Does Aromatherapy not work through soundproof?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
Phat Albert You can also use PH Toxic Orb, in spite of safety goggles such as giratina, Slaking, etc. Heal bell can be worse than Refresh if you have Poison Heal, because it stops the immediate healing.
Alright,
Alright, idk what I was smoking when I said this, but (thanks to motherlove for pointing this out) I realize it was idiotic to suggest walling a mon with basically infinite pp with a move that has only 8. Sweet Jesus, I retract my statement, Refresh is clearly better in this situation than Heal Bell. Either way, it is still typically better to have a improof that can actually do something back to the imposter, otherwise they can just stay in and click buttons until they've wasted 20 of your pp. So I'd suggest either a phazing or status move on your chansey if you're walling it with that, or something like spectral thief on Flash Fire Aegislash if you're walling it with that.
(For anyone looking for the post in question, I deleted it because I was being a nub)
Alright, idk what I was smoking when I said this, but (thanks to motherlove for pointing this out) I realize it was idiotic to suggest walling a mon with basically infinite pp with a move that has only 8. Sweet Jesus, I retract my statement, Refresh is clearly better in this situation than Heal Bell. Either way, it is still typically better to have a improof that can actually do something back to the imposter, otherwise they can just stay in and click buttons until they've wasted 20 of your pp. So I'd suggest either a phazing or status move on your chansey if you're walling it with that, or something like spectral thief on Flash Fire Aegislash if you're walling it with that.
(For anyone looking for the post in question, I deleted it because I was being a nub)
the whole soundproof blocking heal bell was actually removed iirc. idr when it was removed but im certain gen 6+7 doesn't block heal bell with soundproof.
also to add oil to the flame, its also less beneficial to remove your own poison off poison healers especially considering they are the "prime knock off absorbers" nowadays.
Why is poison heal so popular in the first place, as opposed to say comatose+leftovers, which keeps the status immunity and some of the passive healing without being forced out every time by core enforcer?
In the case of Regigigas it gives him an absurdly powerful STAB that has the same strength as Boomburst in the form of Facade while also providing twice as much recovery at the end of every turn
While Pogre doesn't have any moves that benefit from the toxic poison it still provides great bulk which leftovers does not provide making it very difficult to take down
Poison heal is way better at imposterproofness. For example, half of the selling point of PH Pogre is that it laugh at imposter, given that not only the imposter lacks the recovery, but is also risks the burn from Scald.
Pogre will outlast any imposter while giving them no recovery (Pogre sometimes runs Leech Seed, but the move is again imposterproof).
Meanwhile said Pogre won't mind eating a Knock Off once in a while. On the other hand Comatose doesn't offer such traits, and the imposter can use Comatose for good (not as good as the original, check this (it's old but it should be still valid)).
Ok you are forced out by Core Enforcer, but so is -ate, Triage, Magic Bounce, well probably 70% of the abilities in this meta. And counter measures exist: PH Xerneas has an immunity to it, Tapu Fini is a compromise between Pogre and Xerneas (it's actually a dust more physically bulkier than Pogre, and 72% specially bulky as the whale, but after some Quiver Dance you wont notice the difference. Also it has a very nice typing, with six resist, one immunity and 3 weaknesses (one of them being Poison, which is rather unheard of in this meta)), and Regigigas can run Avalanche to underprioritize Core Enforcer and thus not having its ability suppressed.
You can then go dumb and run Imprison + Core Enforcer to become 100% imposterproof (unless its struggle kills you) or Protect (or whatever is close enough) + Disable.
Last edited:
on top of all the mentioned above, poison heal actually heals you for double the amount too. which at first sounds meh, but after three turns, you recover slightly under ~50% of your hp meanwhile lefties gives you 24% in that same three turns. so to sum it all up,
poison heal pros over comatose:
knock off doesnt remove healing permanently
slightly easier to imposterproof
significantly higher healing
facade 140 base power
poison heal cons:
removal of ability via entrainment forces the PHer to be cautious on how long it stays in.
forced to run toxic orb (enless using gimmick toxic set or w.e)
and thats it.
dont get me wrong, poison heal and comatose both have their uses, i mean, being completely immune to status AND (i dont think people know this) immunity to all*** forms of ability removal/copy***/bypass(mold breaker cant actually status you) is an insane attribute, and i think some mons like chansey definitely appriciate it. (and lolololscarf sleeptalk deoxys S dragontail roar whirlwind combo#banned) but poison heal generally has plenty more good sides to it, thus making it an excelent choice on EVERY SINGLE POKEMON barring steels and poisons and glass cannons like deoxys.
*** fun fact: imposter doesn't copy comatose's effect. its really weird... it has all the attributes of a hard-coded ability...but its not.
Last edited:
Worth noting, but even if you put Core Enforcer in all 24 of your move slots, a PH Fairy-type still doesn't give a crap.
Comatose is better for raw status immunity though. I'd definitely consider it for a dedicated cleric on a team without PH users if I ever determined I needed a dedicated cleric.
Comatose is better for raw status immunity though. I'd definitely consider it for a dedicated cleric on a team without PH users if I ever determined I needed a dedicated cleric.
comatose is honestly a outstanding ability, a really amazing ability, immunity to all forms of status, imposter cant copy it, nothing breaks through comatose...the only issue is one of its biggest upsides is done better by PH.
basically, it doesnt matter if you can do a million backflips while running, the person who runs faster is still a better runner, if you get what im saying. comatose has plenty of good traits, honestly, a bit more then PH does...but ph is just better at what comatose wants to do 99% of the time. its a shame really.
anyways, onto a different topic, is lunalas ability and multiscale seperate from ability clause? its kind of "nitpicky" and "pointless" but they DO have different effects, even if its simply "ones better".
basically, it doesnt matter if you can do a million backflips while running, the person who runs faster is still a better runner, if you get what im saying. comatose has plenty of good traits, honestly, a bit more then PH does...but ph is just better at what comatose wants to do 99% of the time. its a shame really.
anyways, onto a different topic, is lunalas ability and multiscale seperate from ability clause? its kind of "nitpicky" and "pointless" but they DO have different effects, even if its simply "ones better".
Taunt.
Also what is Gastro Acid actually doing? Use Core Enforcer or Entrainment M-gar if you want to remove an ability.
the context was rumors talking about how core enforcer doesnt do anything to fairy types
core enforcer is blocked by faries, and entrainment is blocked by mbounce. gastro is the only thing that hits both, even at a high opportunity cost.
edit: this was dumb im dumb gastro doesnt touch mbounce and skill swap hits both even through sub
Last edited:
What about skill swap? That actually works even through substitutes!
Hastro acid doesn't hit bounce, skill swap is the way to go if you want to hit bounce and pixies.
Besides, who actually runs Gastro Acid just to hit the stray PH Fairy? Entrainment is generally better anyway since most opponents don't want your ability (and if they do, your opponent might need to tweak their set) and, if they bounce it, you lose nothing but 1 PP. Gastro Acid does counter them, yes, but in the same vein that Swift counters Evasion. We might as well start suggesting Mummy as a PH counter at this point.
Typically, Core Enforcer in most cases, Entrainment for fast users and/or want to give away your ability, Skill Swap for edge cases where bypassing Sub is really desired, like on Imposter Chansey, and you don't mind losing your ability.
Typically, Core Enforcer in most cases, Entrainment for fast users and/or want to give away your ability, Skill Swap for edge cases where bypassing Sub is really desired, like on Imposter Chansey, and you don't mind losing your ability.
I've been using Kyurem-W for quite a bit now and would like to know what you guys think about him.
He's been a very powerful wallbreaker with specs, just shy of 2hko on registeel after rocks. Although its strength outside of boomburst is limited with secret sword being the only other move of use as it nails gyarados and imposters.
He's been a very powerful wallbreaker with specs, just shy of 2hko on registeel after rocks. Although its strength outside of boomburst is limited with secret sword being the only other move of use as it nails gyarados and imposters.
Core Enforcer isn't so bad, there are much better moves, but it can help against Shedinja switches and PH users, like Primal Kyogre since it resists Boomburst, and K-W gets STAB, as well as Steel-type switch ins like Aegislash, Registeel, etc.
How did people in gen5 handle sleep spam anyway?
Seeing nowadays pretty much every setup mon carries a surprise sleep move, I find it hard to imagine how it was deemed not broken even when dark void existed, safety goggles not etc; even now you pretty much need unaware/prankester goggles to counter them or otherwise you get either sleeped or koed by a boosted attack.
Were they at that time regularly using immunizing abilities that dont reveal themselves on other occasions?
Seeing nowadays pretty much every setup mon carries a surprise sleep move, I find it hard to imagine how it was deemed not broken even when dark void existed, safety goggles not etc; even now you pretty much need unaware/prankester goggles to counter them or otherwise you get either sleeped or koed by a boosted attack.
Were they at that time regularly using immunizing abilities that dont reveal themselves on other occasions?
Last edited:
Most teams had at least one Magic Bounce. Poison Heal and Status Orb Magic Guard + Psycho Shift was rather common since Knock Off and Trick were really rare. You'd also see walls with Insomnia and frequently Heal Bell to deal with it. Rain teams could use Hydration. Even still, sleep was way worse since the sleep counter would reset on switch. So dropping hazards, putting the opposing team to sleep, and shuffling them to victory was a common strategy. Especially with something like PH Spore + Dragon Tail Gigas or Prankster Whirlwind + Copycat Deo-S. I imagine that, if Gen V wasn't so strongly anti-ban on literally everything, sleep clause would have made it in sooner or later.
For comparison for the curious, I think sleep was at its weakest pre-ability clause Gen VI where 3+ Poison Healers per team was starting to become rather common.
I used to love Kyurem-W with steam erupting passion until EV limit was gone, meaning it now requires Specs to achieve crucial OHKO and 2HKOs. Scarf Refrigerate was very efficient revenge killer but now it doesnt even get guaranteed OHKO aianst Giratina with Refrigerate Boomburst with Timid nature which you need to outspeed Primals.
In my own Kyurem-W analysis, I said Kyurem-W is a fearsome wallbreaker but now the ev limit has done so many stuff, such as increase in viability of Primal Kyogre that can easily wall most Kyu-W variants and physically defensive - oriented walls now having some investment on SpDef, making easy OHKOs in the past much harder or impossible.
Also its Dragon typing, while it is useful giving STAB Core Enforcer and makes it possible for Kyurem-W to use surprise Contrary set using Scarf (no sp def ev with Naive guarantees OHKO on Imposter with +2 Draco Meteor), it leaves Kyu-W with crippling weakness againt -ates, most prominently Diancie (that lil beach which forces all team to carry Steel). Stealth Rock weakness hurts a lot too.
I love Kyurem-W and I believe it is underrated. I wrote an analysis about that ice dragon pal saying it has great niche, but thanks to no EV limit meta, it is now a Specs wallbreaker that just lures Steel. Still has a niche, but not good as it was in past, sadly. (Cries in Spanglish)
I know how you feel, scarf with modest nature doesn't get the sweet ohko on SpD Giratina which bummed me out at first until I saw the work that specs put in, it may not be as powerful as it was in the EV Limit era but it's still scary as hell to have that thing blasting away at your wall forcing you to spam recover because you're still losing almost half your health every turn. Gyarados is still annoying though if there's anything that can eat a secret sword like slowbro or ghosts :/
It may have one job with refrigerate but it does it well