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Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

Man...it's been years since I've ever been in a BW discussion thread.

Anyways, on to some discussion points for ranking changes.

I believe I nominated this well over a year ago but I might as well bring it up again since it's relevant now. I think Gardevoir is easily one of the best Psychic-types in NU right now, especially post Jynx+Scolipede meta. It should definitely be up there in somewhere in the A Ranks, probably in Mid A or High A (kind of leaning towards the latter). It is an incredibly versatile threat and there is so much this thing can do well. It is the strongest offensive Psychic-type available and with a wide movepool of options that allow it to make use of excellent coverage and power, and in addition to having support moves like Will-O-Wisp and coverage which allows it to screw around with some of its potential answers such as Skuntank and Mandibuzz, as it can burn both with Will-O-Wisp and possibly use Thunderbolt to hit Mandibuzz decently hard. It has strong coverage options and has all the coverage it needs to hit many things hard, and its Speed is also alright by NU standards. It also has a lot of cool ways to work like Calm Mind, Will-O-Wisp, and more. Definitely a top mon imo and deserves to be in the higher A Ranks because it's rightfully top tier.

Also looking at recent trends I looked at, Garbodor seems to be used a lot. Well, 5th Gen NU has always been a tier where Spikes are strong, so I guess Garbodor could use a move up. It's a good bulky Spiker and it sets up both Spikes and Toxic Spikes really effectively. Not to mention that with its typing, it can check Sawk using Close Combat, and Rocky Helmet and Aftermath can be a pain. That's basically all I have to say about it, considering NU has always been a Spikes strong tier a move up for garbage bag could definitely be worth it.

Well that's all I have for now...this tier is a dead tier but I think it's still worth discussing, and this thread needs a lot of changes imo since the meta has shifted a lot post Jynx/Scolipede ban even though it died with 6th Gen around. Although a few things: I'm not sure of Probopass is really an A- mon anymore, it should probably drop, Roselia could probably rise, Duosion in Mid C is silly, Skuntank could use a nice jump considering Gardevoir is relevant again, Shadow Tag is gay and Gothorita is an ugly shit and a few more.
 
I made some changes
Keepo
Musharna down From S to Mid A
Garbodor from Low A to Top A
Probopass from Low A to Top B
Gardevoir from Top B to Mid A
Gothorita from Mid B to Top B
Duosion from Mid C to Top B (might move it higher but want discussion)
Electabuzz from Low B to Top B
 
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wartortle should be higher, it's the only good spinner in the tier. if you run spdef you can check charizard and special samurott and beat most spinblockers. should be like a- considering how dominant garbodor is

and no idea why the rotoms are so low they are so good!!
 
i'd love to see garbodor banned. i really enjoy the bwnu meta, but i hate the fact that once spikes go up they're generally there to stay. garbodor is the main culprit of this, pretty much getting free turns on any passive pokemon that doesn't have a strong ground or psychic stab. switching is such a vital part of pokemon, and the fact that the tier doesn't have adequate resources to deal with punishing switches (ie hazard removers are absolute balls) leads me to believe that the correct step towards improving the meta would be to get rid of garbodor.
 
Hazards in BW2 NU just ruin the meta. I mean I played a lot in the Scolipede + Jynx meta and while Scoli may have been the best hazard setter before it was banned, but Garbador was still amazing at checking CB Sawk (which is another problem...) with Rocky Helmet + Aftermath and that it can beat out most spinners with Gunk Shot poisoning and them getting chipped with Rocky Helmet. Chip damage is so crucial in this meta due to the fact that we have so much powerful hitters in Solar Power Charizard and CB Sawk, and its really overwhelming to deal with them due to switching being so detrimental in this meta. Garbador just warps the meta around it, so I agree that we should suspect it.

Edit: Shadow Tag is also dumb
 
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reviving this thread from the depths of ruins of alph...
garbodor should be s rank it is easily the best spiker in the tier and performs this job so incredibly well. the lack of quality spinners make stacking them extremely simple, exemplified by from this replay from the most recent nupl finals where both players easily get up full layers of spikes with no way to remove them. while most known for defensive sets with rocky helmet and aftermath, an offensive set with weak armor can be played more suicidally with decent 75 speed and explosion, using items such as normal gem or focus sash to once again easily lay down spikes. i wouldn't mind a garbodor suspect either this ease and efficiency at setting up either type of spikes was one of many reasons why scolipede was banned midway through spl5 4.5 years ago.
 
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youre 100% right and this definitely needs to be revamped.

My thoughts:
Alomomola A+ -> S
Garbodor A+ -> S

Kangaskhan S -> A+
Samurott S -> A+

Primeape A+ -> A

Serperior A -> A+
Musharna A -> B+
Zangoose A -> A-

Wartortle A- -> B-
Exeggutor A- -> B+

Regirock A- -> A

Duosion B+ -> A
Gothorita B+ -> A
Rotom-Frost B+ -> A-


I also just removed the D-rank entirely because nothing in there was worth looking at
 
Raseri said:
youre 100% right and this definitely needs to be revamped.
Click to expand...

My thoughts:
Alomomola A+ -> S no, a bit too one dimensional and too vulnerable to toxic/taunt/setup despite its valuable wish support, magic coat can be useful but can be played around and fills up a valuable moveslot
Garbodor A+ -> S thoughts given earlier

Kangaskhan S -> A+ yes, very good at what it does but has many bulky/fighting checks and stab that wears it down
Samurott S -> A+ no, somewhat unpredictable and can easily bust through common responses, has decent bulk/ajet to offset average speed

Primeape A+ -> A yes, has many issues with physically bulky mons and very reliant on choice items

Serperior A -> A+ yes, outspeeds most of the tier and can set up on a lot of defensive mons
Musharna A -> B+ gets worn down too fast in this spike infested metagame and vulnerable to mandi, drop
Zangoose A -> A- yes, similar issues to kanga

Wartortle A- -> B- LOL how did this get so high its way too passive sure it gets foresight but the one time it got used last nupl the spikes went right back up drop please
Exeggutor A- -> B+ jynx might be long gone but it still has many other exploitable weaknesses in spite of its ability to put things to sleep, drop

Regirock A- -> A definitely on equal footing with golem and does defensive sr better, up

Duosion B+ -> A wrecks stall, definitely a better pick than mush for this meta, up
Gothorita B+ -> A see above + traps things
Rotom-Frost B+ -> A- unpredictable/hard to wall, probably good enough for A honestly
 
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im not an expert but I'll evaluate from personal experience

serp is definetly an A+ level threat
i think everything regarding garb was said, agree
duosion -> a+ seems kinda wild i think a- is fine
also samurott is the second best spinner, stay S.

can we just ur wartortle good lord

trapping is broken, goth to a seems alright
mush feels like a suboptimal pick most of the time, and like cbt said, spikes kinda make that even worse

alom to S hm, honestly with how dominant this mon is S doesnt seem off, while its exploitable, its also quite centralizing (in making the tier boring <.<) and S rank seems justified
 
Ugh Mr. Soapy forcing me to post for the first time in forever.
Alomomola to S is 100% yes, as it can function in basically any playstyle and has enough versatility between physD and mirror coat sets.

Garbodor to S would be a no for me, spikes are obvs the main selling point (as its an unreliable fighting resist except for gurdurr) but I feel like most teams should be set up good enough to prevent spikes to go up (that replay provided above is not the greatest example of a battle even if it was in a finals lol)

Kanga to A+ I would agree with, it cant do a ton to mandi/alo which is annoying, and toxic spikes should also not be an issue to a team if built correctly so kanga spikes hasnt been as prevalant as it once was

Samurott to A+ I dont have a strong opinion either way, both of its sets are stupidly hard to counter and its bulky enough to run a berry and go past its expected counters

primeape to A+ O would disagree with, as I dont think relying on a choice item is a bad thing and cb primeape is such a good mon especially with its speed tier. Can also handle gothorita which is always appreciated

Serp to A+ I agree with grass + hp rock + faster than tauros really make this a top threat

Musharna to B+ I agree with, would rather just use duosion if i needed that type of roll, and doesnt to a ton to skunk or mandi which is a problem

Zangoose to A- Im on the fence about, spikes + toxic orb is a huge hindrance to it and i dont think it was used by anyone by me last nupl but this thing hits like a truck and there are basically no switchins to it

Wartortle to drop I disagree with, still the most reliable spinner and definitely works on balanced teams or team that focus around specs zard. mirror coat wartortle also a goat

Exeggutor to drop to B+ I agree with, sub seed again has the problems of mandibuzz and skunk, and specs is a cool set but again those dark types really make it a tough mon to utilize well.

Regirock to A-/B+ sounds right for it, something that can take hits fro the normal types and charizard are good enough traits despite not having the nice electric immunity golem has

Duosion should be above musharna

Gothorita should be A rank, I feel like this is one of the most meta defining mons out there and can really punishes bulkier teams that are out there. Its also not too unreasonable to have this work multiple times in a match. obvs the matchup vs skunk and mandibuzz is sucky

Rotom-F to A+, its one of the best mons out there and destroys lives of teams that dont have a piloswine. It was one of the most used mons last nupl for a reason and people dont run bulky normals to respond to it
 
Personally I feel Regi is great at one thing but Golem is much more unpredictable which makes it the more dangerous threat. With STAB EQ, Explosion, Sucker Punch and Sturdy (as well as Toxic and Rock Blast and the rest) it can run a lot of surprising sets that can catch the opponent out. Speedy Golem can be a nasty surprise and the mere threat of Explosion can force an opponent's hand. Not to mention the Electric immunity which can be played in a very ballsy way by a skilled player (scouting electric mons and, if you're ballsy, pivoting for advantage against the plethora of Rotom sets). With Regi it's bulky as hell but I feel you roughly know what you're gonna get and can have a plan for grinding it down without worrying too much whereas Golem can (depending on the set you choose to run) tank if you wish, dish out punishment if you wish, and pull some nasty surprises and be a general pain in the ass if it's being played in a slightly unconventional way. Also it's just more fun to play imo. So I would say despite Regi being a better tank, Golem is the more unpredictable and in my experience the more dangerous and therefore Regi is fine in a slightly lower tier.

Not that my experience is all that relevant anymore but just my 2c on Regi vs Golem.
 
did a bunch of changes that were in here

didnt drop samurott from S as people are pretty split on it
didnt move wartortle as im not sure where it should be and theres little consensus
kept primeape in A+
moved goth and duo up and musharna down
kept regirock in A- for now
too lazy to list them all but most were done


the upper ranks are looking a bit better now, still needs some work with A+/A.
 
Carracosta to A
This mon is just not as good as the rest of A+. It can set up on like 2 pokemon in the S and A rank, doesn't bring any defensive utility with its Smash set, and defensive sets are pretty good I guess but there's just not that many mons it beats to make it worth most of the time imo. Punch was right all along.

Regirock/Golem
I feel like people are understating just how much bulk Regirock has compared to Golem. This thing can tank CB Ada Sawk CC with minimal Defense investment ffs. Some other things Regirock does that Golem can't: force SpecsZard to not click Fire Blast every time it's in, switch into CB Brav, stop Kangaskhan with Spikes down, switch into Garbodor reliably, take on Carracosta, beat both Rotoms and more.
Yes, Golem can stop Volt Switch but every viable Volt Switch user in this tier has a way to just bop Golem with a coverage move.

In the end, I feel like Regirock's ability to tank neutral and some super effective hits makes him overall a more useful option for teams. Regirock to A, Golem to A- imo

Primeape to A
Fine with this, the mon is very good but it just falls short in terms of power/speed compared to the top tier offensive pokemon.

Wartortle to B
It's not good but it's still the only real spinner in the tier and has a great typing for what it does.
 
Aladyyn said:
Carracosta to A
This mon is just not as good as the rest of A+. It can set up on like 2 pokemon in the S and A rank, doesn't bring any defensive utility with its Smash set, and defensive sets are pretty good I guess but there's just not that many mons it beats to make it worth most of the time imo. Punch was right all along.
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disagree, while costa may have its flaws that keep it from s like it was in the past, it is definitely a threat to be accounted for in the teambuilder & shouldn't be taken likely, have something out that costa can take multiple hits from or lock yourself into a resisted attack on a choiced attacker and it gets a free turn to wreck your team if you dont have something that can outspeed/take a hit. shell smash isnt being used as a defensive set so not sure why you are using defensive utility as an argument. tldr keep costa in high a
 
If I remember correctly, it was fulfilled by Pokemon like Solrock (which I think still deserves a rank since it has Levitate, WoW, Morning Sun and a Fighting neutrality, which is enough to justify its use over Regirock in my opinion), Wailord, Heatmor, Octillery as well as some NFEs that you mentionned like Natu. Sorry if I can't give you an accurate answernow that the rank is gone...
 
I also wish to nominate Probopass for Low-A. It is an extremely versatile Utlity Mon, Wall, and Volturner, being the only stealth rocker with access to Volt Switch in NU (Outside of the completely irrelavant Stunfisk and Nosepass). This great ability allows it to switch into things like Swellow, and with a Volt Switch slower than their U-Turn, bring momentum to your side. It is also an extremely good stealth rocker, being able to tank hits from large parts of the tier, and getting up rocks in their face. The Defensive set also acts as an extremely strong Speczard check which is a huge threat right now, being 3HKO'd, meaning it can hit back with a Power Gem / Gain Momentum with volt switch even after swtiching into a fire blast. Lastly, it's Magnet Pull set supports many of the current metagame's top sweepers extremely well, being able to trap something such as Klang or Metang, and opening giant holes for things like Jynx, one of the best pokemon in NU right now, to clean through.
 
badabing said:
I also wish to nominate Probopass for Low-A. It is an extremely versatile Utlity Mon, Wall, and Volturner, being the only stealth rocker with access to Volt Switch in NU (Outside of the completely irrelavant Stunfisk and Nosepass). This great ability allows it to switch into things like Swellow, and with a Volt Switch slower than their U-Turn, bring momentum to your side. It is also an extremely good stealth rocker, being able to tank hits from large parts of the tier, and getting up rocks in their face. The Defensive set also acts as an extremely strong Speczard check which is a huge threat right now, being 3HKO'd, meaning it can hit back with a Power Gem / Gain Momentum with volt switch even after swtiching into a fire blast. Lastly, it's Magnet Pull set supports many of the current metagame's top sweepers extremely well, being able to trap something such as Klang or Metang, and opening giant holes for things like Jynx, one of the best pokemon in NU right now, to clean through.
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jynx has been banned since midseason of spl5 which was 4.5 years ago...probopass definitely has a solid niche but given whats in a- i find that to be a bit high for it, it doesnt have a great matchup vs common sr setters with its double weakness to ground type moves, fighting types just bust through it or set up, same deal with water types. b+ is fine for it.
 
I don't know too much about bw2 nu, but I enjoy the tier and played a game of it in NUPL and won, and I expected Bronzor to be ranked but it isn't. I used it in my game courtesy of HJAD and it put in work, and I've used it since then as well in ROA room tours and such.

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon
- Toxic
- Rest
This is the set I used, it should probably be ranked somewhere.
 
Reviving this thread to ask a question: Why is Wartortle still A-? I get that it's one of only usable spinners in the tier, but is it really on the same level as staples like Piloswine, Rotom-F, Roselia, Skuntank, and Regirock, all of whom offer more utility, see more use in tours (Wartortle has only seen 4 uses this entire NUPL, though it is with a 75% win rate), and generally perform better in most situations than it? (And even as a spinner Wartortle tends to lose to the best hazard setter in the tier, see the few times it was used in NUPL)



Also using this post to say that maybe the VR could use a slight update, given that it has been over 2 years since it was last touched in any capacity?
 
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