Is it feasible to have Hitmontop learn both Sucker Punch and High Jump Kick?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
BDSP Battle Tower Discussion & Records
- Thread starter Eisenherz
- Start date
yup! high jump kick is an egg move from a hitmonlee father and sucker punch is a level up move :) i wouldn't recommend high jump kick over the level up move close combat though - you'll start to notice that imperfect accuracy moves are really difficult to maintain high streaks with in the tower, especially with a drawback as big as HJK's...
in the future you can see if a moveset is legal in pokemon showdown's teambuilder by changing the format to "[Gen 8 BDSP] Battle Festival Doubles" and clicking "validate", and typing the
Code:
/learn gen8bdspbattlefestivaldoubles, [pokémon], [move1], [move2], [...]Thank you, I'll keep this in mind. Right now I'm dealing with the trash mob.
Alright, the trash mob has been dealt with, now I'll move on to the Master Class. This team has served me pretty well so far, but as usual I won't be posting the details until they clear 105 streak.
Began the Master Class and it's interesting. Here are my first thought about it.
Compared to Gen V Battle Subway, the power level is indeed lower, since we don't have the genies or Excadrill to push the non-restricted meta. That, or the lower variety means there are fewer matchups that you have to prepare for, especially the guys with tricky typing like Jellicent.
Some Pokémon got a huge nerf due to lacking the Platinum Move Tutors (Zapdos lost Heat Wave and Tailwind) while others got a big boost with typing changes and breeding mechanics (hello Azumarill), giving it a fresh experience even compared to Platinum.
The much-hated "hax" sets return again. I dunno the exact the statistics, but I feel like I ran into Quick Claws much more often than the Battle Subway.
The biggest difference is that you're facing two opponents at the same time, which means it's easier to force the opponent to a 2v1 situation. Of course, the chances of losing to hax teams don't go down that much. You even get to fight important NPCs at the end of every streak, so it's a huge upgrade over only fighting Ingo/Emmett once.
Compared to Gen V Battle Subway, the power level is indeed lower, since we don't have the genies or Excadrill to push the non-restricted meta. That, or the lower variety means there are fewer matchups that you have to prepare for, especially the guys with tricky typing like Jellicent.
Some Pokémon got a huge nerf due to lacking the Platinum Move Tutors (Zapdos lost Heat Wave and Tailwind) while others got a big boost with typing changes and breeding mechanics (hello Azumarill), giving it a fresh experience even compared to Platinum.
The much-hated "hax" sets return again. I dunno the exact the statistics, but I feel like I ran into Quick Claws much more often than the Battle Subway.
The biggest difference is that you're facing two opponents at the same time, which means it's easier to force the opponent to a 2v1 situation. Of course, the chances of losing to hax teams don't go down that much. You even get to fight important NPCs at the end of every streak, so it's a huge upgrade over only fighting Ingo/Emmett once.
I've got the first team reaching the 105 benchmark on Master Class Doubles. As usual, I gravitate towards a Tailwind team.
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Tailwind
- Psychic
With the Tailwind distribution severely limited (thanks for the pack of Platinum content), it's a godsend when Latios' moveset is relatively unchanged. I've always been fond of the Life Orb variance. I originally used Draco Meteor but I found myself not using it much, so I added Thunderbolt instead to help with the Skarmory and Suicune matchup.
Hitmontop (M) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out
- Mach Punch
A Fake Out user to accompany Latios. The first 3 moves are super standard, with Mach Punch rounding out the set. Fake Out + Mach Punch will kill Weavile no matter the set. Beware that some Tyranitars can outspeed this Hitmontop.
Togekiss @ Scope Lens
Ability: Super Luck
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 4 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Follow Me
- Grass Knot
The biggest glow-up since the Battle Subway. Togekiss is just great all-around, and compliments Latios near-perfectly. Fairy-flying is just so good. I picked the CritKiss variant to help fighting bulkier threats like Cresselia, Suicune, and Amnesia Wishcash. I don't find myself using Follow Me a lot. Maybe I should change it to Flamethrower or Protect.
Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
Because Latios shares Fairy weakness with Hitmontop and Ice weakness with Togekiss, I need a Fire or Steel type to round out the team, and Heatran is conveniently both! Heatran covers most of the weaknesses of the other three except for Dark and Ghost. The Speed EV ensures it outspeeds all Breloom and Heatran variants.
The threats to this team are Gengar, who speed ties with Latios and can't be faked out, and the Abomasnow + Starmie combo, who will hit Latios with an Ice move no matter what.
As for Palmer and Barry, I find the Torterra variant to be the trickiest. Milotic has Protect which and trip you up and Competitive to hit you hard, while Torterra has that irritating Quick Claw Crunch. I don't face the Empoleon variance often.
Here's a battle video of this team, though unfortunately the sound is off for some reason.
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Tailwind
- Psychic
With the Tailwind distribution severely limited (thanks for the pack of Platinum content), it's a godsend when Latios' moveset is relatively unchanged. I've always been fond of the Life Orb variance. I originally used Draco Meteor but I found myself not using it much, so I added Thunderbolt instead to help with the Skarmory and Suicune matchup.
Hitmontop (M) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out
- Mach Punch
A Fake Out user to accompany Latios. The first 3 moves are super standard, with Mach Punch rounding out the set. Fake Out + Mach Punch will kill Weavile no matter the set. Beware that some Tyranitars can outspeed this Hitmontop.
Togekiss @ Scope Lens
Ability: Super Luck
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 4 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Follow Me
- Grass Knot
The biggest glow-up since the Battle Subway. Togekiss is just great all-around, and compliments Latios near-perfectly. Fairy-flying is just so good. I picked the CritKiss variant to help fighting bulkier threats like Cresselia, Suicune, and Amnesia Wishcash. I don't find myself using Follow Me a lot. Maybe I should change it to Flamethrower or Protect.
Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
Because Latios shares Fairy weakness with Hitmontop and Ice weakness with Togekiss, I need a Fire or Steel type to round out the team, and Heatran is conveniently both! Heatran covers most of the weaknesses of the other three except for Dark and Ghost. The Speed EV ensures it outspeeds all Breloom and Heatran variants.
The threats to this team are Gengar, who speed ties with Latios and can't be faked out, and the Abomasnow + Starmie combo, who will hit Latios with an Ice move no matter what.
As for Palmer and Barry, I find the Torterra variant to be the trickiest. Milotic has Protect which and trip you up and Competitive to hit you hard, while Torterra has that irritating Quick Claw Crunch. I don't face the Empoleon variance often.
Here's a battle video of this team, though unfortunately the sound is off for some reason.
My win streak ended at 150 as I tried out a SunRoom team. Cresselia and Gastrodon got PP-stalled by Zapdos. Torkoal was the only mon that can inflict more than 50% damage on Zapdos and with Bright Powder and Double Team sometimes not even it can work.
Finally, a second team has reached the 105-win benchmark. This time, I built a team around Torkoal and Trick Room, since this is one of the rare times I get to have fun with Eruption + Sun.
Hariyama @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Heavy Slam
The item and moveset are very standard for Hariyama . This is the definitive Trick Room Fake Out user. The 36 HP makes Flame Orb hurts a bit less, while the 252 SpD allows it to survive Psychic pretty well. Surprisingly, Hariyama can underspeed the Slow twin, but it's not guaranteed to OHKO Slowking without criticized, and it cannot OHKO Slowbro. Maybe 252 Atk can help it reliably OHKO Slowking.
Cresselia (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 100 SpA / 76 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Moonlight
I used to have Dusknoir as a Trick Room setter but Cresselia's higher bulk and potential damage output did win out in the end. 100 SpA guarantees a OHKO on non-Yache Charchomp. Moonlight is in the last slot because it can't use Helping Hand. Still, Moonlight works well with Sun and Perish Song.
Torkoal @ Charcoal
Ability: Drought
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Protect
- Solar Beam
- Flamethrower
The centerpiece of the team, Eruption under Sun is the strongest spread move in the game, and even provide Cresselia plenty of opportunities to use Moonlight. As a weather-dependent Pokémon, it is commonly threatened by Politied and Tyranitar in the back. Fortunately, I didn't get in a lot of Politoed vs. Torkoal situations, but I did get into a couple Tyranitar vs. Torkoal situations.
Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Battle Armor
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Protect
I needed a Perish Song user to win games against Double Team spammers, and I find Marowak the most suitable candidate since it isn't afraid of Zapdos, it's slow, and it can threaten Heatran while Torkoal can't.
Ranking the Palmer + Barry difficulty: Torterra > Infernape > Empoleon.
Hariyama @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Heavy Slam
The item and moveset are very standard for Hariyama . This is the definitive Trick Room Fake Out user. The 36 HP makes Flame Orb hurts a bit less, while the 252 SpD allows it to survive Psychic pretty well. Surprisingly, Hariyama can underspeed the Slow twin, but it's not guaranteed to OHKO Slowking without criticized, and it cannot OHKO Slowbro. Maybe 252 Atk can help it reliably OHKO Slowking.
Cresselia (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 100 SpA / 76 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Moonlight
I used to have Dusknoir as a Trick Room setter but Cresselia's higher bulk and potential damage output did win out in the end. 100 SpA guarantees a OHKO on non-Yache Charchomp. Moonlight is in the last slot because it can't use Helping Hand. Still, Moonlight works well with Sun and Perish Song.
Torkoal @ Charcoal
Ability: Drought
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Protect
- Solar Beam
- Flamethrower
The centerpiece of the team, Eruption under Sun is the strongest spread move in the game, and even provide Cresselia plenty of opportunities to use Moonlight. As a weather-dependent Pokémon, it is commonly threatened by Politied and Tyranitar in the back. Fortunately, I didn't get in a lot of Politoed vs. Torkoal situations, but I did get into a couple Tyranitar vs. Torkoal situations.
Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Battle Armor
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Protect
I needed a Perish Song user to win games against Double Team spammers, and I find Marowak the most suitable candidate since it isn't afraid of Zapdos, it's slow, and it can threaten Heatran while Torkoal can't.
Ranking the Palmer + Barry difficulty: Torterra > Infernape > Empoleon.
Attachments
-
2025040113531700-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113534900-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113535100-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113535300-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113535500-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113531700-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113534900-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113535100-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113535300-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg -
2025040113535500-7DCC42E2AF4C1BBE54BB71700F7161B6.jpg
After many, many experiments, I finally got a Rain Team online. For something that is the "best" weather in the game, this archetype feels pretty finicky, perhaps because I can't pick my leads in the Battle Tower (seriously, GameFreak? For 6 generations you can't do that?)
Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 50
EVs: 148 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect
- Ice Beam
I've always championed Kingdra as the better Swift Swimmer than Ludicolo with its superior stats. Surf spam with Life Orb under Rain is an immediate and strong spread damage. Too bad it doesn't have Hurricane. The EV outspeeds Barry's Staraptor but slower than other Kingdra and Dragon Dance Flygon.
Politoed @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 8 Spe
- Perish Song
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Protect
Rain setter, and Kingdra's co-lead. I decided that Politoed's higher survivability is more important than Pelipper's Tailwind. Perish Song is there to punish Double Team spammers. The 71 Speed is vital to underspeed Abomasnow.
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 4 Def / 140 SpA / 172 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Protect
A partner to allow the Surf spammers to damage both opponents without a care, and also a switch-in to Electric moves. Storm Drain gives it a much-needed offensive push. The 140 Modest SpA is there to 1HKO non-Yache Garchomp, though this calc didn't come up often. I still think that the spread is pretty good.
Scizor @ Lum Berry
Ability: Technician
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Bullet Punch
- Protect
- Swords Dance
Steel-type for Rain team. I did consider Metagross, but Metagross without Gen IV Explosiom, or even Normal Gem Explosion, is really unattractive. I opted for a Sword Dance set with slight bulk. Its role here is to fight Grass types, and 52 Spe allows it to outspeed Rain Dish Ludicolo.
Infernape Palmer + Berry is the most difficult Tycoon matchup for this team, with Choice Band Outrage being a coin flip on where it lands. The Empoleon set is still the easiest.
Other threats are also the Water-Ice Pokémon. These bastards are too specially bulky to 2HKO, and their Freeze Dry and Sheer Cold spam is a nightmare.
Not sure which team to pick up next. Maybe a Sejun team or DisQuake team.
Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 50
EVs: 148 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect
- Ice Beam
I've always championed Kingdra as the better Swift Swimmer than Ludicolo with its superior stats. Surf spam with Life Orb under Rain is an immediate and strong spread damage. Too bad it doesn't have Hurricane. The EV outspeeds Barry's Staraptor but slower than other Kingdra and Dragon Dance Flygon.
Politoed @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 8 Spe
- Perish Song
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Protect
Rain setter, and Kingdra's co-lead. I decided that Politoed's higher survivability is more important than Pelipper's Tailwind. Perish Song is there to punish Double Team spammers. The 71 Speed is vital to underspeed Abomasnow.
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 4 Def / 140 SpA / 172 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Protect
A partner to allow the Surf spammers to damage both opponents without a care, and also a switch-in to Electric moves. Storm Drain gives it a much-needed offensive push. The 140 Modest SpA is there to 1HKO non-Yache Garchomp, though this calc didn't come up often. I still think that the spread is pretty good.
Scizor @ Lum Berry
Ability: Technician
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Bullet Punch
- Protect
- Swords Dance
Steel-type for Rain team. I did consider Metagross, but Metagross without Gen IV Explosiom, or even Normal Gem Explosion, is really unattractive. I opted for a Sword Dance set with slight bulk. Its role here is to fight Grass types, and 52 Spe allows it to outspeed Rain Dish Ludicolo.
Infernape Palmer + Berry is the most difficult Tycoon matchup for this team, with Choice Band Outrage being a coin flip on where it lands. The Empoleon set is still the easiest.
Other threats are also the Water-Ice Pokémon. These bastards are too specially bulky to 2HKO, and their Freeze Dry and Sheer Cold spam is a nightmare.
Not sure which team to pick up next. Maybe a Sejun team or DisQuake team.