CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 8 - Counters Discussion

[beej]

This thread is similar to the concept assessment thread, in that we're not going to be voting or deciding on anything here, but we'll instead try to come to a consensus on what we want this Pokemon to be incapable of handling (which would be reflected in the later move discussions).

The actual definition of a counter is something that can switch into any one of the common movesets a specific threat runs, and become a threat immediately. For example, Heatran is a counter to Skarmory, because Skarmory can't really do anything to it while Heatran can hit Skarmory with its Fire STAB. A "check" is a Pokemon that can switch into one or more of a Pokemon's common attacks and force it out. For example, Latias is a check to Salamence, because it can switch into Fire/Ground/Fighing attacks and threaten an OHKO with its Dragon STAB. However, it can't switch into one of Salamence's Dragon attacks, and if it Dragon Dances on the switch, it will be outrun and OHKOed. Counters, checks, and anything in between for CAP10 are grounds for discussion here.

Here is our Pokemon:

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Ability: Trace
Ability: Magic Guard

Important: I'm very aware that the concept of a utility counter, something that can be customized to deal with virtually anything, is something that's difficult to customize "counters" to. However, it is very important to discuss the extent to which we want this Pokemon to be dominating what it switches into and make sure that it doesn't cover too many threats at a time. In addition, walls are not Pokemon to be countered, but broken, and I'm pretty sure we're all agreed on the fact that this is not supposed to be a wall breaker. So bringing up defensive counters is a valid way to discuss this as well.

Rules:

• My definitions of counter/check are the ones you will be following. This is very simple, but important. A lot of people mix up check and counter on a regular basis, and it's important to reference the definitions in the OU to make sure that you aren't confusing people, especially me.

• No threadhogging. This is an open forum for discussion, and it's REALLY annoying when this kind of thing becomes a back-and-forth between a few users. I understand this can be a bit tough when the thread lasts for a while, so I'll be sure to not let this drag.

• No poll jumping. This actually isn't as big of a deal at this point, considering we only need to work on the movepools at this point, but I would appreciate it if you didn't reference entire movepools in your posts. It's okay to talk about this Pokemon not getting a particular type of move if we want a certain Pokemon to be able to check/counter it.

• Don't get hung up on one threat. Like all discussions, this ought to remain fresh throughout the time it's up. One particular scenario/threat/etc should not be dominating the discussion for a long time, so I urge you to keep bringing up new points consistently.

• Shut up with the bandwagoning. In pretty much any discussion, this one being no exception, you are trying to convince me of your points. I don't care if you agree with a user and want to express it by saying "I agree with this user for the reasons they stated". Post if you have something new to express.

As always, happy discussing!

 

[HD]

Going with Beej's definition of a counter, I have a few Pokemon that substantially threaten CaP10. One of the top Pokemon to watch out for is Swampert - good HP and Special Defense, immunity to Electric, nuetrality to Water and STAB SE EQ basically means CaP10 will have to run HP Grass to beat it. However, I believe another Water/Ground Pokemon will be the best CaP10 counter. Quagsire boasts everything Swampert has, with the addition of being healed by Water moves via Water Absorb. Abomasnow is also a viable counter, having a 2x resist to Water and a 2x resist to Electric, as well as boasting STAB Wood Hammer/Grass Knot/Leaf Storm. If you do not care for Swampert and Quagsire, Lanturn is also a semi-viable option, being healed by CaP10's Electric moves via Volt Absorb and resisting CaP10's Water moves.

As for checks, Tyranitar seems to be the one that came to my mind first. The Special Defense boost from Sandstorm lets him soak up CaP10's hits better. Celebi is also a viable check, since CaP10 needs heavy investment and LO to 2HKO the standard Celebi with Ice Beam. In fact, most Grass types, outside of those who are 4x weak to Ice Beam, will check CaP10. Abomasnow, Celebi, Venusaur, etc. I'll edit this post when more comes to mind, but I think I covered all of them.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Any of the OU grass types should be of concern. Celebi, Shaymin, Roserade, and the rare Abomasnow (who is also neutral to Ice) immediately come to mind as powerful Pokemon to use against CAP10. It requires a ton of investment for CAP10 to 2HKO Celebi or Shaymin with Ice Beam, so they're going to be prominent responses to CAP10.

Furthermore powerful Ground-types will be threatening CAP10 a lot if they can get in on a lured Electric attack. Mamoswine, despite having a difficult time switching in, is going to OHKO CAP10 with its Earthquake. Swampert and Quagsire jump to mind as special cases, being neutral to and healing from Water-type attacks respectively - both still immune to the Electric attacks. Lanturn, as mentioned by HD, is also a potent threat, being healed by the Electric attacks and resisting both Ice and Water attacks.

I think this is a good list of checks to CAP10, and are diverse enough in their distribution to not let CAP10 overwhelm the metagame.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

It's kinda hard to figure out what can actually check and/or counter CAP10 without something to go by via some moves would would think it would commonly use and/or movesets. Just how many checks and/or counter should a Pokemon have anyway?

Going with Beej's definition of a counter, I have a few Pokemon that substantially threaten CaP10. One of the top Pokemon to watch out for is Swampert - good HP and Special Defense, immunity to Electric, nuetrality to Water and STAB SE EQ basically means CaP10 will have to run HP Grass to beat it.

LO Hydro Pump from a 252 SpA CAP can 2HKO Swampert with SR support. Grass Knot is near 100% KO under that same CAP10. Other than those two moves which aren't even guaranteed of it having, Swampert makes a pretty good check to me.

Abomasnow is also a viable counter, having a 2x resist to Water and a 2x resist to Electric, as well as boasting STAB Wood Hammer/Grass Knot/Leaf Storm.

Minor nitpick but Grass/Ice is two times resisted to Water, not four.

 

[Zystral]

A whole bunch of shaky checks here;
- Modest Sceptile with Specs always OHKOes +SpD, 252 HP / 252 SpD CAP10 with Leaf Storm, but it was to watch out for 88.97% - 105.34% from Ice Beam.
- In a similar Boat, Mamoswine can OHKO with Earthquake, but a Life Orbed Surf OHKOes.
- Scarfed Roserade is looking at 80.15% - 94.66% from Ice Beam, which is a 45% chance of OHKO with Leaf Storm.

You've also got access to Torterra, who is immune to Thunderbolt and packs a very powerful Wood Hammer to hit CAP10 with, but then again, if there's Ice Beam that's a guaranteed OHKO.

Celebi is notable, as despite being able to smack CAP10 right off the bat, it can easily 2HKO with Energy Ball, while CAP10 requires almost fully offensive investment to stop Celebi. Celebi can also set up Swords Dance on CAP10 and use a very powerful Seed Bomb.
Ludicolo is resistant to Water and neutral to Electric as well as Ice, so that's CAP10's three main options slightly neutered. A base 80 HP / 100 SpD isn't too bad either, and Ludicolo can always use Energy Ball or Leaf Storm. It also has Swift Swim to outspeed CAP10, but CAP10 itself also benefits from rain, so be wary.

Now this is interesting. Here is an Adamant, 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom, up against a Neutral nature, 252 SpA Life Orbed CAP10:
Thunderbolt: 28.63% - 33.97%
Surf: 86.26% - 101.91%
Ice Beam: 57.25% - 67.94%
Surf has less than an 10% chance to OHKO without Stealth Rock, so personally, I would be willing to risk switching Breloom in on a revenge kill, Spore and then Seed Bombing 252 Def CAP10 for 62.61% - 74.32%
Worthwhile check? Perhaps.

 

[Korski]

Mamoswine probably shouldn't be switching into CAP unless it's Scarfed, as it's weak to CAP's Water STAB and will be KO'd with minimal investment and pretty much always if CAP has LO (no EVs LO Surf: 95.3% - 113% ; no EVs Surf: 73.7% - 87%). Even so, Jolly Mamoswine's EQ does 71.3% - 83.9% to 12 HP / 252 Def CAP 10 (Adamant: 78% - 91.9%) so it will need prior damage to score a OHKO on a healthy defensive CAP 10 @ Leftovers if it is in fact Scarfed.

As CAP may very likely be investing in one defense at the complete expense of the other, powerful attacks from the opposite side of the spectrum will be useful for checking it. Choice Specs Latias will do 78% - 91.9% to 12 HP / 0 SpD CAP 10 with Draco Meteor, while even 252 SpA EV, LO CAP can manage only 52.3% - 62.3% with Ice Beam on top of being outsped. On top of that, CM Latias with Recover is more or less free to set up on any CAP 10 that doesn't pack Toxic/Thunder Wave. Sub/CM Latias takes extra precaution against this threat.

Another CM user that can more or less freely set up on CAP is Jirachi, who only fears Flamethrower, taking 49.5% - 58.4% from 252 EVs, LO CAP 10, 38.1% - 45% from no investment, LO CAP 10, or 29.2% - 34.7% from no investment Leftovers CAP. While it doesn't outspeed CAP and is, as such, more vulnerable to SE attacks and status, Jirachi has a fairly good chance of setting up on a CAP that is designed to counter more physical threats.

Stall also has a good chance of giving CAP problems. Even though Magic Guard makes it immune to their entry hazards, its lack of power means opposing stall teams should not have too much trouble walling or setting up on it if it lacks Taunt.

EDIT: ZystraL, those Breloom calcs are wrong. First of all, Thunderbolt and Surf are both resisted by Breloom and both do 43.5% - 51.1% from that spread. Ice Beam / Flamethrower will do 87.8% - 103.8% with no investment and a LO, 116% - 136.6% at 252 EVs, neutral nature, and LO, so Breloom doesn't really stand a chance.

 

[Lightsabre]

I don't think that Tyranitar should be a check, since it's one of the offensive type pokemon that we want this guy to counter, but that really all depends on the movepool, so I'll let that one slide.

Latias with CS grass knot/energy ball could also become a check, also bulkier Calm Minders may be able to set up on it. Being able to switch in on both STAB moves is great, and only a 2x weakness to ice beam helps a lot.

Reaching down a tier, Ludicolo could make a good check/counter(depending on movepool). 4x resistant to one STAB and not weak to the other, SE STAB and you've got yourself something I would assume. If CAP 10 is using trace then Ludi can also leech seed stall it.

that's about as many as I can think of off the top of my head(that haven't been mentioned yet)

 

[Fuzznip]

Counters

Blissey: Blissey is going to be walling this thing all day without using Toxic or something else that can wear her HP down. CAP 10 just isn't strong enough, even on the physical side, to be able to do anything sufficient against it. Even max Attack Adamant Superpower is unable to OHKO Blissey, as it does 64.54% - 76.10% to 24 HP / 252 Def Calm Blissey. Blissey can then cripple CAP 10 with Toxic (if it uses Trace as an ability) or wear it down with Seismic Toss.

Snorlax: Snorlax will pose a similar problem to Blissey, except it is less bulky on the special side. However, it has access to Earthquake and Body Slam, two moves that CAP 10 will hate. Also, CAP 10's Superpower is actually going to be doing less to Snorlax than Blissey, ones that use 252 HP, anyway. Since Snorlax is slower, Earthquake will deal brutal damage.

Swampert: This guy will be a huge pain for CAP 10 to handle, namely because it can switch right into CAP 10's Electric move and return with a powerful Earthquake. It's also pretty bulky so if CAP 10 doesn't invest heavily in its offenses, it won't be doing much.

Celebi: Resistance to both of CAP 10's STAB moves, excellent overall defenses, and access to Grass Knot/Leaf Storm/Recover will keep Celebi as a constant threat to CAP 10. Ice Beam, without heavy Special Attack investment, won't even 2HKO.

Latias: Latias is probably more of a counter than a check to CAP 10. With its massive Special Defense, Ice Beam won't be dealing enough damage to threaten it. That means Latias can simply set up multiple Calm Minds as CAP 10 struggles to defeat it, and Recover/Refresh and damage/status taken.

Dusknoir: I don't see how CAP 10 is able to defeat Dusknoir singlehandedly. Its massive defenses will help it literally shrug off most attacks CAP 10 will use against it. Dusknoir can then burn CAP 10 with Will-O-Wisp (if it uses Trace as the ability) or just bring it down with repeated Earthquakes. It needs to watch out for status, but Dusknoir can always run a RestTalk set.

Checks

Dugtrio: It can switch into CAP 10's STAB Electric move and revenge kill it with a Choice Banded Earthquake.

Tyranitar: Great Special Defense in the sand and access to Earthquake will brew some trouble; however, Tyranitar won't be able to constantly switch into CAP 10's Surfs, as they will kill it sooner or later.

Roserade: Roserade's high Special Defense helps it switch into CAP 10's STAB moves, Sleep Powder it, and set up Toxic Spikes or just outright killing it with Leaf Storm. It just needs to worry about switching into a potential Ice Beam.

Breloom: It can switch right into CAP 10's STAB attacks without much worry, due to Poison Heal restoring a lot of the lost health. It can then proceed to cripple CAP 10 with Spore, set up Substitute, and fire off Focus Punches and Seed Bombs. Ice Beam is a big problem though, and since CAP 10 is faster, it will be KOed.


That's all I have now.

 

[Objection]

If CAP10 runs max special attack and Modest nature, even without any items its Surf has about 2.5% chance of OHKOing 4 HP/0 Sp. Def Tyranitar after Stealth Rock, even with Tyranitar's special defence boost, so I don't think Tyranitar's going to be much good against CAP10 beyond revenge kills.

 

[HD]

If CAP10 runs max special attack and Modest nature, even without any items its Surf has about 2.5% chance of OHKOing 4 HP/0 Sp. Def Tyranitar after Stealth Rock, even with Tyranitar's special defence boost, so I don't think Tyranitar's going to be much good against CAP10 beyond revenge kills.

I should of made my post cleaer, I meant the bulkier TTar sets. CurseTar, RestTar, etc. I'll edit this post with calcs shortly.

37.1% - 43.6% - That's what CaP10's LO Timid 252 Spatt EVs does to the Standard CurseTar (252 HP / 216 Def) in Sand. CaP10 is pretty damn strong, but CurseTar is a pretty good check.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

If CAP10 runs max special attack and Modest nature, even without any items its Surf has about 2.5% chance of OHKOing 4 HP/0 Sp. Def Tyranitar after Stealth Rock, even with Tyranitar's special defence boost, so I don't think Tyranitar's going to be much good against CAP10 beyond revenge kills.

Modest Surf vs 4/0 HP/SpD T-tar: 49.1% - 58.5%

Possibly 2HKO with SR. And for kicks here is what an non LO Hyrdo Pump and Aura Sphere would do to that same T-tar

Modest Aura Sphere vs T-tar: 63.2% - 74.9%
Modest Hydro Pump vs T-tar: 62% - 73.7%

 

[Objection]

That's odd. When I do the calculations for Surf I get 74.27% - 87.72%. Just to double check, max special attack modest CAP10 reaches a special attack stat of 291, and a 4 HP/0 Sp. Def Tyranitar has 342 HP and 236 special defence.

I'm using this damage calculator by the way. I even accounted for the Sandstorm boost.

EDIT: Turns out I was reading the wrong results - that damage calculator displayed the results out of Sandstorm in normal font and the results in Sandstorm in smaller font that I missed.

 

[zarator]

First of all, we can't have a list of Pokémon that will counter CAP10 no matter what, at this point of the process. Bear in mind that CAP10 has only 2 weaknesses: Ground (which can be "neutered" by a swift Magnet Rise) and Grass (which may be greatly softened if we make CAP10 light, seeing how Grass Knot is the most common Grass move in OU). Just to make an example of how even supposed "hard counters" can be beaten with the right move (I'll borrow Fuzznip list since it seems the most comprehensive so far).

Blissey - Close Combat, Sub Toxic (the latter one not so effective, but still usable)
Snorlax - again, Close Combat
Swampert - Grass Knot
Celebi - Megahorn, X-Scissor, U-turn, Bug Buzz
Breloom - Aerial Ace (lol)
Latias - Megahorn, Crunch
Dusknoir - Sub + Magnet Rise

Now, you could probably say that some of these moves won't probably be in CAP10's movepool (Close Combat being the most apparent example). But this should only emphasize how much we should talk of what we want to counter CAP10 rather than what will counter CAP10 regardless of the movepool.

Now, which would be the mindset to follow in determining which Pokémon would be nice to have as counters and which wouldn't? This is a delicate part, because, as others mentioned, CAP10's concept is "Utility Counter", and so, making some Pokémon able to hard counter it sort of beats the concept to a certain extent. But we can salvage the concept while keeping CAP10 balanced (i.e. uncounterable) if we remember two valuable points:

• CAP10 will be used mainly to check offensive Pokémon, rather than defensive ones. Most defensive Pokémon like Blissey, Celebi, Skarmory, Swampert and so on, already have dedicated wallbreakers that can take care of them and their partner wall too. We should give priority to making CAP10 a check to Salamence and (offensive) Gyarados rather than Blissey and Skarmory
• CAP10 won't be used to check Pokémon which are already countered better by other Pokémon. No matter which movepool it gets, CAP10 won't ever check Grass mons better than Heatran - they share a ground weakness, and Heatran resists Grass X4 while CAP10 is hit supereffectively. This holds true for other Pokémon too, like Lucario and Gliscor.

So, once we realize that CAP10 will be seldomly employed to check the above categories of Pokémon (even if it had the movepool), we can easily see that those same categories are the ones from which we should pick our counters. For this reason, for example, I'd advocate Blissey as a reliable check (which means we shouldnt give CAP10 Close Combat/Superpower/Focus Punch and we should think very hard before giving it Magic Guard + Volt Tackle), along with Celebi, Swampert etc. (basically the same list of Fuzznip, I know, but I wanted to make apparent the reasoning behind)

 

[toshimelonhead]

Agreed that without a set movepool, it's hard to know what exactly what would be a potent counter to CAP 10. Here are my ideas:

-Shaymin and Celebi are the two best Grass-type counters, as Ice Beam does not 2HKO them assuming Timid Nature and max special attack on CAP 10. Sceptile, Venusaur, Roserade, and others can check it by OHKOing with Leaf Storm, but only Sceptile can switch in successfully as long as it's over 330 speed (which is what I'm assuming most people will run to outspeed positive base 100s). Breloom if it doesn't switch into an Ice Beam is a good check.

-Lanturn with Volt Absorb, as mentioned before, can hard counter CAP 10, although with Trace that matchup is a draw.

-A Timid Latias can outspeed CAP 10 and do 89% - 104.9% with Draco Meteor (with EVs of 40 HP, 252 SAtk, and 216 Spe), but CAP 10 can likely Thunder Wave on the switch.

-Blissey has no way of beating this thing if it has Magic Guard and Substitute. CAP 10 might be walled by it, but Seismic Toss won't break its subs, nor will Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or even Thunderbolt.

-Swampert walls this thing for sure, as mentioned before. Even max powered HP Grass won't KO the Mixpert lead set.

-Tyranitar, especially Bulky versions, are checks.

 

[Anti-H]

Okay, so if CAP10 is designed to counter certain offensive threats, just as a consequence given it's typing and the insane movepool it's going to need given the versatility it needs. If this is threadjumping, I apologize, but we need to know what our main threats are and how it will get around them. Once that happens, the counters/checks to each set will reveal themselves.

At this point though, going off current typing is the best we can do, so Fuzznip and Rising are pretty bang on.

 

[Raikaria]

Pokemon that will probobly be hard counters unless the set is customised to overcome them:

Lanturn: I'm serious. Volt Absorb renders CAP10's Electric attacks useless. It's water typing and massive HP will render CAP10's physical attacks useless. Meanwhile, Lanturn's own Electric attacks hit neutral [Provided it switched in on CAP10, which is what a counter should do], and it has all that nasty status to use, Thunder Wave comes to mind. Unless CAP10 is getting Earthquake, Lanturn is going to be a counter to most sets... however hard that is to belive.

Latias: As mentioned before, Latias dosen't take a large amount of damage from Ice Beam, and I really don't forsee CAP10 getting Outrage or Draco Meteor to slam Latias with. The Latias would probobly need to be a defensive set to defeat CAP10 for sure [As CAP10 may also be sp.def, which may mean it can outlast and offensive Latias]

Dugtrio: Electric-attacks are free switch ins, and Dugtrio strikes with Earthquake. I think it needs CB to OHKO, but it outspeeds CAP10 anyway. Revenge killing is also possible. ScarfedCAP10 will be an issue.

Blissey: If Superpower dosen't beat Blissey, CAP10 is not going to beat Blissey. Unless we somehow give it Close Combat, which will be hard to justify.

That said... Choice Band Superpower might OHKO with rocks down, if Life Orbed Superpower delt about 70%.

Celebi: Shrugs off both of CAP10's STAB attacks, and can either cripple it, stall it, or Leaf Storm/Grass Knot it. I doubt CAP10 is ever going to be able to defeat Celebi.

Snorlax: I don't see any way CAP10 can take this guy down, his higher physical defense makes even the physical path less attractive, and Rest makes Toxic unlikly.

Crocune: Thunderbolt is not going to kill CroCune. It puts up a Calm Mind, Rests, and... well... you know how CroCune works. Physical sets also lack the power to beat it... barring MAYBE Volt Tackle. I'm shocked I'm the first to say that.

Checks to CAP10:
Tyranitar: Probobly the Number 1 Check to CAP10. However, physical sets might cause a few problems, especially if they happen to be Scarfed. Scarftar won;t be able to switch in and beat CAP10 in that case.

Any Grass Viable Grass Type: If CAP10 lacks Ice Beam, any viable Grass type, barring Torterra, can beat it. Breloom is notable in particular, but due to CAP10 being faster, and the possibility of Ice Beam, it's only a Check. Torterra is the exception, due to being Neutral to Surf.

Swampert: Standard Swamperts run the risk of a 2HKO from Hydro Pump, which is why I'm listing it as a Check, not a counter, because Hydro Pump is probobly going to be semi-common, and almost certain to get onto the movepool.

 

[FlareBlitz]

A lot of counters would depend on what we decide on for its movepool; in fact, I'm not sure why we would have a counters discussion without first establishing its movepool. For instance, things like Superpower, Volt Tackle, even Cross Chop/Sky Uppercut would make Blissey a non-issue (especially given the free Life Orb boost Magic Guard users are capable of abusing). Celebi would die to Bug Buzz/Signal Beam, Swampert to Grass Knot, Tyranitar to Superpower (and some variants to Aura Sphere), Duggy will die to Aqua Jet, Latias will die to Crunch/Dragon Claw, Rotom/Dusknoir will die to Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse...I could go on, but I think we all get the point.

None of the above moves are unreasonable; in fact, some (such as Superpower) would likely be necessary for CAP10 to perform its job as a Utility Counter. Simply put, this has the stats, typing, and ability to beat pretty much everything in the metagame given the right movepool, so before we establish counters I really think we should establish what its movepool is going to be like.

That said, as far as STABs go, bulky grass and dragon types are the best bet to counter CAP10. Shaymin deserves mention for being able to repeatedly smack it with powerful Seed Flares while having the bulky to survive Ice Beam. Celebi is on a similar boat. Note, however, that both are slower than CAP10, and neither can take two LO-boosted Ice Beams. I don't even think offensive variants can take LO Surf/Thunderbolt -> LO Ice Beam. Latias is resistant to both of CAP10's STABs and outspeeds it. It's not going to enjoy taking Ice Beams on the switch (it'll live though) and it will definitely not like Dragon Claw or Crunch. But again, all of these are very tentative, given the possibilities for CAP10's movepool.

 

[Objection]

Nice idea FlareBlitz, but how are we going to get Superpower, Bug Buzz, Grass Knot, Aqua Jet, Crunch and Dark Pulse on the same moveset? And if CAP10 ran four of those moves, that would just make Gyarados a counter owing to the absence of any Electric-type move (Electric-type pokemon countered by Gyarados? LOL)

 

[Banryu]

I'm gonna mostly stay out of here as the math stuff isn't my area of expertise, but I just wanted to point out that Tyranitar shouldn't really be considered too much of a counter or even a check. =\ Didn't we EV CAP-10 to be able to bring the pain on the physical side, too? Maybe someone wants to do some calcs for Adamant Waterfalls against Tyranitar coming from CAP-10... I see most people in here assuming CAP-10 runs Surf, when Waterfall is just as likely / viable coming from it.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Nice idea FlareBlitz, but how are we going to get Superpower, Bug Buzz, Grass Knot, Aqua Jet, Crunch and Dark Pulse on the same moveset? And if CAP10 ran four of those moves, that would just make Gyarados a counter owing to the absence of any Electric-type move (Electric-type pokemon countered by Gyarados? LOL)

Why would we want to run them all on the same moveset? Surely the point of the utility counter is not to counter everything. There's no need to be bothered by things that don't concern us.

On another note, to be quite honest CAP10 isn't really hitting anything that hard unless it's either a STAB or super effective attack, as we all know. So most walls should make decent counters or checks, especially if, like Blissey, they can take a couple of hits. On the subject of Dusknoir, I can easily see it having a big impact on CAP10 if we don't give it Crunch or something. The killer, I think, is Pain Split - with CAP10's high HP and Dusknoir's low HP, the ghost can easily leech away for as long as necessary. It can't really do much back though.

That's all I have to say for now. Much of this countering depends solely on movepool and a LOT on chance and other factors, so I don't see how much more there is to discuss here.

 

[Seizen]

Just a nitpick at some of the points made, but CAP10 will be able to run physical moves properly as well as special moves. So Blissey isn't a major counter, as I can easily see CAP10 using STAB Waterfall and doing a lot of damage.

Plus, I think aragornbird's concept won, which means that you cannot argue that there is no way for it to use the Element-punches. Granted, it might not get them, but you can't say it cannot either.

 

[Shock Trooper]

I wouldn't judge Breloom as a check as of yet. Even with no Special Attack Investment and a Bold Nature (Leftovers as the item), CAP10 is able to deal nearly 77% max to Breloom with Ice Beam. If Magic Guard and Life Orb are used, CAP10 can run 144 Special Attack EVs and still be able to get Breloom with Ice Beam in one shot with Stealth Rock up, doing 98.9-116.5%.

 

[ShravanP]

Unless we give CAP10 some sort of move to counter enemy stat ups, Crocune, Curselax, and CM Jirachi will give this thing hell. Once they set up one boost, CAP10 won't really be able to do anything to them. That is, of course, if we don't give it a move like Haze, Roar/WW, or Heart Swap.

In my opinion, CAP10 SHOULD be equipped to counter these stat-uppers, so I don't think we should include the above pokemon on the counter list. So far, we already have Celebi, Roserade, Shaymin, Quagsire, Swampert, Lanturn, and Latias as potential hard counters for this. Adding on Crocune, Curselax, and CM Jirachi sort of extends the list too far IMO.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Unless we give CAP10 some sort of move to counter enemy stat ups, Crocune, Curselax, and CM Jirachi will give this thing hell. Once they set up one boost, CAP10 won't really be able to do anything to them. That is, of course, if we don't give it a move like Haze, Roar/WW, or Heart Swap.

Don't forget Taunt, though you still ain't getting through Pokemon like Curselax anytime soon.

In my opinion, CAP10 SHOULD be equipped to counter these stat-uppers, so I don't think we should include the above pokemon on the counter list for this. So far, we already have Celebi, Roserade, Shaymin, Quagsire, Swampert, Lanturn, and Latias as potential hard counters for this. Adding on Crocune, Curselax, and CM Jirachi sort of extends the list too far IMO.

Swampert, Quagsire, and Roserade would be checks rather than hard counters. Was going to add Latias into that statement, but Latias impressive special defense and Recover make it a formidable Pokemon for CAP10.

 

[Anachronism]

For the record, even Adamant Max Atk Waterfalls dont' do that much to 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey.

293 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (80 Base Power): 211 - 250 (32.41% - 38.40%)

This is obviously even worse if you are using Jolly and they have Bold or HP EVs

With Life Orb:
293 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (80 Base Power): 276 - 325 (42.40% - 49.92%)

So, Adamant LO CAP 10 only has a ~30% chance of koing the weakest Blissey one commonly finds WITH SR. However, in a sandstorm the odds go up substantially to upwards of 90%. However, Blisseys often run bold with HP EVs, and CAP 10 will often run a positive speed nature.

EDIT: Also, I would like to mention that the same Adamant LO CAP 10 does this much to 4/0 Tyranitar:

293 Atk vs 256 Def & 342 HP (80 Base Power): 254 - 302 (74.27% - 88.30%)

2.5% of KO after SR