since when does bp rely on good predictions o_o
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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They DON'T rely on good predictions... They have switch initiative as they go and play by an algorithm. Once you start gaining boosts, they don't need any prediction. Do you really need to predict when you outspeed everything and have 3-4x as much defense as mega aggron?
This is a really interesting topic imo.
Maybe banning more than 2 pokes with bp on the same team?
It is obvious if the opponent it using bp and easy to lead with an appropriate lead. You wouldnt want to lead with your deo-d, you would chose a more offensive lead. Personally i dont have a problem. It has enough checks, unless they are using moldy hawlucha, unaware users are fine
- Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
- If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
- Banning
Maybe banning more than 2 pokes with bp on the same team?
It is obvious if the opponent it using bp and easy to lead with an appropriate lead. You wouldnt want to lead with your deo-d, you would chose a more offensive lead. Personally i dont have a problem. It has enough checks, unless they are using moldy hawlucha, unaware users are fine
setting up alongside BP is by no means a catch-all solution. there are very few things that can smash past +2 vaporeon, let alone +4. pinsir is one of the few things that can do it, maybe zard x, SD bisharp?
even stuff like mega gyarados is hopeless against vaporeon, and once your set-up attempt fails, you just lose. because now they're at +4 and youre back at 0.
im fully on board with a complex ban, i dont think scollipede should be banned because in itself it isnt broken, whether it is on full BP is harder to judge.
like others have said, you pretty much know whether youve won or lost against BP as soon as you see the team preview. that seems to me to most definitely be unhealthy for the metagame.
Predicting roars, predicting taunts, stuff like that?
It's worth noting that Mega Gyarados and Pangoro are both Dark-types with access to Mold Breaker Roar. They're both weak to Fairy though :\
This thread should be required reading to post here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rse-baton-pass.86066/
exactly why it's so obvious
send something out with taunt
they're pretty much forced to go to espeon, but then what if you don't taunt and use a different move instead to take advantage of that?
I'm just thinking out loud. There has to be good ways to get around BP besides using obvious taunts/roars that need to be explored some more, without just giving up and banning something. Remember when people were talking about banning pinsirite because the metagame was unprepared for it? The meta shifted and now it's a lot more prepared for m-pinsir, so it isn't as "overpowered". Can't the same thing happen for BP?
Ok, I think you're overestimating baton pass just a tad. Baton pass is a really strong style, but from my experience, what it can't handle is Special attackers.
Special bombs, like char y, lando-i, or anything with a specs
The thing is, the only way baton pass teams can handle special attackers right off the bat is CM. And CM is slow. It only gets you +1 at a time, and it's hard to rack up boosts when most baton pass members don't have recovery and need to slowly rack up CM boosts whilst hoping they don't get utterly nuked.
There's the crit factor too, baton pass is basically THE playstyle most vulnerable to crits. Ofc, that's not a good argument, but its something to consider.
The big thing i'm trying to say is that if you lead off the bat with hard special hitters, there's little that baton pass can really do.
Things like Lando-I, NP thundurus, Char-Y and Specs Gengar (alexwolf gets credit for this) can just pressure the hell out of baton pass teams early on, and they usually just crumble. I wouldn't think its too hard to fit an NP thundurus into an HO.
For the people that seem to think bp insta defeats stall, that clearly isn't the case as shown by TFL and his stall that he used previously that uses
]
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Scald
- Haze
The gif sums up why stall can deal with bp quite nicely. Though bp do indeed have problems (fuck mega pinsir) and are heavily matchup reliant, they can instantly win against a large amount of different playstyles/teams. Which is what would be considered uncompetitive.
]
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Scald
- Haze
The gif sums up why stall can deal with bp quite nicely. Though bp do indeed have problems (fuck mega pinsir) and are heavily matchup reliant, they can instantly win against a large amount of different playstyles/teams. Which is what would be considered uncompetitive.
that was when baton pass passed mean look so umbreon rekt everything. baton pass is completely different now
can you please read the thread? It's about full baton pass, which really hasnt changed much as an archetype and rarely featured trap passing, but only gotten more powerful.
i suppose this is true, but running roar on mega gyara is like running taunt on thundurus, except worse. there is literally no reason to use it besides stopping BP. and sylveon will still ohko you if it has any boosts
taunt is definitely a viable option on mega gyara but wont stop sylveon
even if the list of viable things that could stop BP was considerably larger, i still think it would be uncompetitive. the fact that certain teams, hell, even whole styles (stall) can do jack shit against it is awful
edit: obviously saying BP always beats stall isnt true but it has huge advantage
It doesn't take long for Stored Power to break Quagsire. A total of 10 boosts are needed to OHKO Quag with Stored Power at 0 SpA, which turns in to 7 with 252 SpA. Keep in mind BP can easily get at least 3 on stall with Scolipede.For the people that seem to think bp insta defeats stall, that clearly isn't the case as shown by TFL and his stall that he used previously that uses
]
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Scald
- Haze
The gif sums up why stall can deal with bp quite nicely. Though bp do indeed have problems (fuck mega pinsir) and are heavily matchup reliant, they can instantly win against a large amount of different playstyles/teams. Which is what would be considered uncompetitive.
For the people that seem to think bp insta defeats stall, that clearly isn't the case as shown by TFL and his stall that he used previously that uses
]
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Scald
- Haze
The gif sums up why stall can deal with bp quite nicely. Though bp do indeed have problems (fuck mega pinsir) and are heavily matchup reliant, they can instantly win against a large amount of different playstyles/teams. Which is what would be considered uncompetitive.
While you're correct for the most part, there is one way for BP to deal with this quagsire set:
Smeargle puts quaggy to sleep with spore
Espeon boosts up and KOs with stored power (the raw Base power will be enough at that point)
Basically, you have to rely on sleep hax :P Keep in mind that mr. mime can learn taunt too.
Since this set will only be on a stall team, baton pass teams have plenty of chances to fish for sleep turns as well.
You need smeargle with spore though, and you need to rely on sleep turns. Thats a big downside to this solution.
Let's clear this up right now: Unaware quagsire is NOT a counter. I am an active user of Quagsire and it takes Espeon 6 boosts (3 CMs, two Smeargle QD, 2 ID+ Speed boost scol) to OHKO with stored power. Remember switch initiative please? They play around it if they have any memory. Smeargle w/spore + espeon makes quagsire die in the process. Not to mention his subpar special defense. In fact, quagsire is bad enough that a scol lead needs two ID boosts to pass to espeon and quag is completely destroyed (+4 def, +2 speed). GG quagsire, not a counter in any sort especially when Sylveon can ram him with Hyper Voice, spore exists... And they can just spam BP after a boost if they expect you're coming in to go directly into espeon and crush you. I've played this scenario multiple times: They have switch initiative. If they abuse it at all, you lose.
It's not just Unaware Quag though, it's Unaware Quag with Haze. There really isn't much BP can do about hazers... They either have to taunt it, sleep it, or kill it before they can really get going. Magic Bounce doesn't do anything, so if they BP out from Scol to Espeon, you just Haze and they have a worthless Espeon. But, haze is kinda obscure, so perhaps the fact that BP encourages you to run it is all the more reason to ban BP.
nigga run haze plz.
Ah, I've been waiting for this for a while. It's obvious that the majority of people don't like Baton Pass, and not just facing it, most tournament players despise the thought of using it, because you are considered to win uncleanly, unfairly, and are disrespected by your peers. The question is obviously whether there should be some method of reducing or eliminating the uncompetitive aspects of it, i.e. the parts that allow a less competent player to beat a more competent one, in the same vein as Swagger. First I am going to answer the questions outlined in the OP.
2. If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Aha. This is also a interesting question. If we assess the individual aspects of Baton Pass, you have the move, a Speed Boost user, Espeon, Mr. Mime, a defensive booster, both physically and specially, and the move Stored Power. The combination of each of these makes this strategy broken; if you got rid of one it would still be able to function (the obvious exception is Baton Pass itself, but I'll get to that). Lets analyse whether the strategy would work if we banned each thing individually, and also what would happen to to other playstyles, ignoring complex bans since there are so many possibilities for that that I will address in a later question. Starting with Baton Pass, this is the main offender, so we can easily say "if we get rid of this, full Baton Pass is no longer possible". However, to answer the second question I posed, how does this affect the rest of the metagame. Well, quite a bit actually. In BW, many people used Baton Pass on Celebi to escape the Pursuit of a Tyranitar. By banning Baton Pass by itself, this becomes obsolete. Another ramification of banning Baton Pass is that we eliminate the "Quick Pass" strategy, where a Pokemon such as Gorebyss, Smeargle, or Venomoth would use a stat-boosting move and pass the boost to a teammate, which would only work once, and it would allow that teammate to attempt to sweep. Therefore, I am opposed to banning Baton Pass by itself. Now for the rest of the possible things to ban, I am not going to talk about the effects that that would have on the metagame because every single other user of those aspects for any other reason would be unable to use it anymore, so I am opposed to banning those things by themselves as well. Lets instead see how Baton Pass would work without those factors. Without a Speed boost user, you would still be able to beat slow, stall teams, and if you manage to obtain a Substitute, a fast opponent isn't really an issue while you KO it. Without Espeon, BP will still wreck teams without a phazer. Without Mr. Mime, BP would wreck teams without Perish Song. Without defensive boosting moves, you can still get enough boosts for Stored Power to be powerful. Without Stored Power, you increase the reliance on offense boosting moves, but you don't stop Espeon from being able to just use Psychic or w/e.
3. Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
It could potentially, but it would limit other strategies with those Pokemon and the issue may still be there as I've sad above.
4. Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
No, again for reasons above.
5. Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Yes, as this is the only way of actually nerfing Baton Pass, but it would take a lot of effort defining which combination breaks Baton Pass as a strategy
Overall, while I want BP gone, I can't justify a way of getting rid of it without limiting other strategies, aside from a complex ban, which would need to be something like "[Mr. Mime + Baton Pass]+[Espeon + Baton Pass]+[Ninjask/Scolipede/Combusken + Baton Pass] + Stored Power". If we can find a simple way of getting this gone, then good. In fact, I might be fine with a blanket ban on Baton Pass if we think that getting rid of BP is much better than BP'ing out of TTar with Celebi, but I don't know if we should.
- Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
2. If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Aha. This is also a interesting question. If we assess the individual aspects of Baton Pass, you have the move, a Speed Boost user, Espeon, Mr. Mime, a defensive booster, both physically and specially, and the move Stored Power. The combination of each of these makes this strategy broken; if you got rid of one it would still be able to function (the obvious exception is Baton Pass itself, but I'll get to that). Lets analyse whether the strategy would work if we banned each thing individually, and also what would happen to to other playstyles, ignoring complex bans since there are so many possibilities for that that I will address in a later question. Starting with Baton Pass, this is the main offender, so we can easily say "if we get rid of this, full Baton Pass is no longer possible". However, to answer the second question I posed, how does this affect the rest of the metagame. Well, quite a bit actually. In BW, many people used Baton Pass on Celebi to escape the Pursuit of a Tyranitar. By banning Baton Pass by itself, this becomes obsolete. Another ramification of banning Baton Pass is that we eliminate the "Quick Pass" strategy, where a Pokemon such as Gorebyss, Smeargle, or Venomoth would use a stat-boosting move and pass the boost to a teammate, which would only work once, and it would allow that teammate to attempt to sweep. Therefore, I am opposed to banning Baton Pass by itself. Now for the rest of the possible things to ban, I am not going to talk about the effects that that would have on the metagame because every single other user of those aspects for any other reason would be unable to use it anymore, so I am opposed to banning those things by themselves as well. Lets instead see how Baton Pass would work without those factors. Without a Speed boost user, you would still be able to beat slow, stall teams, and if you manage to obtain a Substitute, a fast opponent isn't really an issue while you KO it. Without Espeon, BP will still wreck teams without a phazer. Without Mr. Mime, BP would wreck teams without Perish Song. Without defensive boosting moves, you can still get enough boosts for Stored Power to be powerful. Without Stored Power, you increase the reliance on offense boosting moves, but you don't stop Espeon from being able to just use Psychic or w/e.
3. Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
It could potentially, but it would limit other strategies with those Pokemon and the issue may still be there as I've sad above.
4. Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
No, again for reasons above.
5. Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Yes, as this is the only way of actually nerfing Baton Pass, but it would take a lot of effort defining which combination breaks Baton Pass as a strategy
Overall, while I want BP gone, I can't justify a way of getting rid of it without limiting other strategies, aside from a complex ban, which would need to be something like "[Mr. Mime + Baton Pass]+[Espeon + Baton Pass]+[Ninjask/Scolipede/Combusken + Baton Pass] + Stored Power". If we can find a simple way of getting this gone, then good. In fact, I might be fine with a blanket ban on Baton Pass if we think that getting rid of BP is much better than BP'ing out of TTar with Celebi, but I don't know if we should.
How does Sucker Punch help if half of BP is a bunch of non-attacking moves?
Scoli can also pass better and more boosts than Ninjask, and like you said, the typing and stats are better, which make a huge difference.
Part of what makes Baton Pass incredibly stupid is the formulaic nature of the game. We play this game as a PvP game because it's a lot more stimulating than fighting a bunch of scripts. Baton Pass is thoughtless. Spam Sub and Defense boosting until victory, if something is threatening just sash smeargle spore it.
It is nearly a tactic that involves no risk to simply boost defensively then pass to a fresh teammate.. it's not fun at all
It is nearly a tactic that involves no risk to simply boost defensively then pass to a fresh teammate.. it's not fun at all
The thing that I don't get at all about how Baton Pass cannot be stopped in this regard is the fragility of most magic bounce users.
The thing that bothers me is we're talking about nerfing or banning stuff when supposedly it's "cheap" to utilize Magic Bounce + Baton Pass. Xatu and Espeon are fragile as a few sheets of glass, even with screens up. It's extraordinarily simple to switch pokemon or carry something along the lines or Roar or Whirlwind. Even Pokemon with Sound-based moves or Infiltrator can be looked into to getting around the substitutes.
Even if Xatu and Espeon are out, USE SOMETHING ELSE. Knock-off on virtually anything tears through Xatu, Espeon isn't perfect either. It feels like people are losing to baton pass teams ONLY because they are not switching to the correct pokemon to be using. Dark types are practically everywhere in the meta-game to where Xatu and Espeon are not too much of a threat. Scolipede is a fantastic pokemon too but lacks great survivability when Priority is involved. (Also Scolipede HATES burns/paralysis)
As a side note From my own personal experience, Scolipede baton passing is something that has to be set up pretty effectively when Stealth Rocks and Talonflame are even considered into the equation.
Lastly, Haze, Perish Song, Clear Smog. Three moves no-one uses suddenly have a use. Sounds familiar right? Knock-off used to be complete arse before this generation, thanks to it's power buff, it's everywhere possible.
I think the final thought to be put into this is, just how much CAN we "alter" before the game is no longer Pokemon? Smogon is a place for balance, not for altering the game. I respect a number of things the council has looked into and allowed us to discuss but on a personal level, Baton Pass is a strategy that has existed since the beginning with a high-risk - high reward strategy. Accomplishing it is tough, I have yet to see it become "cheap" especially with the high amount of ways to stop it via status, priority, or even entry hazards and weather. There are too many factors which make Baton Pass "cheap or over powered".
It takes time and turns to set up, there are a handful of pokemon that can pull off entire sweeps with just a single boost.
In my opinion, it should be left alone as a legitimate strategy.
EDIT: I should mention I don't run Batonpass myself but have had enough experience against them to know the stratagem is flawed.
EDIT 2.0: I'd like to mention as well that Baton Pass has only become popular solely because it has been "rumored to be suspect tested". I rarely saw this strategy be used up until this past two weeks when it was mentioned.
- Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
- If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
- Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
- Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
- Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
EDIT 3.0: If I were to suggest anything myself in the way of a ban, it'd be to Limit Baton Pass to 3 pokemon on the team only. Banning Espeon or Scolipede because of what they CAN do is completely dumb in this regard, as it'd only hurt teams that use them for other methods.
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There's not a whole lot to be said about this - the most reliable way to beat Baton Pass is to use Haze in conjunction with other powerful attackers such as Talonflame or Mega Pinsir. Currently, the most viable users of Haze are Gengar, Greninja, and Quagsire. I would consider this a hard check, if not a counter to baton pass, but I believe that this is the definition of over centralization.
Baton Pass is still relatively rare but much more popular this generation due to Scolipede/Sylveon. Some of the top players on the ladder have been able to stay at high ranks for extended periods of time due to the baton pass strategy. You either pack an obscure counter, load up on several counters, which may force you to be less effective against more popular play styles, or you lose.
I would support a Complex Ban in the vein of not allowing more than 3 Baton Pass users on a team. This still leaves plenty of leeway for quick pass strategies while nerfing full baton pass chains.
Baton Pass is still relatively rare but much more popular this generation due to Scolipede/Sylveon. Some of the top players on the ladder have been able to stay at high ranks for extended periods of time due to the baton pass strategy. You either pack an obscure counter, load up on several counters, which may force you to be less effective against more popular play styles, or you lose.
I would support a Complex Ban in the vein of not allowing more than 3 Baton Pass users on a team. This still leaves plenty of leeway for quick pass strategies while nerfing full baton pass chains.
- Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
- If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Additionally, I don't think Sylveon gets enough credit. Its typing and bulk make it as much of a staple as Vaporoen. Much like how Scolipede shuts out Physical Attackers, Sylveon puts a leash on Special Attackers. Those qualities also allow it to only need one Acid Armor boost to bring a broken chain back from the jaws of defeat since it can Calm Mind so easily and runs STAB Moonblast or Echoed Voice to bypass Stored Power's need for multiple boosts.
- Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
- Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
- Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
- Status