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BH Balanced Hackmons

While I do personally believe that Illusion is probably the most underrated ability in BH, it most certainly is not superior to Kartana. Mega Mewtwo X went from being overrated trash like Mega Gyarados to a fairly decent attacker thanks to the introduction of Photon Geyser, but it is simply not as effective as Kartana.

Mega Mewtwo X has about 3 or 4 viable sets, but each individual set has glaring weaknesses that I won't get into right now but should be self-evident. Meanwhile, Kartana has over 10 viable sets each having 0 or 1 viable sets that can wall it.

I can neither confirm nor deny that Mega Mewtwo X is the most skillful user of Illusion as I have not completed sufficient tests in that area, but I do know from my past experiences with it that it's definitely not the most powerful offensive utility. Illusion is by no means a bad ability, but it simply can't rival the brutality of Kartana.

I will not be presenting any replays to support my claims in this moment as my sets are classified, but stay tuned for the next BH tour and you will see the wrath of Kartana.

PS: I would be interested in testing some Illusion teams more extensively than I have in the past because I do think if used correctly it can be devastating to play against.
 
ScarfWynaut said:
This is some awful logic... All I wanted was clarification as to why you thought Illusion MMX is the best Pokemon... Instead I got this nonsense. Hazards don't ruin Illusion because you can just tank a U-turn? That'd require a U-turn that deals exactly the same amount entry hazards do (which mostly is totally out of one's control) which vary depending on the type of hazard, and then you'd need to keep the chipped Pokemon in the back, not recover its health or allow it to take damage. On top of that, it's required to also resist Stealth Rock to match MMX... Are you even aware of how restrictive and totally unreasonable this is? What happens when the U-turn roll doesn't go in your favor? Are you just going to magically take 2% less damage to satisfy the HP requirement? Please. Then there's the "ahh just outplay viable & common means of counterplay" argument, as if outplaying a competent opponent is a requirement. "Not every move a competent opponent makes will be competent"? Where do you get off making assumptions like this? Hopefully our readers don't have to ask why this is terrible logic. You claim Illusion's purpose is to keep the opponent guessing, when in actuality the tools I mentioned in my initial post all can be used to confirm the Illusion Pokemon's identity, removing the need for guesswork? RNG can be played around? Give me a break. Avoiding Poison Fang's poison or Scald's burn is not something you can just "plan". Once it lands, what now? Status removal / prevention is uncommon, even despite my and a few users' recent usage of Misty Surge and Comatose (Facts don't lie).

After having the displeasure of reading that I'm going to go ahead and use this opportunity to remind our readers to include replays, or some other form of evidence, in your posts if you want to prove what you say is actually true, especially if it concerns supposedly the best Pokemon in the metagame.
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I'm sorry for not taking the time to properly format my post (because when do you expect proper essays and whatnot on the internet), my excuse is that I was on my phone and I find the touch controls to be frustrating far too often. I'd also like to apologize for trying to explain why I disagree with the points that you brought up, not sure when it became wrong to try and refute an argument. My original post about illusion MMX being the best pokemon was a joke, anyone who should claim that a pokemon is the best in any specific meta should, like you said, provide sound evidence and reasoning. With my comments on the unwarranted rudeness of your response out of the way, I'd like to go into more detail about what I said earlier.

Regarding what I said about U-turn, hardly anyone I have battled has had either the patience or the attention span to remember exactly what health your illusion pokemon is on all the time, with u-turn or similarly weak moves making it more difficult to keep track of as it make your hp a number that isn't divisible by hazards like Stealth Rocks which is how I usually keep track of opposing illusion mons. This can be especially difficult if you consider how often battles can go on for large periods of time. With the next point in mind, I'd rather not argue over the consistency of good players as that is largely opinion and would be difficult to prove regardless however I still believe that players won't always perform optimally throughout the course of the battle. As for RNG, I'll try to explain it more as I was actually concerned at this part whether or not my point would get through; RNG can be avoided as you'd typically want to switch MMX in safely via a slow pivot, after a pokemon fainted, etc, so you'd usually do this after you've scouted the opponent's moveset on the pokemon you are trying to knock out. As you might guess, you can swap MMX out if you don't think you can finish the opponent and/or don't want to risk getting statused afterwords, as you would with any other mon.
If you would like to see some replays then I will gladly provide, do keep in mind that these are before the Psychic Surge ban but illusion plays pretty much the same.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-688449709 this is me vs Willdbeast in round 1 where illusion opens up for KyuW to sweep, though it doesn't do too much by itself it does allow me to trick my opponent into letting KyuW get an easy ohko in Giratina which would've helped Will stall against the rest of my team since Yveltal had already fainted and Giratina would be forced to tank Core Enforcers, albeit in Misty Terrain.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-704788716 this was a ladder battle between me and Greenheroes where illusion MMX just instantly removes his main answer to Specsurge MMY, forcing him to rely on Magearna to wall it, which it still did because I didn't want to be bothered with getting low rolls on Psystrike lol.


Duckymomo Senior said:
While I do personally believe that Illusion is probably the most underrated ability in BH, it most certainly is not superior to Kartana. Mega Mewtwo X went from being overrated trash like Mega Gyarados to a fairly decent attacker thanks to the introduction of Photon Geyser, but it is simply not as effective as Kartana.

Mega Mewtwo X has about 3 or 4 viable sets, but each individual set has glaring weaknesses that I won't get into right now but should be self-evident. Meanwhile, Kartana has over 10 viable sets each having 0 or 1 viable sets that can wall it.

I can neither confirm nor deny that Mega Mewtwo X is the most skillful user of Illusion as I have not completed sufficient tests in that area, but I do know from my past experiences with it that it's definitely not the most powerful offensive utility. Illusion is by no means a bad ability, but it simply can't rival the brutality of Kartana.

I will not be presenting any replays to support my claims in this moment as my sets are classified, but stay tuned for the next BH tour and you will see the wrath of Kartana.

PS: I would be interested in testing some Illusion teams more extensively than I have in the past because I do think if used correctly it can be devastating to play against.
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whats ur kartana gona do 2 my intimidat zygdo????
 
Runs defiant ice hammer/icicle crash
Illusion is certainly very good at luring out checks to another mon and removing it to clear the way for that mon (I used MegaChomp with Diancie before) but it is no where near broken because the lack of a boosting ability reduces the power output quite significantly and also should it decide to set-up it can be easily revenge killed. It is not defining the meta that every team needs an answer to illusion (not that you can usually)
 
Chessking345 said:
Runs defiant ice hammer/icicle crash
Illusion is certainly very good at luring out checks to another mon and removing it to clear the way for that mon (I used MegaChomp with Diancie before) but it is no where near broken because the lack of a boosting ability reduces the power output quite significantly and also should it decide to set-up it can be easily revenge killed. It is not defining the meta that every team needs an answer to illusion (not that you can usually)
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I would say that changing abilities can make a huge difference. For example, Kanga has to Mega Evolve to be useful anyways, its Item Slot is already designated for its Mega Stone, and not knowing that you will take 75% Damage regardless of type is pretty devastating, especially if it can break substitutes and defensive behemoths like Zygarde.

I think you are right about most cases, but if we look at the most effective use of Illusion (something that has no loss using it - such as a Pokémon that would Mega anyways), it’s hard to ignore that an ability like Illusion, enabled it to bypass your sense of strategy because you literally didn’t know.

I wouldn’t say it’s broken, but I would say that it’s lack of power boosting abilities is all relative. What if you change form with something that Has to change form (like Red Orb Groudon)?

Also, the fact they cannot be Impostered actually makes them harder (not easier) to be revenge killed! You cannot View their moveset, nor can you predict what moves they possibly might have because you don’t even know what Pokémon it is.

They send in “Shedinja”, and then you realize you are facing a Spore using Belly Drummer that can sweep your team.

Even if you know what Pokemon it is (like Illusion Groudon with Red Orb), if it sets up Shell Smash and you cannot use Imposter, that is a huge disadvantage on your side. And Desolate Land is an offensive (and defensive) ability that stacks with Illusion.

I wouldn’t say it defines the metagame the way Imposter does, but you know that at the end of the game, if you had known what you were facing you wouldn’t have been “played” into allowing a sweeper to set up...

Meta defining? No.
Game changing? Yes!
This is because seeing a different Pokémon than the one actually there will literally change how you play your game.

Also, if you Illusion on your team, you won’t necessarily know that your opponent has Illusion, because if you end up taking longer than them to select your team order you think it was only you trying to organize, not your opponent. When I took Illusion off my own team, I was better able to tell when someone else had it.
 
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I agree with what you said, but
Attackers use its imposter proof ability and a surprise factor but there are options that also bypass imposter like unburden and quick feet and plates (items are less valuable than abilities). Where revenge killing comes in is priority, since scarf imp is a rare thing. While it certainly can screw up ones game plan by removing a mon and paving way for a sweeper at the back it is not unhealthy for the meta as it simply requires more prediction.
There are only 2 viable form changers, red orb and kanga, both only use it for imposterproof which is pretty good but red orb instant reveals whereas kanga is kinda predictable. Ofc they are the best abilities unless you are running misty defensive don
 
Chessking345 said:
I agree with what you said, but
Attackers use its imposter proof ability and a surprise factor but there are options that also bypass imposter like unburden and quick feet and plates (items are less valuable than abilities). Where revenge killing comes in is priority, since scarf imp is a rare thing. While it certainly can screw up ones game plan by removing a mon and paving way for a sweeper at the back it is not unhealthy for the meta as it simply requires more prediction.
There are only 2 viable form changers, red orb and kanga, both only use it for imposterproof which is pretty good but red orb instant reveals whereas kanga is kinda predictable. Ofc they are the best abilities unless you are running misty defensive don
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Well I have used Illusion for Gyarados to Mega Evolve, Mold Breaker to Set Up Hazards and pretending to be Aegislash work really well for deterring it’s Counters, and various other form changes (Necrozma-DW/DM both use the same item and become the same form, so you cannot tell).

One thing I saw that was surprising was an Illusion Slaking that used Belly Drum, Extreme Speed, Spectral Thief, and Spore/Thousand Arrows pretending to be Shedinja. It set up and couldn’t be Spectral Thieved.
It served as a Lead and therefore it didn’t switch into Hazards (which would have given away the fact it was not Shedinja), and didn’t switch into an Attack which was would have broken the Illusion.
Mind you, the only moves Slaking is afraid of are Fighting moves, and Shedinja is Immune to that so of course I didn’t use that, which allowed it to set up.
I have seen several teams lead with that. No boosting Ability has a drawback, unless it gives you a free turn to make up for it... also, Illusion doesn’t something else- if you have 2 on a team (and multiple of the same pokemon), you can confuse the foe into not knowing which one is which (assuming you haven’t taken damage).
 
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One thing that confused me was when the opposition used 2 Illusion mons. One was a Mega Rayquaza with Choice Specs and the other was an Illusion Mega Garchomp. The Mega Garchomp disguised itself as the Mega Rayquaza and OHKOd my Registeel on the switch and the Mega Rayquaza was disguised as a second Mega Garchomp and it OHKOd my Fur Coat Giratina on the switch.

Another good use of Illusion is to reveal that you have a Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza with Draco Meteor and disguise an Illusion Kartana with Sunsteel Strike as the Mega Rayquaza to OHKO fairy types.
 
Chessking345 said:
I agree with what you said, but
Attackers use its imposter proof ability and a surprise factor but there are options that also bypass imposter like unburden and quick feet and plates (items are less valuable than abilities). Where revenge killing comes in is priority, since scarf imp is a rare thing. While it certainly can screw up ones game plan by removing a mon and paving way for a sweeper at the back it is not unhealthy for the meta as it simply requires more prediction.
There are only 2 viable form changers, red orb and kanga, both only use it for imposterproof which is pretty good but red orb instant reveals whereas kanga is kinda predictable. Ofc they are the best abilities unless you are running misty defensive don
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I would also add that Electric Surge works well with Groudon using Bolt Strike. It prevents Spore, it’s already immune to Burn, and most forms of paralysis (Nuzzle, No Guard Zap Cannon), and Bolt Strike means it can use Thousand Waves or Precipice Blades over Thousand Arrows. It also gives it a move to handle Kyogre, Yveltal, Lugia, and Gyarados-Mega. Further, unlike Misty Terrain, it doesn’t reduce a common type of attack’s damage (Dragon), why activate a terrain that means even your moves don’t deal as much. If you need to handle Dragon moves, then switch to a Fairy type. Pairs nicely with a Galvanize or anyone with Electric Attacks (No Guard Zap Cannon Mewtwo).

It can now hit Ho-Oh, and (Flash Fire/Primordial Sea) Celesteelia harder than with Thousand Arrows, while under Electric Surge.

Even after Surge is gone, Bolt Strike offers powerful coverage. Take that Slowbro-Mega!

Misty Terrain removes the benefits of using Sacred Fire on Groudon and obligates V-Create, while Electric Surge doesn’t negatively limit your moves. Also Electric Surge won’t help your foe since Groudon is immune to their new boosted moves. Kyogre-Primal is absolutely hard countered by Electric Surge, Bolt Strike Red Orb Groudon. No Spore, and 195 X 2 = 390 base power off Groudon’s Base 180 Attack.
 
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The problem I have with surge abilities on pdon is that they only work once, so when you bring it on the field, you are basically committing yourself to keeping it there. Pdon is a really good offensive pivot so it is worse to rely on those terrains. Illusion is better to be imposterproof than the terrain abilities imho; put terrain on a support mon and slow pivot to illusion pdon instead. I do like electric surge support and though i don't run bolt strike, the sleep immunity is very worth it. Pdon's biggest nemesis is Giratina, so adding extra coverage to it is only worth it if you can hit 2hKO Giratina with it, hence Fleur Cannon. Also, V-create in sun hits harder resisted than neutral Precipice Blades (v create = 180 bp*1.5 stab*1.5 sunlight/2 resist = 202.5), precipice blades = 120 bp*1.5 stab = 180, and though it has a nasty side effect of lowering pdon's stats, there is no reason not to run it over sacred fire unless you really need the burns.
 
Would rather not look through 56 pages, so does anyone know any good fun sets that have been posted here, or just any that come to mind?

This is my favorite

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 hp / 252 atk / 252 def / 252 spa / 252 spd
Brave Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shadow Force
- Copycat
- Spore

Just a fun set i like to play with, not very good obviously but i like it. Prankster Spore is cool, just watch for M Bounce or Safety Goggles, and ofc dark types, which you just lose to :p
 
Balanced Freakmons said:
Duckymomo Senior, this is the best BH mon. In what world do you live? xD

TheUltimateOne <3 (Kyogre-Primal) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Moonblast
- Quiver Dance
- Spore
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252 Atk Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 426-504 (105.4 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Fuck Primal Kyogre
 
Just here to dump a quick set.

Regigigas @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat


Click Belly Drum and profit.

The only thing that can reliably deal with it that have seen so far is prankster mons that resists normal attacks. Everything else is butchered on the spot.
 
Why would you use this:

Regigigas @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat

When you could use this:

Kartana @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Sunsteel Strike
- Horn Leech
- Sacred Fire

???
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Kartana Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 572-673 (137.5 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There's also Flash Fire Kartana which I know is uncommon but it's about as common as ho oh
 
Chessking345 said:
Casually loses to scarf imposter and risks the speed tie with eviolite
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Imposterproof with Prankster Giratina

Duckymomo Senior said:
Why would you use this:

Regigigas @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat

When you could use this:

Kartana @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Sunsteel Strike
- Horn Leech
- Sacred Fire

???
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Don't worry I am running that as well.
 
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The_Real_w2www said:
Imposterproof with Prankster Giratina
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+6 252+ Atk Regigigas Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 636-750 (126.1 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not really imposterproof - if they correctly predict when you're going to switch to Giratina, you're dead.
Though to be fair, if they expect you to switch to Giratina and you don't, this happens:

+6 252+ Atk Regigigas Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 662-780 (94 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
chartung17 said:
+6 252+ Atk Regigigas Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 636-750 (126.1 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not really imposterproof - if they correctly predict when you're going to switch to Giratina, you're dead.
Though to be fair, if they expect you to switch to Giratina and you don't, this happens:

+6 252+ Atk Regigigas Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 662-780 (94 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
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Ya you have to play some mindgames, so I usually bring out regigigas after chansey is taken out. Then Regigigas can wreck havoc on the enemy team, often sweeping for game.
 
TBH that set still has some answers. Including Imposter (Scarf wins and eviolite is a speed tie), Prankster Steel, Prankster Ghost, NormGar, Faster Priority, and maybe some other stuff too.
Are you the person that I played like 3 times now with the Drum Unburden Kartana, Drum Triage Kartana, Drum Mold Breaker Gigas, Drum Dazzle MMX, Drum Galvanize Zekrom, and a pretty random Unaware Gyara?
 
itsmesam said:
whats spooky gar? spooky plate gengar? also, what would be a good counter for a stat boosted chantey like if it imposters my contrary regi
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Yes, Spooky Gar is Spooky Plate Normalize Gengar with Judgement so imposter Mons can't hit it. A good counter for a Imposter Chansey transformed into contrary regigigas would be pretty much any priority like an -Ate mon/prankster topsy turvy, Unaware mons like Necrozma-Dusk or MGyra would also work
 
LemonCakeDude said:
Yes, Spooky Gar is Spooky Plate Normalize Gengar with Judgement so imposter Mons can't hit it. A good counter for a Imposter Chansey transformed into contrary regigigas would be pretty much any priority like an -Ate mon/prankster topsy turvy, Unaware mons like Necrozma-Dusk or MGyra would also work
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Actually, Spooky Gengar can run DazzleSmash or Mold Breaker with Secret Sword for near perfect neutral coverage and without sacking the ability slot.
 
Magikingdra said:
Actually, Spooky Gengar can run DazzleSmash or Mold Breaker with Secret Sword for near perfect neutral coverage and without sacking the ability slot.
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yes but if it does that, it loses out on the ability to entrain normalize, which is a big benefit of norm gar that seems to have been completely overlooked
 
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