CAP 30 - Part 11 - Moveset Discussion

[Brambane]

cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 172 HP / 84 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird / Drill Peck
- Amnesia
- Coil
- Roost / Recover

Immunity to poison means we can plop our fat ass in front of Pokemon that rely on Toxic to deal with set-up sweepers. this spread is designed for MNI Kyurem, but customize for whatever defensive benchmark you want. Max Speed for max greed and being able to Amnesia vs the likes of Krilowatt and Coil against other CAP30i I guess? You could probably get away with just enough Speed for Kartana if you don't fear the Astro.

 

[Gaboswampert]

No one wants to try to test this build with me, so im just gonna post it

cap30isnakerattler (M) @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Taunt/Roost
- Coil
- Gunk Shot/Brave Bird

I dont know if taunt is ilegal now, but i hope it isnt, it has to be really fast, to taunt mons that could twave it or wwisp it, and also vs physical attackers to use coil/roost fast, its like a coil setup sweeper, it boosts his attack an accuracy to use gunk shot more efectively, but if you want, you can just run it with brave birb, knock off is really useful versus walls and to have a neutral attack vs magnezone and lets it more into the utility/utility wallbreaker (but its more like a set up sweeper) and with roost can recover, and dont be preocupated of powerful earthquakes or recover from powerful brave birbs, coil is really needed it the set ngl xD, in the only test i could did, my set countered the imprison set with taunt, and my lord the coil boosted gunk shot did some marvelous things (one, but i calculated and it can do more marvelous things), and in the test, 30i got burned, but gunk shot just did a crazy amount of damage, but i think it was because it was boosted xD

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

My original intention with putting setup aside was to try to place focus on some general tools for the breaker set, but the repeated suggestion of sets with setup moves, and the discussion around that, has made clear that certain moves that might be useful to the breaker set could end up broken with the setup sweeper set.

As a result, I am pausing moveset submissions so that we can establish a direction. I would like all of you to address the following questions:

• It has been suggested multiple times in the thread that Taunt, in combination with Swords Dance or Coil, could potentially become a broken combination for 30i. Do you agree with this sentiment?
• Are there any other moves that seem fine on a non-boosting 30i set, but become problematic when paired with setup?
• Do any of these concern extend to 30b, especially in light of the support for Nasty Plot expressed in the thread?

 

[Gaboswampert]

I would like all of you to address the following questions:

• It has been suggested multiple times in the thread that Taunt, in combination with Swords Dance or Coil, could potentially become a broken combination for 30i. Do you agree with this sentiment?
• Are there any other moves that seem fine on a non-boosting 30i set, but become problematic when paired with setup?
• Do any of these concern extend to 30b, especially in light of the support for Nasty Plot expressed in the thread?

First question:
Idk really, that, it can just destroy some teams that are not prepared for set up sweeper 30i, because it can easily boost and taunt the enemy to make it not boost/to make the enemy not taunt 30i, and after that, simply sweep, but others can counter that really easily, like taunt pranksters, or simply more fast taunters, or simply using a counter like electric types, or just heatran and magnezone, that i found really good counters, the thing that can REALLY broke the set up sets, is amnesia, because, if we give amnesia to cap 30, cap 30b is gonna be pretty op, because is gonna wall in both sides and recover, and the only good counter to that it haze, and taunt just, vanishes all haze users that can resist 30b body press

Second question:
I dont see anymore options for the 30i set up sweeper, acid armor could be, but its not that strong to be considered problematic

Third question:
I find 30b more on the staller side, i dont really see it being a threat with nastly plot, like, it CAN be obiously, but, you can just, send a blissey, or a fast special attacker, is a little op, but not too much in my opinion

 

[quziel]

My original intention with putting setup aside was to try to place focus on some general tools for the breaker set, but the repeated suggestion of sets with setup moves, and the discussion around that, has made clear that certain moves that might be useful to the breaker set could end up broken with the setup sweeper set.

As a result, I am pausing moveset submissions so that we can establish a direction. I would like all of you to address the following questions:

• It has been suggested multiple times in the thread that Taunt, in combination with Swords Dance or Coil, could potentially become a broken combination for 30i. Do you agree with this sentiment?

Give the choice between the two I'd prefer to go with boosting instead of Taunt. Imprison is a way more targeted version of Taunt available to us, slots in very efficiently onto lead sets, and all that jazz. That said, I don't think we should allow Swords Dance, as the power boost is simply too high.

• Are there any other moves that seem fine on a non-boosting 30i set, but become problematic when paired with setup?

Like maybe priority? Honestly the mon's sorta just fine with 2 moves, anything else is gravy.

• Do any of these concern extend to 30b, especially in light of the support for Nasty Plot expressed in the thread?

Do not give 30b Calm Mind ty.

 

[Rabia]

• It has been suggested multiple times in the thread that Taunt, in combination with Swords Dance or Coil, could potentially become a broken combination for 30i. Do you agree with this sentiment?
• Are there any other moves that seem fine on a non-boosting 30i set, but become problematic when paired with setup?
• Do any of these concern extend to 30b, especially in light of the support for Nasty Plot expressed in the thread?

I think boosting + Taunt is fine so long as it isn't Swords Dance. I could see Nasty Plot being risky, especially if you're looking at the interaction against say, Blissey or more specially bulky Toxapex, but I'm not convinced on paper that it'd be too much.

Nothing stands out to me as acceptable absent of boosting but overbearing when boosting is added in. The nice thing with cap30 is there aren't STAB boosting options available to it, which limits the potential of moves like Extreme Speed and Vacuum Wave a fair bit. Maybe if it's Swords Dance + Extreme Speed that could get dicey? That's the most... extreme... example I can think of, though.

 

[dex]

• It has been suggested multiple times in the thread that Taunt, in combination with Swords Dance or Coil, could potentially become a broken combination for 30i. Do you agree with this sentiment?

I absolutely do. I think boosting in general should be off the table, not only because there is a risk here that it could become fairly broken, but also that I don't really think CAP30i is going to have the available turns to setup given its low bulk and tendency to take rocks and BB recoil. Taunt seems like a much better option, though I too would prefer Imprison.

• Are there any other moves that seem fine on a non-boosting 30i set, but become problematic when paired with setup?

Priority (namely Sucker Punch) seems a little borked with setup, but nothing else comes to mind.

• Do any of these concerns extend to 30b, especially in light of the support for Nasty Plot expressed in the thread?

While I do see the potential issues with Taunt + Nasty Plot, I don't think that combination is actually that worrying. Calm Mind + Taunt, on the other hand, seems pretty disgusting at first glance. If Calm Mind is given to the mon, Taunt should not be allowed. It's legit a CM Fini that can roost on Zeraora and heavily chip Arghonaut, all the while boosting its one weaker defense. No thanks.

 

[spoo]

I feel that SD + Taunt in conjunction with one another would be far too strong. I am less sure of Taunt + Coil, but my gut tells me that it would also be overpowered. Pokemon like Skarmory, Toxapex etc really can't check us anymore when they're taunted and we're past +0; Pex / Slowbro can switch in as we boost and threaten to burn us, but if Scald doesn't proc on their very first try, they will likely be 2hkod even after just one Coil.

I really disagree that Imprison is the preferable option over Taunt for the most part. Imprison feels like a cool but inconsistent tech at best and a dead slot at worst. If you aren't facing Skarm / Corv, I seriously question how much impact Imprison will have in a game. Even then, it's a very telegraphed move and not the hardest thing to take advantage of. Imprison gets even less useful if hazard control options are not approved, which I am personally leaning towards anyways –– there are better ways to make cap30 viable.

It also seems to me that cap30 needs to "choose" if it wants to be a setup sweeper, or a more utility-focused Taunt abuser (something in the manner of Rabia's set earlier in this thread). If we want to pursue SD / Coil then options like Imprison could be very cool for us, but if we decide to go a different route than boosting, Taunt becomes immediately preferable in my opinion. There is very little point in denying Taunt if we also deny SD / Coil. I'm personally quite conflicted over these two paths and what I prefer wrt Taunt vs boosting; Taunt seems like it might make a more interesting (and viable? hard to say) end product, but boosting is what dominated basically the whole Stats stage and would obviously be strong in its own right, so there's that I guess. Frankly I would be fine with either, we just gotta pick one.

To briefly answer the other questions –– SD + Priority scares me, but I think something like Sucker Punch (maybe even espeed?) + Coil would be okay. As for 30b, I think most stuff would be fine with NP aside from maybe Ground-type coverage, even Taunt. I'm personally much less worried about 30b as long as we stay away from Calm Mind.

 

[shnowshner]

Seeing as the Recover/Roost argument hasn't seen a proper conclusion yet, here's my thoughts on the matter:

While there is a tangible difference between how the two function, the situations where Roost differs are very specific. It's easy to envision 30b or 30i being hit by a slower Earthquake user like Hippo, but the circumstances need to align for this to actually happen.

1. The user of a Ground-type attack must be slower than 30i/30b
2. Both Pokemon must be able to move at the same time.
3. Roost and Ground coverage must be used on the same turn.

I feel these situations are going to be quite uncommon. 30b is naturally resistant to passive damage with a Toxic immunity and HDB blocking all hazards, so it will only recover HP after having taken damage, likely from something not actively using Ground moves due to our Flying type. 30i is likely going to recover off forced switches, which only gives less room for it to be hit while landed.

I see these two moves as effectively the same despite such differences. Even in the case of our Poison/Flying type getting hit by EQ due to Roost, that's still a risky decision one has to make, as 30 not using Roost means you just wasted your turn entirely. I don't see much of an advantage towards using either over the other just because the situations it matters are so few and muddied by gamestate and player action.

The biggest impact these have IMO is in conjuction with quziel's suggestion of Imprison, as it would restrict the healing of their respective users, i.e. Roost makes you better versus Corv while Recover is better versus Toxapex (or like Soft-Boiled for Blissey if you're into that). I think that does add a bit more nuance into these as its a targeted way to shut down part of a team's defensive core.

TL:DR without Imprison I don't think Roost vs Recover & clones is really much of an argument, and we could have both without any real negative consequences. With Imprison there is a bit more to consider for each 50% Recovery move as it would tie into which Pokemon Imprison is able to sabotage and could affect some of our C&Cs.

I will also add that Taunt sounds a tad strong when having to consider how both forms might use it, but if boosting isn't a direction we pursue it might be okay.

Nasty Plot (w/o taunt considered) sounds like a good fit on 30b seeing as its ass slow for a setup-sweeper and its Special movepool is likely going to be underwhelming (Hurricane misses, Air Slash sucks + misses too, discussion so far dislikes other coverage). It's enough to scare out more passive mons but won't help much against more threatening SpDef mons like Glowking, and we're still liable to getting outpaced by the fast majority of attackers in the metagame. I think the move makes a lot of sense in terms of giving 30b a distinct purpose and competitive niche outside defensive Poison/Flying roles and allows for a lot more versatility in what it can do.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

This is the sentiment I've gotten so far:

• Swords Dance + Taunt on 30i will be too strong and should not be an allowed combination.
• Coil + Taunt on 30i seems less strong than Swords Dance + Taunt, but opinions are mixed on whether it would still be too strong.
• Nasty Plot + Taunt on 30b seems acceptable.
• Calm Mind + Taunt on 30b will be too strong and should not be an allowed combination
• Swords Dance + priority on 30i has been the other suggestion for a broken combination, but is lessened due to the lack of STAB priority and does not seem as important to deal with at the moment.

In order to move forward with 30i, we need to make a decision on what moves we want to keep and what moves we want to eliminate. As I see it, these are our options:

• Ban Swords Dance only
• Ban Swords Dance and Coil
• Ban Taunt only
• Ban Swords Dance and Taunt
• Ban nothing

Swords Dance has consistently been pointed to as the stronger option, so I did not feel the need to present an option to ban Coil by itself. I also provided an option to ban nothing, for those who think that the combination of Taunt + boosting is fine for 30i. Since we haven't focused on 30b yet, and Calm Mind's power level may be contingent on Taunt's inclusion, I will hold off on the Calm Mind question for now, although the negativity surrounding it has put it on my radar for blacklisting.

I would like to hear about what people think of these options, which one they think we should take, and if there are any other options not listed here that would be good routes. I am giving 24 hours for this discussion. If the discussion is inconclusive, we will go to a poll.

 

[Rabia]

Preferred order for me is Ban Swords Dance > Ban nothing > all the other options. I do think Swords Dance alongside other options like Substitute, maybe priority, and Taunt could be problematic enough to nip it at the bud entirely. Taunt independent of Swords Dance is not a move I am worried about. I stated earlier that maybe Taunt + Nasty Plot could be problematic on 30b, but more discussion on that front first is worth having.

 

[Gaboswampert]

I think that Ban Swords Dance only or Ban nothing, baning taunt seems like the best option, but banning taunt to cap 30 eliminates a lot of the "utility wallbreaker/utility" role that it was in the start, and welp, yes, we have a plethora of utility moves, but taunt is one, if not the most, useful, i think because of how everyone said it, that swords dance is overpowered, because, with just one boost, it can sweep a lot of teams, oh and btw, DONT give agility or a speed boosting move to cap 30, the majority of his non bulky counters/one shotters, are a little more fast that cap 30/30i, and if it boosts his velocity a little, it can just ohko them with brave birb or one of his poison STABs, and i dont really see a problem with the nasty plot 30b set, like, it counters physical attackers and walls, but you just send a fast special attacker and its done

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I would say either Ban Taunt only or Ban Taunt and Swords Dance

Taunt just needs to go plain and simple. Even if we do end up removing both Swords Dance and Coil, I don't think the problems of it denying a lot of our defensive counterplay are really absolved by the fact that we aren't able to set-up. Pretty much all of our best defensive answers so far absolutely hate Taunt ( and are doing jack shit to us and has to rely on Scald burns, and if we have substitute, then its in the same boat as the other two) and it really feels like it just turns the match-up into having to rely on a 50/50. There is also the potential issue of how Taunt + Set-Up would affect 30b, and to be honest, I would rather just deal with the issue regarding Taunt now so that we have more time to discuss other aspects of 30b.

I'm sort of neutral on the topic of Swords Dance though, so I'm not really going to go into detail on that front. I don't really find it super concerning myself (Mostly because 30i really doesn't get that many set-up opportunities), but I do understand where a lot of the concerns other people have are coming from though.

I think that Ban Swords Dance only or Ban nothing, baning taunt seems like the best option, but banning taunt to cap 30 eliminates a lot of the "utility wallbreaker/utility" role that it was in the start, i think because of how everyone said it, that swords dance is overpowered, because, with just one boost, it can sweep a lot of teams, oh and btw, DONT give agility or a speed boosting move to cap 30, the majority of his non bulky counters/one shotters, are a little more fast that cap 30/30i, and if it boosts his velocity a little, it can just ohko them with brave birb or one of his poison STABs, and i dont really see a problem with the nasty plot 30b set, like, it counters physical attackers and walls, but you just send a fast special attacker and its done

We have a plethora of options to pick from in regards to what sort of utility role we want CAP30i to fufill, especially considering how it basically has two completely free moveslots. Banning Taunt isn't going to compromise our role as a utility wallbreaker.

 

[Tommaniacal]

Ban Taunt Only

Swords Dance is only broken in conjunction with taunt, and as others have said the combination of Set Up and Taunt on 30B is equally scary. Set Up works well by itself on both 30i and 30b, so it should remain an option moving forward.

 

[spoo]

snip

While I don't outright disagree with most of the claims here, I also fail to see how any of this is specific to only Taunt.

Even if we do end up removing both Swords Dance and Coil, I don't think the problems of it denying a lot of our defensive counterplay are really absolved by the fact that we aren't able to set-up. Pretty much all of our best defensive answers so far absolutely hate Taunt ( and are doing jack shit to us and has to rely on Scald burns, and if we have substitute, then its in the same boat as the other two) and it really feels like it just turns the match-up into having to rely on a 50/50.

All of this is true for Swords Dance too, though. SD allows us to trivially break through Corviknight, as the only thing it can do to avoid being setup fodder is slow pivoting out; however, this is likely leaving it below half health in the process, which is far from ideal. If we SD as Skarmory comes in on us, it completely folds as a check. Swords Dance also allows us to break past Toxapex and Slowbro with minor chip, or even 1v1 them in many circumstances. The point about Substitute + Taunt being problematic is equally, if not more, applicable to Substitute + Swords Dance. (Only referring to SD here because I think Coil, while still good, is significantly worse by itself.)

There is also the potential issue of how Taunt + Set-Up would affect 30b, and to be honest, I would rather just deal with the issue regarding Taunt now so that we have more time to discuss other aspects of 30b.

Swords Dance is only broken in conjunction with taunt, and as others have said the combination of Set Up and Taunt on 30B is equally scary. Set Up works well by itself on both 30i and 30b, so it should remain an option moving forward.

Why is Taunt the problematic element here though? If Taunt + setup is an issue, could we not also get rid of setup and discuss other aspects of 30b then? Taunt also works by itself on 30i, so why should that not remain an option while setup does?
I also disagree that setup and Taunt on 30b is equally as scary as it is on 30i. It's mentioned here that other people have said it is equally scary, but skimming back through this thread, I didn't find anybody stating that (though I could've missed something). I'm not denying the possibility it would be broken, but I've yet to see a convincing argument for that combination being truly problematic on 30b.

For the record, I think boosting would be fine and I don't mean to argue explicitly against it; I'm more trying to point out that a lot of the arguments against Taunt go both ways. Both Taunt and SD will deny a lot of defensive counterplay, but CAP 30i is likely going to be kept in check offensively and by forcing chip damage regardless.

--

Out of the proposed options, I think my preference leans towards Ban Swords Dance only and Ban Swords Dance and Coil, in that order.
Honestly, I think both Taunt and setup are really promising avenues. I believe their power levels are roughly similar, and for me it comes down to the fact that I expect Taunt to be much less volatile.

 

[Darek]

I'd like to advocate for banning both Taunt and Swords Dance. While it's generally agreed that the combination of the two is problematic, I'd like to discuss the problems each of these moves carry individually.

My main problem with Taunt is that the utility it provides feels like utility only in name. Practically speaking, it's used to shut down defensive checks by denying recovery/phasing/haze and likely has little relevance denying hazards and such. Usage of Taunt feels like it comes from a desire to just kill things rather than making use of 30i's remaining moveslots to make progress against defensive answers through other means. As such, it's overall a distraction from what the extra moveslots 30i ought to be. I feel like Imprison is much preferred here, as it is a far more interesting and unique route to take, as well as being much more targeted with what it shuts down.

Swords Dance runs into a similar problem where while certainly effective, is broken at worst and anti-concept at best. I feel like SD kind of just exists for us to kill things, which while a surefire route to viability, doesn't really explore the potential offered by30i's remaining moveslots. I think that far more engaging play and counterplay can be created if we focus on providing other means of progress other than outright killing things.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I haven't contributed much to this discussion but now that we have some options I want to throw my weight behind

• Ban Swords Dance and Taunt

I'm not a fan of either move. I think they're quite likely to cause us problems both individually and especially in conjunction. Taunt is especially problematic because of its ability to be abused by both forms, although Swords Dance is clearly too much as far as set up goes, particularly because Toxapex, Tomohawk, Argh and Clefable as far as Haze/Unaware counterplay are all shredded by 30i. Instead, I believe Coil is a much safer option, that also has interesting interactions with some of our main moves, and it allows us to better take advantage of Gunk Shot and even Brave Bird by giving us some slight physical bulk.

 

[Jewvia]

Maybe it was a misunderstanding in how defining moves were defined, I was under the impression that they would have been mandatory following the stats poll. Especially given how Chromera turned out, with Ice Beam staying on until post release.

I'd like to write a bit against banning Swords Dance. When it came to 30i's stat spread, its access to Swords Dance was a defining feature that came up in setting it apart from the other subs, especially as it was attached to the submission with an atk stat on the lower end. With our combination of typing, stats, and reliance on Brave Bird, I am not confidant that we will be able to be able to break walls meaningfully without it.

To copy a quick calc from snake's original stat submission...

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird/Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 112-133 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (11.8 - 14.1% recoil damage)
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Toxapex is probably one of the bigger walls this generation, and our wall breaker is not able to deal with Toxapex. If we have taunt, we are still victim to it being able to swap in and then instantly swap out without much penalty while we are out a good chunk thanks to recoil. If we don't have taunt, it can just sit on us and hit Recover and Scald. And if we push a button that is not Brave Bird that doesn't do damage, such as Taunt, Roost, a missed Gunk Shot, it gets a free turn to just press Scald without penalty, or even set up Future Sight with Slowbro forcing us out shortly after.

This also adds that, if we get hit by a scald ever when swapping into something that has it as a move, such as most if not all popular water type defensive Pokemon, we get our precious atk stat halved and can't realistically do anything about it unless we have a cleric on the team, which makes our Wallbreaker useless. This in turn sets up an entire selection of walls as threats we cannot reliably break. Being able to set up Sword Dance is a key point in being able to boost our attack in a pinch, or to burst down a wall that thinks it is safe. With this, the opponent is left with the risk of deciding if they can swap to a faster Pokemon when anticipating the burn, or if they should take it as the wall and lose a large chunk of health in exchange for some form of value such as Taunt, Scald, or Thunder Wave. Likewise, Pokemon that would normally be able to safely click on U-Turn or Teleport without major repercussions are now taking a massive hit to their health that could result in their final defeat on their next switch in, and even some of the tamer walls that rely on resistances are at risk of being ohkoed from a predictable setup.

I would vote to either Ban Nothing, or if something absolutely has to be banned, Ban Taunt.

 

[boo836]

I'm going to point out that Swords Dance will make 30i OHKO Corviknight approximately 1/3 of the time with SR up. I'm strongly against giving 30i Swords Dance, but I do support giving it Coil. The stat stage put 30i in a really weird spot over its attack stat.

Gonna be honest and say part of me is concerned that Imprison is being entertained, and it is leaving me wondering if we're actually setting out to make a competitively viable creation (an issue I've been vocal on during multiple stages). I think Imprison Is a funny move to abuse in OMs, but in reality it has a very limited and specific use. As someone who really wants to see CAP work more like an OM than a boring flavour factory, it really hurts to say this, but Imprison isn't good in a diverse metagame and I strongly advocate abandoning this path. I do not support banning Taunt, as it's the only way 30i can wallbreak without boosting moves.

I'm really not down with these wannabe Crobat sets either, especially since Crobat arguably does this better with Super Fang+Toxic/Taunt. It's not a good look to produce a worse version of an RU mon. If we want to make 30i into a utility wallbreaker that optimises Tinted Lens and removes hazards, we should stop focusing on Rapid Spin/Defog and look towards the third removal option, Court Change, which reverses offensive tempo against hazard-stacking or Dual Screens teams.

• How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
  
  Not very. 64 Speed has effectively relegated usage of Body Press to a mono-attacking set, and there's no real capacity to use it as a mixed attacker. We really missed out by not giving 30b >98 Speed. :( A good portion of the best Steels in the metagame aren't hit SE by Body Press (Corv, Jirachi, Scizor and Aegi come to mind), or are hit harder by 30b's special Fire coverage (Melmetal, Ferrothorn, Kartana), so it's not making Fire coverage redundant.
  
  
• Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
  
  Roost only really affects 30B's Hippowdon matchup. Roost's typing loss is only relevant when the user outspeeds the opponent. Roost only really affects whether or not 30i can safely heal on anything with Ground coverage, which affects the Garchomp and Landorus matchups. I think this is only going to be an important question after we determine what coverage CAP 30 should have.
  
  
• Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
  
  I'm going to refer back to what I said about Swords Dance and Brave Bird OHKOing Corviknight a third of the time with SR up. Swords Dance should only be considered with Drill Peck.
  
  
• Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
  
  If anything, it will distinguish CAP30 from Chromera. Steels already don't want to take Lens-boosted STAB moves from 30i, and idk why we would be against 30b being able to dissuade Steel types from coming in. For the little these formes have going for them, it seems rather silly to think coverage will unbalance them.
  
  
• Are there any other thoughts about the defining moves given by the stat submitters that have not been covered by the questions before?
  Taunt is absolutely necessary for 30i to wallbreak without boosting moves. Excluding it from the movepool would deprive a wallbreaker of any means to do its job.
  • Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
    Not a whole lot, and that's one of the biggest issues I have with the products we've made so far. A mediocre HP stat reduces a whole lot of wiggle room for adapting different roles based on varied spreads, and it's even worse for 30b, which has low speed. There's not a whole lot for 30b to do, and even then it doesn't seem to do it particularly well. Viability is going to basically either depend on this CAP30 having access to a wide variety of move options, or a typing overhaul. I'm going to reiterate my recommendation that we look at species and legendary exclusive moves.
    
    
    
  • Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
• No, and I'm going to say that having strong coverage options would prevent this project from being a C-rank out of the gate.
  
  tl;dr stop kneecapping CAP 30

 

[Brambane]

I support banning Taunt and Swords Dance. I was going to make a real nice fancy post about it, but Darek summed up my thoughts nicely in their post. I don't have much else to add to what has already been said, so instead I shall sit on my bum-bum.

 

[snake]

If it wasn't obvious from my last post or my stat sub, I favor keeping Swords Dance and banning Taunt. CAP30i will get some setup opportunities for Swords Dance, but it's also not terribly bulky, forced to be weak to Stealth Rock, and will take recoil to do appreciable damage to Steel-types with Brave Bird. At high HP, CAP30i can and should be terrifying to stare down, but at lower HP I think it's going to have some serious trouble getting back onto the field and using Brave Bird, especially if Stealth Rock is up. Obviously, this how Stealth Rock works, but after CAP30i is at like 50% and takes an additional round of Stealth Rock damage, it'll be at 25% and then really has to consider whether or not it can click Brave Bird before having to click Roost/Recover.

Depending on the result of what we build around, we should absolutely be considering building CAP30i around at least one of Coil, Swords Dance, and Taunt. If we don't, I'm a little unsure where we're going to get our wallbreaking power from because not being able to buff damage output or be able to shut down walls, even on a Tinted Lens user, isn't going to work in a high power metagame. From the options that kj presented, there shouldn't be a case where all three moves are banned; however, I would hope that everyone who supports banning both Swords Dance and Coil are planning building CAP30i around Taunt, and everyone who supports banning both Swords Dance and Taunt are planning on building CAP30i around Coil.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I'm going to point out that Swords Dance will make 30i OHKO Corviknight approximately 1/3 of the time with SR up. I'm strongly against giving 30i Swords Dance, but I do support giving it Coil. The stat stage put 30i in a really weird spot over its attack stat.

Gonna be honest and say part of me is concerned that Imprison is being entertained, and it is leaving me wondering if we're actually setting out to make a competitively viable creation (an issue I've been vocal on during multiple stages). I think Imprison Is a funny move to abuse in OMs, but in reality it has a very limited and specific use. As someone who really wants to see CAP work more like an OM than a boring flavour factory, it really hurts to say this, but Imprison isn't good in a diverse metagame and I strongly advocate abandoning this path. I do not support banning Taunt, as it's the only way 30i can wallbreak without boosting moves.

I'm really not down with these wannabe Crobat sets either, especially since Crobat arguably does this better with Super Fang+Toxic/Taunt. It's not a good look to produce a worse version of an RU mon. If we want to make 30i into a utility wallbreaker that optimises Tinted Lens and removes hazards, we should stop focusing on Rapid Spin/Defog and look towards the third removal option, Court Change, which reverses offensive tempo against hazard-stacking or Dual Screens teams.

• How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
  
  Not very. 64 Speed has effectively relegated usage of Body Press to a mono-attacking set, and there's no real capacity to use it as a mixed attacker. We really missed out by not giving 30b >98 Speed. :( A good portion of the best Steels in the metagame aren't hit SE by Body Press (Corv, Jirachi, Scizor and Aegi come to mind), or are hit harder by 30b's special Fire coverage (Melmetal, Ferrothorn, Kartana), so it's not making Fire coverage redundant.
  
  
• Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
  
  Roost only really affects 30B's Hippowdon matchup. Roost's typing loss is only relevant when the user outspeeds the opponent. Roost only really affects whether or not 30i can safely heal on anything with Ground coverage, which affects the Garchomp and Landorus matchups. I think this is only going to be an important question after we determine what coverage CAP 30 should have.
  
  
• Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
  
  I'm going to refer back to what I said about Swords Dance and Brave Bird OHKOing Corviknight a third of the time with SR up. Swords Dance should only be considered with Drill Peck.
  
  
• Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
  
  If anything, it will distinguish CAP30 from Chromera. Steels already don't want to take Lens-boosted STAB moves from 30i, and idk why we would be against 30b being able to dissuade Steel types from coming in. For the little these formes have going for them, it seems rather silly to think coverage will unbalance them.
  
  
• Are there any other thoughts about the defining moves given by the stat submitters that have not been covered by the questions before?
  Taunt is absolutely necessary for 30i to wallbreak without boosting moves. Excluding it from the movepool would deprive a wallbreaker of any means to do its job.
  • Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
    Not a whole lot, and that's one of the biggest issues I have with the products we've made so far. A mediocre HP stat reduces a whole lot of wiggle room for adapting different roles based on varied spreads, and it's even worse for 30b, which has low speed. There's not a whole lot for 30b to do, and even then it doesn't seem to do it particularly well. Viability is going to basically either depend on this CAP30 having access to a wide variety of move options, or a typing overhaul. I'm going to reiterate my recommendation that we look at species and legendary exclusive moves.
    
    
    
  • Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
• No, and I'm going to say that having strong coverage options would prevent this project from being a C-rank out of the gate.
  
  tl;dr stop kneecapping CAP 30

Okay, getting past the annoyingly pessimistic tone of this post, a few things come up to mind after reading it.

First off, while I do agree that 30i has problems wallbreaking without access to boosting moves, I find the idea that we aren't getting at least Coil to be extremely unlikely, so I honestly can't find any real reason to be concerned on that front. I also think you are sort of missing the point in regards to why people are suggesting Imprison. The merit it Imprison is that it is seen as a more balanced alternative to Taunt, which understandably has many people concerned (Including myself), since it helps us deal with some of our more common switch-ins better while at the same time not completely denying any sort of defensive counterplay. I honestly think you are sort of underselling the value of being able to prevent Skarmory and Corviknight from healing, since that alone hinders there ability to wall us quite a bit. In general, I'm still not convinced how the pros of Taunt really outweigh the cons, and it feels like a lot of arguments regarding why it shouldn't be removed come from people thinking that Swords Dance is worse (I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't think that really takes into account the possibility that both moves are too much even by themselves).

Second, I'm really confused as to why you think Court Change would be a better avenue to take than Rapid Spin / Defog. My main issue with Court Change is that it puts the job of setting hazards up on your opponent's side strictly on the opponent, since if you put up hazards yourself, guess what? Now you can't get rid of your opponent's. Honestly, between the Stealth Rock weakness, the inability to hold boots, and the constant recoil we are taking, I feel like we arent going to be a super good hazard remover anyways and are function more as a backup one, and having to rely on Court Change really only solidifies that at best and removes even that option at worst.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

quick post about the topic being discussed

I am in support of giving it one of sd or taunt + coil, and am happy with what path either option might lead us on. Both are good choices, with taunt + coil being the "safer" route to take, though i feel that the rocks weakness + massive recoil that we will take by dishing out a strong attack is enough counterplay to prevent sd from going over the top. Due to our less than average bulk its not like we're going to get more than 1 oppurtunity per game (unless we position extremely well -- in which case the player should be rewarded), and a +2 30i at less than 50 should be pretty easy to revenge for any balance team. At +1 we wont be nearly as strong vs some expected switchins such as corv/tran/pex/melm and most likely thud them instead of truly "breaking". i think an apt comparison to what 30i without sd feels like is offensive staraptor in oras/sm (strong stabs due to ability but cant break teams without lots of pre planned support, just a rough comparison w/o taking into account things like final gambit), and raptor struggles to shine because of already mentioned common cons in rocks/recoil/support it needs.

however if sd is deemed as too much, i definitely feel taunt + coil(or howl, mainly focusing on the attack boost) is the way to go. Complaining about defensive counterplay becoming limited via taunt is not entirely true , since the turn on which we click taunt, theres an opportunity cost along with it of taking a hit, which isnt our strongest forte (smalller hits like scald/uturn are also equally brutal), and i feel this is enough to balance out how good it would be on the mon. No setup is also definitely not the way to go as snake said, we are definitely not strong enough(both offensively and defensively) to be able to manage breaking with taunt + stabs alone. As with regards to the whole imprison vs taunt discussion, i feel its a pretty bad alternative -- why purposefully make yourself "worse" just for the sake of making it unique? Barring the corv/skarm mu you are essentially carrying a dead slot (whereas taunt can make for interesting/more useful interactions vs ferro since you cant be knocked) , and if youre relying on that to be your breaker through the metal birds, might as well run a zone at that point.
tldr : not a fan of imprison, taunt is a great fit and its viability might be overhyped (possibly due to astro ptsd)

dont want to make a seperate post regarding only this but i feel once we're done deciding, we should look towards including foul play on 30i. on more offensive teams you can afford to run this slot as part of your metal bird checks ( in addition to another half check like pult for example ) since we live bp / outspeed. Can never be in shortage of cawm checks.

 

[Astra]

I share similar reasoning for not wanting to ban Swords Dance and/or Coil just yet to snake_rattler's reasoning. While 30i will obviously be incredibly dangerous to face once it's allowed to set up, the conditions it needs are quite precise for you get it on the field safely and find an opportunity to set up. Even after setting up, the amount of recoil 30i will receive with Brave Bird recoil and potentially Stealth Rock chip would mean that it would eventually need to heal up, which won't be easy, switch out, which would mean that you need to get the correct conditions again (plus more with it being weakened) to allow it to come in again, or have it KO itself, which is obviously not always optimal. Essentially, with how difficult it would be for 30i to come in safely to set up, it should be rewarded for being able to do so, yet you still would need to be as cautious as you were before 30i even entered the field with how detrimental recoil is to 30i's potential within a game.

I do, however, would like to Taunt banned, especially when paired with a setup move. Maybe there would be a little more leeway if it gets it without any setup move, but even then, with the amount of initial power it has, 30i can be very overwhelming when you're unable to cripple it with status or heal up against it, which is incredibly detrimental to its main proposed counters in Toxapex, Slowbro, and Skarmory. Even without setup, forcing its counter to switch out that may not be able to tanks its hits as well would make Taunt a must-have on 30i with how powerful it is. Access to a setup move amplifies Taunt's power as well with out efficient it can force 50/50s so easily. As such, Taunt should not be allowed for the final movepool in order for 30i to be healthy for the CAP metagame. I do like Imprision as a compromise, though, with a reasoning similar to Darek's reasoning for supporting it.

 

[quziel]

I have played a number of test games using the voted spreads and abilities. These test games are, naturally, biased data, in that they are played in an environment where 30i/b are both very new and at the forefront of most of the participant's building, in addition to including a lot of mirror matches. With that disclaimer aside, the impression I have gotten is that 30i is honestly quite passable with only Roost + Brave Bird, and really does not need that much help, beyond the issue of where it fits onto a team.

Taunt as a move does worry me to some degree, as it does allow us to easily win 1v1s vs something like Skarmory, and Toxapex 70% of the time, however it also opens us to completely wasted turns, eg an opponent going into Pult/Zera/Weav on a Taunt turn typically will mean at least 25% damage (aka SR) on us. In this way I am open to Taunt, even if I view it as unnecessary.

Swords Dance is where I do get worried, as while it does have the same risk of a wasted turn, if predicted correctly it allows us to easily bypass Toxapex, and really removes a lot of the opponent's ability to try to pivot around us. The inclusion of Swords Dance means that an opponent suddenly takes on a very large amount of risk by trying to scout us with a U-turn Landorus. Unlike Taunt it also synergizes very well with Substitute, a move that we are very likely to use. Unlike Coil, Swords Dance manages to clear the threshold to KO Toxapex with a +2 into a +0 hit 100% of the time with rocks up. Swords Dance also means that we are unlikely to be able to give any priority moves, which, while a very, very, very minor concern, is also worth considering.

I should note why I think scouting us with Lando/Pex/Bro is useful, and something I think we should preserve. Currently a lot of our counterplay is going to be faster pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Dragapult, and Weavile, all of which we OHKO from full HP. By preserving this method of scouting, we ensure that an opponent can take us on with those without simply having to risk a OHKO on a missed prediction. Frankly it should also be noted that Lando, Pex, Bro can only scout us in this manner a small number of times, eg meta lando taking 40% from BB.

Neither of these moves are likely to make us overpowered, as the vast majority of our strength is tied into Roost + BB, but it could complicate our counterplay, and doesn't really solve the issue of "why is this on a team". I would prefer to go with Taunt out of the two, but I would really prefer to lean more into Utility, and give us options such as Stealth Rock, U-turn, or Defog (rocks probably better because of how team dynamics will work given our typing).

----

I have seen some people arguing for Court Change. Court Change is a move that is ineffective on this Pokemon. The nature of our inability to hold HDB means that we need our side of the field clear of SR to maximize our lifespan, and while Court Change can do that, it can only do so once. If rocks go up twice, we are suddenly back into our original predicament, and we get worn down in a matter of turns. Court Change is not a move we should realistically consider.

I would also warn against trying to give us signature moves for the sake of giving signature moves. Oblivion Wing had a similar push for no reason beyond opening up frail special sets a bit. A minor goal should be pursuing verisimilitude, that is, we should try to make CAPs using tools that are widely available, rather than giving out signature moves which will make our Pokemon look less legitimate.