Yeah, but the only thing that I don't like about CB Breloom is that it can't utilise Spore to it's maximum effect. I mean, you can still run Spore, but it's nowhere near as effective. The reason for this is simple: Spore not only puts a pokemon to sleep (almost like an instant KO, if you play your cards right), but it also buys you a free turn on the switch. With Choice Band however, because you get locked in to the move (and because of sleep clause) you essentially lose this 'free turn', as you're forced to switch out after sleeping something. Not that I'm saying that CB is bad, just pointing out one particular limitation; in fact, CB is really good. I am curious to know though, whether people think that Spore is still advisable on CB Breloom, despite getting locked into the move and such?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Breloom
- Thread starter Manaphy
- Start date
Yeah, but the only thing that I don't like about CB Breloom is that it can't utilise Spore to it's maximum effect. I mean, you can still run Spore, but it's nowhere near as effective. The reason for this is simple: Spore not only puts a pokemon to sleep (almost like an instant KO, if you play your cards right), but it also buys you a free turn on the switch. With Choice Band however, because you get locked in to the move (and because of sleep clause) you essentially lose this 'free turn', as you're forced to switch out after sleeping something. Not that I'm saying that CB is bad, just pointing out one particular limitation; in fact, CB is really good. I am curious to know though, whether people think that Spore is still advisable on CB Breloom, despite getting locked into the move and such?
I always use Stone Edge over Spore with Choice Band. Spore feels like a wasted move compared to the coverage you get from SE.
You don't need to run spore on Choice Band sets, and it's often counterproductive anyway. When Breloom comes in, your opponent doesn't know it doesn't have spore, and they will typically be expecting spore to be your first move, so they will switch in something to take the spore, but get smacked with a choice banded move instead.
Surprised that with the hype regarding Technician Breloom and its corresponding high use on the ladder, not much discussion has taken place recently. bump time.
Anyway, what I came to say is that I have been dissapointed in Techniloom. It wasn't pulling out the sweeps that I thought it would have been able to considering the hype around it (perhaps it was over-prepared for?). STAB Technician Mach Punch is cool, but I just found it too weak to really do damage with. However as a revenge killing tool it was neat-o. The set I was using was the SporeSD set. Here are the thing I really miss about Poison Heal Breloom that makes it almost better in my eyes:
Well that's my perpective. Just wondering if anyone might share my (pretty sure it is) unique view since Technician has been hyped up for awhile.
Anyway, what I came to say is that I have been dissapointed in Techniloom. It wasn't pulling out the sweeps that I thought it would have been able to considering the hype around it (perhaps it was over-prepared for?). STAB Technician Mach Punch is cool, but I just found it too weak to really do damage with. However as a revenge killing tool it was neat-o. The set I was using was the SporeSD set. Here are the thing I really miss about Poison Heal Breloom that makes it almost better in my eyes:
- Much better "power" STAB in Fighting. One of Technician Breloom's claim to fame is firing off absurdly powerful Bullet Seeds. IIRC 5 hits is equivalent to 187 base power. However, Grass finds itself resisted by a ton of stuff, leading its great base power to be cut. Meanwhile, Focus Punch is Fighting-type move, meaning it has much greater neutrality and it has the ability to just smash bulky steels. I found Focus Punch Breloom doing more damage overall across a match, even when spamming Bullet Seed with LO, Teched Breloom. I found Poison Heal Breloom could get up Subs consistently enough to make Focus Punch's power noticed.
- The ability to consistently switch into Scald. This was a deal breaker for me with Technician Breloom. Allow me to explain. Part of the appeal to having a Grass-type on a team in OU is to remove bulky waters for teammates and to be able to switch on them, especially ones with Scald with that aggrvating burn. Natural Cure Celebi, Shaymin, Roserade, and Poison Heal Breloom were all able to do this safely which is what made them great at removing bulky waters and good team mates. By extension, this is what made Virizion suck. To be safe to remove the bulky waters, SD Virizion and sometimes CM Virizion had to run a Lum Berry. But by running Lum Berry, you really missed out on a lot of power. Breloom suffers a similar issue. Without Lum Berry it can't come in on and safely remove bulky waters for teammates, but without Life Orb it is much more difficult to get a sweep going as well as break down stuff with Bullet Seed.
- Much better survivability and easier prediction. Wow I did not realize how frail Breloom was without any sort of HP invesment :o. It pretty much makes Spore necessary if you want to get an SD off, but that isn't the issue. The real issue is that I'm afraid even a resisted STAB attack/neutral coverage attack is going to shave off 40% from it. Poison Heal Breloom doesn't suffer with this dilemma because of the amount of healing from well, Poison Heal, and it can run some bulk without becoming weak. Substitute also ties into this, protecting you from any hits that could do some damage to Breloom. I also like how with Substitute and Poison Heal, you can ease prediction a lot and can potentially recover from any mistakes/predictions.
Well that's my perpective. Just wondering if anyone might share my (pretty sure it is) unique view since Technician has been hyped up for awhile.
I must agree with you, at least somewhat. I have recently been trying Technician Breloom on a freshly built team where, in theory, it should function well.
As you pointed out though, the lack of ability to take any sort of moderately strong neutral hit along with the fact that you have to work around status so much is a pain in the ass. For this reason I am tempted to try sub punch breloom instead because I know how deadly that guy can be. Without using a team built for Techloom it seems that he does not just slot into a team supporter as he "should".
However, that mach punch is sexy and I love the ability to Spore and Stun Spore switches (using double status at the moment).
I wonder if scizor is still more appropriate when it comes to priority.
As you pointed out though, the lack of ability to take any sort of moderately strong neutral hit along with the fact that you have to work around status so much is a pain in the ass. For this reason I am tempted to try sub punch breloom instead because I know how deadly that guy can be. Without using a team built for Techloom it seems that he does not just slot into a team supporter as he "should".
However, that mach punch is sexy and I love the ability to Spore and Stun Spore switches (using double status at the moment).
I wonder if scizor is still more appropriate when it comes to priority.
In the fourth gen analysis within the AC of the Double Powder set, there is a mention of a bulkier Breloom set. I think if you were to use that using double powder now, that definitely is the way to go:
Breloom (F) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 236 HP / 96 Atk / 104 SDef / 72 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stun Spore
- Spore
- Drain Punch / Superpower
- Seed Bomb / Stone Edge
I can understand why would want to use Technician on this for a bootsed Force Palm and to unleash Bullet Seed from the get go, but with a bulkier spread it looks like it would be even more aggravating to deal with. Now the EV spread looks really wacky and could probably fixed up a bit since I've just made it up on the spot :s 236 HP is to hit a Poison Heal number and to maximize bulk. Meanwhile, 72 Speed is used to speed creep the speed creeping (xD) Sp. Def Heatran which are all the rage right now with Genesect.
This looks very interesting Ames I am definitively going to try this out thanks for leading me on to it! During the playtest I'll see if it is more hit and run in nature for Superpower to be better and see if Dragonite switches in enough to make Stone Edge first (though hitting Jellicent and Tentacruel hard may be too good to pass up).
That double powder set certainly looks interesting, but what exactly does it have over Amoonguss? Amoonguss can pull off the same double powder strategy, but it's far bulkier and has Regenerator. In addition, Amoonguss can absorb Toxic Spikes.
Anyway, I've used Techniloom, and I must say it's actually quite disappointing. I was hyping it a lot because it would theoretically function as a better offensively-oriented Terrakion check than Scizor, but in reality, you realize that so many Pokemon resist both Mach Punch and Bullet Seed (i.e. Celebi, Lati twins, Dragonite, Salamence, Tornadus-T, Venusaur, etc.). As we have already seen in Nasty Plot Lucario, Fighting-type priority gets terrible coverage in OU. In addition, Breloom's typing is awful defensively, bringing it six resistances and five weaknesses, one of those weaknesses being a nasty 4x weakness to Flying. It also has some of the worst defenses conceivable (60/80/60). Pretty much any attack OHKOes Breloom, and at the same time Breloom is incredibly slow by OU standards. Combine that with Mach Punch resists being literally everywhere, and I just found Breloom being forced to switch a lot. I mean, sure, you have Spore, but when Sleep Clause is active, any decent Mach Punch resist that outspeeds Breloom can certainly beat it. Oh, and, Ice Shard weakness.
I dunno, but I still find Scizor to be better, just because Bullet Punch at least hits far more fast sweepers at least neutrally. Don't make me list them all. In addition, Scizor's typing is far better, boasting nine resistances, one immunity, and only a single weakness (though it is a 4x weakness to Fire). Plus, Scizor can use U-turn. Can Breloom U-turn?
Anyway, I've used Techniloom, and I must say it's actually quite disappointing. I was hyping it a lot because it would theoretically function as a better offensively-oriented Terrakion check than Scizor, but in reality, you realize that so many Pokemon resist both Mach Punch and Bullet Seed (i.e. Celebi, Lati twins, Dragonite, Salamence, Tornadus-T, Venusaur, etc.). As we have already seen in Nasty Plot Lucario, Fighting-type priority gets terrible coverage in OU. In addition, Breloom's typing is awful defensively, bringing it six resistances and five weaknesses, one of those weaknesses being a nasty 4x weakness to Flying. It also has some of the worst defenses conceivable (60/80/60). Pretty much any attack OHKOes Breloom, and at the same time Breloom is incredibly slow by OU standards. Combine that with Mach Punch resists being literally everywhere, and I just found Breloom being forced to switch a lot. I mean, sure, you have Spore, but when Sleep Clause is active, any decent Mach Punch resist that outspeeds Breloom can certainly beat it. Oh, and, Ice Shard weakness.
I dunno, but I still find Scizor to be better, just because Bullet Punch at least hits far more fast sweepers at least neutrally. Don't make me list them all. In addition, Scizor's typing is far better, boasting nine resistances, one immunity, and only a single weakness (though it is a 4x weakness to Fire). Plus, Scizor can use U-turn. Can Breloom U-turn?
That was my initial thought as well. However while Breloom does not have the bulk of Amoonguss, it does have much more threatening offenses. In addition it does not get burned by bulky waters and it can beat Ferrothorn 1 vs 1 who might be a hindrance to Amoonguss' double powder. Actually most Steel-types fear coming in on Breloom's Fighting STAB (you can even
Breloom typing is actually good defensively because of many unique resists, but the problem (as we have reiterated) is that without any investment it literally has worse defenses than Lucario. Scizor can definitely play the boosting and revenge killing game better, it just has the bulk and the typing to do so (i.e. more sweepers are affected by bullet than mach punch). However as a hole-puncher Breloom has Scizor beat IMO. Fighting STAB+"wallbreaker" move in Bullet Seed has Scizor beat with his STAB U-turn (although U-turn is great for switch-initiative). I'm willing to bet that Techniloom will live on as a CB user.
It is interesting to note that Conkeldurr has many of the traits that we desire in Breloom. Better bulk and survivability (<3 Drain Punch), ability to set up on bulky waters with Guts, and a pseudo-resistance to other priority moves with Bulk Up defense boosts. In addition, getting past Gliscor isn't exclusive to Techniloom (through Bullet Seed) now either since Conkeldurr has Ice Punch now. Although, Conkeldurr doesn't have a secondary STAB and limits his ability to take on certain bulky waters with Ice Punch (Jellicent-Tentacruel). However, from recent play Conkeldurr has seemed much more threatening to teams and more sweeps in (surprisingly) than Breloom has.
edit: thought this was funny :p
it just got here :p
Okay, I saw that a few of you guys mentioned that Scizor has better coverage with Bullet Punch than Breloom does with Mach Punch.
Wut.
At the risk of stepping way beyond my bounds, you guys are using Breloom wrong: Breloom is a wall-breaker, probably the best in OU. So many of the fast, offensive Pokemon that give Techniloom trouble are just that: Fast Pokemon with high attacking stats and a typing that gives them a Fighting resist, like Dragonite, Latios, and Tornadus(-T). Scizor has the move pool (Technician STAB Bullet Punch, which has strangely good coverage against OU's hi-speed offensive crowd), typing (probably the best defensive typing in the game), and stats to serve as the game's best revenge killer.
You guys are talking about using Tyranitar as a DD sweeper in BW. Sure, he has the moves, but it's just not practical.
Breloom, on the other hand, makes every. Single. Wall. Weep. The only defensive Pokemon that really gives Breloom trouble is fast Deoxys-D, in which case he's lacking the bulk to wall another member of your team properly. If you switch him in on Low Sweep expecting to wall a Mach Punch, you lose either way because Low Sweep 2HKOs. LOW SWEEP.
Understand me, I feel where you guys are coming from when you express frustration at Breloom's ability to sweep. Finding that joker with a team completely without Fighting resists is really rare. But I promise you, try this set out:
Breloom @ (Life Orb)
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Low Sweep
Nothing but Scarfers that resist Fighting, REALLY fast Pokemon like Starmie or Tornadus-T that ALSO resist Fighting, or defensive Pokemon that resist both STABs (Um... Celebi?) can safely switch in. If they eat a Low Sweep and don't still outspeed (by my calculations, 252+ base 115s sit at 240 at -1), they face a Bullet Seed which WILL hurt, resisted or not. If they doubly resist Bullet Seed, there's an excellent chance they didn't resist Low Sweep (and by extension Mach Punch), so that's that (there are three OU Pokes, Dragonite, Salamence, and Volcarona, that can boast such a feat). If they WERE expecting a Low Sweep/Mach Punch and end up taking an unresisted Bullet Seed on the switch, well... 252/252+ Mew is OHKO'd after Rocks with a 3-hit Bullet Seed.
tl;dr Unless you are Jesus at getting rid of Fighting resists, Techniloom is a wall-breaker, not a sweeper. Leave Swords Dance sweeping to faster Pokemon.
Wut.
At the risk of stepping way beyond my bounds, you guys are using Breloom wrong: Breloom is a wall-breaker, probably the best in OU. So many of the fast, offensive Pokemon that give Techniloom trouble are just that: Fast Pokemon with high attacking stats and a typing that gives them a Fighting resist, like Dragonite, Latios, and Tornadus(-T). Scizor has the move pool (Technician STAB Bullet Punch, which has strangely good coverage against OU's hi-speed offensive crowd), typing (probably the best defensive typing in the game), and stats to serve as the game's best revenge killer.
You guys are talking about using Tyranitar as a DD sweeper in BW. Sure, he has the moves, but it's just not practical.
Breloom, on the other hand, makes every. Single. Wall. Weep. The only defensive Pokemon that really gives Breloom trouble is fast Deoxys-D, in which case he's lacking the bulk to wall another member of your team properly. If you switch him in on Low Sweep expecting to wall a Mach Punch, you lose either way because Low Sweep 2HKOs. LOW SWEEP.
Understand me, I feel where you guys are coming from when you express frustration at Breloom's ability to sweep. Finding that joker with a team completely without Fighting resists is really rare. But I promise you, try this set out:
Breloom @ (Life Orb)
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Low Sweep
Nothing but Scarfers that resist Fighting, REALLY fast Pokemon like Starmie or Tornadus-T that ALSO resist Fighting, or defensive Pokemon that resist both STABs (Um... Celebi?) can safely switch in. If they eat a Low Sweep and don't still outspeed (by my calculations, 252+ base 115s sit at 240 at -1), they face a Bullet Seed which WILL hurt, resisted or not. If they doubly resist Bullet Seed, there's an excellent chance they didn't resist Low Sweep (and by extension Mach Punch), so that's that (there are three OU Pokes, Dragonite, Salamence, and Volcarona, that can boast such a feat). If they WERE expecting a Low Sweep/Mach Punch and end up taking an unresisted Bullet Seed on the switch, well... 252/252+ Mew is OHKO'd after Rocks with a 3-hit Bullet Seed.
tl;dr Unless you are Jesus at getting rid of Fighting resists, Techniloom is a wall-breaker, not a sweeper. Leave Swords Dance sweeping to faster Pokemon.
EDIT: Of course, Pillsbury says what I do in about 5% of the words because I'm taking forever at writing this friggin' thing and I can't get a GD thought down on paper.
Breloom's a wall-breaker, ladies and gentlemen.
you know, all these people are listing "counters" to techniloom, when in reality those counters barely exists outside of our heads anymore. think about it: who is the most common pokemon right now in the ou metagame that also "counters" techniloom? answer: tornadus-t. now take a look at the rest of the list. things that you mention, such as celebi, amoonguss, even latios, are all taking a huge dive in usage because of the rise of tornadus-t and the fact that it's on almost every other team right now. celebi is ohko'd, amoonguss is ohko'd, latios doesn't like being u-turned on for 50% and/or hurricane'd for 75%. despite being a "counter" to techniloom, tornadus-t is actually doing it a huge favor by immensely lowering usage of its other "counters". that's why, contrary to popular belief, techniloom is more effective in the current metagame than ever before. once its few still-used "counters" are eliminated, it can sweep so maddeningly easily. just weaken tornadus-t, eliminate other threats such as gliscor and skarmory with gothitelle or whatever, and spore something. swords dance and spam mach punch. gg.
i don't know why people think techniloom is supposed to be a wall-breaker. let other stuff break the walls. breloom was meant to sweep.
i don't know why people think techniloom is supposed to be a wall-breaker. let other stuff break the walls. breloom was meant to sweep.
Techniloom wrecks the meta.
And if one is fortunate enough to get 5 hits with Bullet Seed, say goodbye to a reliable counter (e.g. Tornadus-T).
Often times I'll get Breloom in on a safe switch just to abuse spore and switch out (switch-ins are extremely predictable). It is best used to revenge threats or clean up lategame anyway. I rarely find myself even needing the SD boost with the power boost LO provides.
And if one is fortunate enough to get 5 hits with Bullet Seed, say goodbye to a reliable counter (e.g. Tornadus-T).
Often times I'll get Breloom in on a safe switch just to abuse spore and switch out (switch-ins are extremely predictable). It is best used to revenge threats or clean up lategame anyway. I rarely find myself even needing the SD boost with the power boost LO provides.
My view is that Breloom is a veristile Pokemon overall, and that the Techniloom set is less an out and out sweeper and more a wall breaker with sweeping potential, similar to non-skarfed Terrakion (but with Priority and less bulk). It differs from other late game sweepers in that it can revenge kill mid-game should it be needed. It might not have a lot of bulk without investment, but it has resistances, which is all it needs to set up and wreak havoc.
However it's pretty clear at this point that Breloom isn't the terrifying metagame dominating threat we thought it would be. It's still nothing to be trifled with though.
EDIT: I just realized that we were hyping a Pokemon with less than 500 BST to be a metagame shaking threat. Breloom is probably the best example we have of how abilities and moves can make a Pokemon in lieu of high base stats!
However it's pretty clear at this point that Breloom isn't the terrifying metagame dominating threat we thought it would be. It's still nothing to be trifled with though.
EDIT: I just realized that we were hyping a Pokemon with less than 500 BST to be a metagame shaking threat. Breloom is probably the best example we have of how abilities and moves can make a Pokemon in lieu of high base stats!
Pretty much agreeing with Jimera here. Sure, Techniloom can sweep, but it's much better suited for wallbreaking. The Band set in particular is great at this since it just smacks stuff around off the bat and can afford to run Jolly to effectively lure in and KO Tornadus-T, a supposed counter, with Low Sweep. It can also run Stone Edge over Spore on the CB set to mess up non-defensive Celebi expecting to absorb a Spore or non-boosted STAB move. It even has an easier time revenge killing and sweeping late-game with CB since it doesn't need a turn to setup SD and has a stronger Mach Punch right off the bat.
ive tried running subloom and techloom tech works so much better. one of the biggest problems i had when running sub, was that he was revenged allmost as soon as he took out the first pokemon. i beleive it should just be the first hit in with as much damage as possible. with that the only problem i see is many special psychic types in the ou.
Sweep? With Grass + Mach Punch coverage and Mach Punch being your only hope to deal with anything faster than you? Lolno. It has so many checks that its almost impossible to sweep unless your opponent has < 2 pokemon left, and by then you can sweep with pretty much any late game sweeper. You use Techloom to wall-break, check threats like Terrakion and Cloyster, and to rack up hazard damage.
I honestly like Poison Heal Loom better, because the ability to switch into Scalds is just excellent.
No means to be offensive, but that's probably because your team synchronizes better with TechLoom then PHLoom. I've tried both, and on my team PHLoom works alot better. I'm using Spore / Substitute / Leech Seed / Focus Punch at the moment, and my god that thing is so good.
The biggest issue I have faced with Techniloom is its fraility and lack of recovery, weakness to status, and lack of bulk. Without Poison Heal, it is unfortunately no longer a great teammate to use on a Sand Storm team. And when I ran Leftovers on it the loss of power was extremely noticeable. But the Life Orb damage made its life span extremely slim. (Much like SD Lucario)
Lack of recovery? It gets both drain punch and synthesis. It's only a matter of wanting to use recovery on the set or not.
He may not be a sweeper per se but TechLoom is an excellent late game cleaner. It picks off weakened foes with Mach Punch pretty easily. With Life Orb and Adamant:
Adamant Life Orb Mach Punch against 4 HP Latios: 27.81 - 32.78%
248 HP Scizor: 40.81 - 48.39% (2HKO if you can get it with Low Sweep on the switch)
4 HP Gyarados (Moxie): 25.37 - 29.9%
4 HP Tornadus-T: 25.37 - 29.9%
Again this isn't really showing off Breloom's raw power (which it does have in other moves) but the ability to pick off weakened Pokemon who resist it (three of which are listed) is pretty handy. Trust me, the very situations that I just listed happen quite often.
That's not all it does though. If you can get it in on some wall and use Spore, you've either incapacitated the wall or the switch in. If the wall stays in as you Spore, you get to use Low Sweep as they switch in their "counter" (these are few and far between). Breloom forces a lot of switches and to rack up hazard damage which allows it to do all of its jobs. It plays way differently than Poison Heal and shouldn't be compared besides the use of Spore.
Question: How come players run max speed on Technician Breloom? I didnt think with his low base speed even maxing it out would outspeed any noticeable threats. Wouldn't it be better to invest in bulk via HP EV's and only use speed EV's to outspeed key threats.
252 Speed EVs are a good idea if you run Low Sweep. If you don't, then less Speed EVs can be used, but it depends on who you want to Bullet Seed or Spore before being hit, of course
also to outrun adamant mamoswine, since you both destroy one another with your respective priority so whoever moves first wins. jolly mamo outruns you either way though ofc
Running Jolly 252 allows Breloom to outspeed Tornadus T after he hits Torna with a low sweep. Quite useful for the rare stone edge looms. I've always found SD loom to be the best set, but I tend to alternate between Life orb and fight gem. Lefties has never really hit it for me, as the drop in power is quite noticeable. I love using the low sweep stone edge set as well, as it catches Torna T off guard. The CB set is excellent as well, Low Sweep hits like a truck. I have yet to test the choice scarf set but the option to incapacitate a potent fast threat seems quite useful.
I run this set and it works amazingly for me.
Breloom @ life orb
Technician
252 attack 252 speed 4 HP
Jolly (+ Speed, - Special Attack)
-Spore
-Bullet seed
-Mach Punch
-Low Sweep
admittedly the team i have IS based around this loom as a wall breaker but he does his job excellently. Its very rare that he goes down without taking something else out of the match and even though he isn't meant as my sweeper, many times he does. I'll post some logs in a minute to show.
Breloom @ life orb
Technician
252 attack 252 speed 4 HP
Jolly (+ Speed, - Special Attack)
-Spore
-Bullet seed
-Mach Punch
-Low Sweep
admittedly the team i have IS based around this loom as a wall breaker but he does his job excellently. Its very rare that he goes down without taking something else out of the match and even though he isn't meant as my sweeper, many times he does. I'll post some logs in a minute to show.
Breloom is a great Pokemon no doubt, but I personally like using a different set than Technician on most of my more defensive or bulky teams. For one, Poison Heal sets are still great and really outshine Life Orb Sweeper Technician sets in some aspects. They can act as a complete Rotom-W counter and honestly is one of the most underrated Pokemon in today's metagame. The more offensive sets are not bad either. Mach Punch however has downfalls. Without a boost it struggles to take out anythung that resists it, which is quite the bunch in todays game. Salamence, Dragonite, Celebi and Tornadus - T all can take it with ease.