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Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
You cant upload items to HOME in any game so far, everything equiped goes back to your bag, dont expect anything new unless the announce a BDSP update.
Let's talk about Lanturn a bit, shall we?
Lanturn is a very unassuming pokemon, it currently resides in NU, isn't ranked on the OU viability ranking, and it only has 0.01% usage in OU, according to the latest usage stats. It's very easy to understand why that is, its base stats, aside from its astounding base 125 HP, are all below 80, and it's a bulky water type without recovery outside of Rest and Leftovers. To add further insult to injury, it is generally outclassed by the amazing Rotom-Wash, who shares the same typing as Lanturn, has an amazing ability in Levitate, which gives it a Ground immunity, is currently placed at S- on the OU viability rankings, and saw 29% usage in the latest usage stats
Lanturn is a very cool Pokemon and I'm sure that in some compositions (clearly focused on stall) it can be used. Contributions like yours make the tier more creative and healthy. HOWEVER, it is not for this reason that strengths and possibilities have to be found where there are none. Or ignore Pokémon in the tier that fulfill the same function or even improve it.
Regarding these 4 that you have mentioned, I think that Lanturn is annoying at best.Yet despite all of that, I believe Lanturn to be overlooked as an amazing check to pokemon such as,
,
, and even
. Why is that? Because despite the aforementioned flaws, it has a unique set of characteristics which set it apart from the competition and provide a valuable, albeit specific, niche in the metagame.
-vs Heatran: it's not even close to a good answer, it puts rocks on the switch-in and wins the damage battle (Earth Power does more damage than you do with scald)
-vs Magne/Starmie: here you have to understand what is the function of these two in the metagame. Magnezone is a Pokémon that traps things to increase its teammates' chances to sweep. It's not like he comes and spam things. It's not Latios. Starmie will most likely enter the battlefield, spin and leave. Yes, they could never get past Lanturn but he doesn't really offer anything.
-vs Rotom: annoying. Very annoying, yes. But here it would act like a Gastrodon. A good opponent would just try to Trick or Burn you, you never use Hydropump or vswitch vs Gastro/Lanturn.
Here we go to the 2nd point. Lanturn's offensive pressure is less than what you're talking about. Max speed gliscor can stall your Ice Beams and keep the rocks pressure. Max SpDef Gliscor (something I expect to be relevant in the metagame as the very little mons that can try to wall Zam) doesn't even need to Roost and non-Atk invested Garchomp KOs you with earthquake.This is where's second great quality comes in, its access to Volt Switch. When you inevitably bring your Lanturn in on a choiced Electric attack from the likes of Zone and Rotom-Wash, you're going to want to keep the momentum going, and what better way to do that than with Volt Switch? You'd dissuade Ground types such as
or
from switching in with the threat of hitting them with Ice Beam, or with the threat of being burned by Scald. This will allow you to get a team member on the field practically for free, letting you keep the pressure on the opponent. That is the main problem with the checks mentioned in the paragraph above, they end up being passive and give the opponent free turns to do as they please. Lanturn is the opposite of passive thanks to Volt Switch and Scald.
Every Pokémon that has acces to Scald has some sort of pressure but this doesn't imply it becomes a real threat.
This is the part where I agree with you the most in the entire post. If lanturn can work, it has to be with specific Pokémon behind it to help make up for its shortcomings. However, in my opinion, you have not concluded very precisely: we are not in a playstyle that is close to Balance. We are fully in the Stall.Now that Lanturn's great qualities have been discussed, how can you help support it? If you want to keep your Lanturn alive for as long as possible, Wish support from the likes ofis your best bet. This will give Lanturn recovery outside of Leftovers and Volt Absorb, which it will want if you're going to be playing the long game. A bulky Ground resist such as
would also work alongside Lanturn, providing it the backup it needs against Ground types who successfully manage to make their way onto the field. Lanturn would thus fit onto bulkier team styles such as balance, where it can work alongside its teammates in order to check the many dangerous offensive threats in the metagame.
Lanturn's lack of recovery (and this particular set not running Rest) forces a Wish passer to run. + Hazard controller to not lose to Rocks/TSpikes + Gliscor or a Black Sludge holder to prevent Tom from being free to trick the Lanturn. + probably Blissey not to lose against Nidoking. It's practically impossible to fit Lanturn into a team without surrounding it with fat Pokémon.
The GenII designs are my favorite by far and I think most Pokémon can be used competitively in certain scenarios. But we have to be objective. Lanturn is currently too passive of an option and offers very little in the very offensive metagame we're in.
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Before anything, I'd like to thank you for responding to my post and providing your insight, I appreciate it very much.
I'll agree here and say that not every pokemon should be explored in the metagame, and that perhaps I hyped up Lanturn a bit too much at times (calling it "The opposite of passive" certainly was a stretch, couldn't think of the right way to convey what I wanted to say). That being said, I do still believe that there are cases where looking towards an overlooked pokemon can yield certain benefits. Lanturn, I believe, is one of these cases. I probably should have made Lanturn's role more clear in my original post, it isn't meant to be a full on wall like Gastrodon or Blissey, but rather a bulky Electric immune pivot.
I think this is a primary example of me not being clear enough in my post, Lanturn isn't meant to beat Heatran in the 1v1 (at least not with the set mentioned in the post, anyways). Its role against Heatran is to switch in and defensively check Heatran, and then safely pivot to something that can threaten Heatran, not fearing being trapped by Magma Storm.
This is true, even in my replay against Magnezone, it trapped my Scizor and hit it with Specs Tbolt, with it switching out after Lanturn gets pivoted in via U-Turn. This, however, I feel can be resolved with more intelligent play.
Starmie not being able to break Lanturn without a lot of prior damage is exactly what inspired me to write my post in the first place. Offensive teams can deal with Starmie by outspeeding it with stuff like Scarf Rotom-W or Alakazam and Weavile. Defensive teams, on the other hand, have trouble with switching in and dealing with Starmie without having to resort to mons like Blissey or SpDef Gastrodon (who admittedly, are both excellent mons). Other mons could work, but it would come down to what moves Starmie decided to choose. Lanturn is capable of switching into Starmie very well, regardless of what moves it has (it only fears Psychic, but Pikalytics shows that that's a rather uncommon move), while also being able to actually threaten Starmie in return.
Assuming you mean Rotom-W and Lanturn in a 1v1, you make a good point. Lanturn would be, at most, an annoyance to Rotom-W in a 1v1 situation. However, these aren't 1v1 battles, Rotom can trick its Scarf away to something else, or Lanturn can switch in on a predicted choiced Volt Switch, you could even scout the Rotom's intentions with Protect. Lanturn blocks Rotom's momentum grabbing Volt Switch, and can play around any Trick shenanigans.
Max SpDef Gliscor potentially becoming relevant and becoming a massive pain for Lanturn is a very good point, I won't argue on that any further. As for Garchomp, if it hits the field against Lanturn and it isn't already burned, swap to something that can handle Chomp, doing so otherwise is unnecessarily risky.
True, won't argue much further on that.
I'm still struggling to differentiate the difference between a balance team and a stall team at a glance, so I appreciate the clarification a lot.
I agree, Lanturn fits best on bulkier teams, but that doesn't inherently make it bad. It's capable of filling its role on said teams really well, and I can't see anything filling a role similar to Lanturn whatsoever.
Once again, I'd like to thank you for your insight on my post. I disagree with some of what you said, but this sort of discourse will help the meta evolve into a more fun, healthy, and creative tier. Despite all my Lanturn praise, even I agree that Lanturn should only fit onto bulkier teams, and even then, only certain teams in said style. There is a reason why Rotom-Wash is considered one of the tier's best mons, while Lanturn isn't considered, at all. I'd like to make it clear that I do not believe that Lanturn should be commonly used on these teams, but rather, I'd like it to be considered as another viable option, which brings a combination of characteristics that allow it to shine when wielded correctly. To add further, I'd like to see other, more experienced, players experiment with Lanturn further, pokemon aren't beholden to a single set after all. If after enough experimentation, Lanturn is deemed to be unviable or, at the very least, fitting only on very specific teams, I will concede that is was overlooked for a reason. But I believe that a mon's worth can only be truly judged once it has been tried and experimented with enough.
As an aside, do you think it's possible we will see more Alakazam run Psyshock as a response to what will inevitably be an increase in specially defensive sets in order to check Zam?
I didn't want to make a post too dense and I didn't mention a point that might clarify for you why there is so much difference in usage between Rotom-W and Lanturn, especially in high level games.
Pokémon in BDSP have access to a limited number of moves and items. As a consequence there is less variety of sets.
In high-level battles, you often need a little bit of surprise to beat your opponent. One of RotomW's strengths is that you never really know what set it is, and you have to figure it out based on its team. It can be Specs, Scarf, Nasty Plot, Standard that tricks, standard that just pivot around and burns, etc. Where do I want to go with this? Well, Lanturn is much flatter. It is unattractive, among other things, because of its lack of flexibility. The set you mentioned in your original post is the one to expect 99% of the time. I can only think of the aforementioned RestTalk that offers you recovery in exchange for even more passivity, or some cheesy set with Whirlpool.
If he gets access to Toxic in the future can give him a wider range of possibilities.
I'm sure there will be posts in the forum that explain it in depth but I'm going to try to make it simple and schematic.
There are three predominate styles of play in competitive Pokémon. And then there are many subtypes. I will mention the most common ones.
1.Offensive. How it sounds. Wallbreakers, sweepers... 6 powerful threats.
There are many varieties here. The Hyper-Offensive (HO) usually runs a suicide lead, which makes sure to set up hazards and/or screens to make things easier for others. Bulky-Offensive (BO) drops some gunpowder to incorporate fat pivots (RotomW/Tang) or offensive Pokémon that are harder to oneshot. Most Weather Teams would fall into this category, which although they could be a separate class, they usually have structures of this type.
2.Stall. Quite the contrary. 6 fat pokemons that try to prolong the battle so that you run out of resources. They usually carry techniques of all kinds to ensure that they stay alive and that there is nothing that passes through their defenses. Stall players will try take you to turn 500 and leave you with no PPs.
The most common subtype here is the Semi-stall which closely resembles the Bulky-Balance. They tend to be rocky teams that resemble stall teams but often drop 1 or 2 of their walls to incorporate Pokemon that can sweep late game. Very strong defensive cores and hazard control dominate.
3. And finally the Balance. This would be the definition of a compensated, balanced team. Or what would be left if you take all of the above, and put it in a shaker.
Balanced teams tend to have a bit of everything. Physical damage, special damage, fast Pokémon and slow Pokémon. Strong walls and resistances of any type. The defensive cores of these teams are usually blocks of 2-3 Pokémon that work very well with each other (for example, Gliscor-Heatran-Tang)
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Imo there are 2 mons that are at least problematic for the tier. Weavile and Alakazam.
Weavile it's not broken by itself. Weavile clicking Assurance with hazards on the battlefield is broken.
And then we have the guy with the spoons. My favorite sets runs Life Orb and 4 attacks being Psychic - Psyshock - Focus blast - Shadow Ball.
They are not banned yet because they are very weak to prio moves and Scarfed Pokémon which are very common in the tier.
What if you try to wall Zam. Well, there is only 1 Pokémon that is 100% not 2HOK'ed (unless SpDef drop) on switch-in with rocks on the battlefield. I let you discover who.
stopping you right here as in if Rotom tricks you you're basically gonna end dead meat and you don't do anything back at it aside from voltswitching awayYet despite all of that, I believe Lanturn to be overlooked as an amazing check to pokemon such as
tbh it's not like they share the same role, even if they share the typing
one if a offensive pivot that can statboost or support and rarely has to take repeated attacks, the other is an actual defensive pivot
it "collides" with defensive Washer, but that still offers more in the role of support thanks to WoW and Plot shenanigans since generally you don't need a dedicated check to all of them except probably Starmie
they're just different Pokémon
to be fair Blissey doesn't really need to heal right away if in contact with any of the mentioned (probably Magnezone hits the hardest there), and it takes a fairly bad string of predicts for Heatran to beat it 1v1, but that's fair enoughis incredibly passive and would likely need to spend a turn healing off the damage it has taken in order to be able to check these threats in the long term. On top of that, it risks getting trapped and removed from the game by Heatran.
fares the best of these three, but it still has its flaws. Unlike Lanturn, it doesn't resist Starmie's Ice Beam, meaning it can get decently chunked if the Starmie user predicts correctly. Gastrodon will also need to spend a turn using Recover in order to be able to check Starmie in the long term, giving the opponent a free turn to swap to another pokemon, such as
.
but while Gastrodon doesn't resist Ice Beam the damage it takes it's still just useless: 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 113-134 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- 17% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery, and while they might click Recover and lose momentum in the process, at least they **can** heal, unlike Lanturn
mmm the point of being a good defensive pivot is mostly into just taking attacks well as well as still being able to pivot out most of the times, and you don't really do both jobs that well in OUThis is where
and just because you HAVE these moves doesn't mean that you will do a good job at it (see: Lumineon)
Magnezone is quite literally the emblem of "pick your switch correctly otherwise its going to delete you with one of its STABs
if he's not qualified to be a spammer I quite frankly don't know who is, it's even worse than Latios in that regard, while having a Offensive Starmie check is always nice (since it mostly likely comes to threaten you, not just spin)
not really a issue here, most stall teams deal with it rather well if anything, and if you want a stallbreaker Starmie is NOT one of them
(It still doesn't beat Gliscor anyway, but 4 Atks Orb Zam is actually a good use of Alakazam, and generally Stall needs some serious work to block Zam from doing heavy damage)
tl;dr some good ideas thrown around but some answers were kind of bad to read
Lanturn is for sure a good tech option if you're really starving for a electric immune pivot for some reason, but lack of recovery, weakness to any kind of hazard damage, and... quite ironically being Electric, other than having lackluster stats, hold it from being more than a very, very niche passive pivot, and while they're not quite identical it's near impossible to justify it over other, better Pokémon that can collectively cover your Electric weakness without using a slot EXTREMELY specific for that.
I like ideas thrown around though so keep it up
I kinda disagree with this. The emblem your talking about has to be Nidoking. Magnezone lacks coverage. If Magezone can come for free and spam things on you team then your team is bad. Yes, both of his STAB moves can hit very hard but his main function is to trap. The strength of Magne is to make others better. There are many mons that can hit as hard without risking losing the momentum.
Also, my point -and that's why I put them together- was more about if Lanturn is able to stop Magne/Starmie from doing what they're the best at. And not really.
I'm going to be a little more precise about this. Unless Gliscor runs Knock Off (meta is shifting a bit post Latios ban but i believe the vast majority of Gliscor didn't run KO) it doesn't beat LO Zam 1v1 neither it can switch in Psychic. You have to be quite a bit Atk invested to secure U-Turn or Earthquake KOs Zam. And that sounds terrible as a spread.
I genuinely don't know which Magnezones you saw but Specs Zone (especially if Analytic) is a constant 50/50 on which Pokémon you need to throw away, as Gliscor and Garchomp are 2HKOed by Flash Cannon and Thunderbolt pretty much does the rest; Nidoking has superb coverage and can win games because of that, but its a different beast altogether; Magnezone doesn't NEED coverage (proven especially by the fact of its fourth move being a tossup between Explosion, Discharge and Tri Attack), but hits harder and its pair of STABs is virtually unresisted
Magnezone has only one obvious problem, its Speed, but downplaying its attributes to "it traps", when it truly only traps Scizor is definitely underselling it
if anything your definition really undersells Pokémon such as Azumarill or Crawdaunt, for instance
every Gliscor in stall teams run KOff as you have genuinely no reason to pivot there (as we were talking about Stall, where Lanturn should reside accoring to the last messages I read), so yes, every Gliscor in stall teams should be able to 1v1 Alakazam in a pinch; obviously, this doesn't mean the Alakazam user can't just chip Gliscor enough to secure a kill, but you don't beat a full HP Gliscor with it otherwise
Let's take 100 high elo games where Magnezone is played. How many of them would you say his role is to trap & allow stuff like Dnite or Latios to come? How many of them he is just your Special Attacker that just tries to get through things? I'd say 70-30% if not more. Don't get me wrong Magnezone is awesome by itself. But it's not the type of Pokémon that comes first in my mind when we are talking about spammers. He actually requires at least a little of skill. Rarely you are in a good position with Magne where you just click a move and you Alt+Tab, knowing there is no counterplay. I'd think of Weavile clicking Assurance. I'd think of Kyurem (yes, I know) clicking Ice Beam or Freeze Dry.
Anyway, this debate about whether or not Magnezone is a good spammer is not as interesting to me as the initial one, so let's retrace our steps.
We tend to just reply on what we disagree but I absolutely agree on everything you added regarding the Lantern Fish.
The Zam debate had nothing to do with Lanturn (maybe I'm wrong) and that's why it was asked in a different post.
I think there's a good case for most Latias to be modest, the relevant pokemon it would no longer outspeed are Infernape, Garchomp, Staraptor, Mismagius, Salamence, but only the first 2 see any significant usage.
All of them are commonly scarfed, so its not usually safe to stay in on them in the early game until you find out their set, so it doesn't change much there. You can also bluff Timid easily as all Tias are Timid, and all listed mons are OHKOd by Latias, so its a large risk for the opponent to stay in. So that is to say early game, timid and modest latias play the same, just with more damage output for the modest natured one.
For later in the game, most of the pokemon that outspeed aren't as huge threats as before, Infernape and Staraptor get picked off by strong priority at around half health, while Garchomp and Mence are quad weak to ice, and to kill Latias they have to lock into outrage, making them easy to revenge/exploit, as for mismag, it can't ohko latias and is pretty weak so is never a threat. While this is something that timid Latias would not have to deal with (assuming they aren't scarf), I think most teams that would run tias run multiple priority users and/or a fairy-type so I don't think this is as big a deal as it seems.
idk if i'm missing anything but i don't see why most teams can't run Modest Latias
(i'm sure there are relevant calcs, but ik other people like posting 200 of them at once so i'll just be lazy and say more damage=better)
Also as people are talking about weird Washtom checks, spdef flygon is a hybrid of gastro and gliscor while being worse than both.
All of them are commonly scarfed, so its not usually safe to stay in on them in the early game until you find out their set, so it doesn't change much there. You can also bluff Timid easily as all Tias are Timid, and all listed mons are OHKOd by Latias, so its a large risk for the opponent to stay in. So that is to say early game, timid and modest latias play the same, just with more damage output for the modest natured one.
For later in the game, most of the pokemon that outspeed aren't as huge threats as before, Infernape and Staraptor get picked off by strong priority at around half health, while Garchomp and Mence are quad weak to ice, and to kill Latias they have to lock into outrage, making them easy to revenge/exploit, as for mismag, it can't ohko latias and is pretty weak so is never a threat. While this is something that timid Latias would not have to deal with (assuming they aren't scarf), I think most teams that would run tias run multiple priority users and/or a fairy-type so I don't think this is as big a deal as it seems.
idk if i'm missing anything but i don't see why most teams can't run Modest Latias
(i'm sure there are relevant calcs, but ik other people like posting 200 of them at once so i'll just be lazy and say more damage=better)
| 349 |  | Weavile | 125 | 31 | 252 | Neutral | 0 |
| 346 |  | Infernape | 108 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 343 |  | Crawdaunt | 55 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 1 |
| 339 |  | Mismagius | 105 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 333 | | Garchomp | 102 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 330 | | Infernape | 108 | 31 | 192 | Positive | 0 |
| 329 | | Starmie | 115 | 31 | 252 | Neutral | 0 |
| 329 |  | Raikou | 115 | 31 | 252 | Neutral | 0 |
| 328 |  | Zapdos | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Typhlosion | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Tentacruel | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Staraptor | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Salamence | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Ninetales | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Mew | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Jirachi | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Flygon | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Entei | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 328 |  | Charizard | 100 | 31 | 252 | Positive | 0 |
| 319 |  | Latios | 110 | 31 | 252 | Neutral | 0 |
| 319 |  | Latias |
Flygon @ Leftovers
Levitate
252 HP / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
-Defog
-Earth Power
-Roost
-U-turn/Giga Drain
Levitate
252 HP / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
-Defog
-Earth Power
-Roost
-U-turn/Giga Drain
tbh i dont get why would you go modest unless the power boost is so significant for something that you actually can feasibly ditch timid
but the point is that idk but probably not
and id rather speed Infernape (which is more commonly band, and sometimes orb other than scarf), garchomp (tossup between sd/scarf), salamence (tossup between sd/scarf) and raptor (tossup between band/scarf) instead of gaining a power boost that would mean nothing unless proven by calcs
Ladder is kind of dead right now, at least the high ladder didnt had that much people, and feels wrong to go 20+ games without a single Alakazam, even removed Scizor from the team i was using in favor of SpD Gliscor to have something to stop zone from spamming volt switch.
Dont know if HOME will have any impact in the meta, but here is a not-so-standard stall team that works very well right now, have been playing at 1700+ elo all day with it,i think could have gone higher but fucked up because i got distracted while playing at work and did dumb plays like switching wrath in a future sight turn
https://pokepast.es/0e46938d379f833e
Shadow Ball Blissey to not get 6-0 by sub NP Mismagius (underrated mon), you can switch slowking for slowbro as is mostly a future sigh bot but is nice to have an answer to fpunch Nidoking and does better vs zam.
Here a replay vs manual rain (didnt remember to save anything else and the same team was able to break my team during a previous game) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1577075631
Dont really feel like other replays would help anyway, is me spamming healing moves without thinking every game.
LO Zam with psychic, pyshock and shadow ball can murder the team, but other than that (and random guts fighting types) the team can handle anythingor not
Not gonna lie, i feel like stall has been way too good in the tier for a while now and dont think there is a way to nerf it that make sence but wont really become a problem unless we ban zam.
Dont know if HOME will have any impact in the meta, but here is a not-so-standard stall team that works very well right now, have been playing at 1700+ elo all day with it,
https://pokepast.es/0e46938d379f833e
Shadow Ball Blissey to not get 6-0 by sub NP Mismagius (underrated mon), you can switch slowking for slowbro as is mostly a future sigh bot but is nice to have an answer to fpunch Nidoking and does better vs zam.
Here a replay vs manual rain (didnt remember to save anything else and the same team was able to break my team during a previous game) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1577075631
Dont really feel like other replays would help anyway, is me spamming healing moves without thinking every game.
LO Zam with psychic, pyshock and shadow ball can murder the team, but other than that (and random guts fighting types) the team can handle anything
Not gonna lie, i feel like stall has been way too good in the tier for a while now and dont think there is a way to nerf it that make sence but wont really become a problem unless we ban zam.
Ladder is kind of dead right now, at least the high ladder didnt had that much people, and feels wrong to go 20+ games without a single Alakazam, even removed Scizor from the team i was using in favor of SpD Gliscor to have something to stop zone from spamming volt switch.
Dont know if HOME will have any impact in the meta, but here is a not-so-standard stall team that works very well right now, have been playing at 1700+ elo all day with it,i think could have gone higher but fucked up because i got distracted while playing at work and did dumb plays like switching wrath in a future sight turn
https://pokepast.es/0e46938d379f833e
Shadow Ball Blissey to not get 6-0 by sub NP Mismagius (underrated mon), you can switch slowking for slowbro as is mostly a future sigh bot but is nice to have an answer to fpunch Nidoking and does better vs zam.
Here a replay vs manual rain (didnt remember to save anything else and the same team was able to break my team during a previous game) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1577075631
Dont really feel like other replays would help anyway, is me spamming healing moves without thinking every game.
LO Zam with psychic, pyshock and shadow ball can murder the team, but other than that (and random guts fighting types) the team can handle anythingor not
Not gonna lie, i feel like stall has been way too good in the tier for a while now and dont think there is a way to nerf it that make sence but wont really become a problem unless we ban zam.
Haven't been seeing much zam either which really feels weird since it's so strong right now. Ladder is kind of a crapshoot sometimes but it's still odd.
As far as HOME is concerned, it's too soon to say what will happen until maintenance is over (starts in like an hour and a half I believe), but at the very least it should maybe bring us the last two missing Pokemon Celebi and Deoxys. The latter I wouldn't expect to be allowed in the tier for obvious reasons, especially now having gained ToxicSpikes. Celebi though I think might be a fun addition to give more options to the builders.
That said I am real hopeful transfer moves will be possible to use.
Just doing some quick calcs:
-Changes specs surf into a chance for a 3HKO vs a 4HKO vs Scizor (with zone scizor can't switch in next time after 1 surf)
-Lets Soul Dew 2hko clef after rocks (can't do anything to spdef clef)
-Guarantees OHKO on Azumarill with specs Tbolt
Vs. Blissey no real change
Scizor:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 119-141 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 109-129 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Azumarill:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 316-372 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 346-408 (101.1 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Clefable - note clef has 394 HP, brackets are adjusting to protect
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (small chance to not 2hko through protect though)
252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (189, 192, 193, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205, 207, 210, 211, 214, 216, 219, 220, 223) (only wont kill after 1 absolute min roll and 1 roll in bottom 3) 89.1% chance to 2HKO through protect (method below)
252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (171, 174, 175, 177, 180, 181, 183, 186, 187, 189, 192, 193, 195, 198, 199, 202) (6.6% chance to 2HKO though protect, calced by assuming no rocks no lefties to simulate protect, as 2 turns of lefties cancels out SR)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 119-141 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 109-129 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Azumarill:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 316-372 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 346-408 (101.1 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Clefable - note clef has 394 HP, brackets are adjusting to protect
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (small chance to not 2hko through protect though)
252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (189, 192, 193, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205, 207, 210, 211, 214, 216, 219, 220, 223) (only wont kill after 1 absolute min roll and 1 roll in bottom 3) 89.1% chance to 2HKO through protect (method below)
252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (171, 174, 175, 177, 180, 181, 183, 186, 187, 189, 192, 193, 195, 198, 199, 202) (6.6% chance to 2HKO though protect, calced by assuming no rocks no lefties to simulate protect, as 2 turns of lefties cancels out SR)
Modest latias still have less power than Timid latios (350 vs 359 SpA), so the mon that can check Latios can also check his sister. While losing speed to infernape and friends is really significant for offense team.
HOME update finally dropped; we have Celebi and Deoxys now. That's nice. Though I expect Deoxys to be banned immediately like always
All Deoxys forms will be Uber, yes
the point was moreso that modest latias can exert more pressure on it checks, similar to how latios did. That said, yeah I see your (and lalaya's) point wrt to offense teams.
also I know articuno is bad, but with pressure it could have a good stall mu, just bc tang/glisc/bro/shaymin/wrath don't like freeze dry and it can pp stall bliss easily with pressure, and prevents clef from healing with roar
106pp (Articuno) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
- Roar
- Defog
Discussion on Stall
i've probably played stall more than any other playstyle within bdsp ou. it's extremely prevalent, especially within the higher ladder range. more than half of the current top 100 are stall players with multiple alt accounts. and despite the fact that i contribute to the stall mess by using the playstyle, i can't really give an answer as to why it's so popular. i personally think it's not that great of a playstyle, it can be exploited quite easily in this metagame, unlike ss ou, it just performs so well because most teams don't properly prepare against stall. i understand that discussion and player base for the bdsp ou metagame is dead and lacking, which may have some influence as to why stall thrives.
so, why did stall get so popular?
here are some sample stall teams i've constantly encountered at around the 1600 range and up. i've attempted to rebuild them from replays, just know that some of the sets and evs are unconfirmed.
timid heatran stall (sets and evs confirmed, used by Emma Roids/Aerodactylik)
protect + rotom-wash stall (sets and evs confirmed (r-wash set is correct, unsure about ev spreads), used by grossefrappe)
weezing + non-blissey stall (evs not confirmed, used by itsJustRps)
scizor stall (sets and evs confirmed)
poliwrath + slowking stall (evs unconfirmed)
hazard stack + non gliscor stall (slowbro evs unconfirmed)
salamence + protect blissey + reflect tangrowth stall (stall team i tested out, salamence completely walls crawdaunt (helps against sludge bomb variants for tangrowth) and checks a huge amount of the metagame because of intimidate and typing, peaked #13)
classic skarmbliss stall (sets and evs confirmed)
as you can see most stall teams rely on the blissey/clefable/gliscor core. take this as you will when building teams. mixed speical attackers, setup mons with steel/poison coverage, and hazard setters with ice coverage can typically perform well against stall.
again, i still dont understand as to why this playstyle is so common for this specific metagame, maybe these rebuilds can help provide an answer. but after watching the premier league, it quite clear that stall is recognized as a weak playstyle among the best competitive players for bdsp ou, because only 3 of the 50+ games featured a stall team.
anti-stall cores/pokemon
after giving a rundown on some of the most popular stall teams, i think it's only fair to list off threats to stall. as someone who's had a lot of experience will this metagame's stall, i feel as though i can give really good answer to what exactly threatens it.
1. mixed nidoking
other than alakazam, mixed nidoking is by far the best threat to stall that actually has viability. the only stall teams that can deal with this are those that include slowking, max special defense gastrodon, and protect blissey. it's practically an automatic forfeit if they don't. keep in mind, if an opposing stall player can catch your predictons, you can lose. for example, never click focus punch in front of a gliscor because you're anticipating the blissey switch. only click focus punch when the risk is less than the reward.
2. sludge bomb crawdaunt
this one is not as fantastic as it use to be, as most stall players can recognize when crawdaunt is going to click sludge bomb, or they have a poliwrath. this pokemon is an amazing breaker in general though. make sure you have proper pivoting and hazard control when you use this, as it can get chipped fairly easily and its bulk is laughable.
3. togekiss
the conjunction of t-wave, air slash, and serene grace allow it to break past blissey and clefable. if you're able to get a nasty plot up on a blissey, it's going to be very difficult for them to wall you as they won't be able to recover due to flinching and paralysis. it's best to switch this in on a tangrowth, as they are generally forced to switch out. try not to let blissey use t-wave on this, and only stay in on heatran if it's paralyzed or you're +2.
4. gardevior future sight + choice band
future sight and a choice banded user of course has its reputation of breaking past bulkier teams. this offensive style is not seen much in bdsp ou due to the slow-twins losing teleport. however, i cannot stress enough how effective enough gardevior performs against stall teams. its ability, trace, is what makes it have such an amazing matchup. you're essentially going to switch into either regenerator, natural cure, or unaware. gardevior will always manage to stay healthy when facing a stall team. simply switch gardevior into anything that isn't a gliscor or heatran, click future sight, and teleport into a strong physical attacker. future sight is useless against stall teams using protect, but other than that, slowbro is the only thing that can stomach a future sight + a physical move. so, i highly encourage using banded users with moves that threaten slowbro.
5. 4 attacks + life orb alakazam
it 2hkos everything on stall besides slowking. bring this in when you know your opponent is going to switch and don't let gliscor knock it off.
6. choice band tyranitar
choice band tyranitar only has one switch-in, which is poliwrath. outside of that, nothing can truly come in on it. stall teams with protect can scout, which somewhat invalidates the breaking power of tyranitar, so be careful.
7. offensive scizor + rotom-wash
+
example setsvolt-turn in general can be pretty troublesome for stall, due to stall teams relying on defensive pivoting to maintain momentum. an offensive spin on this core has no walls whatsoever.
8. guts
heracross and ursaring are hard to fit onto a team, but stall will always lose against this matchup. neutralizing gas weezing handles heracross, but ursaring literally has no walls with facade + close combat + crunch.
9. power herb + taunt heatran
example setstall teams rely on either gliscor or slowbro/slowking as a heatran check because blissey loses to heatran if it comes in on a magma storm. i've yet to find a single stall team that invests a lot of speed into gliscor, so you'll usually outspeed. with rocks up, gliscor dies to two magma storms.
10. mixed honchkrow
mixed honchkrow with dark pulse and brave bird 2hkos everything on stall besides physically defensive heatran. it's also a great check to alakazam and latias.
11. swords dance drapion
after a swords dance, nothing walls this. it outspeeds everything on stall, and due to its great natural bulk and typing, it's very difficult to remove. poison jab hits tangrowth and clefable, knock off hits gliscor, slowbro, and blissey, and earthquake is for heatran.
12. iron tail + belly drum azumarill
sacrificing waterfall for iron tail makes azumarill a fantastic wallbreaker. outside of stall teams with rotom-wash (which is uncommon to begin with) stall relies on clefable to handle belly drum azumarill and iron tail completely invalidates clefable. once clefable dies, it's an automatic win.
keep in mind, there are many ways to beat stall, these are just some of the more accessible ways i've come up with. generally, most things with taunt will win against stall.
anti-stall example teams:
conclusion:
it's important to understand that stall will make whatever risk to defeat your team's breaker. when there is a stall-breaker alive that threatens their defensive core, make sure it only comes in on a volt switch or u-turn.
most stall teams will lose to well-constructed teams that have the cores above, and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. most counters assume ideal circumstances: walls at 100%, no hazards, no status, etc. most people don't consider stall when they build. it is the biggest match-up fish of all playstyles, and thus it wins or loses in teambuilder. stall teams will still be losing the vast majority of the time when faced against well-built teams with alakazam, nidoking, and crawdaunt, etc. for every odd wall, there are 10 strange stall breakers too.
keep in mind, i'm not arguing against stall, it's my favorite playstyle. i believe it's healthy for a metagame to have stall capabilities. i just wanted to talk about its role within bdsp ou.
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I was wondering if someone was going to make a post about something like this, much like what Pinkacross and Storm Zone did on the SS OU forum a few months ago. I've been struggling with stall myself and I am working on trying to beat it, so I massively appreciate having an in-depth post like this which provides resources and hopefully sparks discussion on how to beat stall effectively.
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I feel like this post would be incomplete if I didn't provide my own methods I've been trying to use to break stall. I mentioned earlier that I've been testing out a Crawdaunt + Future Sight Celebi team, so I'll be sharing the key parts of the team. I'm still trying to fix any issues I currently have with the team, and admittedly I haven't actually beaten a stall team with it yet (I've only fought the protect stall team, and I've been making adjustments after each loss).
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
Stall really only has one reliable answer against this Crawdaunt set, good ol' Poliwrath. Unaware Clef and itemless Tangrowth can also work, but they need both a good prediction and a clean switch. SD takes advantage of any Protect shenanigans, and Crawdaunt is still plenty powerful even without a boost.
Well those calcs are nice and all but what if you predict wrong, and do something stupid like click Crabhammer on Tangrowth when you were predicting a Clefable switch-in?
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Future Sight
- Recover
Xyeu already went over this in their post, but Future Sight and a strong physical attacker are really good at breaking past bulkier teams. This is simply my take on it. Future Sight does 73% minimum to Poliwrath, over half to Tangrowth, and 35-42% to Clefable. That's about all there is to it.
The combination of these two form the core of how I currently plan on breaking past stall. I'd be super interested in seeing what others have come up with in their plans to do the same.
I think you answered your own question here lol. Even though stall should be quite exploitable in this metagame, as you have said, most teams simply aren't prepared to beat stall, so it becomes more popular higher on the ladder to beat these unprepared teams.
I can't speak on experience for any of the other teams, but I have faced this team many a time on the ladder while trying to test out a Crawdaunt + Future Sight Celebi team to try and beat stall. As you mention further down in your post, Future Sight does struggle against teams that spam Protect, so anyone who tries anything similar like me should be wary about that when facing this team. Also, if your main breaker if a choiced mon, it will likely similarly struggle against this team, since it can always click protect and scout your move. Last thing, I'm pretty sure the Blissey carries Aromatherapy over Protect now (at least it did last time I fought it).
Using Salamence on stall is absolutely wack to me lmao I love it.
You obviously lose the Blissey matchup in doing so but would it be worth it to run Toxic over Focus Punch in order to deal with Slowking and SpDef Gastro? Blissey is generally more common on stall than those two, but as such teams that are built to beat stall have more ways to deal with Blissey, such as Magma Storm + Taunt Heatran, Trick, and other physical/mixed attackers. There is obvious concern that Toxic can be removed via Aromatherapy, but the only user of the move that doesn't get mauled by Nidoking is Blissey, which brings us back to anti-stall teams having multiple ways of dealing with it.
I already mentioned this above, and you do so as well in this paragraph, but stall teams that spam protect are generally going to be harder for this core to break. As for Gardevoir, while I have looked at it since it is one of three users of FuturePort in the game (the other two being Zam and Xatu), I originally wrote it off due to its mediocre bulk. I never considered tracing Regenerator as a means of healing, however, I like the idea. That being said I feel like while Future Sight + Choice Band is definitely an awesome core overall, the specific choice of FuturePort Gardevoir + Choice Band will only be consistently good against stall, due to Gardevoir's aforementioned bulk (unless I'm missing something here, it gets 2HKOd by every physical attacker in the tier).
I see the value these two have against stall but outside of that they seem okay at best. Out of the whole list you provided, these two definitely feel like the least noteworthy.
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I feel like this post would be incomplete if I didn't provide my own methods I've been trying to use to break stall. I mentioned earlier that I've been testing out a Crawdaunt + Future Sight Celebi team, so I'll be sharing the key parts of the team. I'm still trying to fix any issues I currently have with the team, and admittedly I haven't actually beaten a stall team with it yet (I've only fought the protect stall team, and I've been making adjustments after each loss).
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
Stall really only has one reliable answer against this Crawdaunt set, good ol' Poliwrath. Unaware Clef and itemless Tangrowth can also work, but they need both a good prediction and a clean switch. SD takes advantage of any Protect shenanigans, and Crawdaunt is still plenty powerful even without a boost.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 260-307 (65.9 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Well those calcs are nice and all but what if you predict wrong, and do something stupid like click Crabhammer on Tangrowth when you were predicting a Clefable switch-in?
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Future Sight
- Recover
Xyeu already went over this in their post, but Future Sight and a strong physical attacker are really good at breaking past bulkier teams. This is simply my take on it. Future Sight does 73% minimum to Poliwrath, over half to Tangrowth, and 35-42% to Clefable. That's about all there is to it.
0 SpA Celebi Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 282-332 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Celebi Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 282-332 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The combination of these two form the core of how I currently plan on breaking past stall. I'd be super interested in seeing what others have come up with in their plans to do the same.
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I think due to how most of the time high ladder = resident sleeper most of the time you won't face stall and you will be matched with lower tiered people which are often more catered towards dealing with Hyper offense or balance. Right now it is rare for me to face stall and there are days for me without seeing a single stall team. It is only when I get matched up to 1550+ people which aren't always online you begin to see stall.
Popularity of stall is quite easy to explain. Just take a look at the mons listed that you mentioned does well vs. stall. Pretty much all of them have little to offer in any non-stall match up. They're either borderline dead-weight (Ursaring) or a worse version of an existing breaker that sacrifices some utility (SB Daunt). This makes fitting these anti-stall measures a nuisance when building a team. Furthermore, some of these breakers are prediction reliant and can fail miserably vs a stall player who knows what they're doing.
Regardless, I believe stall is much less stronger in this metagame compared to others, like SS OU. Since the number of threats is so limited, you can afford to allocate a significant amount of resources in your team to beat stall while still having enough room to reasonably prepare for everything else.
And people gotta stop spamming those cookie cutter Sciz-Rotom-Glis-Latias volt turn that's pure stall food.
Uhh... You know stall is match up fishy and mostly garbage in SwSh OU right?