BH Balanced Hackmons

Balanced Fuckmon

I COULD BE BANNED!
While paralyzing just by switching in certainly was powerful, I think the bigger issue than Cramorant actually is the condition Paralysis itself and how it makes games completely RNG-dependant - and how easily it can be spread with both Cramorant and Nuzzle, which is very easy to slap onto any RegenVest mon. Of course other moves that paralyze exist too, but none of them is as easy to use and has as little risk as Nuzzle. Glare might be magic-bounced or taunted, Zap Cannon requires an ability (No Guard)... but the worst thing that might happen when using Nuzzle is hitting a Rocky Helmet or Spiky Shield and taking a little bit of recoil or htting a Zygarde-C and losing no momentum in the process considering how passive that thing is.

I had many games where we both had almsot all of our mons paralyzed by Nuzzle, and it boiled down to essentially playing russian roulette with RNG. Either my mon moves and I kill the opponent, or it doesn't move and gets killed, same for my opponent's paralyzed mon.

Unlike with Sleep I don't think we should restrict the condition paralysis itself, I think we rather should ban the move Nuzzle, considering that is what makes spreading paralysis so incredibly easy and without any risk.
 

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
While paralyzing just by switching in certainly was powerful, I think the bigger issue than Cramorant actually is the condition Paralysis itself and how it makes games completely RNG-dependant - and how easily it can be spread with both Cramorant and Nuzzle, which is very easy to slap onto any RegenVest mon. Of course other moves that paralyze exist too, but none of them is as easy to use and has as little risk as Nuzzle. Glare might be magic-bounced or taunted, Zap Cannon requires an ability (No Guard)... but the worst thing that might happen when using Nuzzle is hitting a Rocky Helmet or Spiky Shield and taking a little bit of recoil or htting a Zygarde-C and losing no momentum in the process considering how passive that thing is.

I had many games where we both had almsot all of our mons paralyzed by Nuzzle, and it boiled down to essentially playing russian roulette with RNG. Either my mon moves and I kill the opponent, or it doesn't move and gets killed, same for my opponent's paralyzed mon.

Unlike with Sleep I don't think we should restrict the condition paralysis itself, I think we rather should ban the move Nuzzle, considering that is what makes spreading paralysis so incredibly easy and without any risk.
Nuzzle does not put pressure on attackers to always use a move that won't activate gulp missile. What made cram so annoying was the fact that the attacker is punished, not the reciever and cram has good enough stats/typing to take a hit and recover. Parahax is present in basicaly every tier since forever, it's not going away.
 
While paralyzing just by switching in certainly was powerful, I think the bigger issue than Cramorant actually is the condition Paralysis itself and how it makes games completely RNG-dependant - and how easily it can be spread with both Cramorant and Nuzzle, which is very easy to slap onto any RegenVest mon. Of course other moves that paralyze exist too, but none of them is as easy to use and has as little risk as Nuzzle. Glare might be magic-bounced or taunted, Zap Cannon requires an ability (No Guard)... but the worst thing that might happen when using Nuzzle is hitting a Rocky Helmet or Spiky Shield and taking a little bit of recoil or htting a Zygarde-C and losing no momentum in the process considering how passive that thing is.

I had many games where we both had almsot all of our mons paralyzed by Nuzzle, and it boiled down to essentially playing russian roulette with RNG. Either my mon moves and I kill the opponent, or it doesn't move and gets killed, same for my opponent's paralyzed mon.

Unlike with Sleep I don't think we should restrict the condition paralysis itself, I think we rather should ban the move Nuzzle, considering that is what makes spreading paralysis so incredibly easy and without any risk.
*hmjgfnk* heal bell/ aromatherapy *hherfbeks*

whats that eldritch coughing in the background, anyways while you make some good points with most bans high ladder play is usually put at a higher standard and im guessing that its very prediction heavy. using that metric glare does better as you should be able to predict if youre opponet is swithing in an mbounnce mon. plus if their using mbounce on a strange mon like kartana for some godforsaken reason now you've scouted that mons ability and should be able to prepare more effectively for later in the match. while I do agree paralysis is annoying other conditions like burn that puts a big damp on physical attackers and toxic that destabilizes most tanks that arent Pheal and we all know what its like to lose half youre HP to a core enforcer on youre Phealer(s). plus finally there are ways around nuzzle in ground types and (mostly unviable) electrics. through all this I dont think we should ban anything so quickly when cram was just banned about 2 weeks ago and we shouldnt go down a spiral of just banning things until gen 9. if you really want to ban nuzzle/paralysis then you should do a suspect or make a complex ban where you cant be fully parad more than x times in a row or now more than 3 mons can be parad on the enemy team.
sweet jesus' post above me sums up about everything else i didn't cover in this post.
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
One of the problems with teams is that everything in BH has is 4 moveslot syndrome. Bulky shit would much rather have other moves. A lot of the time, you're stuck with recovery in one slot, Spectral Thief / Anchor Shot / Core Enforcer in another, and a lot of bulky mons really want to pivot so it's not uncommon to have U-turn / Flip Turn. It's fairly common to have the job of the mon be entirely reliant on whatever is in its 4th slot, be it hazards, various support like Heal Bell, hazards and hazard removal, Haze, and as you mentioned, Nuzzle.

Nuzzle isn't that common unless you find someone who builds around it, since only Pikachu and some walls really benefit from it. A paralyzed Zacian-C is still going to outspeed most walls on account of them running min speed. Yeah, you still end up losing any speed ties to other offensive mons that Zacian-C could have outsped, but that's on you for not scouting the mon or KOing it with Zacian-C. People largely use paralysis in BH to make Pikachu less risky to use. In gen 7, you used to see people use it in tandem with Hex Mega Gengar, but there is a discrete lack of Ghost-types as good as Mega Gengar once was. The only thing that comes close is Spectrier, which I have found to be gimmicky and largely unreliable.

Now, I can see both sides regarding Cramorant, and I don't really feel ready to share my opinion regarding Cramorant / the metagame yet, but Nuzzle is genuinely not banworthy. It was better in Gen 7 than this one, and even then it wasn't overpowered/uncompetitive, mostly being relegated to gimmick teams.
 
One of the problems with teams is that everything in BH has is 4 moveslot syndrome. Bulky shit would much rather have other moves. A lot of the time, you're stuck with recovery in one slot, Spectral Thief / Anchor Shot / Core Enforcer in another, and a lot of bulky mons really want to pivot so it's not uncommon to have U-turn / Flip Turn. It's fairly common to have the job of the mon be entirely reliant on whatever is in its 4th slot, be it hazards, various support like Heal Bell, hazards and hazard removal, Haze, and as you mentioned, Nuzzle.

Nuzzle isn't that common unless you find someone who builds around it, since only Pikachu and some walls really benefit from it.
I disagree, bulky mons doesn't benefit all that much from running nuzzle, you rather see it on regenvest sets or offensive mons:

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Nuzzle
- Fishious Rend
- Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Nuzzle
- Recover
- Filler

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Nuzzle
- Play Rough/V-Create
- Glacial Lance/filler
- Filler

Xerneas @ Metronome/Pixie plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nuzzle
- Boomburst
- Quiver Dance
- Strength Sap

Palkia and xern are prime examples of nuzzle abusers where they only are good for 1 - 2 moves each and yes nuzzle and or glare are seen on almost any team now as it is very efficient to shut down balance teams.
 
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Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
No offense, I don't think those sets are very good. I don't see why you'd run non-Spin Xerneas or Nuzzle on a mon which can 2HKO damn near anything in the tier reliably (Zacian-C). That Zamazenta-C set is frankly strange as fuck to me (psea Zama-C is fine, the moveset is what makes it odd). The only one I could see being used is Palkia, mainly for the surprise factor.

I also don't think Regenvest is used in this generation much any more in favor of Ice Scales. So yes, it actually is largely limited to bulky mons.
 

Balanced Fuckmon

I COULD BE BANNED!
No offense, I don't think those sets are very good. I don't see why you'd run non-Spin Xerneas or Nuzzle on a mon which can 2HKO damn near anything in the tier reliably (Zacian-C). That Zamazenta-C set is frankly strange as fuck to me (psea Zama-C is fine, the moveset is what makes it odd). The only one I could see being used is Palkia, mainly for the surprise factor.

I also don't think Regenvest is used in this generation much any more in favor of Ice Scales. So yes, it actually is largely limited to bulky mons.
Same thing I was going to write. Nobody wants to waste a moveslot for Nuzzle -especially some powercarrier like Xerneas- put it on a Prankster mon instead, or a wall.

By the way I realized my elo goes down if I don't play a game...
 
I disagree, bulky mons doesn't benefit all that much from running nuzzle, you rather see it on regenvest sets or offensive mons:

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Nuzzle
- Fishious Rend
- Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Nuzzle
- Recover
- Filler

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Nuzzle
- Play Rough/V-Create
- Glacial Lance/filler
- Filler

Xerneas @ Metronome/Pixie plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nuzzle
- Boomburst
- Quiver Dance
- Strength Sap

Palkia and xern are prime examples of nuzzle abusers where they only are good for 1 - 2 moves each and yes nuzzle and or glare are seen on almost any team now as it is very efficient to shut down balance teams.
Sorry but nobody really runs nuzzle on a Palkia or Xerneas instead of rapid spin/steam eruption/water spout which are much more important and useful on those sets. Also the Zamazenta seems like a gimmick, most Zamazenta run defensive and support sets and if it's a sweeper it's probably shift gear or something along those lines.
 
hey I just looked over the ban list and why is innards out banned. to me it seems like discount gambit as you have to actually faint before activated while gambit just works based on speed tiers making it more reliable. I mean any mon with an hp stat of ~110 can instakill with it since most tanks like zama- c only have base 92, and most others have around that range. of course things like gira and zygarde exist but most of the time these things are pretty passive unless you're using them in a weird way.
p.s before anyone says check the original thread i did and to me it feels more like a gen 7 thing that isnt as bad gen 8 and while im not arguing to unban I would like to understand why it would be banned in the current meta
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
hey I just looked over the ban list and why is innards out banned. to me it seems like discount gambit as you have to actually faint before activated while gambit just works based on speed tiers making it more reliable. I mean any mon with an hp stat of ~110 can instakill with it since most tanks like zama- c only have base 92, and most others have around that range. of course things like gira and zygarde exist but most of the time these things are pretty passive unless you're using them in a weird way.
p.s before anyone says check the original thread i did and to me it feels more like a gen 7 thing that isnt as bad gen 8 and while im not arguing to unban I would like to understand why it would be banned in the current meta
People would use Chansey with min defenses (0 Defense/Special Defense IVs, -SpD nature iirc) to get a free OHKO on anything remotely threatening. It was uncompetitive for that reason alone. If you were up against a Shell Smash mon last gen and couldn't check it, no problem, throw out Chansey and the problem disappears.
 
People would use Chansey with min defenses (0 Defense/Special Defense IVs, -SpD nature iirc) to get a free OHKO on anything remotely threatening. It was uncompetitive for that reason alone. If you were up against a Shell Smash mon last gen and couldn't check it, no problem, throw out Chansey and the problem disappears.
that seam't to be the main reason that I read about but why didn't they just complex ban like how comatalk is banned as this seems to only really apply to the chansey line as everything else with that much health was too bulky for you to be getting maximum damage out of it or could just run a more viable ability.
also how does innards out relate to gambit as to me they seem to be very similar strats with one being more reliable (gambit since prankster giratina with it is pretty decent for getting rid of threats or walls you cant manage while some other mons can use it semi well)
also I was asking how it would affect the current meta if it was introduced as to me this looks like a very different meta than USUM
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Quick comments on Nuzzle:
To start, Nuzzle is not an uncompetitive or unhealthy move. I briefly touched on Nuzzle in my last post, but the move really isn't that easy to use in practice. Offensive and defensive mons can use it for team support by crippling opposing mons, but this means they have to sacrifice other utility options or coverage to run this move and need to devote an imposter-proof teammate to absorb Nuzzle. Paralysis is annoying to play around, there is no doubt about that, but there are plenty of ways to work around it.
Sorry but nobody really runs nuzzle on a Palkia
This is just incorrect. Glare is more common, though.

On Innards Out:
This ability is nowhere near being on the same level as Final Gambit. To effectively use Final Gambit, you need a specific mon, like Choice Scarf Zygarde-C, with a specific ability, typically Scrappy, and you need to move first to deal maximum damage. These requirements leave a lot of room for things to go wrong for the Final Gambit user, while the Innards Out user simply has to be switched into an attack. Sure, leading with Scarf Scrappy Final Gambit might pick up a kill turn 1, but Scarf Gambit can't really do much to something like -ate Extreme Speed or setup sweepers like Regigigas and Xerneas once they've boosted.

Here are some of the things that Chansey is OHKOed by.
252 Atk Giratina U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 997-1174 (141.6 - 166.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Giratina U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 614-723 (87.2 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Tapu Fini Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 688-810 (97.7 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Registeel U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 831-978 (118 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Umbreon Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 649-765 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Pixilate Magearna Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 751-885 (106.6 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Being able to send Chansey in to bomb walls that are using relatively weak utility moves and just erase them from existence is pretty stupid. Blissey can do pretty much the same thing. You can minimize their special bulk too, but when I used it I preferred to use 252 HP / 252 SpD with Metal Burst to play around special attackers and have some utility outside of being sent in to die.

Innards Out isn't limited to the Chansey line, either. Basically anything with around Xerneas / Yveltal bulk and higher can use this ability and pick up random KOs. Giratina and Zygarde-C can just eliminate guys like Glance Zacian-C, the Kyurems, Eternatus and Xerneas by switching in. It can be used offensively by bulky mons like Lunala and Xerneas that can set up with Quiver Dance and threaten to KO things offensively while also threatening to KO anyone brave enough to hit it with Spectral Thief or attempt a revenge kill.

Innards Out would not be a good addition to the metagame. It leads to unhealthy gameplay, dangerous 50/50s, and a lot more. Notice I didn't even discuss it when I recently touched on the ban list because it is just a broken ability.
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
innards out is dumb cause basically you can trade off any opposing pokemon. this goes beyond the scope of just killing zacc or whatever-- innards typically is used to remove key defensive pokemon as punishment for touching it. here's one example of a core you might run:

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Spore

Guzzlord @ Custap Berry
Ability: Innards Out
Level: 78
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Dragon Energy
- Metal Burst
- Destiny Bond
- Wicked Blow

guzzlord's set can probably be optimized a bit but the idea here is pretty simple. you have a guy that gets walled by opposing gira. if gira clicks core vs guzzlord, it dies immediately so regi wins after. gira cannot avoid this with minimum spa investment: 0- SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. Lvl 78 252 HP / 0- SpD Guzzlord: 510-600 (100.1 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO it's also worth noting that guzzlord dies to most things from offensive teams, so it'll also help regi from getting overwhelmed in the offense matchup.

regi can then stack on other teammates that appreciate giratina being gone, or are built to counter entrain variants (like another ph normal with sub). how does giratina respond to this? certainly, asking players to carry 2 forms of counterplay to each offensive threat is just unreasonable. unless......defensive innards out!!!! if you remove the sub normal with defensive innards, then entrain giratina will do just fine vs the remaining ph regi + guzzlord core.

any offensive threat can become easily unstoppable with an innards user, and this isn't even getting into the innards """counterplay""" on offensive mons (false swipe mmx saw use last gen, for instance). it creates a volatile environment where games are decided extremely quickly and creativity is traded into the ground.

i mentioned guzzlord above, but there are quite a few problematic innards users besides chansey/blissey. here are some of em:

- 0- Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Happiny: 737-868 (216.1 - 254.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO and zama has less hp
- 252 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Rapid Spin vs. Lvl 86 252 HP / 0- Def Wailmer: 400-472 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO, xern takes 90%. alternatively:
- 252+ SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Wailord: 633-745 (116.3 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (you run max def + helmet to beat min atk spin, xern dies if it boombursts you)

and this isn't even getting into setup innards. to be fair these have received a nerf since last gen with smash ban, but np core resh/np min spdef yveltal/similar sets can be ridiculously effective at forcing weird trades and causing chaos even if you try to play super carefully with stall.

double innards also saw a lot of use because it's like innards but instead of their best mon you remove their best 2 mons and are less at risk of getting a matchup where your innards guy doesn't get ohkod. fairly unfunny.

that should be everything
 
innards out is dumb cause basically you can trade off any opposing pokemon. this goes beyond the scope of just killing zacc or whatever-- innards typically is used to remove key defensive pokemon as punishment for touching it. here's one example of a core you might run:

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Spore

Guzzlord @ Custap Berry
Ability: Innards Out
Level: 78
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Dragon Energy
- Metal Burst
- Destiny Bond
- Wicked Blow

guzzlord's set can probably be optimized a bit but the idea here is pretty simple. you have a guy that gets walled by opposing gira. if gira clicks core vs guzzlord, it dies immediately so regi wins after. gira cannot avoid this with minimum spa investment: 0- SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. Lvl 78 252 HP / 0- SpD Guzzlord: 510-600 (100.1 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO it's also worth noting that guzzlord dies to most things from offensive teams, so it'll also help regi from getting overwhelmed in the offense matchup.

regi can then stack on other teammates that appreciate giratina being gone, or are built to counter entrain variants (like another ph normal with sub). how does giratina respond to this? certainly, asking players to carry 2 forms of counterplay to each offensive threat is just unreasonable. unless......defensive innards out!!!! if you remove the sub normal with defensive innards, then entrain giratina will do just fine vs the remaining ph regi + guzzlord core.

any offensive threat can become easily unstoppable with an innards user, and this isn't even getting into the innards """counterplay""" on offensive mons (false swipe mmx saw use last gen, for instance). it creates a volatile environment where games are decided extremely quickly and creativity is traded into the ground.

i mentioned guzzlord above, but there are quite a few problematic innards users besides chansey/blissey. here are some of em:

- 0- Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Happiny: 737-868 (216.1 - 254.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO and zama has less hp
- 252 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Rapid Spin vs. Lvl 86 252 HP / 0- Def Wailmer: 400-472 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO, xern takes 90%. alternatively:
- 252+ SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Wailord: 633-745 (116.3 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (you run max def + helmet to beat min atk spin, xern dies if it boombursts you)

and this isn't even getting into setup innards. to be fair these have received a nerf since last gen with smash ban, but np core resh/np min spdef yveltal/similar sets can be ridiculously effective at forcing weird trades and causing chaos even if you try to play super carefully with stall.

double innards also saw a lot of use because it's like innards but instead of their best mon you remove their best 2 mons and are less at risk of getting a matchup where your innards guy doesn't get ohkod. fairly unfunny.

that should be everything
Quick comments on Nuzzle:
To start, Nuzzle is not an uncompetitive or unhealthy move. I briefly touched on Nuzzle in my last post, but the move really isn't that easy to use in practice. Offensive and defensive mons can use it for team support by crippling opposing mons, but this means they have to sacrifice other utility options or coverage to run this move and need to devote an imposter-proof teammate to absorb Nuzzle. Paralysis is annoying to play around, there is no doubt about that, but there are plenty of ways to work around it.

This is just incorrect. Glare is more common, though.

On Innards Out:
This ability is nowhere near being on the same level as Final Gambit. To effectively use Final Gambit, you need a specific mon, like Choice Scarf Zygarde-C, with a specific ability, typically Scrappy, and you need to move first to deal maximum damage. These requirements leave a lot of room for things to go wrong for the Final Gambit user, while the Innards Out user simply has to be switched into an attack. Sure, leading with Scarf Scrappy Final Gambit might pick up a kill turn 1, but Scarf Gambit can't really do much to something like -ate Extreme Speed or setup sweepers like Regigigas and Xerneas once they've boosted.

Here are some of the things that Chansey is OHKOed by.
252 Atk Giratina U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 997-1174 (141.6 - 166.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Giratina U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 614-723 (87.2 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Tapu Fini Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 688-810 (97.7 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Registeel U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 831-978 (118 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Umbreon Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 649-765 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Pixilate Magearna Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chansey: 751-885 (106.6 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Being able to send Chansey in to bomb walls that are using relatively weak utility moves and just erase them from existence is pretty stupid. Blissey can do pretty much the same thing. You can minimize their special bulk too, but when I used it I preferred to use 252 HP / 252 SpD with Metal Burst to play around special attackers and have some utility outside of being sent in to die.

Innards Out isn't limited to the Chansey line, either. Basically anything with around Xerneas / Yveltal bulk and higher can use this ability and pick up random KOs. Giratina and Zygarde-C can just eliminate guys like Glance Zacian-C, the Kyurems, Eternatus and Xerneas by switching in. It can be used offensively by bulky mons like Lunala and Xerneas that can set up with Quiver Dance and threaten to KO things offensively while also threatening to KO anyone brave enough to hit it with Spectral Thief or attempt a revenge kill.

Innards Out would not be a good addition to the metagame. It leads to unhealthy gameplay, dangerous 50/50s, and a lot more. Notice I didn't even discuss it when I recently touched on the ban list because it is just a broken ability.
alright thanks for the clarification i was just asking as too me it seemed like a gimmick like imprisonform but the ways you guys described it does make it sound bannable, and unhealthy for the meta.
 
Okay, so a bit of background to this set - I used to play a lot of Nat Dex BH back when that was a thing, and after posting a team I had found success with, ChampionLeon (who was one of the best NDBH players IMO) recommended me this Mega-Gengar set to improof my Normalize Gigas and Triage Rayquaza:

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Judgment
- Sludge Bomb
- Secret Sword


The basic premise of this set was that A. it improofed my team's offensive core, and more importantly B. it was an absolute monster even ignoring it's improofing. Mega-Gengar baits in priority moves since people expect Normalize Entrainment, and Dazzling just shuts down priority moves. Moreover, as a fast glass cannon, Gengar is really weak to priority moves, so Dazzling makes sweeping with Gengar-M much more viable. Lastly, this set also self-improofs with Spooky Plate Judgement (and though Chansey/Blissey still has Sludge Bomb, Sludge Bomb just doesn't do any damage to Gengar).

Anyhow, Mega-Gengar (and along with it, Judgement) went poof in Gen 8, so a physical attacker with Multi-Attack is pretty much the only option if I wanna keep using this set. Moreover, using a Ghost type seems ideal as it lets you run a Fighting move to cover the two types that resist/are immune to Ghost while still improofing. The obvious choice here seems like Dragapult, but we immediately run into a slight problem, being Dragapult's pitiful 120 Atk stat. However, I can't think of a better mon (Blacephalon is an option as it could run a mixed set to be a better nuke, but it's 107 Speed isn't the best, and it's so frail that it's really risky to switch into without a slow pivot), so here's the Dragapult set I've decided to use:

Dragapult @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Close Combat
- Shift Gear
- Destiny Bond


A few things I'm debating - Jolly vs Adamant, Shift Gear vs. DD, and the last move. The first two are quite self explanatory, but for the last move, I picked Destiny Bond because not only is it very funny, but I feel like it'll be quite helpful is Xern or something similar is threatening to tear holes in my team. There are quite a few other options though, including Taunt, Sub, Strength Sap, and really just any other support move. Anyhow though, I'd love any advice as I'm still getting used to Gen 8 BH.
 
Though the Dragapult set is self improof and immune to priority, that is really all it has going for it. Bulky fc walls such as Zamazenta-C and Giratina can take even a +1 Multi Attack and spectral thief Dragapult, instantly killing it. The difference in attacking stats (170 for Gengar vs 120 for Dragapult) means that Prank Haze walls such as Registeel can PP stall supereffective Close Combat (252 Atk Dragapult Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Most prank Registeels run a crippling move so they really only have to survive one of those and then they can pivot out into a check. Also, even though you get perfect neutral coverage with your two attacks, you don't get great supereffective coverage, and the Dragon typing does Dragapult no good. If you insist on running the set, I would recommend a utility move so you aren't committed to a late game sweeping role, such as Willl-o-Wisp to hit Spectral Thief walls. But really you'd just be better with another sweeper like

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 Spd / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear / Dragon Dance
- Facade
- Glacial Lance / Knock Off
- Sacred Fire / Spore / U-Turn

With far more bulk so it can take neutral priority moves easily, a stronger attack stat, STAB on a 140 BP move with 32 PP as compared to a 120 BP move with 16, no reliance on its item once Toxic Orb is activated meaning it eats Knock Off, self improofness and immunity to Spectral Thief, Gigas is better in just about every way. Plus you can customize the moves to beat almost anything. Having trouble with FC Zamac? Run Spore and V-Create and that dies. FC Giratina is 2hKOed by Glacial Lance so that often just drops if you can spore it or get off some chip. Are people using Anchor Shot and Entrainment to beat Gigas? Run U-Turn, and you can still get off useful damage at +1. Dragapult can't fill the same role, which is why it's worse.
 
Hey everybody! I just want to say really quickly that I'm super happy to have joined the council and I'm excited to help guide and develop this metagame.

A little bit about me: I've been playing Balanced Hackmons since gen6bh. I've been on and off throughout gen6 and 7, before starting to really get deep into the meta around the time shell smash was getting suspected. After getting to the finals of the BH Open in March, I began to develop a really strong grasp of the metagame, and eventually, I was asked to join BH council, so here I am. I'd also like to talk about what you should expect from me as a council member and my ideals.

My philosophy with building up a metagame in general and banning things is that I want to be very precarious with everything that might be suspected, quick-banned, or unbanned. I want to make sure that all metagame changes are generally understood by everyone, and that even if someone might not agree with a change made, they can see and understand the possible reasoning behind it (this includes the BH boomers who might look at the banlist and be like "WHAT THE HECK. COUNCIL HAS RUINED THIS METAGAME.")

Anywhase, I'd like to transition from this to some of my thoughts about the BH metagame.

I think as of this moment, BH is at the best place it's ever been since the start of gen8. There is room for a lot of dynamic play, and the meta now favors more proactive teams overall. Throughout these past few weeks, since the cram ban, I've seen a ton of different teams being developed, all ranging from the slowest of stall teams, to some neat HO ideas. The meta is currently in a pretty good space, however I do believe that a discussion about Zacian-Crowned's presence in it is necessary to be had because its presence to some can seem quite unhealthy.

There is no one pokemon more constraining to team building than Zacian-C. The coverage that Zacian-C has available to it, Glacial Lance, Bolt Strike, Sunsteel Strike, Play Rough, Fishious Rend, Precipice Blades, Close Combat, and V-Create; means that it can really pick and choose which pokemon it wants to own, and it has the ability to OHKO nearly any pokemon in the metagame that doesn't have fc. Thus, FC is often times mandated to stop Zacian-C. However, many of these pokemon are forced be extremely passive, as they have to click recover every time they come in on Zac-C since they'd be generally 3hkoed by most of its moves. The other issue is that Zac-C doesn't even have to hit them with direct damage. It can make an insane amount of progress too with hazards, or even kill them with imprisonform( barring they're not Giratina or shed shell fc). Zac-C can also run nuzzle or sticky webs on HO and BO teams to cripple these pokemon that are forced to come in on Zac-C because of its move set.

Currently, the most effective checks to Zacian-Crowned are FC Giratina, FC Palkia, FC Swampert, FC Zamazenta-Crowned, and terrible sap + Recover Prankster pokemon. Some Primordial Sea Steals, or Volt Absorb Ho-oh variants can also work, however they can simply get one shot by some of the coverage moves I previously listed, thus these aren't reliable. These FC pokemon have to be kept at max hp often times because coverage moves such as Glance or Play Rough will do too much to Giratina and Palkia, forcing the user into a losing situation. Zac-C can also make progress another way on these pokemon by setting up hazards and because of this and for the aforementioned reasons I don't consider these pokemon counters, I consider them checks, which bring me to my next point. There is no counter to Zacian-Crowned. I really want to make this clear. There is no one mon that exists which can counter all the Zac-C sets, a situation which can draw parallels to that of Mega-Rayquaza in gen7bh purely from how muc the two warped their respective metagames at the time.

Also, something which Mray didn't have that Zac-C boasts, is one of the best defensive typings in balanced hackmons. Stesl-Fairy allows Zacian-Crowned to switch into many offensive pokemon such as Xerneas, Kyurem-White & Black, and Eternatus, This allows the user to be able to make a ton of safe midgrounds, allowing the them to gain a ton of momentum and make progress, while simultaneously denying it. Zacian-Crowns immunity to dragon allows it to switch into many of the dragon pokemon which populate gen8bh and at times can make them ineffective purely by its defensive stats and typing. This makes it very difficult to stop Zacian-Crowned from coming in during a match.

With all these in mind, it can undoubtedly be said that the metagame has dramatically warped around Zacian-Crowned. Zac-C puts a lot of strain on the teambuilder, and forces one to not only prep for a variety of different Zacian-C sets but to also make sure that it doesn't lose to "all the other ones". There are always a few Zac-C sets which a team cannot stop from making progress and managing a game against such a Zacian-C is extremely difficult because of its ability to safely come in on a lot of pokemon. For these reasons mentioned above, many might think that Zacian-C's presence is very restricting for the metagame, both in the teambuilder and while playing.

However, some may argue that Zacian-Crowned's presence is inherently not a bad thing for the meta. Because of how effectively Zacian-Crowned is at making progress, it forces all the other guys to be equally proactive and deter it out and give it less opportunities to come in. This speeds up the metagame, and forces people to play very proactively, which to me is a good indicator of a healthy metagame.

I personally, am not quite sure. I could see myself leaning both sides. I hope this post is able to spur some conversations about Zacian-C and that we can get to a better answer, as weather its presence is healthy or not.

Anywhase, I look forward to working with you all and I hope we can steer the metagame in the right direction!
 
Currently, the most effective checks to Zacian-Crowned are FC Giratina, FC Palkia, FC Swampert, FC Zamazenta-Crowned, and terrible sap + Recover Prankster pokemon. Some Primordial Sea Steals, or Volt Absorb Ho-oh variants can also work, however they can simply get one shot by some of the coverage moves I previously listed, thus these aren't reliable. These FC pokemon have to be kept at max hp often times because coverage moves such as Glance or Play Rough will do too much to Giratina and Palkia, forcing the user into a losing situation.
Suicune and doublade are also very effective checks and extremely good FC mons in general using moves like scald and will o wisp to cripple zacian which really suffers more than ever from the 4 move syndrome, they can even run hazard themselves or court change to negate zacians progress.

Because Zacian runs stealth rocks, nuzzle, anchor, imprison, strength sap etc it leaves it very susceptible to status and getting trapped.

Which leads me to this set:

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Low Kick/body press
- Taunt
- Recover

"There is no counter to Zacian-Crowned. I really want to make this clear. There is no one mon that exists which can counter all the Zac-C sets"

On top of my head this zamazenta set does about that and more and my personal take is that zacian is manageable and healthy for the overall pace of the metagame.
 
Suicune and doublade are also very effective checks and extremely good FC mons in general using moves like scald and will o wisp to cripple zacian which really suffers more than ever from the 4 move syndrome, they can even run hazard themselves or court change to negate zacians progress.

Because Zacian runs stealth rocks, nuzzle, anchor, imprison, strength sap etc it leaves it very susceptible to status and getting trapped.

Which leads me to this set:

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Low Kick/body press
- Taunt
- Recover

"There is no counter to Zacian-Crowned. I really want to make this clear. There is no one mon that exists which can counter all the Zac-C sets"

On top of my head this zamazenta set does about that and more and my personal take is that zacian is manageable and healthy for the overall pace of the metagame.
this set doesn't even check either set, you still manage to lose to both the breaker set and the imprison-trap set.

the first issue I see is that you don't really have a way to stop it. Sure you can survive a few hits, but given that you don't have passive recovery or hazard immunity, you would be very susceptible to being worn down by external factors.

I understand what you were going for to stop the imprison-trap set, but it doesn't exactly work due to the taunt's mechanics. While it is true that you can stop the imprison or transform for a short while, but once those 3 turns are up, it can set up and eliminate it.

another issue I saw was you are nearly incapable of actually threatening it out, which kinda makes it fail at its only job.
 
this set doesn't even check either set, you still manage to lose to both the breaker set and the imprison-trap set.

the first issue I see is that you don't really have a way to stop it. Sure you can survive a few hits, but given that you don't have passive recovery or hazard immunity, you would be very susceptible to being worn down by external factors.

I understand what you were going for to stop the imprison-trap set, but it doesn't exactly work due to the taunt's mechanics. While it is true that you can stop the imprison or transform for a short while, but once those 3 turns are up, it can set up and eliminate it.

another issue I saw was you are nearly incapable of actually threatening it out, which kinda makes it fail at its only job.

Lets do some math; assuming worst case with Adamant Zacian - C + V-create, zacian gets a jump start and uses V-create on your zamazenta switchin:

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-260 (56.7 - 67%)

Lets assume you do a max damage roll (67%) and for each hit you take 1/6 health from rocky helmet.

After 1 hit you also get -1 defense and speed which is key here.

Zamazenta recovers 50 % hp with recover --> (67-50+67) = 84 hp remaining.

252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Low Kick (120 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 282-333 (72.6 - 85.8%) + (2/6)*100 = 33.3 % from Rocky helmet chip. 72.6 (assuming min roll) + 33.3 = 105 Fatal.

This is also if Zacian is at full health, with lower health you can potentially kill it with x1 rocky helmet chip+ a low kick on -1.



When it comes to the imprison set lets also consider the worst start for Zamazenta: Zacian uses imprison turn 1:

Recognizing this you switch into Zamazenta. Turn 2 Zacian can either transform and you just switch out safely and no harm done or zacian uses anchor shot, but regardless you click Taunt turn 2. Zacian is now forced to attack you which will result in dying by staying in from Rocky helmet chip + lowkick. Zacian is forced out regardless.
 
Lets do some math; assuming worst case with Adamant Zacian - C + V-create, zacian gets a jump start and uses V-create on your zamazenta switchin:

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-260 (56.7 - 67%)

Lets assume you do a max damage roll (67%) and for each hit you take 1/6 health from rocky helmet.

After 1 hit you also get -1 defense and speed which is key here.

Zamazenta recovers 50 % hp with recover --> (67-50+67) = 84 hp remaining.

252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Low Kick (120 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 282-333 (72.6 - 85.8%) + (2/6)*100 = 33.3 % from Rocky helmet chip. 72.6 (assuming min roll) + 33.3 = 105 Fatal.

This is also if Zacian is at full health, with lower health you can potentially kill it with x1 rocky helmet chip+ a low kick on -1.



When it comes to the imprison set lets also consider the worst start for Zamazenta: Zacian uses imprison turn 1:

Recognizing this you switch into Zamazenta. Turn 2 Zacian can either transform and you just switch out safely and no harm done or zacian uses anchor shot, but regardless you click Taunt turn 2. Zacian is now forced to attack you which will result in dying by staying in from Rocky helmet chip + lowkick. Zacian is forced out regardless.
you do realize imprison-form always runs strength sap?

also, what do you do against p-blades zac-c?
 

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