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- Thread starter LuckOverSkill
- Start date
The three basic sturctures: HO, Rain, and Sand have a sort of rock-paper-scissors dynamic. As peng outlined in his post, Sand's bulk (sand immunes) and ability to replace the weather make it good against most rain structures. HO is good against Sand, because setup mons (esp. Cloyster and Volc) tear through the mons that are going to be consistent against rain. And rain out-offenses HO: scarf keld + Lati run through most common d-nite, scizor, breloom, chomp/terrak, cloy.
This is a dynamic that is unique to BW that is uncommon in other tiers. It's also why despite the numerous options available, there are at least some common similarities between teams. In other OU metagames, the broad archetypes have a variety of styles that can yield great success.*** In Gen 5, the threat level and lack of defensive counterplay force notably strict archetypes are needed to ensure success. And deviating from those archetypes often puts you at a broad disadvantage against one style or another.
***Two points to note:
1. While some archetypes are actually unviable (a hypothetical archetype titled '6 NU mons'), some archetypes are simply harder for some players to pilot than others, and this results in some more opinionated players referring to archetypes of 'terrible,' 'bad,' or 'unviable.'
2. Gen5 does has a lot of distinct teams of mons, but the three basic archetypes are sand, rain, and HO. It's debatable as to whether more specific styles (e.g. magic guard sand) count as archetypes. I personally don't think so, because the fundamental differences in sand playstyles is not as drastic as other different archetypes (e.g. In ADV, the styles of magdol, Physical Offense, Special Offense, TSS, and mixed offense are drastically different, and could not be grouped into the same playstyle no matter how you define them).
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I would have agreed with you if you said this before the gems ban, but with gems being banned now, I am not so sure.
Sand in general has really diversified a lot. Yeah there are structures that struggle against some HO teams but at the same time many of those teams have successfully re-integrating stuff like Keldeo and Heatran to improve those matchups. Even Terrakion had it's viability revisited when people eventually realized just how effective it really was in terms of checking Volcarona and Dragonite (and with Gems out of the picture it's defensive utility is finally showing it's worth now), with it's MUs against Breloom and Scizor being made up for with it's teammates in Rotom and SubPass Bi. It's gotten to a point where even weirder sands like Hippowdon and Clefable have really taken advantage of the decreased power creep in the recent BW Invitational.
The real MU spread seems to look something more like this:
Psyspikes beats Rain but can sometimes struggle against Wless HOs and Fat Sands
Terrak Sands generally have a good MU against Wless HOs and Rain Teams, but can struggle against Fat Sands, especially Reuni Builds.
Hippo Sands do well against Rain and do well against Psyspikes, but struggle against Wless HOs.
Clef Sands do well against Fat Sands, but struggle against other playstyles, especially HOs and Gyara Rain Teams.
Rain is generally great against Wless HOs but aren't always safe if they don't have Keldeo.
Wless is... good against most Sands except for Fast Sands with Zam or Keld + Rak and generally need to go out of their way for good counterplay against Rain by using stuff like Abomasnow.
There is also stuff like Sun and DragMag that don't see as much usage but are still stuff that need to considered at times.
In general saying that BW is a metagame that's defined by a rock-paper-scissors format is kind of an oversimplifying take. Like yeah, if you look at the metagame at the surface you could conclude that it has three dominant playstyles but once you really get in it's far more nuanced than that.
Sun generally beats rain from preview while being really good against wless offense in exchange for crying vs Sand for the most part, especially drill sands.
DragMag tends to abuse the offense ditto above all. Scarf Mence + Mag tends to give you a literal flow chart vs Volc Sciz Dnite stuff. It's good against specific sands (struggles into tran/terrak but good against lando ferro + psychics and can easily prey on more passive builds depending on the 6 and their sets). It's ok vs rain too but lives and dies by whether you trap ferro. It can beat scarf lati but Scarf Keld is more often than not an L, as is the wless offense way. TBH, it's a style that should get more usage than it's seeing.
I think it's pretty overestimated how favored Rain is into wless offense. If they have Scarf Keld it's obviously a wash, but scarf latios (which is more consistent overall) gives you a more iffy time. 1 wrong turn for either player tends to determine the pendulum, rather than Rain being strictly favored from preview. Leading Loom into lead Politoed for example is a horrible back foot for the rain player.
Generally, Sands with good HO match-ups are a lot more consistent into HO than non-scarf keld rains. Stuff like Balloon Tran or Terrak into offense can be pretty hilarious to watch.
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This is assuming those teams have Chansey + Cresselia, with Chansey covering Volc and Mie while Cress covers Loom, Nite, Chomp, Sciz and Cloy. They also have something like Volc or Sub DD Nite in the back so that they don't completely flub against those teams. Any Sun team that doesn't have Chansey + Cress is bound to have diminishing returns against any other semi-viable playstyle though, let alone Wless, (cough Victini Darm cough).
I feel like Cloyster really played a role in making DragMag a more viable and relevant playstyle in modern BW. Compared to Kyu-B, Cloy comes with a much better MU against Drill, and even then a lot of players that got a lot of mileage out of Cloy + Kyu-B. In fact, I would argue that Dragmag is being respected a lot more than before with weirder shit like Mixed Mence + Slowking and Lucario DragMag being brought in the Invitational.
I have seen viable suns against drill sands in an equal ish matchup though most of the time they do need to sac a mon to achieve a force switch out or revenge kill. However these teams do get wrecked if their opponents gets sub up on mamo or lando
Sorry but which match was Lucaio Dragmag in ? Haven't been watching it too closely
Dice used it in Round 3 against Rewer.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ays-and-usage-statistics.3727261/post-9785562
Vic Darm is not a viable Sun. It's a ladder meme for the most part. Viable Sun is more passive Chansey Cress Spinner x x builds.
Well idk what the fuck else to call it then. Cloyster HO? Feels kind of weird when there are Pokes that are normally on Dragmag appear here.
It doesn’t fit on Smurf HO specifically, but in terms of HO in generally it basically replaces Chomp as a Rocker with Imprison and Boom.
so does only lead , scarf and sub work or does def work too on HO
Defensive are designed for Balance teams for counterplay against offensive grounds. On HOs, your best bet is to out-offense shit.
So, is it just me, or is Cloyster trash? Or is is that only trash players on the ladder use cloyster?
Cloyster is a great mon. It was the 25th most used mon in the BW PL III, 21st used mon in the RoAPL IX and currently the 21st most used mon in Monai's invitiational. It's basically a staple in any competent HO team, just look at the samples and you will see what I mean.
It's also responsible for the King's Rock ban and played a role in Gems being banned too.
If you are going to call a pokemon that was used that much in High-level tours trash, you are going to have to elaborate more than just saying that only low ladder players use it.
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Cloyster is also a staple on many drag mag teams with magnezone removing all/most of the resists with nothing being able to stop it in the end once it shell smashes. It also works very well on screens teams as it basically cannot get ohkoed under screens with its high def and hp. It is so good that many teams specifically choose certain mons to have scarf or specific moves to make sure they dont get swept by volc or cloyster
So I just am running into bad players, makes sense.
This might need a full RMT thread, but I am just spit balling ideas. So literally a decade ago I made this team: https://pokepast.es/6d58b344efd8a2d1
So the idea of this team is you have the dual Regenerator core of Amoongus and Slowbro, plus Pink Blob which is a pain to break. Tyranitar deals with assorted psychic types which otherwise would be a problem and also adds as a win condition vs Starmie and Ghosts blocking rapid spin. Forretress is there... (adds a nice steel type plus spikes). And then Zapdos originally was the unique Pokemon which countered both Venusaur and Scizor.
I had a lot of success with this team on the ladder back in the day, and it seems OK now, but I feel like it ain't really just could be doing better stuff with Venusaur out of the picture now. I still need a solid Scizor answer however.
So I have been messing with this: https://pokepast.es/520f1ec2dfe58210
I did a bit of a role compression with Skarmory, allowing me a better rapid spinner with Starmie. Been trying out Scizor in the same spot as Tyranitar. I might mess with Gliscor for Scizor, but the issue is that leaves me Gyrados weak which I am not really seeing a good answer for.\
It might be the case that the classic AmoonBro core is just not viable anymore, which would be a shame, but I'm trying, its what I best remember playing a decade ago.
This might need a full RMT thread, but I am just spit balling ideas. So literally a decade ago I made this team: https://pokepast.es/6d58b344efd8a2d1
So the idea of this team is you have the dual Regenerator core of Amoongus and Slowbro, plus Pink Blob which is a pain to break. Tyranitar deals with assorted psychic types which otherwise would be a problem and also adds as a win condition vs Starmie and Ghosts blocking rapid spin. Forretress is there... (adds a nice steel type plus spikes). And then Zapdos originally was the unique Pokemon which countered both Venusaur and Scizor.
I had a lot of success with this team on the ladder back in the day, and it seems OK now, but I feel like it ain't really just could be doing better stuff with Venusaur out of the picture now. I still need a solid Scizor answer however.
So I have been messing with this: https://pokepast.es/520f1ec2dfe58210
I did a bit of a role compression with Skarmory, allowing me a better rapid spinner with Starmie. Been trying out Scizor in the same spot as Tyranitar. I might mess with Gliscor for Scizor, but the issue is that leaves me Gyrados weak which I am not really seeing a good answer for.\
It might be the case that the classic AmoonBro core is just not viable anymore, which would be a shame, but I'm trying, its what I best remember playing a decade ago.
Both of these teams autolose to any offense with either Latios or Keldeo. You might not think that at first but all it takes is one game to figure out how dire your situation is.
For Team 1, Blissey can't properly check Latios since it either gets 2HKOed by Psyshock, ruined by Trick or Pursuit-trapped by Tyranitar. Since Tyranitar is Banded, Latios + Alakazam can prove to be a serious problem, especially since Alakazam 1HKOes you with Focus Blast. For Team 2, Banded Scizor hasn't seen any serious usage in recent days as most players now have opted for either Life Orb SD or Choice Scarf.
Amoonguss is usually used to as a Rain answer now, so Specially Defensive sets are far more common. Even then, Keldeo basically ruins Amoonguss with Scald Burns and has to risk getting 3HKOed by Specs Hydro Pump. The 2nd arguably has this problem even worse since you are basically forced to sacrifice a mon every turn in uncontested Rain with the combination of Specs Hydro Pump + Secret Sword.Of course these teams have more problems than that, such as having an extremely bad matchup against Ferrothorn, but those two Pokemon are probably the worst offenders.
The Regenerator Core has really fallen out of favour recently due to the pace of average games being much faster. You could technically make it work in modern BW but it requires a more deft hand in order to make work, so it usually isn't worth it. If you are trying to get back in the metagame, I would recommend using the sample teams first to get a good feel of it or joining the Discord Server for more advice.
My recommendations to perform better in the current meta:
- CB Tyranitar is fine on this type of build, the only thing I'd consider is running a few Speed EVs to make sure you don't get crept by Clefable and Jellicent (Knock Off/Will-of-Wisp would ruin you). Moving the 8 SDef EVs is enough.
- Amoonguss' EVs should focus on Special Defense, you already run a lot of Defense on other mons on your team, and Amoonguss' typing is better suited to tank Special moves. Perhaps see if there's a spread that lets you comfortably tank Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword while keeping up your SDef.
- Forretress without Earthquake can't keep Stealth Rock up vs Excadrill. Gyro Ball on Forretress in general isn't that good I find. You're max Defense + Slowbro so Mamo shouldn't annoy you; Latios you won't strike with Gyro often (if at all); there's the occasional Balloon Terrakion, but with Slowbro and max Defense Forretress you should be fine; Cloyster would be an excellent target to Gyro, but again, Slowbro + sand + Earthquake should suffice. But you can keep Gyro and run it alongside Earthquake by dropping Toxic.
- I'd consider running Paralysis over Toxic as the main status on the team, since that makes CB Tyranitar a menace. Toxic is too slow to deal with offensive threats in most cases, and too many key mons are immune to it. I'd say Stun Spore over Sludge Bomb on Amoonguss and Thunder Wave over Psychic on Slowbro would be the best combination, as the former can paralyse everything, and the latter keeps Grounds away. This would free up a slot on Forretress and Blissey, which opens up things a bit.
- Following the above, I like Hidden Power Ice a lot on Forretress to hit Garchomp and Landorus-Therian. Volt Switch is an option, but then every Ground type completely walls you, and not being able to hit the enemy SR user with your spinner is suboptimal. On the other hand, Volt Switching out of a Reuniclus/Jellicent and getting Tyranitar in safely is great. You might also get a surprise escape on unsuspecting greedy Magnezone users. On the hazards front with those slots opened, you could opt for SR on Blissey and Spikes/Toxic Spikes on Forretress. Or you could run Thunder Wave on Blissey as well, or Wish to keep Tyranitar/Forretress around for the long haul. There's Heal Bell too.
- I would keep Zapdos as is. You might want to recalibrate its EVs, but that's something you find out by playing with the team. If I had to change it blind, I'd run 310 Speed to outspeed all Ground types, but there's no guaranteed superior spread here. Whatever you're comfortable with is fine here.
Things I'm wondering about with my suggested changes:
- Is there a way to have a secondary option vs Reuniclus with this team, and is it needed?
- Are Spikes even good on this team?
- Is Psychic-less Slowbro + Gyro-less Forretress okay vs Cloyster, assuming rocks aren't on the field?
- Zapdos is probably fine with all these grounds running around, but I'd consider Volt Switch over Thunderbolt, probably one of those things that go by personal preference
You'll have to test these out yourself and see what you like the most.
K there are a few things to watch out for, Fighting types with good coverage will screw the team over with meinshao, conk, infernape, keld especially scarf and toxicroak all have enough coverage to take care of more than half of the team as long as they have either set up or have a high attack stat with both ice and fire/ high power fighting moves. Also if you run into a team such as dragmag and they have taken your fortress with magnezone zapdos is not enough of a defensive option if slowbro dies somehow.
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Zapdos: 349-412 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Zapdos: 348-411 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Zapdos: 390-460 (101.8 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
so i would suggest a different defensive option than Zapdos if amoong is made sp def especially as sandstorm is likely going to be active along with stealth rock maybe or a fast speedy pokemon like latios or scarfed mons.