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BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
the problem i have with metal burst is that it completely nullifies kanga's ability to beat bulky mons like tina. as they will either outslow, outspeed and manage to heal up vs kanga, recover up rather then attacking, or just outright fail to deal enough damage to KO in return. night shade provides reliable damage, while having 252 speed ensures that you outpace non speed natured tina to reliably KO it amonst other base 90 walls.
Hello I am new to this meta and have been wanting to get into it so i went do the samples but when i click on the 5th sample by wildbeast i get the 2ed sample's pokepast by elmustacho and I have done this multiple times to make sure i am not just misclicking.
sorry, should be fixed now
Hello everyone! it's my first post and i want to share some sets in bh7
Kyurem-Black @ electrium Z/life orb
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- return
- fusion bolt/bolt strike
- Sunsteel Strike/thousand arrows
Manectric-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Blue Flare
- Blizzard
- Volt Switch
Gengar-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Venoshock
- baneful bunker/leech seed
- Toxic spikes/toxic
kyurem black is Z-move on freeze shock, with extreme speed boosted by refrigerate it will be a powerfull priority STAB which will be able to deals serious damages to zygarde , garchomp and rayquaza, electric moves is an incredible coverage especially for water types pokemon has primo kyogre, volt tackle deals serious damage but has recoil, fusion bolt deals cool damages and cant miss and bolt strike deals terrific damages but can miss at 15%. thousands arrows hit steel types pokemons and sunsteel strike can hit sturdy-shedinja.
manectric-mega has no guard and can't miss, played with zap cannon, it has a powerful STAB which has a 100% chance to paralysis , blue flare and blizzard can OHKOs every steel/grass/dragon/ground pokemons in the game, especially garchomp-mega and aegislash and can deals a 96% damage to zygarde100%. thanks to volt switch it can outpass anchor shots and trap moves has magma storm and deals correct damages. with this set manectric can sweep a team first turn when properly used.
Gengar-mega is bulky, it can toxic problematics pokemon and deals serious damages to them with boosted venoshock and hex which will be critical thanks to merciless, moongeist beam can hit shedinja and deals serious damage to the foe if cant be toxic (steel type or abilities which immune to toxic) thanks to its black sludge it will be able to survive to powerful moves has draco meteor for example.
ps: I'm french so my english is bad .~.
Kyurem-Black @ electrium Z/life orb
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- return
- fusion bolt/bolt strike
- Sunsteel Strike/thousand arrows
Manectric-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Blue Flare
- Blizzard
- Volt Switch
Gengar-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Venoshock
- baneful bunker/leech seed
- Toxic spikes/toxic
kyurem black is Z-move on freeze shock, with extreme speed boosted by refrigerate it will be a powerfull priority STAB which will be able to deals serious damages to zygarde , garchomp and rayquaza, electric moves is an incredible coverage especially for water types pokemon has primo kyogre, volt tackle deals serious damage but has recoil, fusion bolt deals cool damages and cant miss and bolt strike deals terrific damages but can miss at 15%. thousands arrows hit steel types pokemons and sunsteel strike can hit sturdy-shedinja.
manectric-mega has no guard and can't miss, played with zap cannon, it has a powerful STAB which has a 100% chance to paralysis , blue flare and blizzard can OHKOs every steel/grass/dragon/ground pokemons in the game, especially garchomp-mega and aegislash and can deals a 96% damage to zygarde100%. thanks to volt switch it can outpass anchor shots and trap moves has magma storm and deals correct damages. with this set manectric can sweep a team first turn when properly used.
Gengar-mega is bulky, it can toxic problematics pokemon and deals serious damages to them with boosted venoshock and hex which will be critical thanks to merciless, moongeist beam can hit shedinja and deals serious damage to the foe if cant be toxic (steel type or abilities which immune to toxic) thanks to its black sludge it will be able to survive to powerful moves has draco meteor for example.
ps: I'm french so my english is bad .~.
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Some comments I'd like to make about this
Kyurem-Black:
-Volt Tackle is pretty bad unless you're magic guard
-Freeze Shock has pretty much no use in BH, you're better off using Boomburst even with the lower Sp Atk stat
-248 Hp lets it switch into rocks an extra time since it leaves it with an odd Hp number
-Kyurem-Black usually appreciates a support move of some kind in the fourth slot like King's Shield, Shell Smash, etc but can do without it, it's really up to preference.
Mega Manectric:
-Mega Manectric is outclassed by virtually every other current meta special attacker.
-Blue Flare is pretty much outclassed by Inferno on No Guard sets.
-No Guard sets usually like having a sleep move (not Spore) like Sing or Grass Whistle since they ignore safety goggles and can go through substitutes which can be very helpful.
-Mega Manectric is VERY outclassed by virtually every other current meta special attacker.
Mega Gengar:
-Mega Gengar is not bulky, it is considered one of the frailest pokemon in the meta.
252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gengar-Mega: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
Mega Rayquaza, without any boosts, any damage boosting item or ability, and a neutral nature has about 1/3 chance of 2HKOing Mega Gengar. Almost any Mega Rayquaza can OHKO Mega Gengar after being given an item and an ability and Mega Gengar can't OHKO Mega Rayquaza unless it uses Ice Beam, Fleur Cannon, or Light of Ruin.
0 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 354-416 (109.2 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Mewtwo Y (MMY for short) can OHKO Mega Gengar with its signature, and very common STAB move, Psystrike without any special attack investment.
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 105-124 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 111-132 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 114-135 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 154-183 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kyogre-Primal Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Gengar is, at best, 3HKO'd by the entire meta except by extremely passive walls like Registeel and Mega Audino.
Mega Rayquaza, without any boosts, any damage boosting item or ability, and a neutral nature has about 1/3 chance of 2HKOing Mega Gengar. Almost any Mega Rayquaza can OHKO Mega Gengar after being given an item and an ability and Mega Gengar can't OHKO Mega Rayquaza unless it uses Ice Beam, Fleur Cannon, or Light of Ruin.
0 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 354-416 (109.2 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Mewtwo Y (MMY for short) can OHKO Mega Gengar with its signature, and very common STAB move, Psystrike without any special attack investment.
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 105-124 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 111-132 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 114-135 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 154-183 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kyogre-Primal Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Gengar is, at best, 3HKO'd by the entire meta except by extremely passive walls like Registeel and Mega Audino.
-Moongeist Beam is redundant, even if the opponent can't be poisoned you're much better off using Earth Power, Blue Flare/Searing Shot, Secret Sword, or really any move that hits steel types super effectively since the only good poison type is Gengar which is, as we already established, very frail.
-Gengar should always run Timid nature, if it isn't Timid then it is probably a bad set that isn't playing to Gengar's strengths.
Funny enough, these are all sets/Pokemon I have a really good share of experience with. Like, I've specifically gone out of my way for Fridge Kyu-B and Merciless Gengar and Manectric in general. So, my thoughts...
Kyu-B: Fakespeed is pretty much the bread and butter of most Kyurem-Black sets. If you're wanting a non-priority Ice-STAB, Frustration is your best bet since it has good base power and you're Imposter-resistant over half the time. Generally though, you'll want Band Kyu-B if you're not running Fake Out and you want to run 4 -attacks, otherwise it's usually Fridge Priority / Second Priority or Ice-STAB / Coverage / Set-up or disruption or defensive move
Typical set goes something like...
Kyurem Black @ Icicle Plate / Electrium-Z / Groundium-Z / Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Refrigerate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out / Extre,me Speed
- Extreme Speed / Frustration
- Bolt Strike / Precipice Blades / Boomburst / V-Create
- Taunt / Shell Smash / Swords Dance / U-Turn / King's Shield / etc.
Slashed to hell, but it mostly plays the same regardless. There's also an anti-Imposter Fridge set that kinda doesn't pull much weight these days and a Skill Link set that kinda flounders on ladder right now because people are blind to bluffing Fridge Fake Speed currently, but can share if you're curious. I also was writing the Kyu-B analyses before that whole thing got shut down, so can also go way, way more into detail about Kyu-B's strengths and weaknesses and various options too.
Manectric: No Guard is fun and all, but Galvanize is Manectric's best set and the only one its not really outclassed at. Competes with Xurkitree in a power vs. speed competition. Give Xurk a Scarf or Manectric Specs and they basically turn into the same Pokemon. I'd suggest a set something like...
Manectric-Mega @ Icium Z
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Encore
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch
Zice Beam OHKO's pretty much all but AV Regen Zygarde and KOs most Giratina after a regular Ice Beam. I recommend not firing Zice Beam immediately in case your opponent cheekily double switches to scout for such tricks, lest you Zice Beam their Registeel or something. Oddly, Primaldon hard checks Manectric these days since, pre-ban, it could go for a OHKO with Steam Eruption whereas in the past it was only occasionally Water-immune.
I've done significant experimentation with Manectric since X/Y, so again, I can go onto a lot of detail on this Pokemon if desired.
Gengar: The set's mostly fine. I'd personally move Toxic off of it and put Toxic Spikes somewhere on your team once or twice. The set I used on my own Poison-based team was...
Gengar-Mega @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock
- Hex
- Secret Sword
- Defog
Ghost-Z was mostly so Gengar could do some damage on something if it was in a situation where it needed to land a hit but couldn't get Poison going or to take down a Solgaleo on moment's notice (mind the likely Assault Vest). It also one-shots opposing Normalize Gengar who think they're safe because you don't have Spooky Judgement. Secret Sword... really, kind of a deadish slot since it doesn't do much if T-Tar or non-Imposter Chansey isn't on the opposing team. Audino and Yveltal aren't weak, Sableye is immune, and Steel-types can't get Poisoned and just shrug the damage off. Defog's just a filler move and can be replaced with pretty much whatever, but it's here because Gengar cleans up any bounced T.Spikes in the process and I couldn't hit the move on my Defog or Poison Healer. I don't run Moongeist because this combo is Imposter-resistant, provided Imposter is Poisoned. You could swap Hex for Spooky Judgement for more consistency and retain anti-Imposterness, but your Merciless crits will be a little lower.
Unlike the other two Pokemon, I wouldn't call myself a Gengar expert, so don't ask me for tons of Gengar-related details. Other than this set, I'm still mostly stuck in the days of Moldy Gengar and Normalize Perish/Curse Trapping. If you wanna know more about this specific set though, that I can do.
Kyu-B: Fakespeed is pretty much the bread and butter of most Kyurem-Black sets. If you're wanting a non-priority Ice-STAB, Frustration is your best bet since it has good base power and you're Imposter-resistant over half the time. Generally though, you'll want Band Kyu-B if you're not running Fake Out and you want to run 4 -attacks, otherwise it's usually Fridge Priority / Second Priority or Ice-STAB / Coverage / Set-up or disruption or defensive move
Typical set goes something like...
Kyurem Black @ Icicle Plate / Electrium-Z / Groundium-Z / Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Refrigerate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out / Extre,me Speed
- Extreme Speed / Frustration
- Bolt Strike / Precipice Blades / Boomburst / V-Create
- Taunt / Shell Smash / Swords Dance / U-Turn / King's Shield / etc.
Slashed to hell, but it mostly plays the same regardless. There's also an anti-Imposter Fridge set that kinda doesn't pull much weight these days and a Skill Link set that kinda flounders on ladder right now because people are blind to bluffing Fridge Fake Speed currently, but can share if you're curious. I also was writing the Kyu-B analyses before that whole thing got shut down, so can also go way, way more into detail about Kyu-B's strengths and weaknesses and various options too.
Manectric: No Guard is fun and all, but Galvanize is Manectric's best set and the only one its not really outclassed at. Competes with Xurkitree in a power vs. speed competition. Give Xurk a Scarf or Manectric Specs and they basically turn into the same Pokemon. I'd suggest a set something like...
Manectric-Mega @ Icium Z
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Encore
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch
Zice Beam OHKO's pretty much all but AV Regen Zygarde and KOs most Giratina after a regular Ice Beam. I recommend not firing Zice Beam immediately in case your opponent cheekily double switches to scout for such tricks, lest you Zice Beam their Registeel or something. Oddly, Primaldon hard checks Manectric these days since, pre-ban, it could go for a OHKO with Steam Eruption whereas in the past it was only occasionally Water-immune.
I've done significant experimentation with Manectric since X/Y, so again, I can go onto a lot of detail on this Pokemon if desired.
Gengar: The set's mostly fine. I'd personally move Toxic off of it and put Toxic Spikes somewhere on your team once or twice. The set I used on my own Poison-based team was...
Gengar-Mega @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock
- Hex
- Secret Sword
- Defog
Ghost-Z was mostly so Gengar could do some damage on something if it was in a situation where it needed to land a hit but couldn't get Poison going or to take down a Solgaleo on moment's notice (mind the likely Assault Vest). It also one-shots opposing Normalize Gengar who think they're safe because you don't have Spooky Judgement. Secret Sword... really, kind of a deadish slot since it doesn't do much if T-Tar or non-Imposter Chansey isn't on the opposing team. Audino and Yveltal aren't weak, Sableye is immune, and Steel-types can't get Poisoned and just shrug the damage off. Defog's just a filler move and can be replaced with pretty much whatever, but it's here because Gengar cleans up any bounced T.Spikes in the process and I couldn't hit the move on my Defog or Poison Healer. I don't run Moongeist because this combo is Imposter-resistant, provided Imposter is Poisoned. You could swap Hex for Spooky Judgement for more consistency and retain anti-Imposterness, but your Merciless crits will be a little lower.
Unlike the other two Pokemon, I wouldn't call myself a Gengar expert, so don't ask me for tons of Gengar-related details. Other than this set, I'm still mostly stuck in the days of Moldy Gengar and Normalize Perish/Curse Trapping. If you wanna know more about this specific set though, that I can do.
metagame discussion time
does anyone else think giratina is a bad hazard remover? poison heal sets can lose more than half of their health from core just to remove hazards. other sets (fc) still leave the field at 60-70% after defogging, and they're susceptible to tspikes too. ff steels, audino, etc are better in my opinion.
speaking of giratina, i'm really liking its regen vest set right now. at first i had my doubts because it doesn't really hard wall much (specs ray and mmy can still break through), but it's so easy to switch in on offensive and defensive pokemon alike to scout their sets. kinda like toxapex in ou. the set is u turn/core/spectral/beak blast or poison fang.
red orb don is honestly dumb to face with stall teams. you can't burn it and v create does a hideous amount of damage to everything. it seems kinda unreliable to use though because it wants too many moves (shell smash, draco or fleur, synthesis, thousand arrows for ff steels, solar blade).
been liking setup sweepers with regenerator. i've used 2 in tours, tail glow lo regen mmy (vs flint in auth v non auth, it lost because imposter pressured it too much) and smash/spikes/stabs dragonium z zekrom in bh open (best set in the game oml). it seems kind of similar to poison heal overall.
fur coat chansey is a really good mon right now in terms of how much it walls. in retrospect though it was nowhere near as splashable as i thought and many of my teams got worse with it. despite its almost unlimited walling capabilities, it provides few of the utilities balance teams need so much and u turn really isn't that good on it.
magic bouncers are really valuable right now imo. even though shed is basically unusable in mmx meta, bounce is still a good asset for balance and stall to have. magic bounce registeel in particular seems like it would be really good (although i haven't tried it).
what mons have you guys been using?
does anyone else think giratina is a bad hazard remover? poison heal sets can lose more than half of their health from core just to remove hazards. other sets (fc) still leave the field at 60-70% after defogging, and they're susceptible to tspikes too. ff steels, audino, etc are better in my opinion.
speaking of giratina, i'm really liking its regen vest set right now. at first i had my doubts because it doesn't really hard wall much (specs ray and mmy can still break through), but it's so easy to switch in on offensive and defensive pokemon alike to scout their sets. kinda like toxapex in ou. the set is u turn/core/spectral/beak blast or poison fang.
red orb don is honestly dumb to face with stall teams. you can't burn it and v create does a hideous amount of damage to everything. it seems kinda unreliable to use though because it wants too many moves (shell smash, draco or fleur, synthesis, thousand arrows for ff steels, solar blade).
been liking setup sweepers with regenerator. i've used 2 in tours, tail glow lo regen mmy (vs flint in auth v non auth, it lost because imposter pressured it too much) and smash/spikes/stabs dragonium z zekrom in bh open (best set in the game oml). it seems kind of similar to poison heal overall.
fur coat chansey is a really good mon right now in terms of how much it walls. in retrospect though it was nowhere near as splashable as i thought and many of my teams got worse with it. despite its almost unlimited walling capabilities, it provides few of the utilities balance teams need so much and u turn really isn't that good on it.
magic bouncers are really valuable right now imo. even though shed is basically unusable in mmx meta, bounce is still a good asset for balance and stall to have. magic bounce registeel in particular seems like it would be really good (although i haven't tried it).
what mons have you guys been using?
For Magic Bouncers and hazard control in the suspect ladder I used Magic Bounce Celesteela with defog. Being immune to spikes and tspikes while not being weak to rocks, as well as not being weak to the common utility moves - core enforcer, spectral thief, u-turn - means you can come in to remove hazards fairly safely against most defensive mons as well as it's steel typing helping to check all the usual things: ates, psychics, regigigas. However I have found it is pressured far to easily by the likes of fire coverage ates and the bulk is noticeably lower than registeels which I'm not sure the typing makes up for. The set I ran was as below:
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up
- Entrainment / Core Enforcer
- Defog
It was used to improof a ground coverage spikes diancie as well as doing generic steely things but as I mentioned what it gains in spikes/ground immunity it loses in lacklustre bulk (specs ray gets a clean 2hko without lefties and specsurge mmy has a good chance to 2hko with psystrike after lefties).
Magic Guard Ho-oh is another nice option for a defogger with spikes immunity that can also check (non-head smash) diancie but it doesn't offer anywhere near the role compression a steel type does and needs it's ability to function at all as hazard control, whereas steels have a myriad or possibilities.
Regenvest Yveltal is a very nice rapid spin user, threatening pesky ghosts with its stab dark moves, but between spectral, u-turn, revelation dance, knock off, core enforcer, poison fang, beak blast etc it really suffers from 4mss and it also segues nicely into the next paragraph:
Regenvest Giratina is another mon I used in the same team. In my experience it checks a lot of things but counters few, meaning you can switch in to things that you are wary of to scout, sponge hits and pivot around, especially choice locked things that might hurt if you go straight to the wrong wall. However due to its weakness to spectral, core and diancie I found it less useful than regenvest pogre except for the fact that it helps against shedinja. Also it doesn't even beat standard gigas why would you even run this lol.
Pdon is amazingly threatening even from beyond the grave: the illusion set Morogrim mentioned in the BH Central is really threatening and it can even break through things like prankster tina if played well.
I have experimented a little with Regen LO Mega Chomp since it threatens many common defensive mons and has reasonable bulk to live neutral hits but, alas, it was to no avail. Maybe it needed better team synergy to thrive.
Here's a quick breakdown of some of the things I've been enjoying and hating on the ladder:
Mega Diancie with entry hazards. This thing forces switches really well so it can reliably get up a spike or a toxic spike (if you're running merciless offense), and that still leaves room for a coverage move. I usually go for Precipice Blades/Boomburst/Espeed/Spike since FF steels and pdon are everywhere, and I hate them. It's really hard to play against this set as well, because even Imposter takes 25-30% from Boomburst or Blades and that's a sizeable chunk, and it's really easy to not allow the imposter to recover. You can improof it easily with a defensive soundproofer like Groudon with spin, which also has the utility of being able to trap an imposter with Twaves, so you never have to deal with it again. That groudon set also lets you spin away your own spikes against magic bounce steels (except celesteela).
MMX: This boy is still as hard to deal with as ever; I don't really feel like the Psysurge ban hurt it one bit. You don't even need to run Choice Band to break the walls you are trying to break, like you can still 2hKO fur coat giratina with Photon from full with a rock or spike up if you run Adapt. Or you can run Regen-Life Orb and just chip things down. It has enough special offense to go mixed as well. In short it's still a gamble how you handle it. It's easy to wear down things like Cres and Sableye-mega that would check it as well. In short I think this mon deserves that S-rank distinction still. The only good thing, after like 15% chip Diancie Espeed can kill it without +atk nature. If it's full, that doesn't kill though. Rayquaza Oblivion Wing or espeed kills from full unless it's Focus Sash; if it is indeed Sash, Rayquaza is most likely a goner though. If it's APS then you might as well forfeit right now, unless you run Prankster Haze, and unless that Prankster Hazer is Aegislash or Crescelia, you will lose another mon just bringing it down. Hmm, maybe Unaware Sableye-Mega can takea single CC and Spectral Thief it but no one can actually afford to run that because its bulk is so bad. I've also been trying ...
Darmanatan-zen: This has an interesting niche as a counter to Refrigerate and Pixilate users that run Fire coverage that doesn't need to use the ability slot to do it. That leaves it room to run something else; my mon runs Magic Bounce with Magma Storm/U-Turn/Recover/King's Shield. The Magma Storm can probably be replaced, but my team kind of needs it for Shed so maybe I should replace it with Infestation for the higher accuracy, and it, of course, cannot switch in. King's Shield is useful to force out overenthusiastic Mewtwo-Mega-X users who click Close Combat; a pity it doesn't punish Photon as well, but at least it's resisted I suppose. You need to keep it at like 70% in order to check Pixilate Diancie-Mega or Fridge Kyurem-B, and use King's Shield to scout for Ground coverage because they sometimes run that. Oh by the way, they can't set entry hazards against you because of bounce, so that's another cool bonus. Unfortunately it does not have much other defensive utility besides checking those specific things, but it does so better than like anything else while allowing you to Magic Bounce as well. Be careful of Core Enforcer, as Grisius Orb Giratina or offensive Dialga can easily chop off 40%.
Belly Drum sweepers: Steel types are running Belly Drum a lot more these days, especially psychic-typed ones like Metagross-mega or Solgaleo. They are just fast enough to outspeed the meta after unburden, and get STAB on Sunsteel. Photon as well for the Psychic-type ones, meaning that Prankster Haze, Focus Sash or Unaware Gyarados-mega are the only ways to stop them once they've set it up. They are very resistant to priority moves, most of them not even dying to Zekrom Fakespeed from 75% which is like the strongest priority that they take neutral from. Well, there's Sucker Punch, but who runs that? There is also superfast Scarfers like Gengar-Mega with Adapt which can outspeed Solgaleo and revenge it. Still those are very limited ways to kill it. To be fair, reliably using these sweepers requires a good amount of scouting and then a concentrated effort to lure in and remove those checks.
Groudon-Primal: A really cool mon to use these days. I feel like with the huge prevalence of Giratina the successful Groudon-Primals are going for a sweeping role as compared to a bulky breaker one, since they can't break through Giratina with STAB moves--Fur Coat or not--without almost dying to do it. The most formidable Groudon-P's run Shell Smash, Ice Beam, and their STAB moves, easily disposing of their standard checks in a single smash. Its fantastic bulk lets it survive a single priority hit easily as well. Who needs Solar Blade or Fleur Cannon when you can just own the same stuff with Ice Beam? Only Unaware Kyogre and a few other niche options can handle the set, and again, that is easy to weaken with things like Toxic and Stealth Rock.
Dialga: Dialga has risen in popularity due to its unique set of resistances. Though the Dragon typing makes it lose some of the resistances Steel is famed for in this meta such as Dragon and Fairy, it stands to gain a lot more since it only is neutral to Fire and resists Water. AV sets are very hard to stop, especially once you know which of the enemy pokemon are running Knock Off, and are probably the most reliable spinners for defensive teams. If they run Revelation Dance they can even take on Normalize Mega Gengar and Diancie-Mega which would otherwise force them out, though other moves are probably better to run, and Core Enforcer 2hKOS all but the most specially defensive or AV-wearing Giratina. Fur Coat is also an impressive set, able to survive a single Choice Band Adaptability-boosted MMX Close Combat (86% I believe) with full defensive EVs. On the other hand offensive sets can reek a lot of havoc with Doom Desire. My favorite set for this is Tail Glow/Doom Desire/Shore Up/Roar with Magic Bounce with an Unaware Chansey or Kyogre-P to Imposterproof it. It's a great breaker for the early game, especially if you are lucky with the Dragon Tail and lure something out that dies to the Doom Desire. Steelworker and Adaptability are very powerful sets, but other mons run both abilities better because Dialga needs a defensive ability in order to stay in long enough to ensure that its boosted Doom Desire can hit. Z crystals are great to equip to this mon, in order to surprise and KO fairy-type Poison Healers like Xerneas.
MMY: The Psysurge ban has arguably made MMY harder to deal with. Contrary, Magic Guard and Specs Adapt sets are all being used frequently these days, and it's impossible to check them all. Other less used sets such as Focus Energy and No Guard only make this tougher. Specially-biased mixed tanks such as AV Dialga, AV Solgaleo, and AV Giratina are usually good enough to scout it. Interestingly enough, Regen-scarf Genesect has become a shakier check in this meta because many of them are running Mind Blown on Magic Guard or Overheat on Contrary sets and will click it to predict a Steel switching in. Also, most fakespeed users can almost KO with fakespeed from full, which is a bit of a silver lining, as a single u-turn is enough to get them into range.
Mega Diancie with entry hazards. This thing forces switches really well so it can reliably get up a spike or a toxic spike (if you're running merciless offense), and that still leaves room for a coverage move. I usually go for Precipice Blades/Boomburst/Espeed/Spike since FF steels and pdon are everywhere, and I hate them. It's really hard to play against this set as well, because even Imposter takes 25-30% from Boomburst or Blades and that's a sizeable chunk, and it's really easy to not allow the imposter to recover. You can improof it easily with a defensive soundproofer like Groudon with spin, which also has the utility of being able to trap an imposter with Twaves, so you never have to deal with it again. That groudon set also lets you spin away your own spikes against magic bounce steels (except celesteela).
MMX: This boy is still as hard to deal with as ever; I don't really feel like the Psysurge ban hurt it one bit. You don't even need to run Choice Band to break the walls you are trying to break, like you can still 2hKO fur coat giratina with Photon from full with a rock or spike up if you run Adapt. Or you can run Regen-Life Orb and just chip things down. It has enough special offense to go mixed as well. In short it's still a gamble how you handle it. It's easy to wear down things like Cres and Sableye-mega that would check it as well. In short I think this mon deserves that S-rank distinction still. The only good thing, after like 15% chip Diancie Espeed can kill it without +atk nature. If it's full, that doesn't kill though. Rayquaza Oblivion Wing or espeed kills from full unless it's Focus Sash; if it is indeed Sash, Rayquaza is most likely a goner though. If it's APS then you might as well forfeit right now, unless you run Prankster Haze, and unless that Prankster Hazer is Aegislash or Crescelia, you will lose another mon just bringing it down. Hmm, maybe Unaware Sableye-Mega can takea single CC and Spectral Thief it but no one can actually afford to run that because its bulk is so bad. I've also been trying ...
Darmanatan-zen: This has an interesting niche as a counter to Refrigerate and Pixilate users that run Fire coverage that doesn't need to use the ability slot to do it. That leaves it room to run something else; my mon runs Magic Bounce with Magma Storm/U-Turn/Recover/King's Shield. The Magma Storm can probably be replaced, but my team kind of needs it for Shed so maybe I should replace it with Infestation for the higher accuracy, and it, of course, cannot switch in. King's Shield is useful to force out overenthusiastic Mewtwo-Mega-X users who click Close Combat; a pity it doesn't punish Photon as well, but at least it's resisted I suppose. You need to keep it at like 70% in order to check Pixilate Diancie-Mega or Fridge Kyurem-B, and use King's Shield to scout for Ground coverage because they sometimes run that. Oh by the way, they can't set entry hazards against you because of bounce, so that's another cool bonus. Unfortunately it does not have much other defensive utility besides checking those specific things, but it does so better than like anything else while allowing you to Magic Bounce as well. Be careful of Core Enforcer, as Grisius Orb Giratina or offensive Dialga can easily chop off 40%.
Belly Drum sweepers: Steel types are running Belly Drum a lot more these days, especially psychic-typed ones like Metagross-mega or Solgaleo. They are just fast enough to outspeed the meta after unburden, and get STAB on Sunsteel. Photon as well for the Psychic-type ones, meaning that Prankster Haze, Focus Sash or Unaware Gyarados-mega are the only ways to stop them once they've set it up. They are very resistant to priority moves, most of them not even dying to Zekrom Fakespeed from 75% which is like the strongest priority that they take neutral from. Well, there's Sucker Punch, but who runs that? There is also superfast Scarfers like Gengar-Mega with Adapt which can outspeed Solgaleo and revenge it. Still those are very limited ways to kill it. To be fair, reliably using these sweepers requires a good amount of scouting and then a concentrated effort to lure in and remove those checks.
Groudon-Primal: A really cool mon to use these days. I feel like with the huge prevalence of Giratina the successful Groudon-Primals are going for a sweeping role as compared to a bulky breaker one, since they can't break through Giratina with STAB moves--Fur Coat or not--without almost dying to do it. The most formidable Groudon-P's run Shell Smash, Ice Beam, and their STAB moves, easily disposing of their standard checks in a single smash. Its fantastic bulk lets it survive a single priority hit easily as well. Who needs Solar Blade or Fleur Cannon when you can just own the same stuff with Ice Beam? Only Unaware Kyogre and a few other niche options can handle the set, and again, that is easy to weaken with things like Toxic and Stealth Rock.
Dialga: Dialga has risen in popularity due to its unique set of resistances. Though the Dragon typing makes it lose some of the resistances Steel is famed for in this meta such as Dragon and Fairy, it stands to gain a lot more since it only is neutral to Fire and resists Water. AV sets are very hard to stop, especially once you know which of the enemy pokemon are running Knock Off, and are probably the most reliable spinners for defensive teams. If they run Revelation Dance they can even take on Normalize Mega Gengar and Diancie-Mega which would otherwise force them out, though other moves are probably better to run, and Core Enforcer 2hKOS all but the most specially defensive or AV-wearing Giratina. Fur Coat is also an impressive set, able to survive a single Choice Band Adaptability-boosted MMX Close Combat (86% I believe) with full defensive EVs. On the other hand offensive sets can reek a lot of havoc with Doom Desire. My favorite set for this is Tail Glow/Doom Desire/Shore Up/Roar with Magic Bounce with an Unaware Chansey or Kyogre-P to Imposterproof it. It's a great breaker for the early game, especially if you are lucky with the Dragon Tail and lure something out that dies to the Doom Desire. Steelworker and Adaptability are very powerful sets, but other mons run both abilities better because Dialga needs a defensive ability in order to stay in long enough to ensure that its boosted Doom Desire can hit. Z crystals are great to equip to this mon, in order to surprise and KO fairy-type Poison Healers like Xerneas.
MMY: The Psysurge ban has arguably made MMY harder to deal with. Contrary, Magic Guard and Specs Adapt sets are all being used frequently these days, and it's impossible to check them all. Other less used sets such as Focus Energy and No Guard only make this tougher. Specially-biased mixed tanks such as AV Dialga, AV Solgaleo, and AV Giratina are usually good enough to scout it. Interestingly enough, Regen-scarf Genesect has become a shakier check in this meta because many of them are running Mind Blown on Magic Guard or Overheat on Contrary sets and will click it to predict a Steel switching in. Also, most fakespeed users can almost KO with fakespeed from full, which is a bit of a silver lining, as a single u-turn is enough to get them into range.
Ok tk i will take notes ^^, manectric is played with no guard just for zap cannon honestly, 'cause it's fun so i will continue to play it. for the two other sets i thought they were good but you are probably true, i will edit'em.
Recently I came up with a weird gimmick after dealing with one too many sturdy shed teams, since the normal answer to sturdy shed is to switch into Giratina/Aegislash. So I thought about potentially using scrappy or pixilate shedninja. I'm pretty bad at teambuilding so tips for improofing and improvement is highly encouraged! Too gimmicky or viable? Of course the secrets out now.
I started off with basic sturdy shed set, then added in the pixilate Shed. Of course, I needed to keep hazards off the field, so I used a stall/hazards core of Regi, Audino and Gira. After playtesting I found that this team was weak to normalize gengar so I added Mega Gyrados with M-Gar to trap it.
Oberyn (Shedinja) @ Protective Pads/Saftey goggles
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- Spiky Shield
Oberyn (Shedinja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pixilate /Scrappy?
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Shard
- Recycle
The Knight (Registeel) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Poison Fang
- Core Enforcer
- Rapid Spin
The Opening Act (Giratina) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Poison Fang
- Core Enforcer
- Shore Up
Titania (Audino-Mega) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heal Bell
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Core Enforcer
Transformation (Gyarados-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn
Oberyn (Shedinja) @ Protective Pads/Saftey goggles
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- Spiky Shield
Oberyn (Shedinja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pixilate /Scrappy?
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Shard
- Recycle
The Knight (Registeel) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Poison Fang
- Core Enforcer
- Rapid Spin
The Opening Act (Giratina) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Poison Fang
- Core Enforcer
- Shore Up
Titania (Audino-Mega) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heal Bell
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Core Enforcer
Transformation (Gyarados-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn
Pixilate is better because you can kill things like PH tyranitar, giratina and zygarde complete after endeavor whereas with scrappy you cannot.
On the sturdy shedinja you should probably run spectral thief or pursuit rather than knock off since the former does a lot more to giratina and aegislash and the latter lets you trap regen pokemon at 1hp so they cant just pp stall you by switching. Spiky shield maybe can also be replaced with u-turn but it is good for scouting for sungeist geyser.
Imposter is very useful on shedinja teams to scout for what will kill shedinja but I can see with duel shedi you're tight for space.
Your team loses to PH xerneas if they have magma storm or lava plume so maybe consider replacing a move on audino (knock off would be my first choice) with spectral thief which gives you a soft check (you can wall but you don't threaten back). Having a way to remove abilities that isn't Core Enforcer somewhere is nice though.
Having hazards on your magic bounce mon looks like it could land you in trouble with imposter if they switch in, and if they are burned from aud they cant be forced out with poison but hazards don't seem essential except against other shed so you can probably live with this but just be careful when you click stealth rocks.
Adapt mega gengar seems to be a big threat since it can come in on registeel to spinblock and threatens all of your team but it is fairly uncommon and can be played around with pursuit if you are careful.
You're weak to mmx with photon geyser but maybe in a day or two psychic surge will be banned and it wont be so big an issue.
Edit to address the post below: Imo there is no need to remove sunsteel since giratina is already a good improof for it since it takes little from knock off thanks to its orb and can fish for poison.
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Yeah I can see that, should I get rid of sunsteel strike on gyra so imposter chansey can't kill my sheds? Any other team suggestions?
Thanks for the input, spectral thief against xern seems good, I've dealt with it a bit before and try to knock off the orb when they switch in but that's unreliable. I added gyra specifically to counter M-Gar and act as a pursuit trapper, the general idea for the team is to weaken them with shed and surprise shed then hazard stack and status to secure kills after endeavour. Gastro acid seems like a good choice for an ability remover so I'll replace that on my mons.
Any tips on dealing with M-Gar? I probably want to use imposter but can't think of replacing M-Gyra.
Also I'm slightly hesitant to take off knock off as knock off + protective pads is meant to get rid of rocky helmets in order to keep pixiShed safe. But it could work just forces me to a bit more cautious. Though ice shard is already no contact.
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Thought you guys might like this picture I made after being in 4 games of low-ladder BH
I like that
hey thought we can't post 1 line shitposts
Now onto my post I wanna talk about kartana
Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Bullet Punch
- V-create
- Power Whip
This set can really rip through stall and only can be kinda be checked by ff steels
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 139-165 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 177-210 (37 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
These mons are resisted too! Now lets look at some mons that don't resist steel..
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 330-388 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 360-424 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The infamous fur coat chansey
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 751-883 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now we know how strong and good kartana is but it has flaws..for one its really slow and can't outspeed threats which sucks.
Also Kart has other sets like tinted,Tc,unburdun belly drum, and more that I prolly don't know
So what are your thoughts on kartana?
also Bp on kart is good to get damage on mons like gengar , ray and dianice bc u don't outspeed them
[OVERVIEW]
At the first glance, Groudons seem to be able to function as a decent check to -ate users with Soundproof, while being able to utilize Ground typing to maintain offensive presence against Steel-types with its STAB moves while also giving it an option to employ STAB Thousand Waves to punish Steel-types or Imposter. However, Groudon is mostly eclipsed by Zygarde-C as a defensive wall. While Zygarde-C has x4 weakness to Ice-type attacks, it boasts significantly better bulk and lower Speed tier to have upper hand against other walls like Giratina. Thus, Groudon is mostly outclassed by Zygarde-C as a wall and can only justify the use when more offensive Ground-type Pokémon is desired.
Primal Groudon, while it can only be accessed by Primal Reversion via Groudon holding Red Orb, still remains as one of the formidable threats in the tier. Ground- and Fire-type offensively hits almost the entirety of the metagame neutrally and thus it can afford to use coverage moves, support moves, or status moves without much opportunity risk. Excellent offensive stats, along with Desolate Land and mentioned advantage of dual STAB, makes Primal Groudon hard to defensively handle even when it is running defensive sets. Primal Groudon also excels defensively, offensively checking Mega Diancie, Kartana, and Primal Kyogre. Its very high Defense stat lets it blanket check majority of the physical attackers in the tier. Although it has rather mediocre Special Defense and Speed stats, Primal Groudon's versatility and the utility it provides the team with outshines such downsides.
[SET]
name: Offensive Soundpoof
move 1: Thousand Waves
move 2: Parting Shot
move 3: Recover
move 4: Stealth Rock / Nuzzle / Ice Hammer
item: Groundium Z / Rocky Helmet / Safety Goggles
ability: Soundproof
nature: Relaxed / Impish
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Thousand Waves is a STAB move that does decent damage to neutral targets thanks to Groudon's good Attack stat. It is also a primary tool it uses to threaten or punish Steel-types. Notably, it scores OHKO on Mega Diancie after Stealth Rock damage, which Zygarde-C cannot do. Parting Shot allows Groudon to pivot into a teammate on a forced or predicted switch while weakening a foe. Although this can be bounced back against Magic Bounce users, it is superior choice over U-turn due to it preventing Imposter from switching due to them copying Soundproof. Recover allows Groudon to stay healthy and consistently check threats like -ate users. The last moveslot is flexible depending on what Grodon's teammates need. Stealth Rock wears down foes over the match and allows Groudon to pressure Flying-types such as Mega Rayquaza, which it struggles against. Nuzzle allows Groudon to harshly punish foes that attempt to offensively force it out, such as Mega Rayquaza and Mega Sceptile, by hindering their Speed tier. Ice Hammer is a niche option that has a chance to OHKO Mega Rayquaza.
Set Details
========
The goal of this set is to compress a role as a check to -ate types and an offensive trapper. Speed stat is minimized for Groudon to pivot as slow as possible and retain momentum for its team, although investing on Speed to outspeed the likes of Solgaleo is a considerable option. Groudium Z allows Groudon to score clean OHKO on Registeel, Solgaleo, and Aegislash while taking out Calm Mega Audino with said Z-move after Thousand Waves and some prior damage. Rocky Helmet punishes -ate users that uses Fake Out or Extreme Speed by wearing them down, as well as slow pivots that use U-turn on Groudon. Safety Goggles prevent Groudon from getting neutralized by Spore.
Usage Tips
========
Although Groudon can handle -ate users, it should scout common threats such as Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie beforehand, as their special attacks can do massive damage or even KO Groudon. Once one can confirm aforementioned threats are -ate users, Groudon can be switched into them to take physical attacks or powerful Boombursts. Against Aerilate Mega Rayquaza, especially if it is holding Sky Plate, Extreme Speed still does heavy damage, and therefore Groudon's health should be managed especially if it is counted on as the only answer. Groudon can aggressively switch into Steel-types and threaten them out while setting Stealth Rock, spreading paralysis with Nuzzle, or gain momentum with Parting Shot.
Team Options
========
Groudon is well paired with -ate users or powerful wallbreakers that dislike Steel-types such as Kartana or Kyurem-W, as they appreciate removal of problematic Steel-types such as Solgaleo and Registeel and can opt for coverage moves to hit other threats that Groudon cannot handle. They also appreciate Stealth Rock support, and Groudon's ability to lure and remove Imposter Chansey, one of the greatest checks to -ate users. Defensively, acquiring Steel-types is advised as Groudon fails to stand a chance against threats like Triage Mega Rayquaza, Magic Guard Mega Diancie, and most variants of Mega Mewtwo Y. Registeel, Solgaleo, and Aegislash are all viable options to handle these threats using Prankster, Regenerator, or Flash Fire. Solgaleo is a good blanket check to Poison Heal attackers, such as Primal Kyogre and Xerneas, which uses Groudon as a setup fodder once Z-move has been used. Aegislash is especially useful since it blocks Rapid Spin and keeps Stealth Rock on the field. Specially defensive partners, such as Primal Kyogre can protect Groudon from strong special attacks.
[SET]
name: Defensive Red Orb
move 1: Thousand Waves / Thousand Arrows
move 2: Sacred Fire / V-create
move 3: U-turn / Stealth Rock
move 4: Stealth Rock / Morning Sun / Strength Sap
item: Red Orb
ability: Grassy Surge / Electric Surge / Trace / Download
nature: Careful / Sassy
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Thousand Waves can be used to trap foes and take away momentum or KO them depending on the foe, while Thousand Arrows hits the Flying-types that would otherwise may try to switch into Primal Groudon and prevents Flash Fire Celesteela from becoming a nuisance to deal with. Sacred Fire trades power with an ability to spread burn, making checks like Giratina and Zygarde-C easier to wear down. V-create, factoring STAB, harsh sunlight, and Primal Groudon's 180 Attack stat, does lethal damage to the majority of the tier and features OHKO's on most neutral offensive foes. U-turn grabs momentum as Primal Groudon pivots out, and it is especially useful due to its ability to force switches. Stealth Rock can also be used to support Primal Groudon's team and this benefits from the number of forced switches Primal Groudon causes as well. Morning Sun heals Primal Groudon and lets it check threats like Pixilate Mega Diancie and Primal Kyogre with consistency, although other recovery moves can be used for more PP at a cost of significant decrease on healing amount. Strength Sap should only be used with Thousand Waves, as this allows Primal Groudon to gradually weaken its Imposter, PP stall it, and cause it to faint. If Primal Groudon already has a Stealth Rock user, it can opt for Spikes or other coverage moves. If used with Electric Surge, Bolt Strike can be used to hit Primal Kyogre, but the move itself doesn't hit many threats outsides that and is hard to justify to fit. Ice Beam OHKOs Mega Rayquaza after Stealth Rock damage and ensures Primal Groudon is not a fodder for Zygarde-C, which would especially prove troublesome if it has Magic Bounce.
Set Details
========
Defensive Primal Groudon compresses a role of Stealth Rock user and an offensive powerhouse. Speed stat can be minimized to pivot more efficiently, but this worsens Primal Groudon's ability to deal with Primal Kyogre and Dialga. Red Orb is required for Primal Reversion. Groudon can opt to use one of many abilities that activates temporarily before it goes through Primal Reversion and gains Desolate Land. Grassy Surge provides Primal Groudon with recovery, but this also heals foes. Electric Surge provides Primal Groudon and its teammates with temporary immunity to sleep. In a similar vein, Misty Surge can be used if none of Primal Groudon's teammates appreciate the boosted base power of Electric moves, and it weakens Core Enforcer. Trace directly reveals a foe's ability before Primal Reversion, and this can be effective if Primal Groudon is used as a lead. Download, depending on the foe, can give it +1 Attack, but the boost is only temporary.
Usage Tips
========
If Stealth Rock is opted for, Primal Groudon can take advantage of its offensive presence and an ability to force switches to set said hazard early in the game. That said, as much Primal Groudon forces switches and draws in physically defensive foes like Giratina and Zygarde-C, carefully scouting foes' switch-in to Primal Groudon and pivoting with U-turn is a promising idea. V-create, while it is immensely powerful, it has low PP and is walled relatively easily by Giratina and Zygarde-C and leaves Primal Groudon susceptible to attacks, so it should be used with caution. Sacred Fire should be used carefully in the same vein, but it can be used early many times if spreading burn is desired. Primal Groudon's another efficient check is Imposter Chansey which can even switch into Ground-type moves when healthy. While Primal Groudon can trap and defeat its own Imposter one on one if using Thousand Waves and Strength Sap, it will otherwise struggle against it and even give it a free turn to recover, set hazards, or take away momentum. Defensively, Primal Groudon can be liberally switched into Mega Diancie, Kartana, and Primal Kyogre. Primal Groudon also excels at handling Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados by absorbing Knock Off. Although Primal Groudon is defensively great, do not be too reckless with it, as it is quite specially frail even with boosting nature and is susceptible to residual damage and Spore due to its inability to choose other items over Red Orb.
Team Options
========
Primal Groudon can be paired with Pokémon that appreciate the ability to immensely threaten Steel-types, check Mega Diancie and Primal Kyogre, and set hazards or trap and eliminate Imposter Chansey. Dialga is an excellent partner that can handle Mega Rayquaza and threaten Dragon-types that check Primal Groudon. Variants with Regenerator and Assault Vest can safely bring in Primal Groudon with U-turn and let it preserve its PP for recovery moves and keep itself healthy to avoid 2HKO from powerful attacks such as Pixilate Mega Diancie's Boomburst and Kartana's Sunsteel Strike. Primal Groudon can take advantage of Steel-types that Dialga naturally draws in. Pixilate Mega Diancie vastly appreciates Primal Groudon's ability to cover Steel-types and set entry hazards so that it can use other moves, such as Shell Smash and King's Shield that it could previously not opt for. Primal Groudon imposterproofs Mega Diancie and can potentially remove Imposter so that foes will have a nightmare dealing Mega Diancie later in the match if their only answer to it was Imposter Chansey. Kartana is another offensive powerhouse that appreciates Primal Groudon's ability to take advantage of Steel-types and Primal Groudon itself can imposterproof Kartana. Kartana in return can break through Giratina and potentially cripple a wall by passing on its Choice Band to a wall using Switcheroo. Giratina can block Rapid Spin and imposterproof Primal Groudon, while Primal Groudon threatens out majority of the Magic Bounce users in the tier and checks Fairy-types. Mega Gyarados can handle Refrigerate users like Kyurem-W while hindering walls with Knock Off.
[SET]
name: Offensive Red Orb
move 1: Shell Smash / Shift Gear
move 2: Thousand Arrows / Bonemerang / Precipice Blades
move 3: Sacred Fire
move 4: Fleur Cannon / Morning Sun
item: Red Orb
ability: Illusion / Download
nature: Naughty / Rash / Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
This variant of Primal Groudon boosts its already high offensive stats to the level where it can OHKO or 2HKO majority of the tier. Shell Smash instantly boosts Primal Groudon to nigh unwallable levels and lets it OHKO most offensive threats after Stealth Rock damage. Shift Gear fixes Primal Groudon's Speed by letting it outspeed the entirety of the unboosted metagame while boosting the attack, letting it retain its defensive stats at a cost of lacking immediate power and an ability to use special coverage moves. As a Ground-type STAB move, Thousand Arrows is the most consistent option that handles Flash Fire Celesteela and Mega Rayquaza. Bonemerang is an option to bypass Focus Sash users such as Mega Mewtwo X and Deoxys-A, which would otherwise survive a hit and revenge kill Primal Groudon. Precipice Blades, although it is not consistent, is the only way Primal Groudon can 2HKO Unaware Primal Kyogre and Mega Gyarados on switch and allows Primal Groudon to dish out massive damage even when unboosted. Sacred Fire rounds up Primal Groudon's STAB combination and it OHKOs bulky threats such as Mega Mewtwo X and Regigigas after the boost and lets it spread status in an event where it won't find an opportunity to set up. Fleur Cannon allows Primal Groudon to deal with Giratina, Zygarde-C, and Mega Rayquaaza by OHKOing the former two after some prior damage and the latter without prior damage. Coverage against Mega Rayquaza is especially valuable if Thousand Arrows was not opted for. On the other hand, if Primal Groudon opted for Shift Gear, Morning Sun lets it consistently set up against passive foes while letting it stay healthy and check threats like Mega Diancie and Kartana.
Set Details
========
There are many options for choosing Primal Groudon's nature to meet different benchmarks. Naughty nature or Rash nature can be chosen depending on whether Primal Groudon desires a better chance to OHKO Mega Rayquaza and Primal Kyogre with +2 Thousand Arrows or a better chance to OHKO Giratina and Zygarde-C with +2 Fleur Cannon. If Primal Groudon opted for Shift Gear, Adamant nature is the best option to dish out as much damage as possible while retaining the bulk. Red Orb is mandatory for Primal Reversion. Illusion allows Primal Groudon to set up without fearing Imposter the first time it enters the battle, and thanks to the mechanic of Primal Reversion with Illusion, Imposter cannot copy Primal Groudon even after it has been hit. Download is another option to boost Primal Groudon's immediate power but this set will vulnerable to Imposter as a result. Various abilities like Electric Surge can be run to bluff defensive sets.
Usage Tips
========
Especially if running Shell Smash, Primal Groudon should avoid any form of damage, as it should be as healthy as possible to successfully set up and take as many hits from -ate users as possible. This Primal Groudon is fairly straightforward to use. After it is safely pivoted into the field by its teammate through U-turn, Volt Switch, or Parting Shot, Primal Groudon can take advantage of Steel-types or other foes it forces out and set up to pose a threat to opposing team. If Primal Groudon did not opt for Illusion, refrain from setting up as losing a speed tie against Imposter might be very detrimental for the team, as this set is extremely hard to imposterproof after the boost. Shift Gear sets can play more aggressively thanks to access to recovery moves, but it is not durable as when Primal Groudon opted for Careful or Sassy nature so it should be played with caution. Giratina and Zygarde-C are also very hard to bypass even after boosts, so make sure they are weakened or eliminated before attempting to sweep. In general, scout defensive foes before attempting to sweep, as Spectral Thief from the likes of Mega Audino and Dialga can spoil the attempt to do so.
Team Options
========
Physical attackers like Mega Mewtwo X, Kartana, and Regigigas appreciates Primal Groudon leaving massive holes in the opposing team and potentially luring and removing Giratina and Zygarde-C with boosted Fleur Cannon. Some of them also appreciate Primal Groudon's ability to deal with Steel-types. For Primal Groudon to sweep or dish out as much damage as possible, it will require various support from teammates. Knock Off users like Mega Gyarados or Mega Tyranitar can remove Assault Vest from Dragon-types and prevent them from being able to handle +2 Fleur Cannon later in the match while bringing in Primal Groudon safely via pivoting after drawing in Steel-types. Entry hazards are also appreciated, as it lets Primal Groudon opt for Thousand Arrows over Bonemerang for broader coverage and allows it to have better chance to OHKO defensive walls.
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Regular Groudon has very few other options to choose apart from offensive trapper; defensive sets like Fur Coat is completely outclassed by Zygarde-C, and offensive sets are outclassed by Mega Garchomp due to its Dragon typing that threatens common Ground-type checks such as Giratina and Zygarde-C and higher Attack stat. Primal Groudon, on the other hand, has numerous options to choose as coverage move or support moves. Bolt Strike hits Water-types that switch into V-create, Solar Blade is a niche option to OHKO Mega Swampert, and gimmicky options like Sunsteel Strike or Poison Fang can be used to lure and KO Sturdy Shedinja, but the two latter moves are extremely hard to justify using. Taunt on defensive sets can annoy Giratina and Zygarde-C while preventing the likes of Poison Heal Primal Kyogre and Xerneas from gaining excessive boosts or using sleep-inducing moves, but this too is hard to fit and can backfire against Magic Bounce users. Entrainment is an interesting option to check aforementioned Poison Heal sweepers and scout for Magic Bounce users before setting Stealth Rock. Substitute allows Shell Smash variants of Primal Groudon to take advantage of Prankster users that cannot do much back and often rely on Destiny Bond to shut down rampaging Primal Groudon, but this worsens Primal Groudon's coverage.
Checks and Counters
===================
**Giratina and Zygarde-C**: Both Giratina and Zygarde-C resist V-create and have immense physical bulk to handle Ground-type STAB moves. They are also viable Magic Bounce users and thus can potentially completely shut down Groudon. Giratina in particular is harder to take down as it avoids 2HKO from any attack from Groudon. However, both Giratina and Zygarde-C have a chance to fall to +2 Fleur Cannon and do not appreciate burn from Sacred Fire.
**Mega Rayquaza**: Mega Rayquaza, while it is not as durable, has enough bulk to switch into Thousand Arrows if desperately needed and resists V-create. Although it is annoyed by Stealth Rock that Primal Groudon tends to run, it can easily dent or KO in return with Aerilate-boosted Boomburst or even set up on it. However, it is incapable of handling boosted Primal Groudon, as +2 Thousand Arrows may KO it after Stealth Rock damage and +2 Fleur Cannon's damage is lethal.
**Special Attackers**: Even apart from Mega Rayquaza, Groudon is easily threatened by special attackers due to its modest Special Defense stat. This means the likes of Mega Mewtwo Y or Mega Gengar can easily overwhelm it with powerful STAB attacks, though none of them can realistically switch into Primal Groudon.
**Water-types**: Primal Kyogre massively threatens Groudon with its STAB move and Poison Heal variants can set up on it, though it must watch out for Tectonic Rage if weakened. Although Primal Groudon generally has an upper hand against Water-types thanks to Desolate Land, some Unaware Water-types such as Primal Kyogre, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Swampert can be trouble to deal with, as they can survive any attack from full health and end Primal Groudon's sweep with Spectral Thief.
**Fur Coat**: Fur Coat users have absurd level of physical bulk and take minimal damage from Groudon. Some Fur Coat users like Giratina and Zygarde-C are vulnerable to boosted Fleur Cannon, but Primal Groudon does not have much other ways to ever inflict notable damage to them.
At the first glance, Groudons seem to be able to function as a decent check to -ate users with Soundproof, while being able to utilize Ground typing to maintain offensive presence against Steel-types with its STAB moves while also giving it an option to employ STAB Thousand Waves to punish Steel-types or Imposter. However, Groudon is mostly eclipsed by Zygarde-C as a defensive wall. While Zygarde-C has x4 weakness to Ice-type attacks, it boasts significantly better bulk and lower Speed tier to have upper hand against other walls like Giratina. Thus, Groudon is mostly outclassed by Zygarde-C as a wall and can only justify the use when more offensive Ground-type Pokémon is desired.
Primal Groudon, while it can only be accessed by Primal Reversion via Groudon holding Red Orb, still remains as one of the formidable threats in the tier. Ground- and Fire-type offensively hits almost the entirety of the metagame neutrally and thus it can afford to use coverage moves, support moves, or status moves without much opportunity risk. Excellent offensive stats, along with Desolate Land and mentioned advantage of dual STAB, makes Primal Groudon hard to defensively handle even when it is running defensive sets. Primal Groudon also excels defensively, offensively checking Mega Diancie, Kartana, and Primal Kyogre. Its very high Defense stat lets it blanket check majority of the physical attackers in the tier. Although it has rather mediocre Special Defense and Speed stats, Primal Groudon's versatility and the utility it provides the team with outshines such downsides.
[SET]
name: Offensive Soundpoof
move 1: Thousand Waves
move 2: Parting Shot
move 3: Recover
move 4: Stealth Rock / Nuzzle / Ice Hammer
item: Groundium Z / Rocky Helmet / Safety Goggles
ability: Soundproof
nature: Relaxed / Impish
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Thousand Waves is a STAB move that does decent damage to neutral targets thanks to Groudon's good Attack stat. It is also a primary tool it uses to threaten or punish Steel-types. Notably, it scores OHKO on Mega Diancie after Stealth Rock damage, which Zygarde-C cannot do. Parting Shot allows Groudon to pivot into a teammate on a forced or predicted switch while weakening a foe. Although this can be bounced back against Magic Bounce users, it is superior choice over U-turn due to it preventing Imposter from switching due to them copying Soundproof. Recover allows Groudon to stay healthy and consistently check threats like -ate users. The last moveslot is flexible depending on what Grodon's teammates need. Stealth Rock wears down foes over the match and allows Groudon to pressure Flying-types such as Mega Rayquaza, which it struggles against. Nuzzle allows Groudon to harshly punish foes that attempt to offensively force it out, such as Mega Rayquaza and Mega Sceptile, by hindering their Speed tier. Ice Hammer is a niche option that has a chance to OHKO Mega Rayquaza.
Set Details
========
The goal of this set is to compress a role as a check to -ate types and an offensive trapper. Speed stat is minimized for Groudon to pivot as slow as possible and retain momentum for its team, although investing on Speed to outspeed the likes of Solgaleo is a considerable option. Groudium Z allows Groudon to score clean OHKO on Registeel, Solgaleo, and Aegislash while taking out Calm Mega Audino with said Z-move after Thousand Waves and some prior damage. Rocky Helmet punishes -ate users that uses Fake Out or Extreme Speed by wearing them down, as well as slow pivots that use U-turn on Groudon. Safety Goggles prevent Groudon from getting neutralized by Spore.
Usage Tips
========
Although Groudon can handle -ate users, it should scout common threats such as Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie beforehand, as their special attacks can do massive damage or even KO Groudon. Once one can confirm aforementioned threats are -ate users, Groudon can be switched into them to take physical attacks or powerful Boombursts. Against Aerilate Mega Rayquaza, especially if it is holding Sky Plate, Extreme Speed still does heavy damage, and therefore Groudon's health should be managed especially if it is counted on as the only answer. Groudon can aggressively switch into Steel-types and threaten them out while setting Stealth Rock, spreading paralysis with Nuzzle, or gain momentum with Parting Shot.
Team Options
========
Groudon is well paired with -ate users or powerful wallbreakers that dislike Steel-types such as Kartana or Kyurem-W, as they appreciate removal of problematic Steel-types such as Solgaleo and Registeel and can opt for coverage moves to hit other threats that Groudon cannot handle. They also appreciate Stealth Rock support, and Groudon's ability to lure and remove Imposter Chansey, one of the greatest checks to -ate users. Defensively, acquiring Steel-types is advised as Groudon fails to stand a chance against threats like Triage Mega Rayquaza, Magic Guard Mega Diancie, and most variants of Mega Mewtwo Y. Registeel, Solgaleo, and Aegislash are all viable options to handle these threats using Prankster, Regenerator, or Flash Fire. Solgaleo is a good blanket check to Poison Heal attackers, such as Primal Kyogre and Xerneas, which uses Groudon as a setup fodder once Z-move has been used. Aegislash is especially useful since it blocks Rapid Spin and keeps Stealth Rock on the field. Specially defensive partners, such as Primal Kyogre can protect Groudon from strong special attacks.
[SET]
name: Defensive Red Orb
move 1: Thousand Waves / Thousand Arrows
move 2: Sacred Fire / V-create
move 3: U-turn / Stealth Rock
move 4: Stealth Rock / Morning Sun / Strength Sap
item: Red Orb
ability: Grassy Surge / Electric Surge / Trace / Download
nature: Careful / Sassy
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Thousand Waves can be used to trap foes and take away momentum or KO them depending on the foe, while Thousand Arrows hits the Flying-types that would otherwise may try to switch into Primal Groudon and prevents Flash Fire Celesteela from becoming a nuisance to deal with. Sacred Fire trades power with an ability to spread burn, making checks like Giratina and Zygarde-C easier to wear down. V-create, factoring STAB, harsh sunlight, and Primal Groudon's 180 Attack stat, does lethal damage to the majority of the tier and features OHKO's on most neutral offensive foes. U-turn grabs momentum as Primal Groudon pivots out, and it is especially useful due to its ability to force switches. Stealth Rock can also be used to support Primal Groudon's team and this benefits from the number of forced switches Primal Groudon causes as well. Morning Sun heals Primal Groudon and lets it check threats like Pixilate Mega Diancie and Primal Kyogre with consistency, although other recovery moves can be used for more PP at a cost of significant decrease on healing amount. Strength Sap should only be used with Thousand Waves, as this allows Primal Groudon to gradually weaken its Imposter, PP stall it, and cause it to faint. If Primal Groudon already has a Stealth Rock user, it can opt for Spikes or other coverage moves. If used with Electric Surge, Bolt Strike can be used to hit Primal Kyogre, but the move itself doesn't hit many threats outsides that and is hard to justify to fit. Ice Beam OHKOs Mega Rayquaza after Stealth Rock damage and ensures Primal Groudon is not a fodder for Zygarde-C, which would especially prove troublesome if it has Magic Bounce.
Set Details
========
Defensive Primal Groudon compresses a role of Stealth Rock user and an offensive powerhouse. Speed stat can be minimized to pivot more efficiently, but this worsens Primal Groudon's ability to deal with Primal Kyogre and Dialga. Red Orb is required for Primal Reversion. Groudon can opt to use one of many abilities that activates temporarily before it goes through Primal Reversion and gains Desolate Land. Grassy Surge provides Primal Groudon with recovery, but this also heals foes. Electric Surge provides Primal Groudon and its teammates with temporary immunity to sleep. In a similar vein, Misty Surge can be used if none of Primal Groudon's teammates appreciate the boosted base power of Electric moves, and it weakens Core Enforcer. Trace directly reveals a foe's ability before Primal Reversion, and this can be effective if Primal Groudon is used as a lead. Download, depending on the foe, can give it +1 Attack, but the boost is only temporary.
Usage Tips
========
If Stealth Rock is opted for, Primal Groudon can take advantage of its offensive presence and an ability to force switches to set said hazard early in the game. That said, as much Primal Groudon forces switches and draws in physically defensive foes like Giratina and Zygarde-C, carefully scouting foes' switch-in to Primal Groudon and pivoting with U-turn is a promising idea. V-create, while it is immensely powerful, it has low PP and is walled relatively easily by Giratina and Zygarde-C and leaves Primal Groudon susceptible to attacks, so it should be used with caution. Sacred Fire should be used carefully in the same vein, but it can be used early many times if spreading burn is desired. Primal Groudon's another efficient check is Imposter Chansey which can even switch into Ground-type moves when healthy. While Primal Groudon can trap and defeat its own Imposter one on one if using Thousand Waves and Strength Sap, it will otherwise struggle against it and even give it a free turn to recover, set hazards, or take away momentum. Defensively, Primal Groudon can be liberally switched into Mega Diancie, Kartana, and Primal Kyogre. Primal Groudon also excels at handling Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados by absorbing Knock Off. Although Primal Groudon is defensively great, do not be too reckless with it, as it is quite specially frail even with boosting nature and is susceptible to residual damage and Spore due to its inability to choose other items over Red Orb.
Team Options
========
Primal Groudon can be paired with Pokémon that appreciate the ability to immensely threaten Steel-types, check Mega Diancie and Primal Kyogre, and set hazards or trap and eliminate Imposter Chansey. Dialga is an excellent partner that can handle Mega Rayquaza and threaten Dragon-types that check Primal Groudon. Variants with Regenerator and Assault Vest can safely bring in Primal Groudon with U-turn and let it preserve its PP for recovery moves and keep itself healthy to avoid 2HKO from powerful attacks such as Pixilate Mega Diancie's Boomburst and Kartana's Sunsteel Strike. Primal Groudon can take advantage of Steel-types that Dialga naturally draws in. Pixilate Mega Diancie vastly appreciates Primal Groudon's ability to cover Steel-types and set entry hazards so that it can use other moves, such as Shell Smash and King's Shield that it could previously not opt for. Primal Groudon imposterproofs Mega Diancie and can potentially remove Imposter so that foes will have a nightmare dealing Mega Diancie later in the match if their only answer to it was Imposter Chansey. Kartana is another offensive powerhouse that appreciates Primal Groudon's ability to take advantage of Steel-types and Primal Groudon itself can imposterproof Kartana. Kartana in return can break through Giratina and potentially cripple a wall by passing on its Choice Band to a wall using Switcheroo. Giratina can block Rapid Spin and imposterproof Primal Groudon, while Primal Groudon threatens out majority of the Magic Bounce users in the tier and checks Fairy-types. Mega Gyarados can handle Refrigerate users like Kyurem-W while hindering walls with Knock Off.
[SET]
name: Offensive Red Orb
move 1: Shell Smash / Shift Gear
move 2: Thousand Arrows / Bonemerang / Precipice Blades
move 3: Sacred Fire
move 4: Fleur Cannon / Morning Sun
item: Red Orb
ability: Illusion / Download
nature: Naughty / Rash / Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
This variant of Primal Groudon boosts its already high offensive stats to the level where it can OHKO or 2HKO majority of the tier. Shell Smash instantly boosts Primal Groudon to nigh unwallable levels and lets it OHKO most offensive threats after Stealth Rock damage. Shift Gear fixes Primal Groudon's Speed by letting it outspeed the entirety of the unboosted metagame while boosting the attack, letting it retain its defensive stats at a cost of lacking immediate power and an ability to use special coverage moves. As a Ground-type STAB move, Thousand Arrows is the most consistent option that handles Flash Fire Celesteela and Mega Rayquaza. Bonemerang is an option to bypass Focus Sash users such as Mega Mewtwo X and Deoxys-A, which would otherwise survive a hit and revenge kill Primal Groudon. Precipice Blades, although it is not consistent, is the only way Primal Groudon can 2HKO Unaware Primal Kyogre and Mega Gyarados on switch and allows Primal Groudon to dish out massive damage even when unboosted. Sacred Fire rounds up Primal Groudon's STAB combination and it OHKOs bulky threats such as Mega Mewtwo X and Regigigas after the boost and lets it spread status in an event where it won't find an opportunity to set up. Fleur Cannon allows Primal Groudon to deal with Giratina, Zygarde-C, and Mega Rayquaaza by OHKOing the former two after some prior damage and the latter without prior damage. Coverage against Mega Rayquaza is especially valuable if Thousand Arrows was not opted for. On the other hand, if Primal Groudon opted for Shift Gear, Morning Sun lets it consistently set up against passive foes while letting it stay healthy and check threats like Mega Diancie and Kartana.
Set Details
========
There are many options for choosing Primal Groudon's nature to meet different benchmarks. Naughty nature or Rash nature can be chosen depending on whether Primal Groudon desires a better chance to OHKO Mega Rayquaza and Primal Kyogre with +2 Thousand Arrows or a better chance to OHKO Giratina and Zygarde-C with +2 Fleur Cannon. If Primal Groudon opted for Shift Gear, Adamant nature is the best option to dish out as much damage as possible while retaining the bulk. Red Orb is mandatory for Primal Reversion. Illusion allows Primal Groudon to set up without fearing Imposter the first time it enters the battle, and thanks to the mechanic of Primal Reversion with Illusion, Imposter cannot copy Primal Groudon even after it has been hit. Download is another option to boost Primal Groudon's immediate power but this set will vulnerable to Imposter as a result. Various abilities like Electric Surge can be run to bluff defensive sets.
Usage Tips
========
Especially if running Shell Smash, Primal Groudon should avoid any form of damage, as it should be as healthy as possible to successfully set up and take as many hits from -ate users as possible. This Primal Groudon is fairly straightforward to use. After it is safely pivoted into the field by its teammate through U-turn, Volt Switch, or Parting Shot, Primal Groudon can take advantage of Steel-types or other foes it forces out and set up to pose a threat to opposing team. If Primal Groudon did not opt for Illusion, refrain from setting up as losing a speed tie against Imposter might be very detrimental for the team, as this set is extremely hard to imposterproof after the boost. Shift Gear sets can play more aggressively thanks to access to recovery moves, but it is not durable as when Primal Groudon opted for Careful or Sassy nature so it should be played with caution. Giratina and Zygarde-C are also very hard to bypass even after boosts, so make sure they are weakened or eliminated before attempting to sweep. In general, scout defensive foes before attempting to sweep, as Spectral Thief from the likes of Mega Audino and Dialga can spoil the attempt to do so.
Team Options
========
Physical attackers like Mega Mewtwo X, Kartana, and Regigigas appreciates Primal Groudon leaving massive holes in the opposing team and potentially luring and removing Giratina and Zygarde-C with boosted Fleur Cannon. Some of them also appreciate Primal Groudon's ability to deal with Steel-types. For Primal Groudon to sweep or dish out as much damage as possible, it will require various support from teammates. Knock Off users like Mega Gyarados or Mega Tyranitar can remove Assault Vest from Dragon-types and prevent them from being able to handle +2 Fleur Cannon later in the match while bringing in Primal Groudon safely via pivoting after drawing in Steel-types. Entry hazards are also appreciated, as it lets Primal Groudon opt for Thousand Arrows over Bonemerang for broader coverage and allows it to have better chance to OHKO defensive walls.
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Regular Groudon has very few other options to choose apart from offensive trapper; defensive sets like Fur Coat is completely outclassed by Zygarde-C, and offensive sets are outclassed by Mega Garchomp due to its Dragon typing that threatens common Ground-type checks such as Giratina and Zygarde-C and higher Attack stat. Primal Groudon, on the other hand, has numerous options to choose as coverage move or support moves. Bolt Strike hits Water-types that switch into V-create, Solar Blade is a niche option to OHKO Mega Swampert, and gimmicky options like Sunsteel Strike or Poison Fang can be used to lure and KO Sturdy Shedinja, but the two latter moves are extremely hard to justify using. Taunt on defensive sets can annoy Giratina and Zygarde-C while preventing the likes of Poison Heal Primal Kyogre and Xerneas from gaining excessive boosts or using sleep-inducing moves, but this too is hard to fit and can backfire against Magic Bounce users. Entrainment is an interesting option to check aforementioned Poison Heal sweepers and scout for Magic Bounce users before setting Stealth Rock. Substitute allows Shell Smash variants of Primal Groudon to take advantage of Prankster users that cannot do much back and often rely on Destiny Bond to shut down rampaging Primal Groudon, but this worsens Primal Groudon's coverage.
Checks and Counters
===================
**Giratina and Zygarde-C**: Both Giratina and Zygarde-C resist V-create and have immense physical bulk to handle Ground-type STAB moves. They are also viable Magic Bounce users and thus can potentially completely shut down Groudon. Giratina in particular is harder to take down as it avoids 2HKO from any attack from Groudon. However, both Giratina and Zygarde-C have a chance to fall to +2 Fleur Cannon and do not appreciate burn from Sacred Fire.
**Mega Rayquaza**: Mega Rayquaza, while it is not as durable, has enough bulk to switch into Thousand Arrows if desperately needed and resists V-create. Although it is annoyed by Stealth Rock that Primal Groudon tends to run, it can easily dent or KO in return with Aerilate-boosted Boomburst or even set up on it. However, it is incapable of handling boosted Primal Groudon, as +2 Thousand Arrows may KO it after Stealth Rock damage and +2 Fleur Cannon's damage is lethal.
**Special Attackers**: Even apart from Mega Rayquaza, Groudon is easily threatened by special attackers due to its modest Special Defense stat. This means the likes of Mega Mewtwo Y or Mega Gengar can easily overwhelm it with powerful STAB attacks, though none of them can realistically switch into Primal Groudon.
**Water-types**: Primal Kyogre massively threatens Groudon with its STAB move and Poison Heal variants can set up on it, though it must watch out for Tectonic Rage if weakened. Although Primal Groudon generally has an upper hand against Water-types thanks to Desolate Land, some Unaware Water-types such as Primal Kyogre, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Swampert can be trouble to deal with, as they can survive any attack from full health and end Primal Groudon's sweep with Spectral Thief.
**Fur Coat**: Fur Coat users have absurd level of physical bulk and take minimal damage from Groudon. Some Fur Coat users like Giratina and Zygarde-C are vulnerable to boosted Fleur Cannon, but Primal Groudon does not have much other ways to ever inflict notable damage to them.
Last edited:
Hello ! So i've been playing hackmons a bit and i don't know if this has been adressed before but
Illusion isn't working as intended with mega evolving / primo resurging Mons.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-722892028
(this replay shows both problem)
So i used a illusion mega-kanga and my opponent used a illusion Pdon.
As you can see,when I did damage to the Pdon,the illusion didn't break.
I don't know if this is intended,but regardless this is weird.
(also don't pay attention to the team i'm using : it's not really great and needs improving.)
((and since english isn't my first language,i apologize if this post is not understandable))
Illusion isn't working as intended with mega evolving / primo resurging Mons.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-722892028
(this replay shows both problem)
So i used a illusion mega-kanga and my opponent used a illusion Pdon.
As you can see,when I did damage to the Pdon,the illusion didn't break.
I don't know if this is intended,but regardless this is weird.
(also don't pay attention to the team i'm using : it's not really great and needs improving.)
((and since english isn't my first language,i apologize if this post is not understandable))
Your English is fine first of all. It's intended - Groudon comes in as illusion and nothing is done from there to break the illusion until primal reversion occurs, so the illusion stays up and the base ability changes so you cannot remove the illusion until switchout.
As an FYI, and a continuation from what GL Volkner mentioned below, same goes for Megas, and Ultra form Necrozma.
The reason it doesn’t break is because you have Illusion active on switch in, then when you switch forms, the ability goes away (and since it was before damage the Illusion is active). So, since Illusion only breaks on switch out or when hit, Illusion can’t be removed since by the time you are hit, Illusion itself as an ability is gone (removing the only method of getting rid of it).