Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[Raseri]

Edit: Is there any reasoning as to why Rotom-Freeze is A while Rotom-Fan is B? Yeah, Freeze has a decent defensive typing and BoltBeam, but why is it considered the better Rotom form in the tier?

Rotom-F is B-rank because it has a decent defensive typing and boltbeam. With the decline of Scarf Rotom formes, rotom-f was able to secure itself a niche with its powerful STAB options. Rotom-S really doesn't do much anymore, Air Slash isn't exactly amazing coverage.

I typed a bunch but lost it all :(

Basically I think Audino should drop down to C-rank because it isn't bulky enough and lacks any sort of movepool and is huge setup bait but has a Dual Screens niche, Regirock to B-rank because it lacks reliable recovery and Rock Blast and doesn't help the team nearly as much as Piloswine or Golurk (priority, antilead, excellent STABs and coverage etc).

And Lickilicky should move up to A-rank because it is one of the bulkiest mofos in the tier on both sides, has excellent support movepool, good offensive stats to either break subs as a wall or hit hard offensively, and can surprise opponents with all kinds of offensive, defensive and setup sets which are all usable (Spdef, SD, Curse, Band, Mixed, Cloud Nine, they're all decent sets!). It is the premier special wall and very versatile outside of that, so deserves A-rank imo.

Also Metang in B-rank doesn't look right. I'm struggling to think what it can do, check Jynx somewhat I guess, but it is massive setup bait for nearly everything. For a full stall team it might be OK but it lacks phazing or any sort of threat and not even Leftovers! It is C-rank if generous, but I'd be tempted to stick it straight into D-rank!

Audino has regenerator, so not needing to protect to heal itself is great. Lickilicky is forced out by way too much right now and gets worn down even easier and won't contribute to the team much. Audino is also cuter :)

Just popping in, but why is Illumise B-Rank? It is pretty much a Volbeat without Tail Glow, which makes it seem a LOT worse. Is there something it can do that I'm missing that is better than what Volbeat can do?

EDIT: Another pop-in, but what exactly makes Stantler better than Sawsbuck in any regard? It's only advantage it seems like is Calm Mind, but it has no STAB alongside it. Also, the on-site set is 100% doable with Sawsbuck. E-Rank imo.

EDIT2: I agree with Sweet Jesus. If Wish is all it has, then it deserves D-Rank, not B. Its HP isn't even that high!

Illumise in B is a mistake, I thought I put it in C -.-, anyways it isn't that much worse than Volbeat so it should probably be in C. It isn't bad at all, D is really underselling the value it brings to rain teams. Apparently Stantler is a cool mixed wallbreaker (its SpA is 85 iirc), so it can break through some common defensive cores, which is enough for D rank imo.

Stantler has only one weakness, as compared to Sawsbuck's weaknesses to Fire, Flying, Ice, Bug and Poison. Stantler does have Intimidate, for what it's worth.

Not gonna say Stantler is really any good, and I never see it anyway, but if enough people have used it I guess it's there.

Also not being weak to everything under the sun helps too.

Nominating Omanyte for D-Rank. It, along with Dwebble (and Pineco which doesn't have an analysis) are the only NU Pokemon with Spikes AND Stealth Rock, giving it a niche. It has a decent 90 SpA, and it can burn physical attackers with Scald. (It can run Toxic Spikes, but why bother when Scolipede's running amok?) HP Rock provides STAB and coverage that KOs the birds, while Toxic can stall Misdreavus. It can also go offensive, with Surf, Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam, taking out Serperior, Charizard, Golem, Golurk, Piloswine, and Regirock. It suffers from poor speed and SDef and a lack of recovery, which is why I don't think it should get higher than D-Rank.

We had a decent discussion about Omanyte, and it does do a few things decently. But as a a hazard setter I prefer Dwebble everytime because of sturdy. Omanyte is a lot easier to stop from taking hazards, and its use defensively is limited by the fact that there are infinity better water-types around. Omanyte is just outclassed at everything it does. :(



also k Primeape can go to A-rank i was overselling it, it's way better than SJ says it is though, hes just silly :)

So changes that I'm making now:

Primeape down to A from S
Illumise down to C from B
Marowak down to C from B

great discussion so far guys, keep it up!!

 

[Aasgier]

I'm just going to suggest that people stick to discussing Pokemon that are currently starred in the OP, since those are the ones that probably need the most discussion. Bring up crapmons later.

What's the point of discussing those? They are all fine, especially compared with Carracosta which easily belongs in A-rank.
Marowak and Metang are most debatable of the starred mons, but even then I don't mind their current position.

Metang might go to A-rank if you guys feel like it, since it is pretty good. It can run quite a few viable sets which are all useful, and it is possibly one of the best SR setters in this metagame.

Marowak... well... is an oddball. I've seen Marowak that were used very well and then it is very dangerous, but also the complete opposite. It performs fairly random and as such, I think B-rank is fine as it is ridiculously dangerous if used well, but I would not mind if it dropped to C-rank.

 

[Raseri]

What's the point of discussing those? They are all fine, especially compared with Carracosta which easily belongs in A-rank.
Marowak and Metang are most debatable of the starred mons, but even then I don't mind their current position.

Metang might go to A-rank if you guys feel like it, since it is pretty good. It can run quite a few viable sets which are all useful, and it is possibly one of the best SR setters in this metagame.

Marowak... well... is an oddball. I've seen Marowak that were used very well and then it is very dangerous, but also the complete opposite. It performs fairly random and as such, I think B-rank is fine as it is ridiculously dangerous if used well, but I would not mind if it dropped to C-rank.

First of all, Carracosta is not "easily A-rank", it was voted S rank 3-1 4-0 by the people involved in making this list, who are all good NU players with experience under their belt. The majority of accomplished players also believe that it is worthy of being S rank. I've already outlined how easy Carracosta is to use in this metagame so I won't bother doing it again.

The starred Pokemon are ones that had their votes split when we made the list, most often split 2-2 or possibly 3-2 if FLCL was around. Because we were unable to reach a consensus it is important that they get discussion.

I'm also all for Metang in A btw.

 

[wiitle]

Would like to add support for A-rank Metang. It has pretty damn impressive bulk with Eviolite attached. Metang has a great defensive typing and the ability to switch in on a lot of things such as Jynx and a shitton of offensive normal types. It has access to SR and is probably one of the best setters.

Metang is just a great mon, especially this meta where its traits really shine.

 

[Infernis]

First of all, I'm just gonna put it out there that EndRev is done far better by Sawk than Primeape. Sturdy lets you use Bulk Up against a fast foe like Gardevoir while they bring you down to Salac levels, and then you fuck up everything. He still gets Endure for when Sturdy is broken. If they're too fast, they're probably frail enough to be murdered by Close Combat on the first turn anyway. (Like Jynx!)

Oh, and...
+1 252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 370-436 (133.09 - 156.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Primeape Reversal (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 199-235 (71.58 - 84.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But anyway, on to the meat of the post.

Carracosta for A: Carracosta is darn good once it gets a Shell Smash off, but it is much harder to get than, say, a Swords Dance for Samurott. Samurott has pretty good bulk for a setup sweeper. Carracosta will get massacred by many things. The Mighty Metang can possibly crush it with a pair of Meteor Misses if it tries to set up (assuming no White Herb.) Scarfstrika gets a clean OHKO with either HP Grass or Thunderbolt if Carracosta has any sort of prior damage. (Or no White Herb.) And it's frail enough on the special side that there are a lot of threats that it simply cannot setup against. The Rotoms, Serperior, Gardevoir, et cetera. It's very good once it gets going, but getting going takes a lot of team support. Samurott doesn't need that so much, since it has priority, decent speed already, and Waterfall/Megahorn to hit literally every Pokemon in the metagame bar Mantine, Swanna, Pelipper, and Altaria neutrally or better. (Water/Rock actually hits everything neutrally or better in NU, but Stone Edge has less power and doesn't do anything extraordinary to grass types.) They're both good, but I've always found Samurott to be the more reliable and more practical option.

Golurk for S: This thing is goddamn incredible. It can rock out with a support set, it can DynamicPunch your foes into ragequitting, it can Choice Band its way through most of the metagame, go for a sweep with Rock Polish, or Sub-Punch with almost the power of Sawk's Close Combat. I personally like the CB set, and I've used it in hundreds of matches. I can't recall any matches where it hasn't traded punches to take out at least one enemy. The thing can OHKO offensive Musharna with Shadow Punch, or maybe even OHKO Ludicolo with it after two layers of spikes. It takes a bit of prediction to use properly, but the thing is bulky enough to at least hit once, and once is often all it needs. Oh yeah, and it can beat an unsmashed Carracosta, since Aqua Jet won't OHKO any sort of Golurk before a smash. So there's no reason to switch out and let it set up.

252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 306-360 (105.88 - 124.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 183-216 (63.32 - 74.74%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and (2 layers of) Spikes

Golurk got top usage last month because most teams can find a use for one of its many functions. Good rocker, good spinblocker, decent setup sweeper, excellent wallbreaker.

Eelektross for A: I haven't used this one much myself, but many of my teams have been incredibly frustrated by the wide variety of sets it can run. Coil can be quite a shock when expecting a special attacker, and that slow Volt Switch can change momentum like nothing else. The lack of weaknesses makes it quite a bit bulkier than one might expect.

Ninjask to B: C-rank, really? For practically the best anti-metagame Pokemon in this stage? Baton Passing is done better by nothing else, sure, but that's only one thing that Ninjask can do. The other is to completely wreck Primeape, Jynx, Sawk, Scolipede, Tangela, Musharna Gardevoir, Combusken, Kadabra, unexpecting Liepard, Sneasel, Roselia, Duosion, Grumpig, Butterfree, Serperior, Cherrim, Sawsbuck, Jumpluff, Exeggutor, Bellossom, Victreebel, Shiftry, Maractus, Sunflora, and Ludicolo. That's right, most of the top 10. Every single sun sweeper. Ludicolo for the rain crowd. Hordes of other random fast-but-frail threats. The thing is practically tailor-made to slaughter Combusken. There are a lot of other Pokemon that it can revenge kill if they've taken prior damage, and practically nothing is going to escape a hit without switching out. Stealth Rock extends the above list significantly, and spikes make it pretty huge. Flying/Bug coverage isn't great, but it's fairly useful in this metagame. Ninjask can actually 2HKO even the most defensive Musharna without fearing a return KO. Offensive Musharna is KO'd after a dash of hazards. Ninjask has access to the fastest U-Turn in the game. With Protect for the first turn, it can scout out the enemy while managing to outrun literally everything else in the metagame. No priority in the tier except for STAB Sucker Punches can take it out in one hit, and while rocks can do a number, Ninjask is generally fast enough that that is the only damage it takes in most matches I use it in. So it might need a spinner for support, but it deals with very important threats swimmingly. With Baton Pass instead of U-Turn, it can pass speed while revenge killing, building up automatic momentum for your Ursaring or Golurk or whatever. How many other Pokemon currently in C rank destroy entire team archetypes? Ninjask is at least as good on the offense as Kadabra and Rapidash and whatnot.

EDIT: The Mighty Metang is ascendant. Metang for S-Rank A.

 

[Punchshroom]

The always present problem Carracosta has is his frankly awkward combination of speed, power and bulk. Oh it seems Jolly is better in this meta? Well you'd better have Life Orb to make up for the loss in power then, because White Herb only nets you so many kills. But by wielding LO, Carracosta has left his defenses exposed, and he's losing health with each blow, making him remarkably vulnerable to anything that strikes first (notice I didn't mention priority, because Carra is so slow outspeeding him without Scarf is entirely possible). The meta may be frailer than it was in Stage 8, but the greater emphasis in faster threats means Carra still has to be on his toes.

Shell Smash may be a powerful move, but Carracosta really struggles to make use of it better than most other pokemon that have access to this move. The defense lowering aspect is more prominent than it lets on, as my calcs have proven that Smash Costa isn't particularly stellar at taking hits. Even after a Smash, numerous pokemon can still stop it, and a good amount of these either resort to / outright rely on Carracosta's defense drops and LO damage to beat it, or just Toxic/Thunder Wave/phaze Costa to ruin him anyway. These include but aren't limited to: Alomomola, Seismitoad, Gurdurr, Miltank, Garbodor, Tangela, Throh, Vileplume, Metang, Weezing and Torterra. You say hazards play an important role in KOing these threats, but really doesn't that apply for all offensive pokes, like Charizard or Samurott?

And those were just pokemon that can switch in on Shell Smash and live to tell the tale. Now for pokemon that can revenge kill Carracosta, and boy this list is pretty big. Granted, Aqua Jet goes a long way in beating certain Choice Scarfers and Sucker Punchers, but other Scarfers such as Jynx, Tauros, Pinsir or Rotom-A won't go down nearly as easily, so in order to wear down these threats enough one would have to keep Carracosta in reserve and in good health until the time is right, and thus you are unable to utilise Carracosta's good resistances, compounded by the fact that he has no recovery and frankly unfantastic bulk.

Ohohoho, we're not even into the biggest problem I have with Carracosta. Its STAB combination is fantastic, but did you know you have to rely on Stone Edge time to time for threats like Serperior and Jynx? Ever get that sweet feeling where your Zweilous goes on its unstoppable rampage until, whoop~, a miss screws you over sideways and blows your sweep. Yeah, Carracosta is risking that much everytime you go for a sweep with him: he could save the game for you or take out a grand total of zero pokes because Stone Edge decided to be a bitch, unless you manage to get rid of all Water immunities and weaken Water resists (in which case, you should be able to make any other sweeper work then), and getting rid of the likes of Seismitoad, Tangela and Alomomola is a hell of a lot easier said than done, so most of the time you have to rely on an 80% accurate move more than once just to maintain your sweep. Now tell me again whether it is truly S-Rank. The Tank Costa doesn't push it any further into S-Rank imo, mostly because it is handled by the same threats (plus more) in exchange for actually taking hits as well as his stats suggest.

Samurott is still S-Rank (imo) because it can outspeed slower pokes like Golurk and Piloswine without the need for setup, but primarily because of the potency of both its physical sets and special sets. Physical sets may face competition from Smash Costa (Rott's advantages being its higher initial speed and better mixed bulk for taking Jynx's Psychics and whatnot), but special/mixed sets are still in a league of their own. Bringing in the wrong counter for Samurott could be disastrous, whereas at least you know your Carracosta counter is more foolproof.

 

[tennisace]

Carracosta for A: Carracosta is darn good once it gets a Shell Smash off, but it is much harder to get than, say, a Swords Dance for Samurott. Samurott has pretty good bulk for a setup sweeper. Carracosta will get massacred by many things. The Mighty Metang can possibly crush it with a pair of Meteor Misses if it tries to set up (assuming no White Herb.) Scarfstrika gets a clean OHKO with either HP Grass or Thunderbolt if Carracosta has any sort of prior damage. (Or no White Herb.) And it's frail enough on the special side that there are a lot of threats that it simply cannot setup against. The Rotoms, Serperior, Gardevoir, et cetera. It's very good once it gets going, but getting going takes a lot of team support. Samurott doesn't need that so much, since it has priority, decent speed already, and Waterfall/Megahorn to hit literally every Pokemon in the metagame bar Mantine, Swanna, Pelipper, and Altaria neutrally or better. (Water/Rock actually hits everything neutrally or better in NU, but Stone Edge has less power and doesn't do anything extraordinary to grass types.) They're both good, but I've always found Samurott to be the more reliable and more practical option.

To start off with:

252Atk Life Orb +2 Carracosta (Neutral) Aqua Jet vs 4HP/0Def Lightningrod Zebstrika (Neutral): 74% - 87% (217 - 256 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Whoops there goes your Zebstrika after a lil passive damage! Adamant is an OHKO after SR.

Anyway, I'm not sure how a Shell Smash is harder to set up than a Swords Dance. Looking at the current rankings, Carracosta can set up on: Scolipede, Kangaskhan, Some Jynx, Braviary, Charizard, Garbodor, Haunter, Regirock, Swellow, Tauros. That's just S/A, and I didn't include some of the iffy matchups like choice locked Primeape, Zangoose, etc.

Your argument that it loses to Electric/Grass-types is kind of irrelevant, because why would you attempt to set up Carracosta without getting rid of those first? In addition, after a Shell Smash, it outspeeds them all except Scarf Zebstrika, which I already covered, and Scarf Rotom-S, which:

252Atk Life Orb +2 Carracosta (Neutral) Aqua Jet vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Rotom (Neutral): 58% - 68% (141 - 166 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Adamant has a chance at an OHKO after SR. If they take even a little bit of residual damage, then they're screwed.

How do these Pokemon stop it from setting up, unless you play retardedly and switch Carracosta into an Electric/Grass type? Carracosta can again: force out a mon, use Shell Smash, start wrecking shit.

Also, how is STAB Stone Edge weaker than non-STAB Megahorn? You said it yourself: Water/Rock is one of the best STAB combinations to have in NU right now, since nothing relevant resists them both. Reliability of Stone Edge shouldn't even be an argument because, oh hey, Megahorn and Hydro Pump are just as unreliable really.

I would respond to Punchshroom's post but to be frank he made the same tired old points and didn't address anything new, except for:

"Shell Smash may be a powerful move, but Carracosta really struggles to make use of it better than most other pokemon that have access to this move."

and

"Ever get that sweet feeling where your Zweilous goes on its unstoppable rampage"

which make me think it's not actually a serious post.

 

[ebeast]

@Infernis
Your arguments for A-rank Carracosta don't really make much sense. Carracosta can't set up on the Rotoms, Serperior, or Gardevoir? (not really that relevant in this metagame but ok) Well neither can Samurott. Samurott has a few Pokemon that it can set up on that Carracosta cannot, but in general Carracosta is able to set up on more Pokemon thanks to its secondary Rock-typing and Solid Rock. Samurott has solid bulk, but so does Carracosta. 95/85/70 vs 74/133/65 + Solid Rock is a pretty even match up. Carracosta's great physical bulk + Solid Rock means it can set up on a ton of common offensive Pokemon including Kangaskhan, Scolipede, and the birds. Pokemon like Scarf Zeb and Scarf Ape are taken down by LO Aqua Jet after a bit of prior damage. (BTW White Herb is probably one of the worst items you could use on Carracosta) Stone Edge is stronger than Megahorn after taking in STAB and almost all Grass-types are destroyed by it. In fact the only real counters to Carracosta are: Tangela and Physically Defensive Seismitoad. The former isn't doing very well in a metagame full of Scolipede and Jynx and Seismitoad needs to be Physically Defensive to stand a chance against Costa. A reason why Scarf Jynx is really good right now is because it's one of the few offensive Pokemon that can KO Carracosta at +2 without sustaining any damage from it. This shows the dominance that Carracosta has been exerting in the tier right now.

And stop with all the salt in this thread. It's making me go blind. Speaking of salt, pls stop calling it "The Mighty Metang" that period of its life ended a long time ago.

Also Zweilous rules, just don't try to sweep with it LO!L.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Costa stays S

compounded by the fact that he has no recovery and frankly unfantastic bulk.

I don't think there's any other sweeper in NU with better physical bulk than costa's. (let's not count dumb stuff like shelgon)

Now, the point you seem to ommit about costa, is that it's not made to start it's sweep first turn. Now I don't know how much you've used seismitoad, but that thing is so useful to a team it's always in play and therefore can easily be weakend and killed before costa comes in. As for tangela and alomomola, they are rather similar mons that can be abused and countered by either gothorita, roselia and many others (tangela is also rather uncommon and bad in this meta full of spikers that abuse it).

Now the calcs you've provided in your first post actually just show how dangerous costa is, scolipede, one of the most important physical threats of the meta only deals less than 50 % ! This is not a full stop to setting up at all considering once boosted costa will kill the bug with a jet after rocks.

Talking about rocks, many revenge killers happen to be weak to rocks and will just be ko'd by a-jet. You talk about kangaskhan stopping costa with double priority, well kanga does 35% if it gets 2 max rolls and if it predicts correctly the aqua jet sucker punch battle (50-50). Not to mention LO costa doesn't give no shit about just switching out to set up again later while kanga's weak fake out is a free switch to whatever you felt like switching in. same goes for other scarfers with primeape not having the guts to go for u-turn because if he doesn't cc he takes a chance at losing the game.

The fact costa has 2 (see 3) useful items is not a downside either, it's just makes it capable of fitting different specifities depending on your team's needs.

Costa is really an excellent poke right now with the most common walls concentrating on walling sawk, primeape and kanga, grass types in general being much less effective now that scolipede is here and aqua jet killing so many things that outpeed it.

 

[ryan]

I mean, ebeast and tennisace pretty much covered what I was going to say before I got the chance to say it. I will, however, go ahead and outline the reasons why I voted for Carracosta for S-Rank.

First off, its checks and counters are truly varying based on which set it is running. It really does have the potential to run a few great sets. First off, it can run Ice Beam to muscle past Tangela really easily.

I don't know what Garbodor is doing to stop its sweep.

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs 252 HP/240 Def Garbodor (+Def) : 67.86% - 80.22% (2 hits to KO)
And if you are shaky about Aftermath and the possibility of Rocky Helmet, Stone Edge hits harder and ignores these things.

I don't know what Miltank is doing to stop its sweep.

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 Def Miltank: 73.1% - 86.04% (2 hits to KO)

I don't know what Throh is doing to stop it.

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 Def Throh: 77.03% - 90.77% (2 hits to KO)

And so on and so forth. The fact is, this is all with a Jolly nature. If you run Adamant, it breaks even more walls. The only thing I can concede based on these calcs is that Carracosta enjoys hazard support, but quite frankly, what Pokemon doesn't?

Yes, Carracosta has things that act as full stops for it. But you can say this about any S-Rank Pokemon in any tier. Alomomola pretty much walls all of our current S-Rank Pokemon bar Jynx, but they are all still stellar Pokemon in the current NU metagame.

Another reason why I support Carracosta for S-Rank is because it truly IS easy to set it up. Its Rock typing plays sort of a blessing and a curse, but to me, it's more of a blessing. This is partially because of Solid Rock as well. Refer to tennisace's post for a list of Pokemon against which it has no problem setting up. It's pretty easy, as well, to build a team weak to Carracosta.

Also, Jolly Carracosta outspeeds up to Timid Serperior, which, to me, means that it is worth running.

Probably the only thing that I really hate about it is that Scarf Jynx outspeeds it at +2, and Aqua Jet cannot be used to take it down. Otherwise, it seriously wrecks. In fact, I think it's better than Samurott right now.

 

[Dell]

Carracosta for A: Carracosta is darn good once it gets a Shell Smash off, but it is much harder to get than, say, a Swords Dance for Samurott. Samurott has pretty good bulk for a setup sweeper. Carracosta will get massacred by many things. The Mighty Metang can possibly crush it with a pair of Meteor Misses if it tries to set up (assuming no White Herb.) Scarfstrika gets a clean OHKO with either HP Grass or Thunderbolt if Carracosta has any sort of prior damage. (Or no White Herb.) And it's frail enough on the special side that there are a lot of threats that it simply cannot setup against. The Rotoms, Serperior, Gardevoir, et cetera. It's very good once it gets going, but getting going takes a lot of team support. Samurott doesn't need that so much, since it has priority, decent speed already, and Waterfall/Megahorn to hit literally every Pokemon in the metagame bar Mantine, Swanna, Pelipper, and Altaria neutrally or better. (Water/Rock actually hits everything neutrally or better in NU, but Stone Edge has less power and doesn't do anything extraordinary to grass types.) They're both good, but I've always found Samurott to be the more reliable and more practical option.

Basically to top it off, I agree with everything that tennisace and everyone else responded towards you about. As tennisace's list of Pokemon that it has the capability of checking implies, I don't think you've taken account towards how physically-oriented this metagame has become as of late, which is one of the reasons of why it doesn't have much trouble setting up even if they do carry a super effective coverage move with the best example being a Normal-type with Earthquake thanks to high Defense and Solid Rock. Additionally, a number of prominent Special Attackers in the tier usually make use of STAB moves that Carracosta has resistances to such as Charizard, Haunter, and Jynx, which can especially give it an opportunity if they happen to be Choice-locked.

In regards to any other concerns, I don't understand why you (seem to) have taking account towards Samurott having access to priority, but not that of Carracosta. That's one of the reasons why it is often deceptively difficult to stop once it gets that opportunity to setup, as after some small prior damage even common revenge killers like Primeape or Scarf Electric-types cannot reliably stop it. I've also noticed that when you didn't factor STAB when you've stated that Stone Edge is weaker than Megahorn; Carracosta receives STAB, adding a 150 Base Power move as opposed to un-STAB'd Megahorn's 120.

The always present problem Carracosta has is his frankly awkward combination of speed, power and bulk. Oh it seems Jolly is better in this meta? Well you'd better have Life Orb to make up for the loss in power then, because White Herb only nets you so many kills. But by wielding LO, Carracosta has left his defenses exposed, and he's losing health with each blow, making him remarkably vulnerable to anything that strikes first (notice I didn't mention priority, because Carra is so slow outspeeding him without Scarf is entirely possible). The meta may be frailer than it was in Stage 8, but the greater emphasis in faster threats means Carra still has to be on his toes.

Shell Smash may be a powerful move, but Carracosta really struggles to make use of it better than most other pokemon that have access to this move. The defense lowering aspect is more prominent than it lets on, as my calcs have proven that Smash Costa isn't particularly stellar at taking hits. Even after a Smash, numerous pokemon can still stop it, and a good amount of these either resort to / outright rely on Carracosta's defense drops and LO damage to beat it, or just Toxic/Thunder Wave/phaze Costa to ruin him anyway. These include but aren't limited to: Alomomola, Seismitoad, Gurdurr, Miltank, Garbodor, Tangela, Throh, Vileplume, Metang, Weezing and Torterra. You say hazards play an important role in KOing these threats, but really doesn't that apply for all offensive pokes, like Charizard or Samurott?

And those were just pokemon that can switch in on Shell Smash and live to tell the tale. Now for pokemon that can revenge kill Carracosta, and boy this list is pretty big. Granted, Aqua Jet goes a long way in beating certain Choice Scarfers and Sucker Punchers, but other Scarfers such as Jynx, Tauros, Pinsir or Rotom-A won't go down nearly as easily, so in order to wear down these threats enough one would have to keep Carracosta in reserve and in good health until the time is right, and thus you are unable to utilise Carracosta's good resistances, compounded by the fact that he has no recovery and frankly unfantastic bulk.

Ohohoho, we're not even into the biggest problem I have with Carracosta. Its STAB combination is fantastic, but did you know you have to rely on Stone Edge time to time for threats like Serperior and Jynx? Ever get that sweet feeling where your Zweilous goes on its unstoppable rampage until, whoop~, a miss screws you over sideways and blows your sweep. Yeah, Carracosta is risking that much everytime you go for a sweep with him: he could save the game for you or take out a grand total of zero pokes because Stone Edge decided to be a bitch, unless you manage to get rid of all Water immunities and weaken Water resists (in which case, you should be able to make any other sweeper work then), and getting rid of the likes of Seismitoad, Tangela and Alomomola is a hell of a lot easier said than done, so most of the time you have to rely on an 80% accurate move more than once just to maintain your sweep. Now tell me again whether it is truly S-Rank. The Tank Costa doesn't push it any further into S-Rank imo, mostly because it is handled by the same threats (plus more) in exchange for actually taking hits as well as his stats suggest.

Samurott is still S-Rank (imo) because it can outspeed slower pokes like Golurk and Piloswine without the need for setup, but primarily because of the potency of both its physical sets and special sets. Physical sets may face competition from Smash Costa (Rott's advantages being its higher initial speed and better mixed bulk for taking Jynx's Psychics and whatnot), but special/mixed sets are still in a league of their own. Bringing in the wrong counter for Samurott could be disastrous, whereas at least you know your Carracosta counter is more foolproof.

With all due respect, I see where you are coming from, but a lot of the claims that you are making are either false, irrelevant, or heavily exaggerated, which exempts an indication of you greatly underestimating Carracosta when you mention its shortcomings (not to mention ignoring most of the good points). Based on what I've stated to Infernis in regards to the current metagame itself, Carracosta probably has the easiest time setting up a Shell Smash out of all of the other users, with the addition of being among the hardest to actually stop. The only problem with Carracosta running a Jolly nature is that it requires a little more prior damage from the likes of Misdreavus or Weezing so it can pick them off with a boosted Stone Edge to avoid getting burned (or to refer to the defensive Pokemon you've listed, picking them off to avoid being stopped). Every good player also almost always use Life Orb anyways because of it's many benefits towards achieving KO's, so I don't particularly understand why you're making it seem like a bad thing to have to rely on Life Orb as the optimal item of choice for Carracosta.

As for Pokemon that revenge kills Carracosta, the list isn't really as long as you're making it out to be. It tends to be some of the same Pokemon like Choice Scarf Jynx or Serperior (for Adamant variants). The rest that you've mentioned are either not all that common in terms of usage or are often situational within their job of revenge killing Carracosta.

In regards to your arguments of it's somewhat reliance on Stone Edge to break through walls, citing that as a hindering factor towards its overall potentially is honestly the same appliance to say.... Samurott's reliance on Megahorn to hit anything that resists its main STAB. I won't be getting too much into this, but I don't think something like this should be very much of an indicative factor towards whether or not it deserves a specific rank.

Overall, I understand where you're coming from, but like said before you seem to be exaggerating among Carracosta's flaws a bit too much and you don't seem to be taking a lot of what you're contending to seriously, which indicated quite a few openings against your argument. It's presence in the metagame is truly what make it worthy of S-rank.

Oh, and don't hate of Zweilous (especially the ever so hot Specially Defensive set), folks.

 

[NeverUsedTier]

I saw talk about floatzel's ranking, "torn between b and c" i would definitely have to vote B and i can back my reasoning up. my personal favorite set is sub-bulk up because it can set up easily on many things and once it is set up if the opponent doesnt have a bulky grass type or something to out speed with a special attack, the opponent is pretty screwed. i usually run waterfall and return on that set for optimum coverage and the ability to set up and hit alo the hardest. other notable sets are life orb or the more popular flame orb switcheroo. band could be ran but i dont personally like that because basculin does it better and he could run life orb or ebelt way more effectively. floatzel has great speed and attack i just dont understand how it has been over looked so much. try out sub bulk up and set up against a wall or something and you will like it i promise!

 

[Infernis]

PSEUDO-EDIT: Well, looks like five people have posted since I started this post. I'll just leave in the important parts.

Also, for some reason I mentally thought of Stone Edge as an 80 power move despite knowing that it is not. That would actually make them the same power, which makes me double wrong. My bad.

leftover stuff from the before-time, mainly about setup opportunities

There is no reason for Carracosta to freely set up on Regirock. Regirock deals 40-ish percent with Stone Edge and Earthquake before the SS defense drop, and can finish off Carracosta immediately afterwards. Carracosta only has a 30% chance to KO Regirock from full before rocks, and that's while running Adamant with a life orb. Regirock has the ability to deal enough damage, at the least, to force Carracosta to kill itself with LO recoil.

Haunter could switch out, but why don't you just kill Carracosta with Shadow Ball? Or Thunderbolt? Haunter is faster, it has the power to KO Carracosta, and Aqua Jet is doing maximum 78%, not even enough to KO after rocks. (The only hazard that can hurt Haunter.)

Offensive and Scarf Charizard have access to Focus Blast, and while that's sort of shaky, Aqua Jet is the only way Costa is outrunning it. I mean, that's if they're even using Aqua Jet instead of Shell Smash the turn that you are supposedly switching out. Specs Charizard has HP Grass.

Zangoose can 2HKO with Close Combat even before Toxic Boost. If it's already activated, you can actually use Close Combat -> Quick Attack if they don't have a White Herb to guarantee a KO before rocks, I believe.

CONTINUED PSEUDO-EDIT:
I'd respond to the bit about me not considering Carracosta's Aqua Jet, but I am very much aware of it. My post had quite a bit about it before pruning, and retains some calcs with it.

It's not like I'm calling Carracosta terrible. You can't really go wrong in teambuilding with Kangaskhan's priority and coverage, or Scolipede's hazards and general speed. It seems to me that Carracosta forces you to have a bit more support than other S-Rank 'mons. Obviously if the entire council is voting for S, I'd be in the minority on that opinion.

 

[Punchshroom]

Alright, I acknowledge that Carracosta has fantastic dual STABs, great offensive (or defensive) presence and many pokemon cannot revenge kill Carracosta without coming out unscathed (though usually not dead). However, I will still address this (probably last) issue.

The problem I have with LO is that it, along with Shell Smash, enforces the "double-edged sword" factor Carracosta already has going for it. With lowered defenses and depleting health, this makes so that pretty much anything that manages to touch Carracosta at that point would probably kill it, or if Carracosta has to take a beating before the Smash its sweep risks getting cut short, and that's with Stone Edge misses aside.

Using Carracosta also only slightly mitigates your Normal and Flying weakness, because most of the time I find myself unable to switch to Carra on say Swellow, Kangaskhan or even Rapidash without my sweeper getting heavily damaged or crippled beyond repair. Running another Rock-type (and to a lesser extent Steel) would result in synergy issues, so it isn't particularly easy to slap on a team and say: "Right, now I'm totally impervious to Normals/Flyings on my HO team because Carra has very high defense!". In fact, I feel Jolly LO is the least suited for this particular role of setting up on resists on the switch because Jolly may not be hitting hard enough initially enough, thus not scaring things like Kangaskhan, Garbodor (with SE move), or even Armaldo out, while LO can cut his sweeping time short after taking a hit before he Smashes.

Granted, I admit the LO and accuracy issues aren't quite enough to lower Carra's rank, but he isn't quite as "low risk, high reward" as you'd make it out to be.

Edit: Yeah, what Infernis said about Carra about it needing more support. I guess I underestimated Carra's capability compared to other Smashers, but getting that Smash still isn't easy considering that the resists he can set up on can still cripple him with damage + LO / status, and he doesn't have the room for Sub like Gorebyss (who kills Jynx and Serperior with 100% accurate Signal Beam btw).

 

[Aasgier]

Anyway, I'm not sure how a Shell Smash is harder to set up than a Swords Dance. Looking at the current rankings, Carracosta can set up on: Scolipede, Kangaskhan, Some Jynx, Braviary, Charizard, Garbodor, Haunter, Regirock, Swellow, Tauros. That's just S/A, and I didn't include some of the iffy matchups like choice locked Primeape, Zangoose, etc.

You forget to take items into account, as well as that Carra either needs a free switch in or takes twice the damage because that speed and everything outspeeds it.

Hide

248 SpA Jynx Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 192-226 (66.43 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (let's disregard Energy Ball here).
252 SpA Charizard Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 288-342 (99.65 - 118.33%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO (that's without boosting item)
252 SpA Haunter Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 204-240 (70.58 - 83.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Again, unboosted. Life Orb will OHKO after SR.)
252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 220-259 (76.12 - 89.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (might OHKO after Rocks)
252 Atk Bug Gem Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Carracosta: 178-211 (61.59 - 73.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 146-174 (50.51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Do you REALLY want to set-up on those, especially with Spikes and Rocks being very common in the current meta?
Important items were bolded though, so you can set up on several other variants of those (not all though).

Setting up on Regirock also seems iffy to me because Regirock commonly runs T-Wave, which makes beating Carracosta later on that much easier, after sacrificing Regirock and dealing significant damage to Carra with Drain Punch or Stone Edge.

Like others have said, Carracosta is a good Pokémon. Just not S-rank good, and I feel it is inferior to Primeape and several other A-rank mons as well.

 

[Farobi]

I'd like to note that most of those moves / items you listed are quite rare and situational on these Pokemon. Haunter doesn't carry Thunderbolt often, "Some Jynx" may refer to the Choice-locked Ice Beam versions, Charizard may also be the SubRoost with STABs or Choice-locked with Flamethrower / Air Slash (you're right though that Costa shouldn't set up on Zard), Bug Gem Scolipede is not used much, and CB Braviary using Superpower is pushing it too far. I am still not certain of which rank Carracosta belongs to, but I say its close to S if I say so myself.

 

[Punchshroom]

It should be noted that while Carracosta can set up on Ice Beam-locked Jynx, they can simply switch out to use Psychic on the -1 SDef Carracosta after saccing one dude (and even the latter case isn't always guaranteed) while soaking up Aqua Jet, so you really shouldn't be setting up against a Jynx at all.

 

[Aasgier]

I'd like to note that most of those moves / items you listed are quite rare and situational on these Pokemon. Haunter doesn't carry Thunderbolt often, "Some Jynx" may refer to the Choice-locked Ice Beam versions, Charizard may also be the SubRoost with STABs or Choice-locked with Flamethrower / Air Slash (you're right though that Costa shouldn't set up on Zard), Bug Gem Scolipede is not used much, and CB Braviary using Superpower is pushing it too far. I am still not certain of which rank Carracosta belongs to, but I say its close to S if I say so myself.

If you don't know Braviary's set, it is something to take into account (if it reveals Leftovers straight away, go ahead and set up, though).

A significant number of Haunter carries T-Bolt and a significant number of Scolipede carries Bug Gem or Life Orb, which means you cannot set up. Some Scolipede also have three attacks, which is most likely EdgeQuake, and LO EQ from Scoli also deals a number to Carracosta.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think Carracosta deserves A-rank at most. While its sweep is difficult to stop once it gets going, I feel that quite a few factors hold it back. Firstly, it is beaten by many of the common threats in NU, before and after the smash. Before the smash, its speed is too low and it can really only be safe switching in once all its counters are gone. But Carracosta is walled by many Pokemon in NU - Alomomola beats it, Tangela beats it, Seismitoad beats it -- since it can't break through them without sacrificing one of its moves, and if it does, it becomes vulnerable to other stuff. You might say the others in S-rank are also walled, but they all have a way to play around them -- Samurott has Taunt, Sub and Megahorn, Jynx flat out beats them, and while Kangaskhan is forced out by the former two, it doesn't need setup to be effective, unlike Carracosta, and can afford to give up one of its moves for Substitute. Carracosta is inferior to the other S-ranks because it needs to set up and coupled with its low speed, low special defense and Shell Smash's unfortunate side effect, Carracosta is very vulnerable to revenge killing. In fact, all of NU's scarfers beat Carracosta after a Shell Smash. You might think Aqua Jet, but Sawk survives, Jynx is immune and Gurdurr survives and has priority of itself. Even during the smash, Carracosta has some difficulty setting up. It still takes large damage from the Normal-types it's supposed to wall. If it comes in on Swellow, Swellow even has the option to U-Turn which Carracosta doesn't like. The fact that its speed and special defense are so low that it becomes extremely vulnerable before smashing (and after, to an extent), while requiring team support to remove its counters, makes it A-rank for me.

Also, I've had this question lasting from the previous thread. Why is Throh B-rank? It's outclassed by Gurdurr who has Mach Punch and Drain Punch, has to rely on RestTalk, has to rely on a -6 priority move as STAB, and suffers from 4MSS. Doesn't this make Throh C-rank?

 

[ryan]

Alright, I still encourage Carracosta discussion, but I wanted to make it a point to post on most of the other starred Pokemon after this thread was posted. This is an attempt to do that.

I commented on Braviary and Eelektross previously, so if discussion of either of them is to come up, please refer to this post.

On Golurk:

Hide

Golurk is a Pokemon whose stance left me on the fence. On one hand, it's got a really cool typing that no other Pokemon shares. Ground is great offensively, hitting five types for super effective damage. Ghost is pretty great defensively as well, allowing Golurk to check the prominent Fighting-type Pokemon in the tier.

Golurk also has really nice bulk, with defensive stats of 89/80/80. While this wouldn't necessarily make Golurk a premier wall in NU, its great typing and respectable bulk make it a fantastic tank. The coolest part about Golurk is that it can come in on a lot of moves, and not much wants to switch into it. The offensive side of Golurk has a lot of things going for it. It can run Iron Fist with boosted punching moves like Ice Punch and Shadow Punch or No Guard with DynamicPunch, a 100 Base Power Fighting-type attack that always confuses the foe. You basically can't go wrong with Golurk unless you accidentally click Klutz.

What really sets it apart, though, is access to No Guard Dynamicpunch. Iron Fist sets are still very effective and should not be pitched aside immediately for No Guard, but I do feel that the No Guard set is much better in most instances. Unlike the only other Pokemon in NU with access to both No Guard and Dynamicpunch, Machoke, Golurk has better typing, coverage, and power. I touched a bit earlier on the fact that nothing likes to switch into Golurk. Power aside, this is a huge reason for that. Almost any potential check or counter has to worry about switching into a Dynamicpunch and faces the possibility of hitting itself in confusion rather than actually being able to retaliate. On top of this, Dynamicpunch still hits really hard, even if the Confusion hax does not work in your favor.

Overall, Golurk is an extremely low risk, high reward Pokemon that can be slapped on to pretty much any team. It has fantastic typing, usable bulk, and fantastic coverage. But overall, the odds of it beating out its checks and counters without actually /doing/ anything but clicking a high-powered move is one of the biggest driving factors in my opinion on its ranking. Unlike Liepard who is a high risk, high reward Pokemon with Prankster Swagger, Golurk has nothing to lose. In the end, even though I voted for it to be A-Rank previously, I think that Golurk deserves a spot in S-Rank.

On Seismitoad:

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I really like Seismitoad in this meta. I hadn't really used it much aside from toying with a specially defensive set up until the most recent drops in April. Its ability to check a good number of Pokemon in this meta with or without investment is great (I'm looking at you, physical Carracosta). Water Absorb is a great ability, granting an immunity to an otherwise spectacular offensive attacking type (I'm looking at you as well, Jynx). Its typing is probably in general the best thing about it. We have seen time after time how difficult it can be to knock out Water/Ground type Pokemon, such as Quagsire, Gastrodon, and most notably, Swampert. Seismitoad truly is no exception to this line of thinking. With only one weakness to a fairly rare attacking type in Grass, it doesn't have as easily exploitable weaknesses as many other Pokemon within the tier. We have Scolipede to thank for the omnipresence of Seismitoad. People fear running Grass-type Pokemon in the current metagame, thinking that Scolipede is going to keep them from being effective. While this is not entirely the case, this mindset that affects so many NU players does have a benefit for Seismitoad.

Another great thing about Seismitoad is that it runs a good number of sets relatively effectively. Thanks to its great 105/75/75 defenses coupled with its great typing (which I really cannot stress enough), it is able to run a physically defensive and a specially defensive set. It exceeds in both of these roles. It also has a solid base 85 Special Attack stat which means it can hit fairly hard. On top of that, its Attack stat is also base 85, so it can run Earthquake to handle Jynx. A set with Substitute and Toxic beats one of the tier's most notable walls: Alomomola. This alone makes it at least good. But it beats more than just Alomomola. With great STAB moves such as Earth Power and Hydro Pump, it can also beat out a lot of common Stealth Rock leads, and it has a positive matchup against almost every Pokemon in the tier. Much like Golurk, not much wants to switch into Seismitoad.

It is another Pokemon that functions really well in this metagame. While I could see it drop down to A-Rank with a shakeup in the tiers (most likely if we get certain Pokemon during the next tier change), the viability rankings are prone to change at any time. For now, I do think that Seismitoad deserves to be S-Rank. It fits so well on so many teams. It may not be quite as easy to slap on any team as Golurk is, but it still fits really well on a lot of teams thanks to the variety of great sets it can run. For a long time, Seismitoad was ignored, but now I think it's really this Pokemon's time to shine.

On Swellow:

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Swellow is easily my favorite Pokemon to utilize in this metagame. With a boost to its Attack from Guts and a Jolly nature, it hits a dangerous 403 Attack. To put this into perspective, Slaking, with base 160 Attack, hits 419 Attack with a Jolly nature, while Zekrom, with base 150 Attack, hits 399 Attack with a Jolly nature. Swellow's base Attack is only 85. Without Guts, it would be incredibly unimpressive, but with it, it is on par with the likes of Zekrom and Slaking. This alone is such a huge deal, but it's not all Swellow has going for it.

Swellow's base Speed is an enormous 125, basically letting it outspeed the entire relevant unboosted tier. Sure, it misses out to Electrode and Ninjask, but there Pokemon are not that big of a deal. Their usage is respectively 4.36376% and 3.84366% for the month of April. But usage aside, they aren't even used much in tournament play because they have a lot less benefits than they do drawbacks. The low usage of Electrode and Ninjask aside, Swellow is incredibly fast and hits incredibly hard.

Another huge benefit of Swellow is its two fantastic STAB moves, Brave Bird and Facade, which both have a very high Base Power. Once its counters are removed and its checks are worn down, Swellow can sweep pretty easily. I have been using it to great success in my favorite team I have constructed since the last tier changes, and it's not hard to see why. I have been using Swellow with hazard support from Golem and Scolipede, two of the best offensive hazard users in the tier. The best part about the support that Swellow needs is that it's not coming from Pokemon who weigh the team down. Yes, much like practically every other Pokemon in the tier, Swellow requires support in order to success. But the support it needs is helpful for any Pokemon.

But it can also cause a lot of switches thanks to U-turn. If the opponent has a Rock-type on their team, it is going to take a lot of damage from switching into Spikes and Stealth Rock repeatedly. Meanwhile, Swellow can just U-turn to force another switch and punish the opponent for trying to check Swellow. Of course, this can backfire and cause hazard damage to add up on Swellow as well, so if you were unable to prevent Stealth Rock from being set, it's usually a good idea to leave Swellow waiting in the wings until later on in the game.

Finally, Swellow has a fail-safe against priority users outside of those who use Fake Out. Quick Attack is in Swellow's arsenal, and it's not something to be taken lightly. A lot of people look down on the move thanks to its widespread availability among Pokemon who are poor choices to use even in-game, but it's a great move on Swellow. One of the coolest part about it, outside of being able to beat common Choice Scarf users, is bypassing Sucker Punch. Even if it doesn't KO the user, Sucker Punch will fail because the opponent will be slower than Swellow in practically every instance.

Overall, Swellow's great power and fantastic Speed are more than enough to keep it in A-Rank in my opinion. Sure, it can be taken out with priority moves thanks to its frailty. But with its own priority, the ability to scout against its checks with U-Turn, and two fantastic STAB moves, it is definitely a force to be reckoned with. Swellow deserves to stay A-Rank. Now give it Encore and it will be one of my favorite Pokemon overall.

Ultimately, these are the Pokemon with which I have the most experience. I have used the B-Rank Pokemon plenty as well, but I don't know them nearly as well as these ones and the ones about which I previously posted. I can post on the B-Rank starred Pokemon as well, but that will be something I save for another day. There's a lot in discussion and a lot to discuss now anyways.

 

[vyomov]

Not exactly: Throh's more bulky on the special side of things while Gurdurr handles physical stuff better, give and take so hence both are B-Rank.
Carracosta should be A-Rank, simply because Carracosta finds it VERY difficult to set up, especially since it's weak to priority and after the drop in defense is OHKOed by most things, especially on the special side.

 

[Farobi]

Seismitoad also succeeds using an offensive Rain Dance set, which is capable of tearing offensive teams left and right. I had my doubts, but I ultimately am going to agree with Treecko that Seismitoad deserves S-Rank, albeit a low one. Seismitoad still struggles with certain bulky Grass types (Serperior / Eggy) and doesn't have the best offensive stats, but it is capable of doing multiple roles effectively while still keeping the likes of certain Samurott, Carracosta, Golurk, Scolipede (if running phys. def.) and other prominent threats in check.

Swellow is without a single doubt in my mind an A-Rank Pokemon. It may not have the coverage and natural power that Braviary has, but Swellow performs so much more better in this meta due to its ability to outspeed key threats (Scolipede, Serperior, non-Scarf Jynx, yadayada) as well as its ability to hit really strong with its status-boosted Facade and Brave Bird. If only it had Drill Run ;.;

Golurk to S is something I disagree with. It definitely has potential to be a devestating Pokemon, but its typing is a complete mixed bag. If you choose it to be your hazard setter, how will you check the likes of Kangaskhan / Swellow? Its weaknesses to Ice, Water, and Grass really hinder its walling capability as well (also do note that this is the viability of each Pokemon, so slapping a Jynx on a team doesn't work). Its ability to check Primeape, Centipede, and Sawk, Rotom-Fan etc. thanks to its typing is something to note though. Its coverage is also really good, and its power is definitely something to note, but overall its an A-Rank in my book, but I can definitely see it going to S if there are more arguments supporting it!

 

[Punchshroom]

Sorry I couldn't reply to these sooner but time for long post!

Anyway, I'm not sure how a Shell Smash is harder to set up than a Swords Dance. Looking at the current rankings, Carracosta can set up on: Scolipede, Kangaskhan, Some Jynx, Braviary, Charizard, Garbodor, Haunter, Regirock, Swellow, Tauros. That's just S/A, and I didn't include some of the iffy matchups like choice locked Primeape, Zangoose, etc.
Alright, here are these matchups that would truly be safe for Carracosta to set up on:
Scolipede - I admit the previous example I used of Scolipede doing 40.83 - 48.78% with Megahorn was frankly a stupid one, but there is still a way for Scolipede to beat Carracosta: Substitute. How it goes: 1) Pede sets up Sub, Costa smashes. 2) Costa breaks Sub, Pede sets up Sub again. This protects Scolipede from being revenged by Aqua Jet, until Costa has either worn itself down with LO and/or Pede inching itself into Swarm for Megahorn to land the KO. You can avoid this situation by attacking right away, but point is you don't manage to set up. Attacking straight into a Megahorn / Earthquake would also blow your setup chance.

Kangaskhan - This is one of the safer matchups for Costa, although the Kanga player can put up resistance by switching out after a Smash, Fake Outing you, and plays mindgames with Sucker Punch against your Aqua Jet. Costa also flops against SubPunch Kanga.

Jynx - ...You can't be serious, when has Carracosta ever been able to setup safely when Jynx is around? If Lovely Kiss doesn't stop you, Focus Blast or Psychic would. Choice-locked Jynx are usually Scarfed, meaning they have no qualms with switching out and coming back in to revenge with Psychic, soaking up Aqua Jet to boot. Jynx can also use Substitute to destroy Carracosta by being able to strike his -1 defenses.

Braviary - SubBU Braviary is the more common variant now, and even then Braviary can shave a good amount of health off Carracosta with Substitute (I swear this is looking like Costa's Achilles Heel) to stall out LO, not enough to get KOed by Aqua Jet, and go for Brave Bird, dealing a good net 50~% to Carra, just for beating one pokemon. Obviously be cautious against Superpower Braviary, but luckily it is rather easily telegraphed.

Charizard - Until you have deduced the Charizard is Choiced, physical, or SunnyBeamer without Sun, the threat of Focus Blast or Hidden Power Grass usually forces you to KO Zard instead of setting up.

Garbodor - It all depends on whether Garbo has Toxic, Clear Smog or neither.

Haunter - Haunter can perform a last ditch effort with Destiny Bond to stop your Smash sweep. Choiced Haunters that have yet to attack can Trick you the Scarf to screw you over.

Regirock - So far I haven't seen a single Regirock that doesn't utilise Thunder Wave, since that move is fairly unique amongst its Rock brethren.

Swellow - Swellow is a mixed bag: on one hand, it is Carra's best setup opportunity; on the other, you often find yourself switching into Swellow because of its resistance that shields its teammates from being destroyed, but Swellow would either U-Turn to land chip damage on Carra and prevent its setup with a teammate, or Swellow hits Carra with boosted Facade, dealing 34.6 - 40.83%. Now it doesn't look too much at first, but consider what would happen if Swellow Facades you again as you try to Smash? You'd be near dead, with only 2-3 hits left in you, that should still be enough for late game right? Nope, Swellow Quick Attacks you (because it's still faster than you!) at -1 Def for 14.87 - 17.64% and you end up dying to LO recoil. I mean, what is this?? A Rock-type sweeper that can't reliably set up against one of, if not the premier Normal/Flying type of NU? This means that when Swellow comes in, either you kill it immediately and waste Carracosta, or setup Carra reliably by saccing your teammate, despite having a Rock-type on your team to prevent Swellow casualties anyway. For shame, Carra.

Tauros - Tauros is a fairly favourable matchup for Carra, even though LO Earthquake hurts a lot. Then again, SubEndeavor does exist.....¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Carracosta doesn't really "safely" set up against most of these examples, I mean really, Jynx? Also, pretty much anything with status ruins Costa's chances at a sweep.

I would respond to Punchshroom's post but to be frank he made the same tired old points and didn't address anything new, except for:

"Shell Smash may be a powerful move, but Carracosta really struggles to make use of it better than most other pokemon that have access to this move."

and

"Ever get that sweet feeling where your Zweilous goes on its unstoppable rampage"

which make me think it's not actually a serious post.

Now that's just rude. :[ The thing I see in Carra is that he has alright bulk and crap speed pre-Smash, and lesser defenses and high but not unstoppable speed post-Smash, hence why I say he sort of struggles with this move (Gorebyss at least actually requires Scarfers, or Electrode if not running max speed, to outspeed it, while Substitute gives Gorebyss more or less the same kind of buffer Carracosta's Aqua Jet provides). I suppose the accuracy of Stone Edge is not supposed to play into a pokemon's ranking, but when I see that Terrakion, another pokemon who relies heavily on Stone Edge, does not have to worry about most other risks, while Carracosta has to contend for his risky setup move and Stone Edge's accuracy at the same time, I can't help but feel that it isn't as low-risk as its S-Rank title would suggest (granted it is undoubtedly high-reward).

@EBeast: You mentioned Scarf Jynx as a premier Scarfer due to her ability to handle Carracosta; I just used her because she finally gave us a fast Ice attacker (Rotom-Frost doesn't cut it really).

Seismitoad also succeeds using an offensive Rain Dance set, which is capable of tearing offensive teams left and right. I had my doubts, but I ultimately am going to agree with Treecko that Seismitoad deserves S-Rank, albeit a low one. Seismitoad still struggles with certain bulky Grass types (Serperior / Eggy) and doesn't have the best offensive stats, but it is capable of doing multiple roles effectively while still keeping the likes of certain Samurott, Carracosta, Golurk, Scolipede (if running phys. def.) and other prominent threats in check.

Seismitoad's ability to fit onto offensive and defensive teams alike only goes to show how balanced Seismitoad is. Its only real flaws are its vulnerability to Grass types, lack of reliable recovery, and inability to boost its stats (which Kanga has proven to not be essential for an S-Rank). Aside from that, it has adequate support and offensive options in Scald, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Surf/Hydro Pump, Earthquake/Earth Power, Sludge Bomb/Wave, and even Grass Knot, and is able to stop or sweep a good number of threats. Seismitoad has a shot at S-Rank.

Swellow is without a single doubt in my mind an A-Rank Pokemon. It may not have the coverage and natural power that Braviary has, but Swellow performs so much more better in this meta due to its ability to outspeed key threats (Scolipede, Serperior, non-Scarf Jynx, yadayada) as well as its ability to hit really strong with its status-boosted Facade and Brave Bird. If only it had Drill Run ;.;

I believe Swellow is a pretty solid A-Ranker as well. Its inability to really hit most Rocks and Steels hard is mitigated by the fact that it hits pretty much any non Normal/Flying resistor that isn't Alomomola astoundingly hard. Anything that can OHKO Eelektross without any boosting is enough to demonstrate its power. Swellow's presence in NU is always felt, and you people said Carracosta is dominating.

Golurk to S is something I disagree with. It definitely has potential to be a devestating Pokemon, but its typing is a complete mixed bag. If you choose it to be your hazard setter, how will you check the likes of Kangaskhan / Swellow? Its weaknesses to Ice, Water, and Grass really hinder its walling capability as well (also do note that this is the viability of each Pokemon, so slapping a Jynx on a team doesn't work). Its ability to check Primeape, Centipede, and Sawk, Rotom-Fan etc. thanks to its typing is something to note though. Its coverage is also really good, and its power is definitely something to note, but overall its an A-Rank in my book, but I can definitely see it going to S if there are more arguments supporting it!

Now I'm conflicted again. Its weaknesses certainly hold it back given the ubiquity of Waters, Serperiors and Jynxes. On the other hand, Golurk is able to do work against pretty much anything else. It can Stealth Rock, spinblock its own SR, prevent the opponent's SR, all while packing tremendous offensive presence and coverage. Golurk is capable of doing at least something in almost any NU match. Golurk is also remarkably difficult to switch into: things that can KO it fast can't switch in, while things that can switch in can't KO it fast. This is discounting No Guard Dynamicpunch as well. I think Golurk also has a shot at S-Rank.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I'd agree that Golurk can function in many different roles. It works as a great anti-lead since the DynamicPunch set can screw over most if not all stealth rockers. It can function as a solid counter to newcomers Primeape and Scolipede. It can Spinblock and beat both of NU's common rapid spin users (not boosted Torkoal though). It can even serve as an effective wallbreaker with a Choice Band. Almost nothing likes switching into a combo of DynamicPunch and Shadow Punch. However, I am a little doubtful because of the rise in popularity of Samurott, Serperior, Seismitoad, Jynx and Kanga; none can switch in but they all can come in after a teammate has been sacked and force it out, giving a free setup opportunity. Misdreavus, with a now popular Foul Play set, can come in on Golurk, burn it, and Foul Play. The inability to counter Braviary and Swellow also means that there needs to be an extra Rock-type teamslot to counter them. I'm a little on the fence for this one, since Golurk doesn't have many safe switch-ins, yet it is forced out by common threats as well. Despite the fact that Golurk packs so much power and versatility, the fact that it loses to so many things once they get a free switch makes me think it deserves an A-rank.

Seismitoad is a very good Pokemon. I personally like its offensive sets but it has a great ability to go defensive as well. My only qualm is that it lacks recovery outside of Rest, but its strengths pretty much patch up its flaws and can be fit onto teams easily. S-rank sounds good.

Yeah, Swellow for A-rank. Its inability to hurt Steels and Rocks, fraility as well as being subject to huge amounts of indirect damage (Toxic, SR, Brave Bird recoil) hold it back, but it has immense power, is a momentum provider, has a good priority move and is able to perform very well against most of the meta. A-rank looks good.

 

[Infernis]

Golurk to S is something I disagree with.
...
If you choose it to be your hazard setter, how will you check the likes of Kangaskhan / Swellow?

CB Golurk can OHKO the former with Drain Punch and the latter with anything but Earthquake or Shadow Punch.

Even the Support set can 2HKO Kanga with Drain Punch or Earthquake, or go for the OHKO with Dynamic Punch. (Only guaranteed after hazards, but the confusion is nice.) Drain Punch is particularly effective since Kanga will be attacking first and it gives Golurk a chance to heal. Swellow can only deal about 50% on the first turn with Brave Bird, which gives you ample opportunity to OHKO with Ice Punch or finish it off after that recoil with Dynamic Punch.

Also, on the subject of Serperior vs. Golurk: CB Golurk can OHKO practically every set with Ice Punch, even before hazards. Shadow Punch will very cleanly 2HKO, which is enough on a switch since Serperior can't drain enough with Giga Drain to survive the next one. If they try to set up subs, just smash them apart. Golurk can take a hit from Serperior once if he has to.

On the subject of Misdreavus vs. Golurk: Sure, Misdreavus can be dangerous on a free switch. But CB Golurk is one of only three unboosted attackers in NU that can OHKO Misdreavus after rocks. (Along with CB Rampardos' Head Smash and Eggy's Specs Leaf Storm.) If they don't have Will-O-Wisp, or they switch in expecting a different move, Misdreavus is done for.

On the subject of Samurott vs. Golurk: SD Samurott is dangerous with Waterfall, but if you think they'll try to set up on a supposed switch, just KO Samurott with a CB Earthquake. Even without CB, it'll lay down some serious hurt. Golurk cannot handle the special sets, so be sure to know what they're running.

On the subject of Seismitoad vs. Golurk: As per usual, Golurk can deal massive damage with a CB Earthquake (80-90%, or a OHKO on offensive sets). As far as I know, most Seismitoad run minimum speed at 184 unless they're rain dance sweepers. Golurk can kill Seismitoad while it sets up RD, so it's fairly safe to assume that Golurk will be faster with proper EVs. (156 speed EVs.)

On the subject of Jynx vs. Golurk: Jynx wins, if Jynx attacks with Ice Beam. But Golurk would switch out, right? Maybe Jynx uses Focus Blast on the predicted Torkoal switch or whatever. That would be a wrong decision, considering everything but Ice Punch can kill Jynx at least twice. (Meaning that all of CB Golurk's not-ice-punch moves are also OHKOs from other Golurk.)