OU BellyZard/Clefable

Lavos

Banned deucer.
(I couldn't find a thread on this, but if one has already been made, please link it)

Been trying out these pokemon recently. Would like some input on their viability/team support.

BellyZard is really good at first glance. Fastest drummer, good type coverage, OHKOs most of the meta at +6. Can't be stopped cold by Skarm/Forry/Ttar which is huge. 100 base speed means outspeeding cune, ties with Zapdos. As far as I can tell Charizard counters are Raikou, Suicune, Starmie, Gengar to an extent. Steelix seems good, can Curse on the switch and blow up cune or starmie. Gengar can be dealt with by a Ttar but this leaves 3 water weaknesses on the team as well as a glaring Marowak hole. I have been starting with this core for basically all my BellyZard attempts at teams and every time I run into a problem filling the last 3 slots. It seems like whatever I do there's still a couple pokemon that shred me. Do I have to simply reconcile myself to this tradeoff or is there a better core to support Charizard that I'm missing?

Clefable seems like it should be used way more. Why not? Drum + single turn heal, STAB Return or DEdge for even more damage (thanks Xeze), Fire Blast coverage to hit Skarm. Passable defenses, good enough combined with Moonlight. Like the only things that can stop it are Skarm, Gengar, Ttar, Rhydon. Skarm/Gar can be dealt with in the last slot, you get to pick one (preferably skarm so you can use ttar to pursuit trap gengar and eliminate it as a threat to your sweep), and then only ttar and rhydon left in the way. No one uses the latter anymore and Ttar is a significant threat but unless it runs Dynamicpunch it's not going to actually kill Clefable, at best it will phaze it out after Moonlight meaning no real damage was done. Additionally you could run CurseLax with EQ alongside it for practically perfect coverage against all three of those stops. So what is holding it back? I suppose status is a bit of an issue, para is an annoyance but it isn't that fast to begin with. Toxic is more of a problem seeing as you are already centering your strategy off cutting Clefable's hp in half. You outspeed Machamp so it can't switch into you on the likely Drum. I haven't tested it out to a great extent yet but in theory it seems like it should be one of the top sweeping threats in gsc.

am I completely wrong or is there some merit to this
 
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Belly Drum + DE is illegal on Clefable. You have to go with Return there.
The main problem with Charizard, imo, is that you only get one shot at sweeping because of his lack of recovery outside of lefties. That means one Poke that has to sit there and wait for his chance to arise. For Pursuit support you can always use Umbreon instead of Tyranitar. Gengar can't do much to it in return, except Hypnosis (and Dynamicpunch because of confusion I guess).
As for Clefable I think the issue is speed. It's hard to pull off a Belly Drum like that, since it doesn't have bulk, like Snorlax, or a handy immunity, like Quagsire. As you said, going for Skarm coverage is the best option.
 
Egg seems like a fine team mate with Zard, since it can force STalking Raikou into an unreliable rest loop. Also doesn't share any weaknesses with Charizard (and has that neat water resistance too).
 
so charizard + egg + steelix would be a good starting point. you think it's worth it to include a pursuittar for gengar or nah?

thanks xeze added the no de+drum into op
 
I made quite a big post on bellyzard somewhat recently in the simple questions simple answers thread and i will just be rude enough to mindlessly quote it, feel free to look up the whole thing for context.
Bellyzard is imo pretty hard to play because of the support it needs. Paralysis is your friend, getting Raikous or Zapdos' down is crucial. You basically need to weaken everything that doesn't get ohkoed by a max attack eq or rs or a fire blast. Blissey needs to be at ~85%, cloyster at ~78%, heracross at 78%, machamp at 72%, Marowak at ~69%, Snorlax at 60%, Starmie at 80%, Suicune at 54%, Umbreon at 57%, Vaporeon at 70%. Those are all the "relevant" things that do not get ohkoed when you are at 999 attack (don't quote me at the calcs, always check them yourself, it's also the minimum rolls btw). Charizard is the fastest drum user, the only things that outspeed it are Raikou, Starmie, Gengar, Jolteon, Alakazam, Espeon and the rarer seen Aerodactyl, Jumpluff and Tauros. Zard ties with Zapdos, Tentacruel, Miltank, Typhlosion, Entei and other Zards obviously. Basically get para on these things or get them out of the way completely, then you "only" need a free turn of setup and you can sweep with zard. Those free turns of setup can be created by inflicting status and just channeling your luck or with Screens support. Meganium does do that quite well, even though you might also go with more conventional screens setters like blissey, raikou, etc. Ususally nobody will instantly switch out of zard because they are afraid of the drum, so they will probably just attack it with what they have and hope for the best. You can also always force something to rest and just hope for your luck with sleep talk rolls to get a free setup.
The setup is quite complicated. If you want to go for the zard sweep you gotta make sure to take out the listed things. Cloyster pairs pretty well with it since it can explode on raikou, starme, zapdos. and it actually 3hkoes gengar, which usually has no room for a recovery move. All of those are pretty likely to come in on it. The others that outspeed are not as common in OU, but paralysis is a great backup plan here. Miltank is usually pretty hard to break, you can lure it with drumlax, lovely kiss lax, selfdestruct lax, etc. Curselax is in fact NOT obvious. I know curse is the best set, but depending on your team you can always tailor it to whatever you want it to do, and getting rid of miltank is really handy. Spikes are useful, especially since the residual damage will help you getting things that aren't ohkoed into safe ohko range, again cloyster pairs pretty well here.
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let's recap everything in there to find out what cores work(ed for me) with Charizard. Exploding on Electrics and Starmie is huge - Cloyster does that quite easily. Spikes are huge - you need to wear down the listed things. If something like Umbreon is forced to rest you open up a time window for the unhindered sweep. Spikes are generally good support, but for zardsweeps they just make your whole job alot easier. That makes Zard+Cloyster your core you can work with. Other support you might appreciate is status. Paralysis on something fast - opens a window for zard, sleeping something also has the side effect of forcing sleep talkers into an unreliable st loop like isa said. Things that offer said support: Electrics' Thunder, Exeggutor (both statuses als possibility, can explode on Umbreon, Suicune and especially Electrics), Snorlax (lk, bslam, can explode on suicunes, miltanks or umbreons). That is what i would consider the essential zard support - since you are most likely using an electric and lax anyways you might as well dedicate them to the point of the team. The electrics also have the nice option of using Screens - Reflect for Raikou and both screens on Zapdos. Those can create setup turns for your zard quite easily. Using something that isn't resttalk on Zapdos takes balls but it certainly works. Steelix is good, but in this case i think it is good because of the synergy it has with Exeggutor and Cloyster. Steelix fits onto teams like this because it provides a go-to lax check while still keeping offensive presence and it also has the option of explosion which reliably hits onto suicunes.
About pursuittar - it certainly gives you a solid way of getting rid of gengar, but i don't really think it's necessary. Lax often threatens it and is a quite safe switch into most gengar. Apart from that Gar will have a hard time switching into a team that focuses on spreading status quite often. Gengar is also not really your longlivety pokemon, so it will get worn down eventually anyways.

Clefable is kind of a blowout in my opinion - the only thing it has over Lax is speed and an instant recovery move for the loss of a hell of a lot bulk and power, lovely kiss and one very important thing - unpredictability. When you see a Clefable coming in you know what is going to happen, when you see a lax coming in you do not instantly know it is going to drum. I think Clefable lacks the ability to set up and effectively sweep, on paper it is just bad when the other drummers exist because of how much more reliable and well, better, they are. The thing that you can keep you snorlax slot for some other support is actually the only effective niche i see for it. The thing about the machamp switchin (i just suppose it is a "compared to snorlax you can..." sentence) - how often do you drum with your lax in a realistic gsc match when there is a machamp ready to KO you around? Never. Drum is played quite carefully on all mons because of the high risk.
Also i am drunk and will probably edit alot in this post tomorrow.
 
Lavos Spawn said:
(I couldn't find a thread on this, but if one has already been made, please link it)

Been trying out these pokemon recently. Would like some input on their viability/team support.

BellyZard is really good at first glance. Fastest drummer, good type coverage, OHKOs most of the meta at +6. Can't be stopped cold by Skarm/Forry/Ttar which is huge. 100 base speed means outspeeding cune, ties with Zapdos. As far as I can tell Charizard counters are Raikou, Suicune, Starmie, Gengar to an extent.
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Vaporeon survives 999 EQ. Jolteon "counters" if you bring it in on Belly Drum. Cloyster survives 999 Rock Slide if it's at full health, doesn't wanna come in on FB tho. Machamp survives 999 EQ and usually carries Rock Slide, so does Marowak.

Zapdos speedties so if it wins ur ded. Tentacruel speedties so if it wins ur ded. Snorlax survives 999 EQ so if you took some damage and it's at high health ur ded.

So yeah it does need a fair bit of support to chip the bulky stuff and para the fast stuff, and then ideally it needs a setup bait that won't kill or phaze Charizard if they decide to stay in. IE not much good trying to set up on Skarmory if they predict Drum and just WW you back out, or trying to set up on Egg if they just Sleep you.

Clefable seems like it should be used way more. Why not? Drum + single turn heal, STAB Return or DEdge for even more damage (thanks Xeze), Fire Blast coverage to hit Skarm. Passable defenses, good enough combined with Moonlight. Like the only things that can stop it are Skarm, Gengar, Ttar, Rhydon. Skarm/Gar can be dealt with in the last slot, you get to pick one (preferably skarm so you can use ttar to pursuit trap gengar and eliminate it as a threat to your sweep), and then only ttar and rhydon left in the way. No one uses the latter anymore and Ttar is a significant threat but unless it runs Dynamicpunch it's not going to actually kill Clefable, at best it will phaze it out after Moonlight meaning no real damage was done. Additionally you could run CurseLax with EQ alongside it for practically perfect coverage against all three of those stops. So what is holding it back? I suppose status is a bit of an issue, para is an annoyance but it isn't that fast to begin with. Toxic is more of a problem seeing as you are already centering your strategy off cutting Clefable's hp in half. You outspeed Machamp so it can't switch into you on the likely Drum. I haven't tested it out to a great extent yet but in theory it seems like it should be one of the top sweeping threats in gsc.

am I completely wrong or is there some merit to this
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Clefable's decent. You underestimate Rhydon's usage, it's still okay despite the HP Legend unban. Ttar can kill Clefable if it gets lucky with Rock Slide flinches, and there's also Curse to worry about. And there's again the problem of "what are you scaring out to get a free turn to Drum".

I suck so I can't really give you much advice on how to run these guys but that's my assessment of the problems with them.
 
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I like Zard. You only really need Explosion Cloy to take out Starmie. The other counters can be worked around by the lizard himself, and focusing too hard on supporting Zard will leave your team seriously hamstrung against other things. It's a funny "oh shit" surprise to whip out every so often, but it's not really a team player and leaves you fighting 5-on-6 for a while. When using it, you really just need to let your balls hang loose, go for speed ties and Rock Slide flinches, it's not for the faint of heart.

I don't like DrumFable as much, although it's just as big a threat. Clefable needs more support to work (need Pursuit for Ghosts and something for Rocks), and doesn't OHKO what it needs to hit with Fire Blast, making it generally less potent than Charizard. Its typing offers nothing defensively, so you have the same 5-on-6 syndrome that Charizard has. However, Moonlight does allow it to be pretty cavalier with how it attempts to find openings to drum. For example, Clefable can attempt to switch into Zapdos as it uses Rest and then attempt to Drum when it is forced to either switch out or go for the 20% chance of hitting a Thunder. If its counters are gone, it's difficult to really neutralize the Clefable threat because it can just keep healing, thereby muscling past most teams' #1 defense against drummers: wailing on them.

Both mons look really exciting on paper, you're not off base at all with this.
 
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Ah! The man himself.

So you're not too big on building the entire team around BellyZard then? The sort of team I had envisioned was one where every Pokemon was fulfilling at least a partial role in eliminating BellyZard counters so that it could sweep as easily as possible, but I could see how just slamming it on the table on a predicted Skarm switch could put insane pressure on the opponent. In that case I think the main problem with how I was playing it is that I wouldn't even reveal it until I was sure of a clean-as-possible Belly Drum. I suppose Zard isn't too bad on its own, though. It has the tools to threaten almost any switch-in. The waters are a problem, you think Cloy is the best answer to this, does Steelix carry any weight with you? It baits in Cune and OHKOs with +1, which Cloy doesn't do, but Cloy has Spikes which is really important to wear down checks. Could potentially run both but I'm unsure if that handicaps me too much against stuff like Machamp.

If Clefable needs more support to work is it even worth running? I was considering a scenario where you run a 4 attacks Lax + Pursuittar and effectively weaken/flat out eliminate the big stuff like Ttar, Gengar, opposing Lax. I've done a similar setup with Kanga and it worked fairly well, but Drum is a different animal, despite the double normal BoomLax bait theme.
 
Zard outspeeds Cune, so if desperate, you can always flinch it. Starmie just straight up gives you no hope.

Steelix has a lot of counters that can take Suicune's place, so using it to specifically Explode on Cune is kind of outdated. Golem and Snorlax are probably better bets at Suicune-sniping.

I don't think Steelix + Cloy in itself really makes you that weak. It's more that Steelix isn't doing what you think it's doing (it's doing more defense than Exploding on Suicune, even in matches with Suicune), and then you're probably filling out the rest of the team with Zapdos/Snorlax/Exeggutor, leaving you pretty weak to Tyranitar and Fire Blast Curselax. Thus, you effectively don't have much more than Cloyster supporting your Zard anyway, so no need to feel too attached to that Steelix if you want to rebuild and make yourself a little more capable of dealing with those threats.

I've always personally had trouble getting Clefable to work, so I'd say it's not really worth it. I think the reason is that it needs two supporters (anti-Ghost and anti-Rock) without giving back to the community, whereas other selfish mons only need one supporter (e.g., Charizard and anti-Starmie, Kangaskhan and anti-Ghost). Not entirely sure on this, though.
 
What does Charizard OHKO at +6? Even Marowak "only" does 90% to a whole lot of shit and it does about 1.5x damage. Of course this was already covered but whatever. BellyZard, Charizard, is strictly a fun 'mon. You scare some junk like Skarmory but with no utility short of getting a lucky burn on T-Tar or something, Charizard can't do anything meaningful outside of Belly Drum, which it just isn't strong enough for. Marowak can OHKO almost everything post-Spikes. While Charizard has decent Speed, it OHKOs basically nothing. It's too difficult to set up for success, you need everything weakened not to mention the faster shit that still kills you (Starmie, Gengar, etc.) without first paralyzing or blowing them up.

Clefable isn't great either but as a reasonably well-rounded Normal, it can at least be a general non-dying annoyance. Still, Porygon2 will serve all your non-Drumming needs better and of course Snorlax even does Drum.
 
Mr.E said:
Clefable isn't great either but as a reasonably well-rounded Normal, it can at least be a general non-dying annoyance. Still, Porygon2 will serve all your non-Drumming needs better and of course Snorlax even does Drum.
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This post briefly made me consider what the meta would be like if Snorlax learned Moonlight.
 
Mr.E said:
What does Charizard OHKO at +6? Even Marowak "only" does 90% to a whole lot of shit and it does about 1.5x damage.
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While i do agree that Marowak is infinitely better than zard i think you are exaggerating a little bit here. Here is a list of what zard can actually ohko at +6 with EQ, Rock Slide and Fire Blast respectively: Blissey (if max roll), Dragonite (min roll is 97%), Exeggutor (min roll is 91%), Forretress, Gengar, Jolteon, Misdreavus, Nidoking, Raikou, Skarmory, Steelix, Tyranitar, Zapdos, Alakazam, opposing Charizard, Espeon (min roll is 98%), Golem, Houndoom, Muk, Rhydon, Scizor, Tentacruel, Smeargle. (i also included the less relevant mons that have at least some kind of niche). Marowak is stronger, but this is more than "basically nothing" and i think it's the ohkos you get on stuff like Skarmory as well as outspeeding things like Exeggutor, Skarmory, Cloyster, etc that gives Charizard a niche over Marowak. And about the faster shit that kills you - this applies to wak similarily (Starmie, Gengar, etc). But yea, Marowak might be a high risk mon, but it's still alot safer than Charizard and whenever i try building a team around bellyzard (or bellyfable, quagsire) i just end up thinking "might as well use Lax or Marowak for that". At the end of the day they just work better.
 
charizard's ok, but not consistent.

clefable is one of those things that are much better on paper than in practice. if i had to quantify it, it would probably be it's inability to drum after taking initial damage from the switch (how many thing can 4hko clefable? just about everything). that means you need to bring it in on a predicted switch/heal bell/rest. quite frankly, a snorlax/marowak (and probably nido/machamp as well) is simply better in such situations.
 
<+Floppy> ...
<+Floppy> your first mistake was considering jayde's advice
<%BKC> whoops
<+Floppy> also if you can make a good bdrumzard team
<+Floppy> you are a good gsc player
<+Floppy> that is like the test to pass
<+Floppy> correction: if you can make a good bdrumzard team, you are considered a competent player
<+Floppy> yeah, that.
<@Jorgen> idk you can be somewhat competent without any teambuilding knowledge
<@Jorgen> just as long as you aren't using bullshit
<+Floppy> ok all-around competent*
 
I guess nobody is a competent player then, since any team with Charizard on it is inherently bad.
OtN0e1K.png
 
The thing about not only those mons, but Drums in general, is that it looks dangerous more in paper than in practice. How many times have you successfully swept with Quag or Fable? It might be just that the players learned how to play against BD (Thunder Electrics helped too I guess) but overall it's not a consistent way of offense, DrumLax being the only real exception. And even then, Curselax is a great "safe pick" overall, being a set that works without support, plus it fits better on offensive teams.
I just have the feeling that BD being the symbol of gsc offense is a bit misleading, especially to new players.
 
I'd hesitate to call Fable inconsistent, since it doesn't have the "one shot and then you are useless" problem (which even DrumLax has unless it has Rest AND you have a Beller), only the "if they stay in and STAB you you die" problem (which regardless of your protests DrumLax also has to a significant extent). Clefable's issue is more with fitting it onto a team (same issue as Porygon2, really) than actual inconsistency.

But yeah Belly Drummers are always pretty risky which is of course why they're not common. Wak is a bit less one-trick-pony since it hits hard unboosted and doesn't lose 50% of its health hitting 999. Still you do have to give up Lefties and that's shit. If I really had to hand someone something and say "this is offense", I'd probably hand them Machamp. Or one of the good Exploders, or a CurseRoarer.
 
HP ground drumfable > all other clefable. Seriously anyone who doesn't run hp ground hasn't played clefable much.

While I agree fable should be used more, it's still pretty meh. Biggest drawback is that it can't take a hit on the switch if it wants to drum at all. On the plus side a little bit (more like a lot) of parahax might spell GG for your opponents entire team. Exeggutor or starmie work well with clefable.

Charizard I can't say much about other than to use him properly you'll be closely analyzing your opponents team, trying to get the specific counters asleep or paralyzed before you move in for the drum. I suck with charizard though someone else probably explained how to use him better.
 
HP Ground is pretty weak and leaves you with a lot less HP. If anything I'd go HP Ghost, HP Ground kinda flounders against Rocks anyway.

EDIT: Oh yeah Shadow Ball is a thing. I'm just so used to Machamp being the only thing to ever use Ghost moves I guess.
 
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yea but you get to merc tyranitar and rhydon. With hp ground you hit everything>50% damage except skarm and steelix i think. Meh I never did look into the hp drop if it's more than a 30 health difference than it makes ghost interesting.
 
saying hp ground is the definitive move shows you haven't tried fable much. sorta like eq isn't always preferred on snorlax. and hp ground is a much shittier earthquake. if anything, i'd argue fire blast is the better move in almost every scenario (lose ttar/rhydon and gain skarm/steelix? sounds like a win). it doesn't cost you 50% of your life for a move to come online.

why hp ghost? don't you learn shadowball?

is sing illegal? other shit that might work include swagger/sweet kiss, toxic, zap cannon, ice beam, attract. encore's pretty shit on her overall, since it only pays off if they're resorting to cursing vs you.
 
The things is you will kill skarm/lix slower with hp ground moveset than you would kill tyranitar/rhydon with the fire blast variant. Sorry this is a bit confusing. Anyway while this favours your argument the major difference is that lix/skarm don't hurt clefable much, but tyranitar/rhydon can kill her pretty damn easily. I'd prefer to be able to kill threats more effectively while giving up a bit of power against the steels. It's also worth noting that gengar walls the fire blast variant. It's closer than I thought but fblast is second best option. I never tried sing though, meh seems unorthodox.
 
Clefable is an offensive mon. It needs to prioritize breaking walls, not beating its more "dangerous" counters. Fire Blast breaks Steels, which are difficult to deal with via other means. FB might also allow damage-free setup against Steels. HP Ground is really weak and hits things that can already be taken care of via other means. Tyranitar is very prone to being worn down by Toxic and Spikes, Misdreavus can be Pursuited, and Gengar actually has to Explode to avoid being Fire Blasted to death anyway.
 
jaQ said:
Anyway while this favours your argument the major difference is that lix/skarm don't hurt clefable much, but tyranitar/rhydon can kill her pretty damn easily.
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Tar/Don are easier to remove than Skarm/Lix (particularly Skarm) because Steels don't take Toxic damage (and neither Tar nor Don usually runs Rest) and Skarm is Spikes-immune. Also, Fire Blast turns Skarm/Lix into setup bait because it can kill them unboosted, whereas HP Ground doesn't turn Tar/Don into setup bait.
 
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