CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

[Squawkerz]

I'm not sure if I'm in a position to ask questions like this, but I'm willing to anyways.

With our current typing, stats, and allowance of Spirit Shackle/Anchor Shot/Both, how can the semi-trapping moves be usable on CAP23 and not completely outclassed by the fully-trapping moves?

From the way CAP23 is being built, the semi trapping moves feel totally outclassed. If someone were to use a semi-trapping move, it would have to use a set like this

Name: Infestation
Move 1: Toxic
Move 2: Infestation
Move 3: Spirit Shackle
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• The combination of Toxic and a semi-trapping move can easily wear down bulkier opponents, while preventing them from switching
• Infestation would be used as the main semi-trapping move because it hits everything
• Spirit Shackle is used as the Ghost STAB and another method for trapping the opponent
• Dragon Claw is used as the Dragon STAB, while Outrage can be used for more damage, but the confusion makes it more risky
• Comatose makes CAP23 immune to status moves, which allows it to wear down the opponent without worrying about getting statused itself
• Jolly is used to get the leg up on Medicham-Mega and Non-Choice Scarf Plasmanta

There is still problems with the use of Infestation, however.
1. Spirit Shackle out damages it, even with the extra binding, making it less likely to be used
2. The permanent trapping of Spirit Shackle would make it the preferred choice of trapping
The above two problems will likely keep Infestation from gaining usage, and even not being used at all.

But is there any way that the problems semi trapping moves cause be remedied?






Edit: Just looked at the earlier recovery discussion in this thread, and noticed that Z-Healing was undiscussed. One option I would like to offer is Haze and it's Z-Move.

Balanced Qualities-
-Prevents CAP23 from using any other Z-Moves
-Allows for a good Z-Status move that isn't setup based
-Only one use, unlike other recovery options

Unbalanced Qualities-
-Removing stat changes and fully healing is very powerful on a trapping pokemon
-Using it with a Ice coverage move would make it hard to deal with, especially the idea of guessing between Z-Haze or Subzero Slammer
-Vanilla Haze can still be used with trapping to deal with Setup Sweepers

 

[Deck Knight]

Two more sets with different moves:

Name: Curse
Move 1: Curse
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Infestation / Toxic / Toxic Spikes
Move 4: Pain Split / Substitute
Ability: Comatose
Item: Grip Claw / Leftovers
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• Ghost Curse's biggest weakness is that by the time you use it on something, the opponent can finish you off or just switch out of it. Not so if they are trapped!
• Spirit Shackle provides a reliable form of damage and a permanent trapping effect. It is used to finish off opponents weakened by the passive damage effects.
• The third slot is an option for additional passive damage. Infestation stacks on an additional 12.5% damage to Curse's 25%, Toxic sets an opponent on a timer, and Toxic Spikes doesn't affect the current target but if set up prior can leave multiple opponents susceptible the set.
• Pain Split immediately recovers the HP loss from using Curse and puts opponents in a bind very quickly. Substitute eases prediction and in conjunction with Leftovers can allow CAP passive healing against trapped walls that can't break it in two or even three hits like Pyroak and Toxapex. If using Grip Claw, always use Pain Split.
• Max Spe EVs ensures CAP will move first to pull off a Sub or a Pain Split before or after using Curse. Otherwise HP investment gives stronger Substitutes.
• Grip Claw along with Infestation ensures the opponent will have to endure 7 turns of residual damage, Leftovers provides the set longevity.
• While I don't want to assume anything flavor ability wise, you could use Rest in either the 3rd or 4th slots with another ability to increase the consistency of the set at the cost of being susceptible to status before resting up.

The only new move introduced here is Curse.
- - -

Name: WispyCAP
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
Move 3: Shadow Bone
Move 4: Icicle Crash / Megahorn
Ability: Comatose
Item:Leftovers / Firium-Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• Substitute provides CAP the opportunity to safely investigate against counterplay and be able to Wisp vulnerable targets more effectively.
• Will-O-Wisp burns physical attacking opponents, giving CAP breathing room against physical defensive threats.
• Shadow Bone provides a strong STAB attack and avoids making this a trapping set. The additional Base Power gives it more damage potential and any defense drop synergizes with the rest of the set.
• Icicle Crash puts offensive pressure on Bulky Ground types and comes with a flinch chance to help finish opponents off. Megahorn drills through Dark-types that resist Ghost STAB, notably KOing Colossoil with SR damage and a round of Flame Orb.
• Leftovers gives the set more longevity to use Substitutes and set up Wisps, Firium-Z can be used to get a one-time +1 Attack Boost while using Wisp. It also causes CAP to not take full damage from Knock Off.

New moves introduced here are Will-O-Wisp and Megahorn. Not that art matters, but our CAP does have substantial ram horns, and Megahorn does hit Dark-types without also hitting any Steel-types effectively. This set could use Spirit Shackle to ensure the opponent doesn't immediately switch to Hawk on the Firium-Z Wisp, but the attack boost combines so much more nicely with Shadow Bone's potential defense debuff.

 

[cbrevan]

Before I get to the moveset by moveset critiques, I'd like to address some things I think we all have some room for improvement on. For starters, everyone needs to keep in mind that everything being posted is pure theorymonning. This isn't analysis writing where everything that's being put down has been proven in the field. There's no community consensus already present that says running X move on Y set is optimal- you need to do what you can to prove that it is. In that vein, the vast majority of sets posted need calcs to show how the described moves may work in actual play, and virtually every set posted needs to tie in the goal of the set and the moves with our concept and threatlist. Lastly, I think we also need to lend more an an ear to balance problems when we're proposing potentially controversial moves for specific sets, so that we have as great an understanding of a move's overall power level as possible. Also, I'd love to see greater feedback on the posted sets, since our overall goal for this stage is to have well reasoned sets identified to serve as the base for our movepool, and having multiple people critique each set will help a lot in this respect. Anyhow, on to the feedback.

Name: Z- Wallbreaker
Move 1: Outrage
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Zen Headbutt
Move 4: Toxic
Ability: Comatose
Item: Dragonium Z/Psychium Z
Evs: 4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Outrage let's CAP23 punch through almost anything not immune to it with extremely power Dragon STAB. Also can turn into the 190 BP Devastating Drake to break through walls without being locked in.
• Spirit Shackle gives us a Strong Ghost STAB that also traps CAP's targets for Wallbreaking.
• Zen Headbutt allows us to break through targets such as Tomohawk and Toxapex, who we would otherwise struggle with getting through, as well as nailing Mega Loppuny on the switch. Can also be paired with Psychium Z to help further the breaking of the former.
• Toxic is used to wear down targets with a brutal status, giving them a set time limit when trapped. Also can help break down walls once a Z-move has been exhausted.
• Z-Crystals can help breaking ability with either super strong stab or coverage for certain foes.
• Evs makes it the best possible attacker.
• Nature let's it move faster.

This isn't a comment for your set in particular, but I'd love to see some calcs showcasing how powerful Devastating Drake is from this CAP and it's affect on our threatlist. An explanation as to why Dragnium z is preferred over Ghostnium z is also warranted, as Never Ending Nightmare does have a greater impact versus Pokemon CAP 23 will have trouble handling without a damage boosting item, such as Magearna. One thing I'd like to point out is that without the appropiate Z crystal or a boosting item, neither ZHB or Psychic Fangs can do more than 3HKO both Tomohawk and Toxapex. While I don't believe this would mean we can't beat Toxapex handily, it does make it one hell of a grinder matchup, but it is significant in the Tomohawk matchup where it can put the CAP on a much faster timer. While that is unfortunate, the inclusion of Toxic does allow us to wear down Tomohawk much faster than it does to us, and that could be added to the moveset description. Also, in regards to ZHB vs Psychic Fangs, I think Fangs is the overall superior option because of how it's much more consistent for both users (lack of misses and flinches).

Moveset Submission

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Spirit Shackle / Phantom Force
Move 2: Drain Punch
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Anchor Shot / Infestation
Ability: Comatose
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Attack / 68 Def / 12 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Adamant

• Spirit Shackle is a decently powerful STAB and allows CAP to trap everything except for Normal types.
• Drain Punch provides excellent coverage and a way for AV CAP to heal off damage it may have taken during a trapping turn. It can offset the damage from Pyroak's Lava Plume completely.
• Knock Off can remove items from trapped opponents, or catch counters on a switch and remove their item making them less of a threat to CAP. It's an excellent support move that also allows CAP to remove any Shed Shells still floating around.
• Anchor Shot is an excellent backup trapping move that threatens Fairy-types and specifically allows CAP to defeat Clefable 1-on-1. Infestation is an extremely safe alternative trapping option that can also capture a pivot before switching, or be utilized in combination with Phantom Force to rack up partial trapping damage before a hard hit.
• Maximum Attack to hit hard, 8 Spe EVs to outrun Max Spe Adamant Bisharp and other Base 70s.
• Defensive EVs allow CAP to avoid a OHKO from unboosted Bisharp Sucker Punch, and KO in return with Drain Punch. 12SpD is the spare after other EVs.
• Set is specifically advantageous against Clefable (w/ Anchor Shot), Tapu Lele, and can effectively wall and dismantle many special attacking threats.

Assault Vest has a lot of interesting applications with trapping because defensive opponents with only special attacks (which are many in CAP) no longer have the option of just switching out. Assault Vest can maximize the utility of both full and partial trapping and Knock Off by allowing CAP to set up the conditions for a favorable matchup on a switch, and its ability to run defensive EVs and a more potent offense (bar LO AOA sets) are points in its favor for inclusion.

I think an Assault Vest set is a realistic idea, especially with how good our STAB coverage is and our special bulk. However, the set does have several moves which I'm altogether wary of. Knock Off in particular seems like a very powerful utility option, and not just for this set. A greater explanation as to why removing Shed Shells, especially from Pokemon like Skarmory, is beneficial for this CAP would be appreciated. Drain Punch is also a move I'm not sold on yet, but I'm not against it either. Judging from what I've read in the thread, the main opposition to it is it's impact on Dark-type switchins and Ferrothorn specifically. Perhaps a possible compromise lies in Leech Life to provide a deterrence against Pursuit trapping and semi recovery while lessening the matchup advantage versus Ferrothorn. Either way, more discussion on how susceptible we want the CAP to Pursuit is probably warranted. Infestation + Phantom Force seems like a valid combination, but some specific matchup examples where it's better than simply striking repeatedly with Shackle would be appreciated, since it's arguably a more gimmicky option overall.

Moveset Submission

Name: Disable Tech
Move 1: Substitute / Protect
Move 2: Disable
Move 3: Spirit Shackle
Move 4: Drain Punch / Icicle Crash
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Substitute to set up substitutes to hide behind, Protect if you want to target and disable pivoting moves.
• Disable to disable threatening moves that break the Substitute, or to disable a defensive Pokemon's Recovery or pivot move.
• Spirit Shackle for STAB and to trap opponents either before a Sub or behind one.
• Drain Punch for coverage. It can 2HKO AV Colossoil, making it a relatively ineffective counter with good prediction. Icicle Crash is more effective against pivots like Landorus-T that try to pivot in for the Intimidate and then U-turn out.
• Max Attack and Speed to set up Subs quickly and maximize damage.
• CAP's great set of resistances and ability to remove the switching option to get out of an unfavorable Disable makes it an excellent dismantling set.
• The Protect variant of a set can jam Zapdos's Volt Switch and Disable it if it comes in on Spirit Shackle, forcing it to face CAP 1on1.

The ability to actually shut down pivoting with the creative use of Protect and Disable is really gnarly, and makes CAP quite unpredictable. It's downside is that it can also be used to Protect on, say, Skarmory Whirlwind. However CAP can't lock down both Roost and Whirlwind on Skarm at the same time, so it still loses even with a successful trap.

I'll be frank here, I don't like this set in the least and I don't see myself allowing Disable without one hell of an argument for it. Disable is a very hard punish to any Pokemon which doesn't have two solid ways to hit the CAP for significant damage, and in most cases this means a variety of defensive Pokemon from both sides of our threatlist. For example, Sub + Disable will break through defensive Celesteela's running Fire coverage, as well as making Clefable unable to beat the CAP 1v1. In normal cases this wouldn't be a problem since the opponent can just switch to another check, but with the trapping mechanic available we can create situations where the victim is unable to win not because of their matchup with the CAP, but because of the number of attacking moves they choose to run. I just don't believe a set like this is healthy to allow.

Moveset Submission

Name: Z-Bait
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Outrage
Move 3: Toxic Spikes
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Psychium Z / Rockium Z
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Outrage is the Primary STAB that deals heavy damage to neutral targets
• Spirit Shackle is the secondary STAB that helps CAP23 to trap its targets
• Toxic Spikes wear down trapped Pokemon with a Poison status and baits in Poison types
• Psychic Fangs hits supereffectively Tomohawk, Arghonaut, Pyroak and all the Poison types that will come in to remove Toxic Spikes
• Stone Edge hits supereffectively Pyroak, Mollux and Zapdos
• Z crystals boost the damage of Stone Edge or Psychic Fangs, making the CAP23 job faster
• Evs makes CAP23 as fast and strong as possible
• Jolly Nature allow CAP23 to outspeed targets like Timid Zapdos, Jolly Landorus-T and Timid Volkraken

This set aims to bait the Poison types that can absorb or ignore the Toxic Spikes and then remove them with the right Z-move

Name: Hazardous Trapper
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Outrage
Move 3: Spirit Shackle
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Dragonium Z / Psychium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• The purpose of this set is to lure out and weaken bulky Poison types and hazard removers and successfully lay Toxic Spikes, which gained support throughtout the thread.
• Toxic Spikes are great on this mon, as it allows it to wear down threats on the field, giving CAP23 and its teammates an easier time to bust through bulky walls.
• Outrage is CAP23's most powerful STAB option, and ensures it can keep up offensive pressure.
• Spirit Shackle is the secondary STAB option, and allows CAP23 to trap and apply pressure to bulky mons.
• The choice between Psychic Fangs and Stone Edge is a tough onw. Psychic Fangs is usually the superior option to break the Poison types that want to absorb Toxic Spikes. But if the team itself is well ensured against Poison types, Stone Edge is a viable option to bust up defoggers like Zapdos.
• Lofe Orb gives a general boost in power, Psychium Z should be chosen if using Psychic Fangs and if opting for Stone Edge, Dragonium Z is a viable option.
• Maximum EV investment Attack and Speed allow CAP23 to maintain its great speed tier and hit as hard as possible.

The above two sets are virtually identical in function and purpose, so I believe they should be consolidated into one, probably just by slashing the items together on either one. I suggest one of the two of you do just that and then work together to optimize it.

As for the moves themselves, Toxic Spikes is certainly an interesting option, as is the idea of using trapping to lure in and forcibly remove hazard removers. However, the question I find myself asking is "Are they needed?"; I understand that they'd be good on this Pokemon but a greater analysis of what they do for us matchup and threatlist wise seems warranted. Aside from that, a good comparison between items would be appreciated, especially the various Z moves and how they help further the goal of this set.

Moveset Submission
Name: Coverage Trapper
Move 1: Anchor Shot
Move 2: Dragon Claw/Outrage
Move 3: Brave Bird/Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Icicle Crash
Ability: Comatose
Item: Flyinium Z/Psychium
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• .Anchor Shot lets us deal with pokemon we want to counter like Tapu Bulu while letting us trap pokemon that are immune to Spirit Shackle for example Chansey.
• .Both Dragon Claw and Outrage are here for the STAB and possibly to give rid of other dragons like Cyclohm which is a Volturner and another being Rotom Wash which cant do anything with Will-o-wisp thanks to Comatose. Outrage is a powerful move that lets us defeat trapped pokemon.
• .Brave Bird and Psychic Fangs let us deal with Tomohawk, Mega Venusaur, Arghonaut' and others and with a Z Powered Move can do much more damage.
• .Icicle Crash let's us deal with a VoltTurner which runs rampant in OU, Landorus. Also lets us deal with other Pokemon like Tangrowth.
• .Max Attack for the most Attack possible and Max Speed with Jolly so we outspeed other Pokemon.

What I find most interesting about this set is you're decision to drop CAP's Ghost STAB for an extra coverage move. As such, some more reasoning behind this decision would be appreciated, specifically how it changes our matchups. A greater comparison between the pros and cons between Brave Bird and Psychic Fangs would also be great to see.

Name: Lure
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Substitute
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Pain Split
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

SubSplit works really well for this for a number of reasons. It reliable beats and even sets up on Tomohawk, Sub protects it somewhat against Colossoil Pursuit, and most importantly Substitute forces Steels to attack it to break its Sub, using attacks that Magnezone can easily switch in on. This would work okay even with Pain Split, but the ability to Sub more and take advantage of the ridiculously high base HP of things like Soil and Krilowatt would make make this a lot more effective.

A Sub Toxic set seems like a very realistic option to help break down Tomohawk and other bulky Pokemon. My main concern lies in Pain Split and the potential recovery it provides, which given how low our uninvested HP is when compared to the health pools of invested walls and pivots, could possibly find a viable home as the fourth move in an offensive set. I think an analysis of Pain Split and how viable it would be on an offensive set would go a long way in demonstrating how reasonable Pain Split is or isn't. Lacking Pain Split, Protect is a possible fourth option to help compensate for the lack of recovery, as is Phantom Force to help stall.

Moveset Submission
Name: All-Out Attacker
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Dragon Hammer / Outrage
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Drain Punch
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Psychium Z / Dragonium Z
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Spirit Shackle is a fairly powerful STAB move that allows CAP23 to trap anything that is not a Normal-type.
• Dragon Hammer is a strong STAB move that notably threatens opposing Dragon-types and provides neutral coverage on a plethora of types.
• However, Outrage can be used instead, notably being able to securing the 2HKO on Cyclohm.
• Psychic Fangs is for Poison- and Fighting-types such as Fidgit, Mollux and especially Tomohawk.
• Drain Punch beats Dark- and Steel-types, such as Bisharp and Tyranitar, who would resist CAP23's other coverage moves otherwise.
• Comatose prevents CAP23 from being burned from moves such as Will-O-Wisp.
• Life Orb boosts CAP23's power by 1.5x, helping it break down walls more effectively.
• Psychium Z helps CAP23 break down more defensive threats such as Arghonaut, Toxapex and Mega Venusaur.
• However, Dragonium Z can be used alongside Outrage in order to threaten bulkier threats with a strong 190 BP Devastating Drake.
• The EVs are to maximize CAP23's offensive power.

This was brought up in several posts already, but a proper explanation as to why Dragon Hammer is needed over Dragon Claw is needed. For Drain Punch, I already commented on the move in DK's AV set, although I will echo my earlier proposal of Leech Life over Drain Punch to help keep Ferrothorn as a potential counter. However, I'd like to know why Drain Punch is needed over say Brick Break on this set, as well as Leech Life over X-scissor if you think Bug coverage has potential.

Moveset Submission

Name: Laser Focus
Move 1: Laser Focus
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dual Chop
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs / Icicle Crash
Ability: Comatose
Item: Flyinium Z / Psychium Z / Icium Z
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Laser Focus vs a trapped target guarentees us a crit on a move that's going to hit it hard, especially if it's used for a SE Z-Move.
• Dual Chop added in on the off chance we want to consistently go LF-DC-LF-DC, Outrage as general beatstickery otherwise. Could just as easily be Dragon Claw (Dual Chop is *slightly* stronger, but we're talking like an average of 3 Damage on average from a sample calc).
• Crit Z-Psychic Fangs KOs Physically Defensive Tomohawk 93.8% of the time, 87.5% OHKO rate on Toxapex, and always KOs M-Venusaur. Crit Z-Brave Bird OHKOs Tangrowth 93.8% of the time, and Crit Z-Icicle Crash lands OHKOs on Zapdos and Landorus-T.
• Counters including Skarmory still manage to ignore us on even the unlisted Ghostium Sets (252 Atk Giratina Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory on a critical hit: 226-267 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Celesteela can just get LS up and then Protect (Although strongest options crit for at most 62%), Scizor just Roosts us off, and we don't have the time to set up vs Tapu Fini anyway.

This set is one of the more balanced attempts to further beat down our defensive targets I've seen, mainly because of how situational Laser Focus is to use effectively. The main problem that Laser Focus may present is that Never Ending Nightmare back by a crit does significant damage to Celesteela and Ferrothorn, but as you said they can mitigate this somewhat with Protect.

Moveset Submission
Name: Chip Annoyance
Move 1: Phantom Force
Move 2: Drain Punch
Move 3: Dragon Tail
Move 4: Substitute/Psychic Fangs/Toxic/Toxic Spikes
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• his set aims to partner with hazard setters such as Spikes Ferrothorn or Toxic Spikes Toxapex, with whom CAP has excellent defensive synergy and its Ghost typing allows for Rapid Spin immunity.
• Phantom Force serves to be a handy Ghost STAB option that makes CAP invulnerable for a turn, while also allowing it to stall for Toxic Spikes poison, and permit additional Leftovers recovery.
• Drain Punch provides perfect coverage with Ghost STAB and allows CAP to hit Normal mons and Dark mons for good damage, while also providing additional recovery.
• Dragon Tail provides secondary STAB, racks up chip damage with hazards and forces out set up sweepers/hazard removers who might try to take advantage of CAP’s passiveness.
• Last slot is mainly filler. Substitute allows CAP to take advantage of switches, bypass Sucker Punch and Pursuit and scout. Psychic Fangs nails Poison Switch ins trying to absorb its mates Toxic Spikes, and could be paired with Tapu Lele to hit harder. Toxic and Toxic Spikes are pretty explainitory as they let CAP set up passive damage in its own right.

snake_rattler already covered our main concern with Dragon Tail on this set in an earlier post. As for the rest of the set, look at the AV set and Toxic Spike Lure sets for my commentary on Drain Punch and Toxic Spikes. A possible direction to take this would be to focus on sustainability and bulk to take advantage of a possible spinblock role the CAP may have.

Moveset Submission

Name: Scarf + Lele Support
Move 1: Spirit Shackles
Move 2: Outrage/Dragon Claw
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Memento/Healing Wish/Parting Shot
Ability: Comatose
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant

• Lele not only protects CAP from priority, but buffs Psychic Fangs to get several relevant 2HKOs, particularly Mollux, Tomohawk, and Toxapex, with a relevant OHKO on Plasmanta
• 252+ Atk CAP Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux in Psychic Terrain: 362-428 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
• 252+ Atk CAP Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk in Psychic Terrain: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk CAP Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Abomasnow Psychic Fangs vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta in Psychic Terrain: 270-318 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Spirit Shackles is just the most powerful physical Ghost move, and it punishes a bad predict.
• Memento and Parting Shot can punish offensive mons attempting to switch in expecting a wallbreaker set and works well with other mons that like Psychic Terrain support, whereas Healing Wish can be used to trade CAP for a heal on a more valueable mon.

I like the idea behind the set, but I don't see the need for any of Memento/Healing Wish/Parting Shot outside of them being generically good on choice users. Why do we need to have an additional punish to offensive switchins than hitting them with either of our stab moves on the switchin? An earlier concern for pivoting moves were that they play into the main checks for some our counters, such as Magnezone and Tapu Koko. Why should Parting Shot be allowed with that in mind?

I think a much more realistic fourth moveslot would be additional coverage, such as Brave Bird or even Stone Edge, both of which are better at revenge killing Volcorana and Mega Pinsir.

Moveset Submission

Name: Heal Block
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Icicle Crash / Outrage
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Psychium Z / Figy Berry / Dragonium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 152 SpD
Nature: Adamant

• Heal Block's main purpose is to prevent Tomohawk and Toxapex from recovering, allowing us to more easily beat them. It also prevents Zapdos from Roosting, Arghonaut and Mollux from recovering (Mollux gets Recover?) and MVenu from using Synthesis. While Heal Block isn't as powerful as Taunt, it still keeps our counters and checks (namely Skarmory and Ferrothorn) more intact than Taunt would.
• Spirit Shackle is our main STAB move, trapping our foes as well. Also, it actually does a good amount to Tomohawk, which makes room for Psychium Z.
• Psychic Fangs is our main tool against stall. It lets us beat Tomohawk, Toxapex, MVenu, Mollux and Arghonaut.
• If you're looking for Dragon STAB, go for Dragon Claw. It's more reliable than Outrage. Locking into Outrage can lead to disaster. However, Outrage is still a viable option for the slightly more power and a more powerful Z move if you run Dragonium Z. Icicle Crash beats Zapdos and Landorus-Therian.
• Leftovers makes sure that we have enough time to set up our trapping and Heal Block before we die to Air Slash. Psychium Z is another option if you have room for a Z move, as Shattered Psyche kills Tomohawk after Spirit Shackle. Finally, Figy Berry is an alternative to Leftovers.
• EVs are to ensure we live enough Air Slashes from Tomohawk while being able to 3HKO with Psychic Fangs.
• Adamant Nature also supports the 3HKO on Tomohawk with Psychic Fangs, as well as giving more power overall.

This is a well thought out set and post, so I don't have much to say here. If no one else has something to say on this set, I'll be adding it to the approved list soon.
And yes, Mollux learns Recover.

Name: No Heals No Deals
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs / Toxic
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• The purpose of this set is to stallbreak walls by blocking their ability to heal off damage dealt.
• With Taunt and Encore being deemed too powerful, Heal Block I believe is an alternative that is quite acceptable. It stops Toxapex from healing with Black Sludge and Recover, and Mega Venusaur with Leech Seed.
• Spirit Shackle is a great STAB option that also traps the foe, allowing CaP 23 to take full advantage of Heal Block.
• Outrage can be chosen for immediate strong power, but if the confusion effects are deemed too annoying, Dragon Claw is an acceptable alternative. Keep in mind that its power output is severly affected.
• Brave Bird and Psychic Fangs can be used based on which mons you want to pressure more. Toxic is a great third option that works with Heal Block to wear down most walls.
• Z-Crystals are preferred so CAP23 can have a powerful nuke to bust past worn down walls, but Leftovers can also be used for longevity.
• EVs are make CAP 23 hit as hard and as fast as possible.

This is essentially a more offensive version of the above set, which is a solid set in itself. My main two questions are why the Z moves are ordered as they are, and how Heal Block + Z move interacts with our checks and counters.

Moveset Submission
Name: Phantom force
Move 1: Spirit Shackle/ Anchor Shot/Infestation
Move 2: Substitute/Protect
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Phantom Force
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SPD/ 52 SPE
Nature: Careful

This is well, a stallbreaker set for it. It definitely helps kill Tomo easily without the need for z moves and can handle other threats. The only downside is having a substitute up will discourage a volt switch or a u turn (but this cap will get substitute due to most mons having it) Unforutunately this set will have trouble with physical things we'd like to be checking like Lando, but there is an alternative a set like of 252 hp/ 4 atk/ 252 Defense can be ran just to keep lando in 3hko range so you can toxic it then phantom force/protect it to death.

252 spd can be ran as it stops specs keldeo from breaking cap23's sub.
Infestation as suggested by snake racks up more damage yet only 4 turns might prove undesirable

• Spirit Shackle is for that stab trapping move. Anchor shot would be prefferable to trap chansey, none of our counters are hit super effectively by anchor shot.
• Leftovers is so this cap can rack up leftover health when using Phantom Force and substitute.
• Substitute will keep cap23 hiding behind its good stuff.
• Phantom force does damage, goes through substitutes and most importantly can stall for lefties recovery and toxic residue.
• Comatose is the preffered, and only ability. If NCA is usable, feel free to remove phantom force for rest
• These evs, while compromising Cap23's 133 atk allows it to tank more moves from mons
• This set will have trouble with tangrowth's knock off.
• Toxapex can't do much to you but it will take a really long time to kill it unfortunately

Another well thought out set that I don't have much to say about. One thing I don't understand is how discouraging U-turn or Volt Switch would be bad for this set. Offensive calcs are also lacking in that there is not a one for Phantom Force against anything, and for the calcs show it samples only a small amount of Pokemon.

Moveset SubmissionName: Fairy Lock
Move 1: Fairy Lock
Move 2: Spirit Shackle / Phantom Force
Move 3: Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Move 4: Stone Edge / Psychic Fangs
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Sitrus Berry / Aguav Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• Basic goal of the set is to weaken opponents until CAP becomes weak enough that it can use Fairy Lock to trap the opponent that finishes it off, guaranteeing a revenge kill
• Fairy Lock helps to keep the pressure on as mons come in to try and KO CAP, threatening an immediate revenge kill (barring Ghost types) once CAP goes down
• Fairy Lock can actually be used decently well due to CAP's above average speed, allowing it to threaten a Fairy Lock on slower mons trying to KO it
• This can lead to mind games of lock vs. no lock, and with CAPs powerful Atk stat, a misplay could be very damaging
• Spirit Shackle would be used to provide more general trapping support, whereas Phantom Force could be employed for a more damage based approach
• Dragon Claw and Dragon Rush help to balance out the STAB options
• I've purposely forgone Outrage because I think the Confusion risk doesn't mesh well with the Fairy Lock strategy
• Stone Edge and Psychic Fangs serve as a "pick what you want to beat" sort of setup, effective against many Pokémon on the trap and destroy list
• Leftovers, Sitrus, and Aguav serve to provide just a bit more longevity for CAP to get off more damage prior to going down
• The EVs help give the speed as high as it can do give Fairy Lock the best chance of going first
• Attack EVs serve to increase damage output

So, I hadn't seen a Fairy Lock set yet, and we said we'd discuss it, so I'm going to throw up a preliminary one. I'm really busy right now, so it's not very good, but I just would like to see the discussion on it. And yes, I know it's another signature move, but to be fair it's significantly different from Shackle, unlike Anchor Shot, in its trap effect, meriting some consideration. Feel free to tear this apart and suggest stuff, again, this is just really preliminary.

I just want to say that I'm very happy that there's a usable set with Fairly Lock being presented. The direction you took to take advantage of the next turn trap effect is the best use of the move I can think of. As for the move choice, I don't see a reason why Dragon Rush is a valid option when you feel the confusion chance from Outrage is too risky, and more importantly there are no calcs to support it. A greater explanation as to what the moves, specifically coverage moves, are targeting and why they are preferred on this set is needed as well. Lastly, I think the item choice is fundamentally wrong because you're equating increased longevity with increased damage output, which isn't really accurate when the CAP can just use a LO or Z Crystal to do as much damage possible each turn. I also fail to see a reason why the CAP would want to keep itself alive longer either, especially because Fairy Lock is only significant when the CAP is not in play, such as after a revenge kill.

Moveset Submission
Name: Dual Screens
Move 1: Shadow Claw
Move 2: Dragon Claw/Earthquake
Move 3: Light Screen
Move 4: Reflect
Ability: Comatose
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• This set uses CAP’s good typing and special bulk to set dual screens.
• Unlike dual screens Tapu Koko and Lati@s and Ninetales-A, CAP offers different resistances and is immune to status, giving it different opportunities to set up screens.
• CAP is immune to Brick Break, while extremely niche, can be run to take down its screens.
• Established counters Defog Skarmory and Tapu Fini can remove CAP’s screens.
• CAP’s typing draws Steel, Dark and Fairy types, allowing set up sweepers like Mega Charizard X, Volcorona, Cawmadore, Azurmarril, Keldeo, Navithan, Mega Scizor, and Mega Tyranitar to set up.
• Shadow Claw offers broad reliable STAB damage.
• The last move is filler coverage. Dragon Claw offers secondary STAB, while Earthquake let’s it hit Tyranitar, Bisharp and Magenera harder.

It's already been pointed out that Shadow Claw has no place here when Spirit Shackle is a likely option this CAP will have. A detailed matchup analysis along with a good show of calcs are needed to show what Screens actual does for this CAP outside of making setup easier for the rest of the team, as well as why this set would be viable in a metagame with more efficient setters such as Ninetales-A.

Moveset Submission
Name: Shadow Bone / Non-trapping
Move 1: Shadow Bone
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Toxic / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Shadow Bone hits harder than Spirit Shackle, which is your incentive to not use a trapping set
• Dragon-type STAB for extra neutral coverage
• Psychic Fangs pressures our target list pretty well
• Toxic helps wear down bulkier threats while Stone Edge hits Zapdos harder

This is a very straightforward offensive set that I see no immediate issues with. I'm glad you provided calcs showcasing Shadow Bone to justify it's usage; they're significant enough to be worth the moveslot (especially the Mega Sableye calc). One question I do have is why Stone Edge and Toxic in the last slot over other potential options?

Since it's very late for me I'll go through the rest of the sets tomorrow.

Along with the points brought up in my feedback, I'd like people to start thinking about optimizing movesets and descriptions in order for us to start approving movesets. Also, I just want to reiterate that anyone can reply to any feedback to any set, which includes the feedback in this post. I quoted the original posters in my feedback, but I want to be clear that the questions I'm asking in this post are not just for those users in particular, but for the entire community to answer or address.

 

[david0895]

As for the moves themselves, Toxic Spikes is certainly an interesting option, as is the idea of using trapping to lure in and forcibly remove hazard removers. However, the question I find myself asking is "Are they needed?"; I understand that they'd be good on this Pokemon but a greater analysis of what they do for us matchup and threatlist wise seems warranted. Aside from that, a good comparison between items would be appreciated, especially the various Z moves and how they help further the goal of this set.

Toxic Spikes are useful to pressure CAP23 checks, because only Steel types and somebody else can enter on these, forcing the opponent in searching a way to remove them.
About the items, I have chosen Psychium Z because since Poison types will come to remove the Toxic Spikes, Shattered Psyche is more useful than Devastating Drake against sturdier targets:

252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 75-88 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SS+SP= 89.7% - 104.8%
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SS+DD= 80.1% - 96.9%
With rocks and black sludge Shattered Psyche has a minimum damage of 96.3%, while Devastating Drake has a minimum damage of 86.3

252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 103-123 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 276-326 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SS+SP= 104.3% - 113.6%
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 246-289 (67.7 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SS+DD= 96% - 103.4%
In this case, Shattered Psyche doesn't need of rocks support to get the KO

About Rockium Z, I slashed it essencially for Zapdos because is safer than Dragonium Z:

252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 109-129 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 96.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 255-301 (66.5 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
SS+DD= 94% - 112.1%
252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 324-382 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
SS+CC= 112.9% - 133.3%
Continental Crush always guarantees the KO


Life Orb works well tih this set against all primary targets except Toxapex:

wall of calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 135-161 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 199-234 (50.5 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 281-333 (71.3 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 298-351 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 133-157 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 199-235 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 190-224 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 207-243 (54 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 231-273 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In conclusion, I think that the optimal set should be:

Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Outrage
Move 3: Spirit Shackle
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Psychium Z / Life Orb

I prefered to not slash Rockium Z because Life Orb does the same job but without targeting a single Pokemon. Also, it leave the Z-move to another teammate that could appreciate it

This is a well thought out set and post, so I don't have much to say here. If no one else has something to say on this set, I'll be adding it to the approved list soon.

About Heal Block, VannAccessible has noticed that this move will block the recovery moves that the CAP23 counters have (Leech Seed and Roost) and this could be a serious problem

 

[Deck Knight]

Moveset Submission

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Spirit Shackle / Phantom Force
Move 2: Drain Punch
Move 3: Knock Off Poison Fang / Gunk Shot / Throat Chop
Move 4: Anchor Shot / Infestation / Shadow Sneak / Mirror Coat
Ability: Comatose
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Attack / 68 Def / 12 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Adamant

• Spirit Shackle is a decently powerful STAB and allows CAP to trap everything except for Normal types.
• Drain Punch provides excellent coverage and a way for AV CAP to heal off damage it may have taken during a trapping turn. It can offset the damage from Pyroak's Lava Plume completely.
• Knock Off can remove items from trapped opponents, or catch counters on a switch and remove their item making them less of a threat to CAP. It's an excellent support move that also allows CAP to remove any Shed Shells still floating around.
• Anchor Shot is an excellent backup trapping move that threatens Fairy-types and specifically allows CAP to defeat Clefable 1-on-1. Infestation is an extremely safe alternative trapping option that can also capture a pivot before switching, or be utilized in combination with Phantom Force to rack up partial trapping damage before a hard hit.
• Maximum Attack to hit hard, 8 Spe EVs to outrun Max Spe Adamant Bisharp and other Base 70s.
• Defensive EVs allow CAP to avoid a OHKO from unboosted Bisharp Sucker Punch, and KO in return with Drain Punch. 12SpD is the spare after other EVs.
• Set is specifically advantageous against Clefable (w/ Anchor Shot), Tapu Lele, and can effectively wall and dismantle many special attacking threats.

To sort of back this up, the issue with Assault Vest sets is in almost every instance, a good Assault Vest using set has some kind of support attached to it. AV Soil has Rapid Spin, AV Bisharp has Pursuit + Defiant to heavily punish defoggers. Some AV Set's like Conkeldurr's utilize Power-Up Punch and Mach Punch for priority, but we've disallowed stat-ups and I really don't think Power-Up Punch is something we want CAP to have generally. Rapid Spin seems out of line for this particular CAP and I really, really don't think it's a good idea to have CAP be able to Pursuit-trap itself.

So the real question becomes what moves would work for support or utility on an AV Set.

Drain Punch vs Leech Life:

To be honest I kind of forgot Leech Life was actually a top tier Bug-type move now instead of trash. Gen VII you so cray...

Leech Life is certainly a safe option with some utility, and it hits Colossoil harder but not Bisharp. That said, I think people are vastly overselling the threat Drain Punch offers.

252+ Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 99-117 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) [(recovers between 17.6% and 20.7%] -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Drain Punch doesn't even guarantee a 3HKO on Ferrothorn even with Max Atk+, and CAP is still eating the Iron Barbs and Leech Seed damage each time it uses it, and the Drain Punch healing only cancels out Iron Barbs to some extent. Assuming a standard scenario where Ferrothorn with Leftovers switches in as CAP Shackles (assuming average damages):

Scen: Act. 1 - Act. 2 - Act. 3 - Act 4.
CAP: 100% - 94.2% - 58.2% - 64.9%
Ferro: 75.4% - 57% - 37% - KO

Scenario: CAP uses Shackle (30.7%)as Ferro switches in. It proceeds to Drain Punch (38.5% dam, 19.2% Recovery) each turn.
Ferrothorn responds with Leech Seed (CAP and Ferro have basically equal HP) first turn followed by Gyro Ball (30.2%) subsequent turns.

Now, this makes Drain Punch look pretty strong, however if Ferrothorn uses Protect it can wear down CAP significantly and in fact, it beats CAP even with Drain Punch. This of course requires it to have a set of [SR / Spikes]/Gyro Ball/Leech Seed/Protect, but that's hardly an unviable set. Leech Seed also needs to hit, but Ferro does have some leeway.

Here's the full scenario with Protect:

Scen: Act. 1 - Act. 2 - Act 3(P) - Act 4. - Act 5 (P) - Act. 6
CAP: 100% - 94.2% - 81.7% - 45.7% - 33.2% - KO
Ferro: 75.4% - 57% - 75.5% - 55.5% - 73.5% - 44.2%

In summary, specifically against Ferrothorn Drain Punch's healing can't keep up with Iron Barbs and Leech Seed's passive damage when Ferrothorn also has Protect.

Back to Leech Life:

Leech Life does surprisingly similarly against targets despite the vastly smaller number of SE hits. Comparatively:

Drain Punch > Leech Life
Bisharp
Tyranitar
Voodoom
Ferrothorn
M-Crucibelle
M-Lopunny
M-Pidgeot
M-Scizor
Mamoswine
Steel Types generally.

Leech Life > Drain Punch
Colossoil
Hoopa-U
Malaconda
Necturna
Pyroak
Syclant
M-Venusaur
Toxapex (both resisted, Leech Life heals more)
Tapu Bulu
Aurumoth
Latios
Latias
Grass types generally.

Utility attacks for Assault Vest:

So having established Drain Punch doesn't even beat a specific viable Ferrothorn set, we can get on to the kinds of utility an Assault Vest could use. I still believe Knock Off is incredibly useful not just for Shed Shells but also against Leftovers, Life Orb, and Choice Item opponents, but excepting that there are a few other options. Poison Fang has a 50% chance to inflict Toxic status, which is downright nasty on trapped opponents, while Gunk Shot does excellent damage, has a high Poison chance, and wallops the non-Steel typed Fairies that might switch into CAP (like Clefable). That said, it does a bit too much damage to Tapu Fini for my liking, allowing CAP to followup Spirit Shackle with a KO. Calcs provided for context.

252+ Atk Decidueye Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 258-304 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Decidueye Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 258-304 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Decidueye Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 332-392 (107.4 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Shadow Sneak is a priority move that appreciates the damage boost from Adamant, however it does nullify Gengar and pressure Kitsunoh, Syclant, and the Latis as checks, and it also usually beats out Sucker Punch (specifically on offensive sets, not on this one). A few calcs:

252+ Atk Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 99-117 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kitsunoh: 168-200 (55.8 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Scarf Kit)
252+ Atk Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kitsunoh: 168-200 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Wispy Kit)
252+ Atk Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 176-210 (58.4 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 222-264 (84.7 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

On the opposite end of priority spectrum attacks is Mirror Coat, which does work with Assault Vest because it's effective Base Power is 1. Mirror Coat allows CAP to send back the strong special attacks it can now tank back to the opponent, which is incredibly lethal combined with trapping. I had considered Counter as well, however I really feel like Counter messes with far, far too many physical threats, whereas many of the Special attackers that threaten CAP can be overwhelmed by other sets with Z-Crystals or boosting items already.

Finally, Throat Chop is a weird one but it has multiple desirable effects for CAP, shutting down Parting Shot, Roar, and Pixilate Hyper Voices that might be aimed at it and jamming clerics that use Heal Bell. It's also an 80 Base Power Dark move so it's not lacking in damage potential on neutral hits.

 

[Reviloja753]

Name: No Heals No Deals
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs / Toxic / Icicle Crash
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z Psychium Z / Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• The purpose of this set is to stallbreak walls by blocking their ability to heal off damage dealt.
• With Taunt and Encore being deemed too powerful, Heal Block I believe is an alternative that is quite acceptable. It stops Toxapex from healing with Black Sludge and Recover, and Mega Venusaur with Leech Seed.
• Spirit Shackle is a great STAB option that also traps the foe, allowing CaP 23 to take full advantage of Heal Block.
• Outrage can be chosen for immediate strong power, but if the confusion effects are deemed too annoying, Dragon Claw is an acceptable alternative. Keep in mind that its power output is severly affected.
• Brave Bird and Psychic Fangs can be used based on which mons you want to pressure more. Toxic is a great third option that works with Heal Block to wear down most walls.
• Z-Crystals are preferred so CAP23 can have a powerful nuke to bust past worn down walls, but Leftovers can also be used for longevity.
• EVs are make CAP 23 hit as hard and as fast as possible.

I'd like opinions on these two sets, and how they can be improved.

I just don’t like Brave Bird. While the damage looks good on paper, but the main problem is recoil + Rocky Helmet. It wears us down EXTREMELY quick. As such, I replaced it with Icicle Crash, as its really nice coverage to have, as I have mentioned in my set. I also didn’t see a reason for Ghostium Z, so I removed that too. Finally, I added Psychium Z for a nice and powerful way to crush Tomo with your fast and speedy set :D

snake_rattler I personally am concerned about Shadow Bone and its power versus Celesteela and Ferrothorn, among others. Why should we give it that powerful of an option?

 

[snake]

I just don’t like Brave Bird. While the damage looks good on paper, but the main problem is recoil + Rocky Helmet. It wears us down EXTREMELY quick. As such, I replaced it with Icicle Crash, as its really nice coverage to have, as I have mentioned in my set. I also didn’t see a reason for Ghostium Z, so I removed that too. Finally, I added Psychium Z for a nice and powerful way to crush Tomo with your fast and speedy set :D

snake_rattler I personally am concerned about Shadow Bone and its power versus Celesteela and Ferrothorn, among others. Why should we give it that powerful of an option?

Shadow Bone is the best option to replace Spirit Shackle when building a set, and if non-trapping sets are something we want, that’s going to be the move that accomplishes that. The question is whether or not it is too powerful, but the 20% chance isn’t all that common. It’s the same as a meteor mash boost or a crunch defense drop. It just doesn’t happen as often as you’d think.

Or we just don’t have non-trapping sets

 

[G-Luke]

I just don’t like Brave Bird. While the damage looks good on paper, but the main problem is recoil + Rocky Helmet. It wears us down EXTREMELY quick. As such, I replaced it with Icicle Crash, as its really nice coverage to have, as I have mentioned in my set. I also didn’t see a reason for Ghostium Z, so I removed that too. Finally, I added Psychium Z for a nice and powerful way to crush Tomo with your fast and speedy set :D

snake_rattler I personally am concerned about Shadow Bone and its power versus Celesteela and Ferrothorn, among others. Why should we give it that powerful of an option?

A Supersonic Skystrike blasts through Tomo's Rocky Helmet, and Icicle Crash can't threaten Tangrowth (not strong enough), Mega Venu or Pyroak while threatening Arghonaut and Tomo (as much). Also, I personally don't think we need Ice coverage on CAP 23. Also Ghostium Z is for a very strong STAB Never Ending Nightmare, which in some cases is strong enough to blast through the walls we want to threaten without significant coverage. Though I agree with the fact that Psychium Z is also a very potent option as well.

And now that I think about it, to embrace the offensive aspect of it, nixing Leftovers and Toxic is probably a good idea.

 

[DoW]

This is a set I thought of when writing the following post, I think it's still worthwhile putting here. I should note that it's rough around the edges, but works as-is, so if anyone has suggestions to improve it please feel free to suggest them.

edit @ below: my b, updated post to just include discussion, will keep moveset for later

Ultimately, I think the following problems will be met: simply relying on a good attack stat is possible, however the problem with trapping moves is that the opponent is always capable of switching out from them - to my mind, there needed to be a reason the opponent would consider staying in, such that a player good at mind games could trap the required pokemon.

It'll be perfectly possible to just use a physical attacking set with maybe CB or LO, where cap23 clicks spirit shackle on its counter every turn until one of them is worn down, at which point the game is over. Don't get me wrong, the game would still be skillful - it would likely come down to offensive predictions largely surrounding things like entry hazards and maybe sandstorm or similar - but that's not a game of trapping. That's a game of threatening to trap then failing to do so until one of you wins by other means.

Normally the way mindgames are introduced are via setup moves - for example do you click sd with landorus and risk keldeo coming in, or do you click eq and risk mega venu clicking leech seed? However, setup moves aren't really much of an option, assuming we don't want this mon to absolutely require a Z-move. Coverage moves are perhaps an option instead, but in this case I think balancing it so that you can threaten checks but neither counter them and your counters nor lose to mons you counter would be difficult, and I think in the end it would still come down relatively often to the situation I wrote about in the previous paragraph.

Ultimately I think the threat with this pokemon is that there are very few sets where trapping is particularly useful. To reiterate, I think many sets will end up being something along the lines of Cap23 @ Choice Band / LO clicking Spirit Shackle and the occasional coverage move, and perhaps taunt. This is fine, but it's using trapping less effectively than heatran, which really isn't the point of this cap. I can see very few reasons not to, in the end, just run the mon with a choice band and watch things fall over, rather than trying to trap things.

So what I'm trying to say is, we need something threatening to potential switch-ins, the way a potential dragon dance is for a zygarde switch-in would be, and we need to combine this with weak coverage moves that do the job they're supposed to and absolutely nothing extra - something like thunder fang can't break skarm even off CB, but anything stronger will, and is therefore not allowable.

I think for scaring possible switch-ins, status moves like sleep or possibly para could be used, as well as things like curse or maybe a way to keep up momentum like parting shot. These combined with weak, yet usable, coverage, should be able to beat the things it needs to beat, and not much of the stuff that needs to beat it.

Moveset Submission

Name: Curse Trapper
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Curse
Move 3: Acrobatics
Move 4: Protect / Bulldoze / Thunder Fang
Ability: Comatose
Item: Sitrus Berry / Ghostium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD or maybe something different
Nature: maybe Impish / Careful or maybe something else

• The trapping move of choice is Spirit Shackle. Anchor shot on the one hand makes little sense (hitting no mons we need to hit and initially not being the primary choice due to lack of stab) and on the other hand threatens to prevent alolan ninetales, mega diancie, and similar mons from checking similar sets. Binding moves are less predictable and for the most part offer nothing the mon particularly wants that it can't gain from Spirit Shackle.
• Curse is the crux of this moveset. I wanted to introduce some kind of mindgames to incentivise not simply clicking Spirit Shackle every time, and I believe this does the job. The standard move to go for will still be Spirit Shackle - it's low-risk, comes off a high base attack stat, and isn't resisted by many mons. However, there are situations where a Cap23 might want to curse the incoming mon. If a pokemon like Gyarados or Sharpedo or Ttar or <insert mon that beats it here> comes in on a spirit shackle it can threaten to deal significant damage to your team, however curse prevents this from being the case - it has to switch out soon or faint, and often having lost 1/4 of its HP means that it is unlikely to be able to set up again.
• Looking at the mons that Cap23 must beat or pressure, Flying coverage seems pretty obvious for things like Mega Venu, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk etc - especially if the mon won't use Taunt (see below for details). Brave Bird on a mon like this doesn't make sense - the recoil is crippling, especially with the threat of opposing mons healing back some of the damage, and although this isn't really a concern it also doesn't seem like the kind of move this kind of mon would have. Acrobatics, however, pairs relatively well with curse (preventing leftovers, which probably wouldn't be run here anyway), and also goes some distance to prevent the coverage from being used in sets that would beat checks to the mon - for example, brave bird could lead to a choice scarf set EV'd to beat syclant, kerfluffle, and maybe also mons like greninja, but this isn't a threat when the move is weak in conjunction with choice scarf.
• For the last move, protect is a good option for racking up curse damage on things. It should be noted that when curse is used against offensive mons, simply having this option causes further mindgames often, as it is relatively likely they won't have many other checks to Spirit Shackle given this is hte mon they switched to when predicting it, so won't necessarily just switch out on the curse.
• Bulldoze is another option, hitting things like Scarf Excadrill reasonably well. I didn't want to have earthquake here as it seemed too strong an option, however I'm not sure if Bulldoze is the perfect choice here as the speed drop prevents DD naviathan from winning this matchup so easily.
• Thunder Fang is another similar option - weak coverage to hit things like Keldeo and Mega Zard Y, without changing the game too much.
• Taunt is definitely not an option, otherwise it would likely take the last moveslot. Without taunt, this set loses to Ferrothorn and Celesteela, as they switch in on Spirit Shackle or Curse, click Leech Seed on the other of the two moves, generally don't take much damage and heal up most of what curse takes between seeds and leftovers, and generally just sit there until they win. Taunt would mean that they switched in on Spirit Shackle, got taunted, then sat there and died to curse.
• Dragon moves aren't an option for the 4th slot, as otherwise the mon will simply run a banded set with dragon coverage and no longer be checked by things like zygarde and garchomp. If there were a 50 bp physical dragon move I would consider it, but there isn't. I suppose it's possible that a special dragon move might be useful here, but I don't really see a reason to use it over protect.

 

[Darquezze]

Darquezze
Moveset Submission
Name: Coverage Trapper
Move 1: Anchor Shot
Move 2: Dragon Claw/Outrage
Move 3: Brave Bird/Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Icicle Crash
Ability: Comatose
Item: Flyinium Z/Psychium
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

1. .Anchor Shot lets us deal with pokemon we want to counter like Tapu Bulu while letting us trap pokemon that are immune to Spirit Shackle for example Chansey.

• .Both Dragon Claw and Outrage are here for the STAB and possibly to give rid of other dragons like Cyclohm which is a Volturner and another being Rotom Wash which cant do anything with Will-o-wisp thanks to Comatose. Outrage is a powerful move that lets us defeat trapped pokemon.
• .Brave Bird and Psychic Fangs let us deal with Tomohawk, Mega Venusaur, Arghonaut' and others and with a Z Powered Move can do much more damage.
• .Icicle Crash let's us deal with a VoltTurner which runs rampant in OU, Landorus. Also lets us deal with other Pokemon like Tangrowth.
• .Max Attack for the most Attack possible and Max Speed with Jolly so we outspeed other Pokemon.

The main reason to use one or another is coverage,with Psychic Fangs you beat Mega Venusaur, Toxapex, Tomohawk, Mollux and Arghonaut. Also you take no recoil but for the loss of damage. You also don't have a more powerful Z Move
With Brave Bird you can take Arghonaut, Tomohawk, Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur and Pryoak. You hit much harder and have a stronger Z move but for the cost of some recoil.
As for Anchor Shot, we're able to trap Normal Types like Chansey who even if it's not a main focus, immune to Spirit Shackle. We also are able to hit Pokemon with the Rock and Ice typing for super effective damage like Kyurem Black and Crucibelle, same reason as Chansey, we're not exactly countering them. The loss of Spirit Shackle however makes it where we lose to other ghost types and the lost of a STAB move. We also get perfectly walled by Steel types since we lost the only move they might not be fully resistant to.

 

[Okamu]

Edits time~ (Is this how I'm supposed to do large changes? Are these large changes? I actually don't know)
Moveset Submission

Name: Fairy Lock
Move 1: Fairy Lock
Move 2: Spirit Shackle / Phantom Force
Move 3: Dragon Claw / Stone Edge
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Life Orb / Eject Button
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• Basic goal of the set is to weaken opponents until CAP becomes weak enough that it can use Fairy Lock to trap the opponent that finishes it off, guaranteeing a revenge kill
• Fairy Lock helps to keep the pressure on as mons come in to try and KO CAP, threatening an immediate revenge kill (barring Ghost types) once CAP goes down
• Fairy Lock can actually be used decently well due to CAP's above average speed, allowing it to threaten a Fairy Lock on slower mons trying to KO it
• This can lead to mind games of lock vs. no lock, and with CAPs powerful Atk stat, a misplay could be very damaging
• Spirit Shackle would be used to provide more general trapping support, whereas Phantom Force could be employed for a more damage based approach
• Dragon Claw rounds out the STAB option; I've purposely forgone Outrage because I think the Confusion risk doesn't mesh well with the Fairy Lock strategy, and Dragon Rush, despite its power, misses frequently
• If Dragon Claw seems to not be as effective, it may be worth trying another coverage slot in its place, specifically Stone Edge, to allow for high pressure on the Trap and Destroy list all in one set
• Stone Edge helps to beat Pyroak alongside rocks, as well as Mollux and Zapdos while Psychic Fangs attempts to deal with the rest of the threat and destroy list, including Arghonaut, Mega Venusaur, etc. (barring Tangrowth)
• As for the items, Life Orb helps deal enough damage to most targets to secure the 2HKO outright or after Stealth Rock damage
• Ghostium Z serves to provide higher neutral burst damage onto targets on the Trap and Pressure list, like Naviathan, where coverage doesn't provide super effective damage to put any sort of pressure on
• Lastly, Eject Button serves as a niche alternative that allows for Fairy Lock to potentially be used twice, once when you suspect CAP23 will first be attacked, and then again when it's about to die, effectively giving two chances to trap an opponent in against its counter
• The EVs help give the speed as high as it can do give Fairy Lock the best chance of going first
• Attack EVs serve to increase damage output

Some Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 203-239 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 234-278 (61 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 257-304 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 190-226 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Naviathan: 225-265 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Phantom Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Naviathan: 152-179 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Moveset Submission

Name: Elimination
Move 1: Taunt/Torment
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage
Move 4: Screech/Laser Focus
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb / Normalium-Z
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• This set focuses on assassination.
• Taunt and Torment are ways to essentially neuter the bulky Pokemon you have trapped; Taunt prevents Pokemon from using status moves, healing, or doing any shenanigans like Memento, but needs a turn to set up. Torment prevents more aggressive Pokemon like Zapdos (who might be running, say, Hp Ice), from melting through Cap23 while it tries to use Screech or Laser Focus. For example, you'd get hit by a Discharge and a Hidden Power Ice instead of two of the move. It's a slightly less overpowered alternative to Disable.
• Spirit Shackle is the trapping move of choice and provides strong neutral coverage.
• Screech is excellent for boosting Spirit Shackle, and is generally superior to Laser Focus because it frees the item slot for Life Orb or another boosting item. Additionally, it can be used several times. Laser Focus is a respectable alternative because it guarantees a +1 Attack Critical Hit from your move of choice, which lets you keep the buff after KOing the opponent's Pokemon, but has the drawbacks of only one use. Additionally, it can't boost through Pokemon like Chansey who would need more boosting to break.
• Outrage has a hellish amount of damage when used on a Pokemon under the effect of Screech or Laser Focus. It can OHKO, or at the very least 2HKO, most Pokemon, including the bulky ones in our threats list. It is superior to any other coverage.

Now, at a glance, this set looks pretty overpowered. It can trap, restrict, and then eliminate nearly any Pokemon that it traps. However, there are four key points that you have to consider before you say its power is overwhelming.

1. The preparation. In order to make the powerful hit, Screech or Laser Focus must have been used ahead of time. Screech resets after every KO, meaning that the lowered defense is lost after every KO. The incoming Pokemon can easily pressure CAP23 and prevent it from setting up. The boost from Laser Focus's Z-Move remains, but the critical hit, which provides a lot of the sting, is only on the turn after you use Laser Focus.
2. Taunt and Torment require turns to set up as well, so you don't get too many opportunities to use them.
3. Outrage keeps you locked in until it has gone through its full pattern. This means that if you just KO the Pokemon in one hit, there's a high risk associated with being stuck in Outrage in an unfavorable matchup. The opponent could send out nearly any physical attacker to clean up CAP 23.
4. You have to trap the Pokemon in the first place to make sure the opponent doesn't just switch out to negate the stat lowering.

You are also hard-countered by Wigglytuff

Some stats

+1 252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. -2 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 286-339 (94 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 594-699 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. -2 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 695-819 (98.8 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 363-427 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. -2 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 419-495 (109.3 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[cbrevan]

Regarding Curse, I've given it some thought and it seems that overall, the move is inferior to Toxic. While the effect is strong, and seems to put defensive checks on a faster timer, I believe in the majority of cases Toxic would just be superior, as the build up of damage means that a wall will be unable to just heal off the static 25% damage per turn. Factor in how Curse can only be used a handful of times throughout a match because of the massive downside associated with it, and it's clear to me that Curse needs to do something Toxic cannot do in order to be competitive. Luckily, Curse is able to hit the Steel-types and Poison-types that are immune to Toxic, which allows it to introduce significant residual damage against Pokemon such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Magearna, Excadrill, Mega Venusaur, Mollux, Celesteela, Toxapex, etc. In some cases this is a large boon towards our overall goals, for example it allows us to put Toxapex on an actual timer with Psychic Fang, and as DoW pointed out it can also hamper Pokemon who would aim to setup on us, such as Magearna. On the flip side, it does allow the CAP to impart significant residual damage to our entire list of counters, who are all immune to Toxic under most circumstances. Therefore, my big question for Curse is "Why should we allow Curse when Toxic is a similar option that doesn't affect our counters?". Aside from the Toxapex matchup, what other Pokemon that we are targeting to beat does Curse have a significant impact on?

My last concern with Curse would be a set with it and other moves that have been brought up, primarily HeaL Block and Pain Split. Since all three are currently up for discussion, I'd like to see more of talk about two or more of them on the same set, especially with the synergy between Pain Split + Curse and Heal Block + Curse.

Overall, I'm liking the discussion we've had so far. From here, I think out main goals should be to work towards optimizing and approving the sets already posted, as well as reaching more of a consensus on moves such as Toxic Spikes, Shadow Bone, Heal Block, Curse, etc. I also want to remind everyone that it's equally important to evaluate the moves from one set to another, to see if there are any interactions thereof that might be distracting or unwanted towards are goals.

I'll make another post about this later.

 

[DoW]

Regarding Curse, I've given it some thought and it seems that overall, the move is inferior to Toxic. While the effect is strong, and seems to put defensive checks on a faster timer, I believe in the majority of cases Toxic would just be superior, as the build up of damage means that a wall will be unable to just heal off the static 25% damage per turn. Factor in how Curse can only be used a handful of times throughout a match because of the massive downside associated with it, and it's clear to me that Curse needs to do something Toxic cannot do in order to be competitive. Luckily, Curse is able to hit the Steel-types and Poison-types that are immune to Toxic, which allows it to introduce significant residual damage against Pokemon such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Magearna, Excadrill, Mega Venusaur, Mollux, Celesteela, Toxapex, etc. In some cases this is a large boon towards our overall goals, for example it allows us to put Toxapex on an actual timer with Psychic Fang, and as DoW pointed out it can also hamper Pokemon who would aim to setup on us, such as Magearna. On the flip side, it does allow the CAP to impart significant residual damage to our entire list of counters, who are all immune to Toxic under most circumstances. Therefore, my big question for Curse is "Why should we allow Curse when Toxic is a similar option that doesn't affect our counters?". Aside from the Toxapex matchup, what other Pokemon that we are targeting to beat does Curse have a significant impact on?

My last concern with Curse would be a set with it and other moves that have been brought up, primarily HeaL Block and Pain Split. Since all three are currently up for discussion, I'd like to see more of talk about two or more of them on the same set, especially with the synergy between Pain Split + Curse and Heal Block + Curse.

Overall, I'm liking the discussion we've had so far. From here, I think out main goals should be to work towards optimizing and approving the sets already posted, as well as reaching more of a consensus on moves such as Toxic Spikes, Shadow Bone, Heal Block, Curse, etc. I also want to remind everyone that it's equally important to evaluate the moves from one set to another, to see if there are any interactions thereof that might be distracting or unwanted towards are goals.

I'll make another post about this later tonight, after I come home from class.

My reasoning behind Curse over Toxic, aside from Venusaur and Toxapex, was that CAP23 wasn't supposed to be stally itself, and that trapping move + toxic + leftovers almost certainly would end up being precisely this. You're right however that there's still a threat of stalliness here, and I can imagine people who want more than two tries using toxic over curse. I also had in my mind that people might use wish to allow curse more often, though of course this then means more stalliness rather than less.
The other idea was that it causes some reason not to necessarily go straight to your counter, because I can't really imagine a huge number of scenarios otherwise where you might want to stay in with the mon that's supposed to be trapped. I agree however that only getting two (or more realistically, one) attempt(s) at the move means this is somewhat lessened in effect. I still think, however, that pokemon like Skarm remain hard counters yet dislike having the move Curse used on them as they come in, allowing us to remain within the bounds set while having a reason that we might actually trap something rather than merely threaten to do so.

You're also correct in saying we should look to review other peoples' sets more, and I will attempt to do so tomorrow.

 

[Reviloja753]

Two more sets with different moves:

Name: Curse
Move 1: Curse
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Infestation / Toxic / Toxic Spikes
Move 4: Pain Split / Substitute
Ability: Comatose
Item: Grip Claw / Leftovers
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

• Ghost Curse's biggest weakness is that by the time you use it on something, the opponent can finish you off or just switch out of it. Not so if they are trapped!
• Spirit Shackle provides a reliable form of damage and a permanent trapping effect. It is used to finish off opponents weakened by the passive damage effects.
• The third slot is an option for additional passive damage. Infestation stacks on an additional 12.5% damage to Curse's 25%, Toxic sets an opponent on a timer, and Toxic Spikes doesn't affect the current target but if set up prior can leave multiple opponents susceptible the set.
• Pain Split immediately recovers the HP loss from using Curse and puts opponents in a bind very quickly. Substitute eases prediction and in conjunction with Leftovers can allow CAP passive healing against trapped walls that can't break it in two or even three hits like Pyroak and Toxapex. If using Grip Claw, always use Pain Split.
• Max Spe EVs ensures CAP will move first to pull off a Sub or a Pain Split before or after using Curse. Otherwise HP investment gives stronger Substitutes.
• Grip Claw along with Infestation ensures the opponent will have to endure 7 turns of residual damage, Leftovers provides the set longevity.
• While I don't want to assume anything flavor ability wise, you could use Rest in either the 3rd or 4th slots with another ability to increase the consistency of the set at the cost of being susceptible to status before resting up.

The only new move introduced here is Curse.

I really REALLY do not like Curse. Curse and trapping already is crazy enough as is, even with partial trapping. While Curse MAY be inferior to Toxic in most cases, the main issue is that it basically ruins every counter we have as well as a good number of our checks. Ferro, Steela and MSciz are all Steel-types, and Misty Terrain stops Toxic. Sure Fini beats us with Moonblast anyway, but still. We also are supposed to be at least checked by Steel-types. Curse basically throws that all out of the window. However, it becomes an even bigger problem when Heal Block and Pain Split (something else I'm not a fan of but I'll do that later) is factored in. Heal Block + Curse does a significant amount to Skarmory (doesn't beat Skarm alone due to Whirlwind, but still). Pain Split allows it to pretty easily overtake Toxic, as we can simply run these four moves together:

- Curse
- Spirit Shackle
- Pain Split
- Substitute / Infestation / Heal Block

This combination would be extremely dangerous to almost absolutely every bulky Pokemon in the entire meta, which is something we very much have set out to avoid doing. Just please for the love of Arceus, do not let Curse stand.

 

[S. Court]

Laser Focus
Name: Laser Focus
Move 1: Laser Focus
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dual Chop
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs / Icicle Crash / Toxic Spikes
Ability: Comatose
Item: Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Psychium Z / Icium Z
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

I really like this set, this is why I need to comment about how Crit Z-Outrage is a great blanket check for our targets, between the damage of Spirit Shackle and Crit Z-Outrage, we can actually cover a good amount of our targets, I'll assume the scenary they're at full health, because we need a turn to charge Laser Focus, so they can recover their health, considering most of them have attacks like Roost, Synthesis and similar.

Calcs

MegaVenusaur
252 Atk Giratina Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega on a critical hit: 367-433 (101.1 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tangrowth
252 Atk Giratina Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO, considering Tangrowth main set is Assault Vest set, it won't have Synthesis, so using Spirit Shackle or another Outrage after Crit Z-Outrage will beat it in the remote case it survives

Arghonaut
252 Atk Giratina Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut on a critical hit: 493-582 (122.9 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zapdos
252 Atk Giratina Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 538-634 (140.4 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mollux
252 Atk Giratina Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux on a critical hit: 550-648 (139.5 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Landorus-T
252 Atk Giratina Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 378-445 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

The only hard bones to crack with Crit Z-Outrage are Toxapex, Tomohawk (which are covered by Crit Z-Psychic Fangs) and Pyroak (It has Battle Armor, so we can use Spirit Shackle into Brave Bird with Stealth Rock damage)

Since Psychic Fangs and Brave Bird don't do that mucho to Toxapex, Tomohawk and Pyroak if we are using Dragonium Z, and Icicle Crash is not that necessary considering the main targets of Crit Z-Icicle Crash are beaten by Crit Z-Outrage, we can use the fourth moveslot for something else, I suggest Toxic Spikes for the final moveslot, due to its ability to lure defoggers, spinners and Poison Type Pokemon are vulnerable to LF Z-Outrage.

So, in conclusion, Dragonium Z sets cover a good amount of our targets, Psychium Z cover Toxapex, Mollux, Tomohawk and Mega Venusaur, Flyinium Z sets cover Pyroak, Mega Venusaur and Tangrowth and Icicle Crash is might not necessary at all due to its main targets (Landorus-T, Zapdos and Tangrowth) are beaten by LF Z-Outrage

 

[Dogfish44]

S. Court
Thanks for the edits with the Dragonium Z Laser Focus Set, I'll see about posting it in the format tomorrow with more expanded bullet points.

---

So, have some 2c theorycrafting I guess?

Taunt
As loathe as I am to CAP's process of trying to decide counters so far in advance, I am partial to maintaining Skarmory as a counter with Whirlwind. If only because I want to have fun with Magnezone cores.

Either way, Taunt destroys one of our most reliable counters. I'd rather not do that.

Curse
I can see Z-Curse maybe being used, but not beyond that.

I don't find myself in agreement with the general chain of thought that Curse would ruin our counters - I actually think that Curse would be inable to be used to set up on our counters. Assuming the standard 252/4/252 that's popular, using Curse (or indeed Z-Curse) leaves us in KO range for a large amount of attacks, including Tapu Fini's Moonblast, and Celesteela's Heavy Slam. M-Scizor's Bullet Punch moves into the 2HKO range, although hazards make that even stronger.

It's a cute way to tackle the issue of Toxapex, and not one where I can see the immediate balance issues.

Heal Block + Curse
I don't see any issue with the interaction. It takes 2a to get both of these up, and Heal Block has already (imo) been established as not interacting negatively with our counters (beyond making Skarmory have to use Whirlwind - which actually isn't a problem long-term, and it might even be helpful for Skarmory to bait out Curses to shave that 50% off).

Pain Split + Curse
This is the fun one, ain't it? Obviously it's massive Taunt bait, but beyond that it doesn't really meddle with our counters. Mega Scizor has the priority to break through before the Pain Split, Tapu Fini and Celesteela are above, and Skarmory has already used Whirlwind by this point.

 

[snake]

Moveset Submission

Name: Laser Focus
Move 1: Laser Focus
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dual Chop
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs / Icicle Crash Ice Punch
Ability: Comatose
Item: Flyinium Z / Psychium Z / Icium Z
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Ice Punch vs Icicle Crash

So we know that Icicle Crash is for Zapdos and Landorus-T primarily. However, Ice Punch is definitely sufficient when looking at pressuring Landorus-T and dismantling Zapdos. We don't need to go with the stronger option simply because we can, just like we did with Dragon Hammer. Take a look at the following calcs. A non-boosting item set, a Life Orb set and the above Laser Focus Icium Z set (even though Dragonium is better) will be analyzed. Remember that crits ignore the Intimidate drop. Also, don't just pay attention to the "guarenteed w/e after w/e" - look at the actual percentages.

vs. Defensive Landorus-T

Non-boosting
-1 252 Atk Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 180-212 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Life Orb
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 234-276 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 265-312 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage

Icium Z Crit
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 744-876 (194.7 - 229.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 848-1000 (221.9 - 261.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Although the non-boosting set is just barely clearing the 2HKO range, this is the only case where it gets this close.

vs. Offensive Landorus-T

Non-boosting
-1 252 Atk Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 272-324 (85.2 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Life Orb
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 317-374 (99.3 - 117.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 354-421 (110.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Icium Z
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 1012-1192 (317.2 - 373.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 1160-1368 (363.6 - 428.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, the non-boosting set is barely clearing the chance OHKO with Stealth Rock damage range, but it's still close.

Defensive Zapdos

Non-boosting
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 136-160 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Life Orb
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 136-160 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Icium Z
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 378-446 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 432-510 (112.7 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Non-boosting suffers here, but I'll get to this in a bit.

3 Attacks + Roost Zapdos

Non-boosting
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 190-224 (49.6 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 214-254 (55.8 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Life Orb
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 247-291 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 278-330 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Icium Z
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 530-624 (138.3 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 602-710 (157.1 - 185.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Life Orb suffers here just a little bit, but the difference isn't that much.

In these examples, it seemed like the Non-boosting sets suffered pretty greatly, which might cause you to think "snake! Icicle Crash totally helps there so we need it!" Most non-boosting sets realistically shouldn't be running Ice coverage because there are better moves to run like Toxic to pressure them and whittle them down or Stone Edge for Zapdos. Bottom line, with Ice coverage honestly being non-essential (but helpful) coverage, Ice Punch is definitely useful enough for CAP23 to use, and Icicle Crash is just giving it the strongest move because we can.

 

[Deck Knight]

Icicle Crash does have the marginal benefit of not activating Iron Barbs/Rough Skin or Helmet, which is why I used it, but yes, generally speaking we shouldn't default to the stronger available options if we don't have to.

 

[snake]

Another user post:

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Spirit Shackle / Phantom Force
Move 2: Drain Punch Leech Life
Move 3: Poison Fang / Gunk Shot / Throat Chop
Move 4: Anchor Shot / Infestation / Shadow Sneak / Mirror Coat
Ability: Comatose
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Attack / 68 Def / 12 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Adamant

To sort of back this up, the issue with Assault Vest sets is in almost every instance, a good Assault Vest using set has some kind of support attached to it. AV Soil has Rapid Spin, AV Bisharp has Pursuit + Defiant to heavily punish defoggers. Some AV Set's like Conkeldurr's utilize Power-Up Punch and Mach Punch for priority, but we've disallowed stat-ups and I really don't think Power-Up Punch is something we want CAP to have generally. Rapid Spin seems out of line for this particular CAP and I really, really don't think it's a good idea to have CAP be able to Pursuit-trap itself.

So the real question becomes what moves would work for support or utility on an AV Set.

Drain Punch vs Leech Life:

To be honest I kind of forgot Leech Life was actually a top tier Bug-type move now instead of trash. Gen VII you so cray...

Leech Life is certainly a safe option with some utility, and it hits Colossoil harder but not Bisharp. That said, I think people are vastly overselling the threat Drain Punch offers.

252+ Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 99-117 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Decidueye Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) [(recovers between 17.6% and 20.7%] -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Drain Punch doesn't even guarantee a 3HKO on Ferrothorn even with Max Atk+, and CAP is still eating the Iron Barbs and Leech Seed damage each time it uses it, and the Drain Punch healing only cancels out Iron Barbs to some extent. Assuming a standard scenario where Ferrothorn with Leftovers switches in as CAP Shackles (assuming average damages):

Scen: Act. 1 - Act. 2 - Act. 3 - Act 4.
CAP: 100% - 94.2% - 58.2% - 64.9%
Ferro: 75.4% - 57% - 37% - KO

Scenario: CAP uses Shackle (30.7%)as Ferro switches in. It proceeds to Drain Punch (38.5% dam, 19.2% Recovery) each turn.
Ferrothorn responds with Leech Seed (CAP and Ferro have basically equal HP) first turn followed by Gyro Ball (30.2%) subsequent turns.

Now, this makes Drain Punch look pretty strong, however if Ferrothorn uses Protect it can wear down CAP significantly and in fact, it beats CAP even with Drain Punch. This of course requires it to have a set of [SR / Spikes]/Gyro Ball/Leech Seed/Protect, but that's hardly an unviable set. Leech Seed also needs to hit, but Ferro does have some leeway.

Here's the full scenario with Protect:

Scen: Act. 1 - Act. 2 - Act 3(P) - Act 4. - Act 5 (P) - Act. 6
CAP: 100% - 94.2% - 81.7% - 45.7% - 33.2% - KO
Ferro: 75.4% - 57% - 75.5% - 55.5% - 73.5% - 44.2%

In summary, specifically against Ferrothorn Drain Punch's healing can't keep up with Iron Barbs and Leech Seed's passive damage when Ferrothorn also has Protect.

Back to Leech Life:

Leech Life does surprisingly similarly against targets despite the vastly smaller number of SE hits. Comparatively:

Drain Punch > Leech Life
Bisharp
Tyranitar
Voodoom
Ferrothorn
M-Crucibelle
M-Lopunny
M-Pidgeot
M-Scizor
Mamoswine
Steel Types generally.

Leech Life > Drain Punch
Colossoil
Hoopa-U
Malaconda
Necturna
Pyroak
Syclant
M-Venusaur
Toxapex (both resisted, Leech Life heals more)
Tapu Bulu
Aurumoth
Latios
Latias
Grass types generally.

Honestly, I think Leech Life works well enough for what we want to do with Drain Punch / Leech Life. What I'm concerned about is that Ferrothorn is supposed to respond to Drain Punch with Leech Seed to offset the damage, but Heal Block stops that recovery. With this in mind, Drain Punch becomes quite dangerous outside of Assault Vest sets, and this should be taken into consideration:

Name: Mike Tyson's Punch Out
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Drain Punch / Leech Life
Move 3: Psychic Fangs / Ice Punch / Stone Edge
Move 4: Heal Block
Ability: Comatose
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Hopefully this set shows how Drain Punch could be just a little dangerous, as it greatly widens the amount of Pokemon that CAP23 can hit in one set, while blocking Ferrothorn's recovery. On the flip side, Leech Life overlaps with the main coverage that discussion seems to support so far: most Psychic-types are hit by Spirit Shackle and most Grass-types are hit by one of the coverage moves in slot 3. Hitting Dark-types, Pursuit users, is accomplished by Leech Life, and it works on Assault Vest sets too.

Now, the question might be "if Heal Block + Drain Punch is the problem, why not consider getting rid of Heal Block instead?" My point here is that Leech Life accomplishes exactly what Drain Punch aims to do, so there shouldn't be a reason to pursue the arguably "better" move. It's similar to the Ice Punch vs Icicle Crash situation I've outlined and to the Dragon Claw vs Dragon Hammer discussed from the beginning of the thread. Leech Life is definitely the way to go.

----

As for the rest of the Assault Vest set, I'm still thinking about how I feel about the rest of the moves, but Gunk Shot and Throat Chop seem kinda out there, Shadow Sneak doesn't seem to bode well with our checks list, and Mirror Coat I have no opinion on. I'll get to them sometime.

 

[VannAccessible]

Gunk Shot does massive damage to Tapu Fini. I don’t think we want that, do we?

I’d advocate for Steel coverage to hit other Fairies, Brave Bird can also hit Tapu Bulu hard, and Earthquake could hit Magenera and Tapu Koko.

 

[cbrevan]

Alright everyone, after talking to snake_rattler, we both of agree that it's time to start wrapping this thread up. There's enough of a consensus with coverage moves and most of the utility moves that have been brought up to start approving sets and moves. We went ahead and edited some of the posted sets based on feedback from ourselves and the thread, and included them in this post. Some of the sets, which are all idenifted in my comments, are under consideration for approval, and if they receive no further feedback I'll approve them by the end of the weekened. As always, further feedback on the sets in the thread and this post will be appreciated.

Name: Laser Focus
Move 1: Laser Focus
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs
Ability: Comatose
Item: Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Psychium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Laser Focus didn't see much discussion, and certainly not enough to prove it's detrimental to the concept. The only notable change we made was to change Dragon Claw from Dual Chop, as it's honestly just the more consistent option and the power difference isn't very notable. If there's no objection to this set, I think it's good enough to be approved.

Name: Offensive Utility
Move 1: Toxic Spikes / Fairy Lock / Heal Block / Toxic
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Dragon Claw / Outrage / Ice Punch
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge / Brave Bird
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Psychium Z / Dragonium Z / Flynium Z / Life Orb / Eject Button
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

One of the trends we noticed throughout the thread were that multiple sets seemed to follow the format STAB moves + coverage + utility option. Instead of approving each of those sets individually, we'd like to combine them into an offensive utility set. There were variations in coverage and Z crystals among the sets, but honestly there's a strong argument for any combination of coverage moves and items to target whatever Pokemon we wish. I admit it's not as clean as I would like, but I think it's effective in showing how flexible the CAP's options will be. Also, this is another set I'd like to approve if no one has issues with it.

Name: Shadow Bone AOA
Move 1: Shadow Bone
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Anchor Shot / Brave Bird / Stone Edge / Ice Punch
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Life Orb / Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

This is one of the set's I'm wary of because of how unneeded Shadow Bone feels for this Pokemon. I like the argument behind it, in that it's an attempt to create a viable non-trapping set, but it would be easy to just substitute Anchor Shot in as a coverage move to help break past Clefable and other Fairies, in which case Shadow Bone loses's its purpose in creating a non-trapping set, and is simply a harder hitting Spirit Shackle that will 20% of the time make us harder to check and counter properly. With all that in mind, I'm leaning towards disallowing Shadow Bone for being unnecessarily powerful.

Name: SubToxic
Move 1: Spirit Shackle / Anchor Shot / Infestation
Move 2: Substitute / Protect
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Phantom Force / Pain Split
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Nature: Careful

This set is about as defensive as I'm willing to allow this CAP. The big question for me is Pain Split; I still don't recall a truly convincing argument to allow it, and it does provide the CAP with a situational, but powerful recovery. I'm leaning towards approving the set with Pain Split excepted if no further support for the move is shown.

Name: Heal Block
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Icicle Crash / Outrage
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Psychium Z / Figy Berry / Dragonium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 152 SpDNature: Adamant

In my earlier post I expressed support for this set. There were some concerns with Heal Block letting us break down some of our checks, but even with Heal Block we should lose a damage race with them anyways. As for the other offensive Heal Block set posted by G-luke, I felt it was best to simply merge it into the offensive utility set above. If there's no further feedback on this set, I'll approve as is.

 

[david0895]

Name: Shadow Bone AOA
Move 1: Shadow Bone
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Anchor Shot / Brave Bird / Stone Edge / Ice Punch
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Life Orb / Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

This is one of the set's I'm wary of because of how unneeded Shadow Bone feels for this Pokemon. I like the argument behind it, in that it's an attempt to create a viable non-trapping set, but it would be easy to just substitute Anchor Shot in as a coverage move to help break past Clefable and other Fairies, in which case Shadow Bone loses's its purpose in creating a non-trapping set, and is simply a harder hitting Spirit Shackle that will 20% of the time make us harder to check and counter properly. With all that in mind, I'm leaning towards disallowing Shadow Bone for being unnecessarily powerful.

The problem of this set is that despite the removal of Spirit Shackle, we can easily add another trapping move like Anchor Shot or Infestation, bypassing it's initial purpose

Alright everyone, after talking to snake_rattler, we both of agree that it's time to start wrapping this thread up. There's enough of a consensus with coverage moves and most of the utility moves that have been brought up to start approving sets and moves. We went ahead and edited some of the posted sets based on feedback from ourselves and the thread, and included them in this post. Some of the sets, which are all idenifted in my comments, are under consideration for approval, and if they receive no further feedback I'll approve them by the end of the weekened. As always, further feedback on the sets in the thread and this post will be appreciated.

Name: Laser Focus
Move 1: Laser Focus
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs
Ability: Comatose
Item: Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Psychium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This set easily stops the counters that don't have a strong recovery move:
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 289-342 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 306-360 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 313-369 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Yahooboo]

The problem of this set is that despite the removal of Spirit Shackle, we can easily add another trapping move like Anchor Shot or Infestation, bypassing it's initial purpose

This set easily stops the counters that don't have a strong recovery move:
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 289-342 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 306-360 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 313-369 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

remember it takes 2 turns to do that so fini can moonblast away and celes can attack and protect
i admit that it might be problem though

 

[david0895]

remember it takes 2 turns to do that so fini can moonblast away and celes can attack and protect
i admit that it might be problem though

Fini loses because it's slower and Celesteela loses because Laser Focus can be spammed.
Also they all take prior damage from Spirit Shackle in the turn they come in