Blissey (EV spread discussion)

shrang

shrang

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Okay, I had a look in the usage stats, and what really surprised me was how people were using their Blisseys. This made me actually take a look at the analysis, and I was to be frank, quite disappointed when I saw the EV spread. The one on-site at the moment is highly inefficient. Even since DPP, the demand for Blissey to run Special Defense was apparent, when funny stuff like NP Hyper Beam Porygon-Z appeared. With an even more powerful metagame in BW (especially with weather), you'd expect that we keep that Special Defense, because it's important. The EV spread on-site right now makes Blissey die to so many things that it should not be dying to. Here are some calcs using the current spread:

Modest Choice Specs Politoed's Hydro Pump vs Blissey: 40.48% - 47.90% (2HKO after SR and Spikes)
Modest Choice Specs Rotom-W's Hydro Pump vs Blissey (rain): 44.96% - 52.94% (84% chance to 2HKO after SR)
Timid Flash Fire Heatran's Fire Blast vs Blissey (sun): 47.48% - 56.02% (2HKO after SR)
+1 Virizion's Focus Blast (Leftovers) vs Blissey: 49.58% - 58.26% (2HKO after SR)
Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor vs Blissey: 36.97% - 43.70% (Too much!)

Now, I know some of the more dangerous threats in the metagame are physically powerful (like Terrakion), but the thing is that Blissey should not be taking those guys on in the first place. While I'm not proposing another ridiculous spread like 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm (which makes you WAY too susceptible to Pursuit), Blissey does NOT need 714 HP. What do we need it for? Seriously, it doesn't help you take on physical attacks much at all. Blissey doesn't really need 63 extra HP, it doesn't do much. You may say it allows her to pass bigger Wishes, but again, is 326 HP not big enough? Do we really need 357 HP Wishes? What for?

So, I reckon the best spread for Blissey is 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm. I personally prefer Calm (since I play Ubers a lot), since that really makes Blissey takes special attacks like a champ, but I guess for OU, where the special attacks aren't as ridiculous as in Ubers, a Bold nature does just fine. Here are better looking calcs (I'm assuming 4 HP / 252 SpD Calm btw):

Modest Choice Specs Politoed's Hydro Pump vs Blissey: 33.74% - 39.72% (Guaranteed two hit survival with SR, Spikes and Leftovers)
Modest Choice Specs Rotom-W's Hydro Pump vs Blissey (rain): 37.27% - 43.87% (Guaranteed two hit survival with SR and Leftovers)
Timid Flash Fire Heatran's Fire Blast vs Blissey (sun): 39.26% - 46.47% (Guaranteed two hit survival with SR and Leftovers)
+1 Virizion's Focus Blast (Leftovers) vs Blissey: 41.41% - 48.77% (7% chance to 2HKO after SR)
Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor vs Blissey: 30.83% - 36.35% (Better)

This post also gives calculations.

So yeah, if QC could have a look at this and think about it, hopefully we can move to a better EV spread, because I don't think the one on-site is efficient. Take a look at the link at the top of the thread too. If there are anything that the extra 252 HP help achieve, these should be brought up as soon as possible!
 
I think I said this in the last thread, but 4 / 252 / 252 Bold is actually an inefficient spread. 252 / 252 / 4 Calm is better in every way, taking hits better on both sides. There may be another spread that takes hits even better (these are both extremes). You don't need to be QC to recognise this; it's an objective fact.

The spread on site is not inefficient. It gives Blissey the best possible physical defense. No EVs are being wasted (which is usually what I understand from "inefficient"). Whether the best possible physical defense is what we should be aiming for is another question entirely, of course.

x-act's applet is extremely useful for producing efficient spreads

edit: the size of blissey's wishes is also affected by the amount of HP investment. Obviously this only applies when running wish, but might swing the argument in favour of a max HP spread.

edit@ Burningman: Will you please do some calcs and actually look at the data rather than just asserting what produces "more defensive stats".
 
I am pretty sure that 4/252+/252 produces more defensive stats than 252/252/4+, simply because of Blisseys extremely high base HP.

I think Shrang is right here, the loss of physical bulk isn't that significant so blissey can still take a random physical attack and the higher special defense really seems to help fighting against the strong special attackers in this metagame.

The spread should really be at least mentioned in Blisseys analysis, because he is certainly worth that.
 
I don't think the Wish issue is a valid argument against 4/252/252. Blissey has 642 HP; way more than enough to pass massive Wishes to almost anything that wants to switch back in.
 
I completely agree with Shrang here, I was very disappointed on how in inefficient the spread is onsite. 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD is just soo much more efficient. I particularly think that Calm should be the main nature as it gives a 30 point boost in Special Defense compared to the only 5 point boost in Defense with a Bold nature. The spread onsite is almost as bad as the Fire Blast page onsite.
 
The Wish arguement is non-existent. 3/4 of OU, and maybe even more are fully healed even with Wishes from 4 HP Blissey. So Wish passing, even without HP evs was never an issue for Blissey.

The only thing we should be looking at right now is what Blissey can and what she should wall in this meta. Truth to be told, it is sad to see her 2hkoed by Toed or Heatran, and that's why i tend to agree with Shrang, but there is also Psyshock this gen, and Specs Latios loves using this against Bliss switch ins, so i am not sure. I don't have the time now, but someone should do some damage calcs for the pokes that Blissey is supposed to take on, so we can decide what ev spread is the best.
 
For those too lazy to look at calcs:

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold
Defense Score: 92820
Special Defense Score: 218484
Wish HP: 357

4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold
Defense Score: 84760
Special Defense Score: 240588
Wish HP: 326

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm
Defense Score: 84966
Special Defense Score: 240618
Wish HP: 357

(notably, jc104 is totally right; 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm is 100% better than 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold, assuming I did this right)

Between the other two sets:
Spread 1 has 1.0924 times the Defense Score of Spread 3
Spread 3 has 1.1013 times the Special Defense Score of Spread 1.
Rather obviously, they have equal HP.

The pick between them is similar to that of picking a nature. Pick whichever you feel is more relevant.

EDIT: lol I'm truly intelligent, aren't I
 
breh said:
For those too lazy to look at calcs:

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold
Defense Score: 92820
Special Defense Score: 218484
Wish HP: 357

4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold
Defense Score: 84760
Special Defense Score: 240588
Wish HP: 326

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm
Defense Score: 84966
Special Defense Score: 240618
Wish HP: 357

(notably, jc104 is totally right; 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm is 100% better than 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm, assuming I did this right)

Between the other two sets:
Spread 1 has 1.0924 times the Defense Score of Spread 3
Spread 3 has 1.1013 times the Special Defense Score of Spread 1.
Rather obviously, they have equal HP.

The pick between them is similar to that of picking a nature. Pick whichever you feel is more relevant.
Click to expand...

It's not just similar to picking a nature, it IS picking a nature. The only difference between the two spreads is that one runs Bold and the other runs Calm.

Anyway, clearly the calculations show that the idea that 4/252/252 Calm is the ideal spread are wrong.

Anyway, I'd like to point out one big thing that the psychical defense on Blissey gives you that the Calm spread doesn't.

CB Scizor's U-turn vs. Bold Blissey: 47%-56%
CB Scizor's U-turn vs. Calm Blissey: 52.24 - 61.76%

It lets you take Scizor's U-Turn and heal all your HP back with wi- hang on, the Calm Spread allows you to heal back all your health too with Wish. Jeeze, that's it? a measly 5%? damn, it really does look like Calm may be the superior option.
 
I think the most important thing about my proposed change is that without investment, Blissey is getting 2HKOed by things that it should have no problem walling, like Specs Politoed and Heatran in the sun, and all that stuff. Yes, Blissey does enjoy the additional physical defense, but the thing to remember about Blissey that it's a special wall, not a physical or mixed one. It shouldn't be taking on physical attacks in the first place. Even without the additional HP, she can still take on many unSTABed physical attacks anyway, as well as escaping most Pursuiters without taking too much. A special wall being killed by common special attackers (like Specs Politoed) is just missing the mark IMO.
 
@Jimera0 and Breh: Both of you made a little mistake in your posts. It is 4 / 252 / 252 Bold that should never be used, at least according to the calcs. 4 / 252 / 252 Calm is efficient.

Also, trying to make arguments along the lines of "a measly 5%" is a bit silly. The difference made to Blissey's special defense is the same. In fact, since special moves are generally less effective against blissey, generally this number will be even lower for special moves. Ultimately, it depends on how you want to use Blissey; what Blissey is "supposed" to be taking varies from team to team.

So overall I'd vouch for 252 / 252 / 4 Calm / Bold. This gives an option to go more physically or specially defensive, and is clear and simple.
 
I would vote for Blissey to use as much evs are needed to avoid the 2hko from Modest Specs Rotom-W in the rain but i am not sure...



  • With 192 HP / 252 Def / 64 SpD Bold, you avoid the 2hko from Modest Specs Politoed's HP in the rain, after SR and lefties.


  • With 172 HP / 252 Def / 84 SpD Calm, you avoid the 2hko from Modest Specs Rotom-W's HP in the rain, after SR and lefties.


  • With 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm, you avoid the 2hko from Timid Flash Fire boosted (or Specs) Heatran's FB in the sun, after SR and lefties.


  • With 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD Calm, you avoid the 3hko from Timid Specs Tornadus's Hurricane, after SR and lefties. This, imo is important, since Hurricane has quite a big chance to confuse you (30% chance in 1 hit and 51% chance in 2 hits), which means that after you get confused, if you hit yourself in confusion, then you face the possibility of being 3hkoed.
EDIT: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 SpD with a Calm nature is the spread that guarantees that you don't get 3hkoed by Specs Tornadus's Hurricane after SR, Lefties and 1 round of confusion, assuming a Calm Blissey with 0 Atk evs (22 Atk stat).

It would be nice if the QC stuff could tell us some more important special attacks that Blissey should avoid the 2hko from, if there are any, to have a verdict on Blissey's spread...
 
Its worth mentioning that if Blissey has Protect it can avoid quite a few of these KOes. IMO, a Wish/Protect Blissey benefits far more from the physical defense than others, as I quite often find myself having to toxic-stall physical attackers as a last-ditch measure.
 
Yeah but Protect cannot be really relied upon, since the opponent can easily predict it and switch out to their physical attacker, forcing you out, and leaving you in 2hko range of their strong special attacker later...
 
Here are some other important calcs that have been missing from the OP:

Specs Hydreigon's Focus Blast vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 45,1% - 53,22%. This is a 2hko after SR, more than 50% of the times.

LO Gengar's Focus Blast vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 36,69% - 43,14%. This is a possible 2hko after SR + Spikes.

100 HP / 252 Def / 156 SpD with a Bold nature is the optimal spread that avoids the 2hko from LO Gengar's FB after SR + Spikes and lefties.

156 HP / 252 Def / 100 SpD with a Calm nature is the optimal spread that avoids the 2hko from Specs Hydreigon's FB after SR and lefties.
 
shrang said:
I think the most important thing about my proposed change is that without investment, Blissey is getting 2HKOed by things that it should have no problem walling, like Specs Politoed and Heatran in the sun, and all that stuff. Yes, Blissey does enjoy the additional physical defense, but the thing to remember about Blissey that it's a special wall, not a physical or mixed one. It shouldn't be taking on physical attacks in the first place. Even without the additional HP, she can still take on many unSTABed physical attacks anyway, as well as escaping most Pursuiters without taking too much. A special wall being killed by common special attackers (like Specs Politoed) is just missing the mark IMO.
Click to expand...

completly agree with this, and i think that 252 def/252 sp def Calm would definetly be the optimal spread, as(like others have said) blissey doesnt really need tht extra 60 or so HP.
 
Okay since we've all established that Bold nature sucks on 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD, we're sticking with Calm for my suggested EV spread.
 
While we're discussing alternate EV spreads for Blissey, I think we should also consider the merit of running 88 speed EVs, letting Blissey outspeed 44 Spe Jellicent (the standard physically bulky set) as well as 4 Spe Scizor. This allows Blissey to use Toxic / Flamethrower before the Taunt / U-turn. I see this as pretty significant, especially the part about being able to get Toxic off against Jellicent, which can really turn the tide of stall v stall battles.

This "Fast Blissey" set dates back to the days of DP where it was featured in an edition of The Smog (http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue11/underrated_movesets), but I think its effectiveness has grown in Gen V with the addition of Taunt Jellicent.

I'm not saying this should be the primary spread, or even necessarily mentioned in the set comments, but it at least deserves an OO mention. I mean, even CM Blissey gets and OO mention, and Fast Blissey much more viable than CM Blissey.

In light of the discussion above, a Fast Blissey spread might look something like 252 Def/ 168 SDef/ 88 Spe. This gives enough special bulk to avoid a 2HKO from Modest Specs Rotom-W in Rain after SR. There are probably better ways to EV this; I'm just putting this out here as a starting point, so I would appreciate any suggestions for a better Fast Blissey spread.
 
I different Blissey spread is needed to say the least. I do like the merits of a faster blissey, but I don't think it should be the primary ev spread. Just a AC mention (way better than an OO mention in my opinion.) As for the ev debate, I believe that AlexWolf has the right idea with only presenting enough ev spread to wall certain special threats, and the same time, wall enough physical walls as well. 156 HP / 252 Def / 100 SpD Calm is the superior spread because Blissey should be doing its main job first (specail walling,) but at the same time we are still keeping the physical defense and we achieve the ideal defenses that Blissey needs. A change for 156 Hp / 166 Def / 100 SDef Calm can be used to outspeed mentioned threats above (hp is needed to tank hits, so I took it from defense).
 
You know I’ve been playing around with the damage calculator, and I think I may have found a set to ponder on. 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 Bold, while not revolutionary offer nearly the same defensiveness as 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm:

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm:
Specs Politoed Hydropump: 36.7%-43.4%
Band Scizor Pursuit: 39.8%-46.9%
Defensive Politoed Scald (4 special attack): 11.8%-13.9%
Dragon Dance Salamence Outrage: 72.7%-85.7%

8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpDef Bold:
Specs Politoed Hydropump: 36.8%-43.3%
Band Scizor Pursuit: 39.8%-47%
Defensive Politoed Scald (4 special attack): 11.6%-13.8%
Dragon Dance Salamence Outrage: 72.7%-85.9%

Odiously very similar. For our standard pursuit users and Politoed, they are virtually identical (calm is .1% better in defense admittedly). As the damage to Blissey is increased in the calm starts to look better slightly, but on the lower damage side (Politoed scald) my bold spread looks better. Know I bet your thinking, why the fuck should I care about .3% from defensive Politoed's scald? Well sometimes Blissey can in fact get to very low health, and I have personally been in a lot of situations where I needed a low damage roll to heal back up, any bit of defensiveness would have helped in those situations.

I tried other spreads to, interestingly 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd Calm is virtually the same as our chosen calm one, outside of an exact switch up in defensiveness on both sides. Other tinkering with HP evs or special defense evs just made weaker spreads. Never take any evs out of defense either, it literally loses like an entire percent of HP per every defense ev you take out, even if you put them into HP.
 
Some 0,x differences in damage are not even worth discussing, even moreso when you realize that when you run max HP, you can pass bigger Wishes...
 
Andeby said:
This might be true for some teams, but not everyone of them need more than 326 HP Wishes.
Click to expand...

I think what he's trying to say is that when two EV spreads are nearly identical in the way that they tank hits (like the two that Scarfwynaut mentioned), then you should probably go with the one with more HP investment simply for the fact that it offers larger Wishes. If you really want that extra .#% bulk, then more power to ya, but it depends on if you're willing to give up an extra 31 HP on Wishes.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
You know I’ve been playing around with the damage calculator, and I think I may have found a set to ponder on. 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 Bold, while not revolutionary offer nearly the same defensiveness as 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm:

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Calm:
Specs Politoed Hydropump: 36.7%-43.4%
Band Scizor Pursuit: 39.8%-46.9%
Defensive Politoed Scald (4 special attack): 11.8%-13.9%
Dragon Dance Salamence Outrage: 72.7%-85.7%

8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpDef Bold:
Specs Politoed Hydropump: 36.8%-43.3%
Band Scizor Pursuit: 39.8%-47%
Defensive Politoed Scald (4 special attack): 11.6%-13.8%
Dragon Dance Salamence Outrage: 72.7%-85.9%

Odiously very similar. For our standard pursuit users and Politoed, they are virtually identical (calm is .1% better in defense admittedly). As the damage to Blissey is increased in the calm starts to look better slightly, but on the lower damage side (Politoed scald) my bold spread looks better. Know I bet your thinking, why the fuck should I care about .3% from defensive Politoed's scald? Well sometimes Blissey can in fact get to very low health, and I have personally been in a lot of situations where I needed a low damage roll to heal back up, any bit of defensiveness would have helped in those situations.

I tried other spreads to, interestingly 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd Calm is virtually the same as our chosen calm one, outside of an exact switch up in defensiveness on both sides. Other tinkering with HP evs or special defense evs just made weaker spreads. Never take any evs out of defense either, it literally loses like an entire percent of HP per every defense ev you take out, even if you put them into HP.
Click to expand...

Uh, what?
vs 252 HP/252 Def Calm said:
Defensive Politoed Scald (4 special attack): 11.8%-13.9%
Click to expand...
vs whatever spread you had that was like 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold said:
Defensive Politoed Scald (4 special attack): 11.6%-13.8%
Click to expand...

How does Scald do more against the 252/252 Calm spread yet Hydro Pump does less? And even then, the chance of that actually mattering is less than the chance of burn -- which would make either spread die in that situation.

Honestly, it looks like scarfwynaut is suffering from confirmation bias here -- whatever calcs that showed 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD to be "better" must have been flawed or outliers. The fact is, 252 HP / 252 Def Calm takes hits better on both sides, so 252 HP / 252 Def Calm is clearly the best set. If you reason this out, it makes sense if you're going for maximum stats period:
  • Blissey's lowest base stat is its Defense, meaning that each EV you give it in defense corresponds to a higher 'percentage' of its defensiveness. (1 stat point out of like 50 defense is 2%. 1 stat point out of like 300 SpD is 0.3%. That's a ratio in helpfulness of around 600.) So investing in Defense EVs, as scarfwynaut pointed out, does a lot more for Blissey's ability to take hits than investing those EVs in Special Defense.
  • Because of the above, investing in Special Defense is pretty much pointless as it's a drop in the bucket in Blissey's already massive Special Defense.
  • However, boosting Blissey's SpD with its nature makes sense. A 10% boost out of a 300 SpD is 30 stat points. A 10% boost out of a 50 Def is 5 stat points. It's not hard to see that using the nature on Special Defense gives you "more stats", while the benefit in defense should you waste the nature on it is negligible.

So yeah, 252 HP / 252 Def Calm is the best spread, and that includes from a logical standpoint. Also, passing bigger wishes makes more sense, as alexwolf says, because Scarfwynaut's spread provides literally no benefit over 252 HP / 252 Def Calm.

The only EV spreads even in consideration at this point should be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Calm and 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm. Anything else is completely outclassed. (4/252/252 Bold is frailer on both sides than 252/252 Calm, and 252/252/4 Bold sucks as shrang pointed out in the OP. If you want a special wall that can take some physical hits, use Chansey.)
 
I'm going to say that 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Calm should be the main spread, as based on previous discussion, it seems to be the most efficient and effective, while 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm should get a heavy AC mention, and 252 HP / 252 Def Bold should get no mention.
 
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