I had a Subdrumming Charizard that I transferred to Diamond, but after the physical/special split, I realized that I can't use Hidden Power Flying. Currently I have Fire Blast and Aerial Ace as the attacking moves, but I feel that Aerial Ace, even with STAB, won't be much of an intimidating attack. What would be good physical moves for Charizard? I was thinking Flare Blitz, but the recoil would kill him, since he has 1/4 HP after Sub/Belly Drum. Help?
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Belly Drum Charizard
- Thread starter floe
- Start date
Just telling you, it will be really hard to pull off. I mean, Stealth Rock already chips off 50% of Char's hp, plus another 50% is a dead Char.
>_>
And yeah, should've taught it Fire Punch before you transferred. If you have a clone left, give it to him. Fire Fang is a good replacement I guess. Blaze + STAB makes it really strong. But unlike Fire Punch, I don't think it can OHKO Salamence after Intimidate and the 5% chance of missing can bite you in the ass.
And yeah, should've taught it Fire Punch before you transferred. If you have a clone left, give it to him. Fire Fang is a good replacement I guess. Blaze + STAB makes it really strong. But unlike Fire Punch, I don't think it can OHKO Salamence after Intimidate and the 5% chance of missing can bite you in the ass.
The best combination if you want to keep Substitute is probably Earthquake and Fire Punch, although this leaves you dead in the water (heh) vs. Gyarados, and Salamence as well.
If you use Flare Blitz, you do not use it with Substitute. What I did in ADV (and I see no reason for it to not work in DP) was Belly Drum, Earthquake, Fire Blast (or Flamethrower, depending on how much I hated certain Pokemon), and Double-Edge. The point was that the most common switch into Charizard was (and will continue to be) the bulky Water type. Double-Edge was strong enough to OHKO threats like Vaporeon and Swampert after a Belly Drum, and then the recoil damage would put my Charizard into Salac range.
The problem with trying this same strategy in DP with Flare Blitz is that Fire isn't going to hit the Pokemon coming in on Charizard hard, whereas Normal does. The same set up would work in DP (with Fire Punch over Fire Blast / Flamethrower for even more power), since Double-Edge will hit and OHKO Gyarados just as well as it OHKOs Swampert. Physical Fire Punch has really powered up the Bellyzard.
Of course, Stealth Rock automatically makes this strategy useless, and with Tyranitar looking to be even more common, this made still more dangerous. Another option (not abusing recoil) is to make Charizard's HP odd. This means Stealth Rock + Belly Drum will leave it with 1 HP. You could also carry a Rapid Spinner to get rid of Stealth Rock, and use something like Fire Punch, Earthquake, Return / Rock Slide (the last one is to hit the guys that resist your other moves), and use Sand Stream to your benefit to lower you HP into Salac range. Basically, just bring out Charizard a few times and attack regularly, and then, when Belly Drum + Sand Stream will put you just into Salac range, use Belly Drum. If they don't have Tyranitar, switch it into something like non-STAB Ice Beam, Seismic Toss, or something.
Wish is another good thing to have paired with Bellyzard, in case you Belly Drum expecting a Seismic Toss to put you in Salac range, but they switch to Salamence, or if they Seismic Toss on the switch instead of going to something weak, putting you below 50% health.
/edit: Oh, Belly Drum Blaze Fire Punch OHKOs Salamence most of the time. However, a few HP EVs and it will just barely survive.
If you use Flare Blitz, you do not use it with Substitute. What I did in ADV (and I see no reason for it to not work in DP) was Belly Drum, Earthquake, Fire Blast (or Flamethrower, depending on how much I hated certain Pokemon), and Double-Edge. The point was that the most common switch into Charizard was (and will continue to be) the bulky Water type. Double-Edge was strong enough to OHKO threats like Vaporeon and Swampert after a Belly Drum, and then the recoil damage would put my Charizard into Salac range.
The problem with trying this same strategy in DP with Flare Blitz is that Fire isn't going to hit the Pokemon coming in on Charizard hard, whereas Normal does. The same set up would work in DP (with Fire Punch over Fire Blast / Flamethrower for even more power), since Double-Edge will hit and OHKO Gyarados just as well as it OHKOs Swampert. Physical Fire Punch has really powered up the Bellyzard.
Of course, Stealth Rock automatically makes this strategy useless, and with Tyranitar looking to be even more common, this made still more dangerous. Another option (not abusing recoil) is to make Charizard's HP odd. This means Stealth Rock + Belly Drum will leave it with 1 HP. You could also carry a Rapid Spinner to get rid of Stealth Rock, and use something like Fire Punch, Earthquake, Return / Rock Slide (the last one is to hit the guys that resist your other moves), and use Sand Stream to your benefit to lower you HP into Salac range. Basically, just bring out Charizard a few times and attack regularly, and then, when Belly Drum + Sand Stream will put you just into Salac range, use Belly Drum. If they don't have Tyranitar, switch it into something like non-STAB Ice Beam, Seismic Toss, or something.
Wish is another good thing to have paired with Bellyzard, in case you Belly Drum expecting a Seismic Toss to put you in Salac range, but they switch to Salamence, or if they Seismic Toss on the switch instead of going to something weak, putting you below 50% health.
/edit: Oh, Belly Drum Blaze Fire Punch OHKOs Salamence most of the time. However, a few HP EVs and it will just barely survive.
Was just double-checking Salamence but Obi should be right. MetalKid's calculator doesn't seem to calculate it right I don't think. If it's not a bulky build (so say 252 atk / 252 speed / 6 hp) then you'll OHKO Gyarados with Fire Punch as well. Both should be OHKOed if they don't get Intimidate off. The only way of course would be if they switched in on you before you Drummed or while you're in a substitute.
LocoUser, Dragon Claw is useless on a Bellyzard with Fire Punch. Fire Punch will get Blaze and STAB which makes it more powerful than Dragon Claw even against those that resist it (not 4x resist though).
floe, for Fly... Well, I just gave it because it helps OHKO bulky waters and things that don't die in one hit to Fire Punch. The three that resist it (and you might see) are Tyranitar, Rhyperior, and Heatran. Obviously a problem with how used the first two are (ban 'em Smogon! >_>). The one turn start up time isn't as big a problem because you'll Fly first and they will NOT see it coming. No one expects Fly in a competitive match. Now their choice is to let their Pokemon die, or switch to something else and let it die. Even Skarmory with 252 def / hp takes about 50%. If Rhyperior or Tyranitar is switched in, that means you can now OHKO them with Fire Punch.
Anything with less than 85 Base Power is useless on Bellyzard. Even with 100 Base Power, Earthquake's only use is Tyranitar and Rhyperior I think... Bulky Waters won't die to it and will KO you back with Surf. Gyarados/Salamence resist it outright.
LocoUser, Dragon Claw is useless on a Bellyzard with Fire Punch. Fire Punch will get Blaze and STAB which makes it more powerful than Dragon Claw even against those that resist it (not 4x resist though).
floe, for Fly... Well, I just gave it because it helps OHKO bulky waters and things that don't die in one hit to Fire Punch. The three that resist it (and you might see) are Tyranitar, Rhyperior, and Heatran. Obviously a problem with how used the first two are (ban 'em Smogon! >_>). The one turn start up time isn't as big a problem because you'll Fly first and they will NOT see it coming. No one expects Fly in a competitive match. Now their choice is to let their Pokemon die, or switch to something else and let it die. Even Skarmory with 252 def / hp takes about 50%. If Rhyperior or Tyranitar is switched in, that means you can now OHKO them with Fire Punch.
Anything with less than 85 Base Power is useless on Bellyzard. Even with 100 Base Power, Earthquake's only use is Tyranitar and Rhyperior I think... Bulky Waters won't die to it and will KO you back with Surf. Gyarados/Salamence resist it outright.
I currently run a Belly Drum/Earthquake/Fire Punch/Double-Edge variant myself, and a Blazed Fire Punch manages to actually wreck quite a few things, even things I didn't suspect it would like Gyarados (non-bulky version..unless you have Stealth Rock up, then it'll never be a problem even with Intimidate) and Salamence (again, running on the assumption that it has 4 HP EVs and 0 Defense EVs...which most, if not all, run). It's a shame you didn't get Fire Punch on it before you transfered, that's obviously its best attacking option this gen...though I still continue to wish that the Fangs had a BP closer to Crunch than to Bite.
Anyway, given your current circumstances, I would say go ahead and stick Earthquake on it. It's always been the typical BellyZard's bread-and-butter attack (well...before Fire Punch).
Actually, I highly suggest that if you have the time, patience, and resources for it that you should go and breed another one, and make sure this one learns Fire Punch as well as Earthquake for its second attack. It'll be your best friend once Blaze is active. Still have to watch out for Bulky Waters though without the aid of Double Edge.
I would've suggested Rock Slide in here, but considering how risky BellyZard is to pull off anyway, the notorious miss rate is something I don't want to fool around with when you're basically running on 1/4th of a full tank.
EDIT #1:
Oh, and this response = epic fail if you make sure to get odd HP. It's not the best Pogey in the game by far, but poor Zard doesn't get enough love because of those raving fanboys and the ZOMGSTEALTHROCKWEAK! that people can't seem to tear their eyes off of (which is true, but any competent BellyZard player can and will work around that if at all possible, so it's overly presumptuous to think that just because you laid Stealth Rock out that Bellyzard = dead. I've had quite a few cases where Stealth Rock worked to my benefit). But don't misunderstand me, Stealth Rock is still a threat to it, but it can be avoided with proper precautions.
EDIT #2:
Well now, I never thought about using Fly, but seeing Firestorm's last post, it makes sense. With it's power bumped up to 90 and STAB, it's more powerful than Double-Edge, so it should still be able to KO the majority of Bulky Water types save Suicune (which Double-Edge could never do anyways). Fortunately, Suicune doesn't seem to be getting alot of love this gen.
Anyway, given your current circumstances, I would say go ahead and stick Earthquake on it. It's always been the typical BellyZard's bread-and-butter attack (well...before Fire Punch).
Actually, I highly suggest that if you have the time, patience, and resources for it that you should go and breed another one, and make sure this one learns Fire Punch as well as Earthquake for its second attack. It'll be your best friend once Blaze is active. Still have to watch out for Bulky Waters though without the aid of Double Edge.
I would've suggested Rock Slide in here, but considering how risky BellyZard is to pull off anyway, the notorious miss rate is something I don't want to fool around with when you're basically running on 1/4th of a full tank.
EDIT #1:
Oh, and this response = epic fail if you make sure to get odd HP. It's not the best Pogey in the game by far, but poor Zard doesn't get enough love because of those raving fanboys and the ZOMGSTEALTHROCKWEAK! that people can't seem to tear their eyes off of (which is true, but any competent BellyZard player can and will work around that if at all possible, so it's overly presumptuous to think that just because you laid Stealth Rock out that Bellyzard = dead. I've had quite a few cases where Stealth Rock worked to my benefit). But don't misunderstand me, Stealth Rock is still a threat to it, but it can be avoided with proper precautions.
EDIT #2:
Well now, I never thought about using Fly, but seeing Firestorm's last post, it makes sense. With it's power bumped up to 90 and STAB, it's more powerful than Double-Edge, so it should still be able to KO the majority of Bulky Water types save Suicune (which Double-Edge could never do anyways). Fortunately, Suicune doesn't seem to be getting alot of love this gen.
Lulz, how does I 4chanz? Yeah epic fail is more played out than the 'ZOMD STEALETHSROX' thing, so, just no. I admit that I didn't think of the odd hp thing. I like Charizard as a pokemon, but I still think stealth rock owns it badly.
I see what you did there D=. Touche though, you have a point about epic fail. But I suppose if you still think BellyZard is still boned due to Stealth Rock, then I suppose we just have to agree to disagree. Just had to voice my opinion on the matter though cause it was driving me crazy.
Anyway, I think I've inadvertently de-railed this topic long enough. Continue all.
I guess if you want to use Bellyzard in your team, you have to work your team around it, first you'll need a Rapid Spinner, a Tyranitar counter and a Weather Cleaner..
You might not use the Rapid Spinner but I guess the other two are a must if not Bellyzard won't survive even one turn after it Belly Drums
The fact that you don't have Fire Punch hurts you badly...
You might not use the Rapid Spinner but I guess the other two are a must if not Bellyzard won't survive even one turn after it Belly Drums
The fact that you don't have Fire Punch hurts you badly...
When will you be able to get in Rapid Spin? (honest question, I'm not sure when even under normal circumstances, let alone Charizard) I don't know about you, but I personally wouldn't use a Pokemon that would require that much support to be effective (although somebody will be able to pull it off).
Flare blitz. ohkos 99% of the things you'll face, even if they resist it.
Flare blitz is not an option as you have 25% hp after a drum and sub, so you will OHKO yourself.
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question, but I'll take my best stab at answering it. In addition to BellyZard, I run a Donphan just for that purpose. It usually scares away whatever it switches into, and that's when I Rapid Spin away any Rocks that happen to be on the field, since the switch in will usually be immune to EQ. So long answer short, I'll be able to get in Rapid Spin when I predict that my opponent will switch out of Donphan (hopefully by that time I will have eliminated Swampy, but that's not always the case). Most times it works. Again, I'm not sure if that's the answer you wanted, but I tried.
The only way for them to do that would be if they knew you were going to Fly though.
Charizard used Fly.
Charizard flew up in the air!
Vaporeon used Surf.
The attack missed.
Trainer withdraws Vaporeon.
Trainer sends out Tyranitar!
Charizard uses Fly!
-damage-
Charizard uses Fire Punch!
Tyranitar fainted.
Unless they see Fly coming and switch the same turn you fly up (assuming Fly stays unpopular, they won't), Tyranitar will not live. Of course, if you require the use of Fly more than once then you'll have to start the mind games.
Sadly, Intimidate does seem to work in the air so it leaves you open to a free Intimidate. Haze obviously works in the air, but Roar does not.
Both of these sets are comfortably walled by Heatran, who can Stone Edge back. To avoid this, you would need Earthquake/HP Ground as coverage on the respective sets.
