate, whether alongside or even in place of Ice/Fighting, the latter of which I wouldn't even be mad with should that ultimately happen.

...

I wish I could support Bug/Ground with a real amount of faith, but Discord brought up a good point on how difficult it would be for a mon of that type to carve out a niche for itself... that none of the other millions of Grounds in the tier already have covered. I'm sure that would be the first thing that'd be ironed out when it got to Concept Assessment le 2nd, but first it has to even make the slate which... well, if I were ausma, the aforementioned niche-carving difficulty would be the reason I'd ultimately cut it :/

Speaking of types I wish I could support, I bailed on Ice/Poison for a reason. What I have here are the notes I took on the talking points I had in mind for the Ice/Poison pitch, approximately a day or two prior to when ausma actually allowed us to sub for anything. At first I was excited about the pitch I was gonna make... but then I took the time to think through Ice/Poison's so-called "positive match-ups". The majority of the mons I'd identified as such can and do run Knock Off to interfere with said match-ups. The sole exceptions were the two Fairies; Hemogoblin actually invests in its Speed and will more than likely be faster as a result, making its Fire STAB all the more dicey, and Cresceidon can paralyze Ice/Poison CAP to potentially deny key heals. Sp. Atk drops from Moonblast also suppress the damage output from Freeze Dry, which doesn't do Ice/Poison CAP any favors.

The last couple of typings that I honestly don't know how I feel about are Normal/Fairy and Normal/Steel. Fairy and Steel have always been prominent types on the defensive side, and Normal doesn't sabotage either one of them as heavily as something like Ice would. For the record, I'm not trying to argue that they'd actually be anti-concept; not at all. But they're most certainly pushing it.
 
Last edited:
I’d like to claim my support for Dark and Dark/Electric! Liked I talked about in my previous post, my appeal towards these types are drawn from three major characteristics:

1) Neither option has a weakness to entry hazards, negating the concern of the role of HDB in longevity and incentivising safer switch ins, which should feel impulsive regarding walls.

2) Neither option has a current mainstream relevance as a defensive type. Dark typing provides a psychic immunity, yes, but also opens up weaknesses to Fighting, Fairy and the omnipresent U-Turn. Dark/Electric adds resistances to Flying and Steel in exchange for a much more concerning weakness to Ground. In the case of mono Dark, the current OU caliber mons only find viability through frail offence; consider Darkrai and Zoroark as direct examples. Consistently, the only Dark types that have been able to serve as a defensive wall were those complimented by dual typing in addition to a supportive ability; Tyranitar, Incineroar and Ting-Lu all have framework to back up their competitive viability. At lower tiers, mono Dark mons with supportive abilities such as Mightyena have failed to achieve the same result compared to alternatives like Krookodile. Dark/Electric is a deviation from the historic appeal of mono Dark’s contradictory defense, but relevant with a similar argument in the case of Morpeko.

3) These are the sorts of types that most directly invite counterplay, and by extent the most direct methodologies to deny counterplay. Garganacl succeeds by threatening to block progress from offensive Water and Steel mons, which would normally beat it. Similarly, Dark and Dark/Electric invite clear offensive switch ins such as Great Tusk and Landorus-Therian, among others. These sorts of archetypal attackers have distinct vulnerabilities that we are able to capitalise upon through CAP 35 - Prankster + Will o Wisp here is an example that makes Lando less likely to feel comfortable clicking U-Turn.

Alternatives such as Dark/Bug do not carry the same ease - counterplay versus a hazard-weak mon would likely manifest as Knock Off vs HDB and gradual hazard weardown. This is a murkier spectrum to enter in terms of anticipating which mons we want to prepare CAP 35 against, and thus makes this endeavour trickier to get right and less appealing.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top