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Bleh, yes Pdon isn't an answer to protean. I even specifically said rker :/
Earth power is definitally niche. I'm genuinely not sure why its used- on a ghost judgement set its outclassed by not having a move to hit you, on almost any other set its outclassed by ground judgement, and on those few remainders Magma Storm is pretty much universally better.
I'm also kind of surprised at a 0/0 invested MLatias, but that's neither here nor there.
Yes, it isn't the most reliable, but its a supremely viable mon that wins 1v1 100% of the time, can switch in at full unless the opponent is much more skilled or supremely lucky, and stops any "sweeping" in its tracks.
The point is valid, though. I suppose I'm rather too invested in an offensive playstyle if these aren't considered viable answers.
Also can we please agree that ladder usage isn't anywhere near the end all metric? On ladder (1760) moonblast and boomburst are both used more than magma storm and secret sword, which is just dumb.
Earth Power isn't used on a Ghost Judgement set at all, set using it are totally different from those sets. Moonblast/ Earth Power/ Boomburst/ KS is its own set. I'm kinda suprised you don't know it. Moonblast and Earth Power is a great coverage package and Boomburst is just the strongest special attack. Sometimes people run Magma Storm over Boomburst. So it's not "just wrong" that Moonblast is more common then Secret Sword.
And how in the world does Mega Latias ever stop a sweep?
+1 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Latias: 288-342 (79.3 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Mega Latias Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 289-342 (81.8 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thats like best case scenario and you still aren't even going to stop this sweep.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mega Latias: 260-307 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Latias Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 381-448 (107.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mega Latias: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Mega Latias does indeed win 1v1 but takes heavy damage to do so and can't possibly switch in and expect to win. It also requires a 252 hp 252 special attack set, which i'm not fond of. I'm not convinced Speed investment isn't better.
Primal Groudon dies everytime to Earth Power and requires full Special Defensive investment to live Boomburst and cannot retaliate with a OHKO. Never mind the fact that a full Special Defensive investment is terrible for Primal Groudon.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 400-476 (99 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 240-283 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
So in summary, the only thing you actually mentioned that reliably 1v1s Mega Mewtwo Y and wins is Mega Latias, and it can't switch in or stop a sweep. I imagine with Assault Vest and Sp.def investment you can probably make something like Kyogre check certain sets, but one wrong move (in this case Secret Sword) and you just lose. Not to mention you are running something with the specific intent to stop 1 ability that isn't even reliable. Thats not a sign of healthy metagame.
So after undergoing the first phase of the suspect, I can definitely see why Protean is being suspected. It definitely pushes the meta to be extremely offensive, and just enhanced any mon with moderately high offensive stats. The Mega Mewtwos in particular are extremely scary and lack many viable switchins thanks to Protean's amazing capability to destroy checks and counters with different lure options (which don't cost them anything thanks to the STAB boost they would get from the move anyways). I would like to see the meta without it in the second phase to pass my final judgement, but right now it is looking pretty banworthy in my eyes.
P.S I would like to see a Sleep Clause suspect after this one, and I know it's not only me.
This is going to come off as rude, but what? Running 4 random protean moves is a recipe for a terrible set- I've gone through well over 40, and I can assure you that there is a world of difference between a well constructed set and a random set. You might get lucky with your picks, but that's a bad thing to rely on.
Secondly, Being a good lure a) nowhere near confined to protean and b) usually done better elsewhere. Diancie, for instance, has a far better lure set in magic guard, which reks things like Registeel, Aegislash, and Slowbro while still being objectively good. MRay has similar sets, like GW, PRankster, and Contrary. MMY could just run moonblast itself, or Overheat (unless its specifically to beat FF steels? Idk what the aim of that set is, so I guess I cant help that much). MMX doesn't need lures for any of those bar MB Giratina, which protean MMX doeesn't do so well against anyway...
DOn't get me wrong, protean is amazing, but the only mons its really ever the best choice on are MMY/X, Deoxys-A, and the Lati twins.
"b) usually done better elsewhere" Not really. MG Diancie needs its 4 moveslots (LoR, HJK, Flare Blitz, Head Smash) if it wants to reliably beat Ho-Oh + Regi + Slowbro + Aegi + Venusaur and still fails to deal with the quite common flash fire Aegislash, Protean can deal with all of them including ff Aegi AND have STAB priority AND still have a free moveslot for like king's Shield or something and if you think having a free moveslot isn't a big deal than... idk dude, think again. Meanwhile it's still way easier to imposterproof (Gira, Grass type, Fur coat mon...). Neither gale wing Ray or Prankster Ray are anywhere near being a decent lure to aerilate Ray and unless it's clicking superpower on the Ttar switch, contrary doesn't do nearly enough immediate damage to just kill the Ray answer. That MMY + Gengar is from a team I ran which used Yveltal as imposterproofing. That MMX loses to the most common Ho-Oh set (magic guard) and the most common giratina set (Ph) while struggling to deal with slowbros and I don't see how straight up OHKOing all of them after rocks would be considered "not dealing with it very well" by any stretch. Not to mention it's still an extremely good set on its own.
I mean you could theatrically run something else but there's absolutely no reason to since protean is just better 90% of the time. I think you're underestimating the effect of having a STAB on what is essentially a coverage move.
That's not even mentioning the purely stallbreaking protean sets, have fun switching in a STAB lo boosted v-create from a base 190 atk and then finding another switchin for play rough. Mixed protean ray sets. Mixed protean ray sets with cc-Tarrows / pixie judgement / boomburst / bolt strike for example have close to 0 reliable switchins and aren't even particularly reliant on predicts to net kills.
Since getting passed a newly discovered counter is as simple as changing a slot, protean can also adapt to the new counters way faster than new counters can be found. My Ho-Oh already got destroyed by psystrike a bunch of times on the ladder and I wouldn't even be surprised if ppl started running spiky shield again if scarf garchomp becomes a thing. Also MMY could beat chansey easily if nubs stopped running secret sword and ran like cc or focus blast but I feel like I've already said that before.
When you see a pokemon you can relatively know what can switch in based on its stab moves but with protean you have absolutely no idea since it literally turns a pokemon into a completely different one.
lack many viable switchins thanks to Protean's amazing capability to destroy checks and counters with different lure options (which don't cost them anything thanks to the STAB boost they would get from the move anyways).
I'm just quoting that because it's a great summary of some of the points that were made. Being able to OHKO fat mons with neutral coverage is something that only protean can do.
Currently I am convinced that Protean is broken on its own merits, after using it and experimenting with it extensively. I am sure that many people will agree that Protean is broken. However, I am still unsure about my vote, because, as LaxLapras mentioned, Protean is one of the only offensive checks to -ate. Fast Protean users can run King's Shield and ensure that they will survive the ExtremeSpeed coming next turn because of the resist. Without Protean, if the -ate user predicts the King's Shield and uses, say, Boomburst, the -ate user can win the matchup if its target is weakened enough (which isn't hard to do with Hazards and good offensive pressure).
According to Smogon's tiering policy, broken should not check broken. This is the argument for voting in favor of a ban of Protean, and would lead to an easy ban in standard tiers. However, Balanced Hackmons has a history of letting broken stuff remain(i.e. Imposter and Shedinja) to check broken stuff. This is because Imposter and Shedinja contribute to a balanced metagame, despite being broken themselves. Banning Protean if it happens to prevent the metagame from reaching its breakage point could be a disaster, and thus the question we should ask ourselves is not whether Protean is broken or not, but whether it contributes to a balanced metagame.
Currently I am convinced that Protean is broken on its own merits, after using it and experimenting with it extensively. I am sure that many people will agree that Protean is broken. However, I am still unsure about my vote, because, as LaxLapras mentioned, Protean is one of the only offensive checks to -ate. Fast Protean users can run King's Shield and ensure that they will survive the ExtremeSpeed coming next turn because of the resist. Without Protean, if the -ate user predicts the King's Shield and uses, say, Boomburst, the -ate user can win the matchup if its target is weakened enough (which isn't hard to do with Hazards and good offensive pressure).
According to Smogon's tiering policy, broken should not check broken. This is the argument for voting in favor of a ban of Protean, and would lead to an easy ban in standard tiers. However, Balanced Hackmons has a history of letting broken stuff remain(i.e. Imposter and Shedinja) to check broken stuff. This is because Imposter and Shedinja contribute to a balanced metagame, despite being broken themselves. Banning Protean if it happens to prevent the metagame from reaching its breakage point could be a disaster, and thus the question we should ask ourselves is not whether Protean is broken or not, but whether it contributes to a balanced metagame.
Sheddy and Imposter aren't broken by BH standards for multiple reasons. We talked about them in depth over and over and over again. I suggest you revisit some of the arguments. Flint even explains in the op how Imposter and Shed fails to meet BH's ban criteria. So the premise of your question isn't even valid. There is no precedent in BH of letting broken check broken. As for the question itself Protean isn't enough of a hindrance to -ate to justify the brokeness it brings into BH. King's Shield itself is a much bigger hindrance to -ate and King's Shield is good on non-protean sets and can still check -ate without it.
I'd rather wait for the non protean suspect ladder to see how -ate is without protean around. Maybe people will have to rely more on offensive rocks / steels or fire type like mg aerodactyle, or stack up damage via rocky helmet. A Bunch of steels can also run good regenvest sets while still having offensive presence. We'll see thought.
But tbh I don't think anybody in the current meta run protean as their only -ate answer.
Currently I am convinced that Protean is broken on its own merits, after using it and experimenting with it extensively. I am sure that many people will agree that Protean is broken. However, I am still unsure about my vote, because, as LaxLapras mentioned, Protean is one of the only offensive checks to -ate. Fast Protean users can run King's Shield and ensure that they will survive the ExtremeSpeed coming next turn because of the resist. Without Protean, if the -ate user predicts the King's Shield and uses, say, Boomburst, the -ate user can win the matchup if its target is weakened enough (which isn't hard to do with Hazards and good offensive pressure).
According to Smogon's tiering policy, broken should not check broken. This is the argument for voting in favor of a ban of Protean, and would lead to an easy ban in standard tiers. However, Balanced Hackmons has a history of letting broken stuff remain(i.e. Imposter and Shedinja) to check broken stuff. This is because Imposter and Shedinja contribute to a balanced metagame, despite being broken themselves. Banning Protean if it happens to prevent the metagame from reaching its breakage point could be a disaster, and thus the question we should ask ourselves is not whether Protean is broken or not, but whether it contributes to a balanced metagame.
as ks has said, we have never "let broken check broken" as both shedinja and chansey have "unique properties" that don't count for being "Broken". as they are only "broken" if you dont teambuild with them in mind (pretty much like every other threat except 100x easier for you) and as for if the ban leads to a healthy metagame...yes it does. because ate is literally going to be the next on the hitlist more then likely. bh has limited its standards of banning specificly because this gen has been god awful to bh with all the powerhouses, super strong abilities, and lack of viable walls. and if we arent prepared to dig as deep as we can go, theres no point to ban shit in the first place. if protean is broken. ban protean, if ate is broken, ban ate. then, the abilities that will fill in for these, will likely NOT be as powerful, which is already a HUGE improvement for the metagame.
we shouldnt be scared to ban stuff in this metagame anymore. we were edgy about it before because BH's "safety nets"(no ev limit) ALLOWED us to. we don't have them anymore. so lets try to fix this meta's stability before the next gen comes and we get MORE problems we have to deal with.
You funny, Protean has no coverage moves, each move counts full.
You can do some real cool mindgames with/vs Protean.
Lets say MMY vs M-Latias, MMY can choose its coverage, while the M-Latias has to calculate/predict the movechoice.
Not to mention those win/lose predictions are very intense.
M-Diancle vs MMY;
Kings Shield win if attacked, No Kings Shield lose if Extremee Speed. Kings Shield lose if Sub/Boost, No Kings Shield win if no priority.
It mostly did, for me. I use a pair of 2. One with Soild Rock, the other with Unaware.
Basicly if the MMY does not boost he can not 2HKO the Solid Rock, if he boosts i have an Unaware.
M-Latios (SD) is far stronger than MMY. I have seen Tinted Lens Psystrike doing 70% to Aegislash.
It is the only one who can 1HKO 252/252+ Giratina 100% of time without ability boost or move restrictions.
...I'd rather wait for the non protean suspect ladder to see how -ate is without protean around.
But tbh I don't think anybody in the current meta run protean as their only -ate answer...
...both shedinja and chansey have "unique properties" that don't count for being "Broken".
as they are only "broken" if you dont teambuild with them in mind (pretty much like every other threat except 100x easier for you)...
I think many people have given well-argued answers about this, however I would like to give my two euros.
If we were to ban protean (which I think is a good idea), it would not be because of its sole offensive capabilities. Having no reliable counter (bar the niche AV regenerator Lugia), is not an issue in itself. Many common wallbreakers in other metagames only have rare walls that are only used on stall teams.
What I think makes protean ban-worthy is its ability to limit the major downside of those wallbreakers, speed. Protean King's Shield allows you not be revenge killed, while it is the main way of beating wallbreakers, that usually have mediocre speed/are weak to priority. Steel typing allows protean users to be protected from the best speed control of the metagame, -aters.
TL;DR: In my opinion, it is the ability of protean users to be a great threat to defensive pokemons while still not being too threatened by offensive ones that makes the ability ban-worthy.
About suspecting and possibly banning shedinja and imposter, I do not think that we can really come up with a conclusion simply with arguments: shedinja and imposter greatly shape the metagame (they undeniably are extremely overcentralizing), and the question is whether the community want the BH metagame to stay like it is, or not. The closest comparison would probably be Stealth Rock: the community has chosen not to ban the move, yet it greatly defines the viability of over half the mons of every single metagame (what rank would MegaZards, Volcarona, Skarmory and Lando-T be in OU without this single move?).
TL;DR: banning shedinja and imposter is a choice that has to be made about the philosophy of the meta, not because “they are too OP”. Suspecting them does not really make sense, bar simply seeing if we are having more fun without them.
You funny, Protean has no coverage moves, each move counts full.
You can do some real cool mindgames with/vs Protean.
Lets say MMY vs M-Latias, MMY can choose its coverage, while the M-Latias has to calculate/predict the movechoice.
Not to mention those win/lose predictions are very intense.
M-Diancle vs MMY;
Kings Shield win if attacked, No Kings Shield lose if Extremee Speed. Kings Shield lose if Sub/Boost, No Kings Shield win if no priority.
It mostly did, for me. I use a pair of 2. One with Soild Rock, the other with Unaware.
Basicly if the MMY does not boost he can not 2HKO the Solid Rock, if he boosts i have an Unaware.
M-Latios (SD) is far stronger than MMY. I have seen Tinted Lens Psystrike doing 70% to Aegislash.
It is the only one who can 1HKO 252/252+ Giratina 100% of time without ability boost or move restrictions.
Protean is not used that much at all, im listing and will post the data soon.
Chansey is not unique, Shedinja is.
Reason being Chansey only outclasses other Imposter pokes while Shedinja has unique typing and HP.
i just want to throw out a few things about your post,
about the mindgames, your technically incorrect about m-diancie vs mmy, it would technically go:
Kings Shield win if attacked, No Kings Shield lose if Extremee Speed. kings shield win if used turn before espeed hit,Kings Shield lose if Sub/Boost, Kings Shield win if no priority and no boost.
as both protean mm2y sets commonly run coverage that ohkos diancie, its just a matter if diancie runs boosting or not. which isnt a 100% win for it too.
252 SpA Spooky Plate Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 246-289 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and obvious ep ohko is obvious for other proteans.
your point would work better for rayquaza, as that can live standard protean spooktwo, and more commonly runs boosting/sub.just a small nitpick.
and just because protean isn't used much, doesn't mean it doesn't leave a huge impact when it IS used.
and by chansey is unique i meant imposter and not chansey specificly :P mistake on my part.
Not to mention those win/lose predictions are very intense.
M-Diancle vs MMY;
Kings Shield win if attacked, No Kings Shield lose if Extremee Speed. Kings Shield lose if Sub/Boost, No Kings Shield win if no priority.
The protean vs -ate matchup is definitely favorable towards the protean user as it requires less prediction on the protean side and more outplay/preparation on the -ate side. All protean needs is ks while the -ate needs to have either spore/sub/boosting move to be able to even have a chance at it (and even then you need to get the predictions right to win as the -ate). Whether the protean gets attacked or not during ks is irrelevant since the protean user maintains steel typing until the next move which means that even if the -ate doesn't attack during ks, if they use espeed on the next turn they would not kill the protean user as they are still steel type. So out of the 4 scenarios you mentioned, -ate can possibly only win 1 of them and thats not even a 100% chance. The other 3 go to the protean user. This is why I also believe protean is one of the only offensive checks to -ate users.
I think Protean should be suspected, as the Mega Mewtwo forms (the main users of this ability) have been around for 2 years, and the metagame has developed since then, adapted to their presences, but both forms need different responses. I also think running both forms on one team is nearly impossible to stop, as you can break past pretty much any check to one form with the other. On top of this, there's no opportunity cost to running it, because STAB on every move basically increases both attacking stats by 50%, so you can literally run King's Shield and three high-Base power moves and hit really hard. But I'd say No Ban as the Mega Mewtwo forms are kind of frail, have problems with Impostor Chansey, and are checked by Sturdinja.
I think Protean should be suspected, as the Mega Mewtwo forms (the main users of this ability) have been around for 2 years, and the metagame has developed since then, adapted to their presences, but both forms need different responses. I also think running both forms on one team is nearly impossible to stop, as you can break past pretty much any check to one form with the other. On top of this, there's no opportunity cost to running it, because STAB on every move basically increases both attacking stats by 50%, so you can literally run King's Shield and three high-Base power moves and hit really hard. But I'd say No Ban as the Mega Mewtwo forms are checked by Sturdinja.
First off the suspect is already happening. Second, Shed is a shaky check to both forms as Magma Storm and pivot moves are fairly common. Third, Shed is easy to remove with team support such as Moldy Pursuit and hazards. Fourth one single check does not make anything not broken lol.
Honestly, protean shouldn't exist at all. It makes greninja, that has a wide range of attacks that can deal damage. In balanced hackmons, any pokemon can have protean, and any pokemon can use any move, and you never can plan for a pokemon properly with protean around
"b) usually done better elsewhere" Not really. MG Diancie needs its 4 moveslots (LoR, HJK, Flare Blitz, Head Smash) if it wants to reliably beat Ho-Oh + Regi + Slowbro + Aegi + Venusaur and still fails to deal with the quite common flash fire Aegislash, Protean can deal with all of them including ff Aegi AND have STAB priority AND still have a free moveslot for like king's Shield or something and if you think having a free moveslot isn't a big deal than... idk dude, think again. Meanwhile it's still way easier to imposterproof (Gira, Grass type, Fur coat mon...). Neither gale wing Ray or Prankster Ray are anywhere near being a decent lure to aerilate Ray and unless it's clicking superpower on the Ttar switch, contrary doesn't do nearly enough immediate damage to just kill the Ray answer. That MMY + Gengar is from a team I ran which used Yveltal as imposterproofing. That MMX loses to the most common Ho-Oh set (magic guard) and the most common giratina set (Ph) while struggling to deal with slowbros and I don't see how straight up OHKOing all of them after rocks would be considered "not dealing with it very well" by any stretch. Not to mention it's still an extremely good set on its own.
It doesn't need flare blitz at all lol.
0 Atk Life Orb Mega Diancie Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 199-234 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. It can then run either that free slot, and being walled by fur coat is a lot worse than being walled by FF aegi, especially since you deal 34-48 depending on the Aegislash.
Gale wings, Contrary, and prankster rays are great lures, idk what you mean there. Clicking CC isn't really needed either, because 252 SpA Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal. Admittedly FF steels do switch in to MRay if it doens't click Superpower, except
+2 252 SpA Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Registeel: 190-224 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
they aren't staying in. All three of those also hit imposter's (unlike your set) which is sweet as those can switch in on Aerilate ray. If I need to elaborate more just ask, but I think I said it pretty well.
How in the world does it struggle to deal with non magic bounce slowbros? I suppose they might get lucky with a burn, but with knock off you only need 1 3 turn sleep and they flat out lose, ntm that every 2 turn sleep has them losing health. PH tina does wall if its already poisoned, which isn't that unreasonable at all, but that doesn't make blizzard MMX anything other than complete shit (ntm that it still isn't a guaranteed ohko)
I mean you could theatrically run something else but there's absolutely no reason to since protean is just better 90% of the time. I think you're underestimating the effect of having a STAB on what is essentially a coverage move.
That's not even mentioning the purely stallbreaking protean sets, have fun switching in a STAB lo boosted v-create from a base 190 atk and then finding another switchin for play rough. Mixed protean ray sets. Mixed protean ray sets with cc-Tarrows / pixie judgement / boomburst / bolt strike for example have close to 0 reliable switchins and aren't even particularly reliant on predicts to net kills.
252+ Atk Choice Band Protean Mega Mewtwo X Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 206-246 (40.9 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I get this point, but this isn't a symptom of protean, it's a symptom of BH having a million stalbreakers.
For instance, this is a thing: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I mean, yes PH tina can switch in if max spd, but it just takes one spacial rend to change that up. I'd use Char-Y because of its higher spa, but at least flash fire is viable. Stallbreaking protean is a waste of a protean slot (and this is even wallable with your own chansey, since they wont have choice specs).
Since getting passed a newly discovered counter is as simple as changing a slot, protean can also adapt to the new counters way faster than new counters can be found. My Ho-Oh already got destroyed by psystrike a bunch of times on the ladder and I wouldn't even be surprised if ppl started running spiky shield again if scarf garchomp becomes a thing. Also MMY could beat chansey easily if nubs stopped running secret sword and ran like cc or focus blast but I feel like I've already said that before.
When you see a pokemon you can relatively know what can switch in based on its stab moves but with protean you have absolutely no idea since it literally turns a pokemon into a completely different one.
I'm just quoting that because it's a great summary of some of the points that were made. Being able to OHKO fat mons with neutral coverage is something that only protean can do.
What. First off, protean doesn't have coverage lol; that's like saying that Frosttom's boltbeam is coverage.
Secondly, every protean set has a counter. It might not have the same counters, but every set I've seen is walled by at least one set on a good stall team. There are easily a dozen mons for which that isn't true, so that's not really a good argument. Protean does have the major advantage of badly injuring offense as well, but there isn't a mon B ranked or higher that has a guaranteed counter for all its sets.
Finally, protean desn't really change what the mon is. MMY will always be a special attacker, Deoxys-A will be frail AF regardless of what type it is, Mega Latios will walways be a middling fast nuke... they do play differently depending on the types run, but its the difference between Diancie and MRay rather than PDon vs Maggron
Sheddy and Imposter aren't broken by BH standards for multiple reasons. We talked about them in depth over and over and over again. I suggest you revisit some of the arguments. Flint even explains in the op how Imposter and Shed fails to meet BH's ban criteria. So the premise of your question isn't even valid. There is no precedent in BH of letting broken check broken. As for the question itself Protean isn't enough of a hindrance to -ate to justify the brokeness it brings into BH. King's Shield itself is a much bigger hindrance to -ate and King's Shield is good on non-protean sets and can still check -ate without it.
^ Basically this. As much as I like protean, keeping it in to check ate is a terrible reason to keep it. If ate gets banned because protean was banned and protean was the only thing saving it, then -ate needs to go too. It's that simple.
Honestly, protean shouldn't exist at all. It makes greninja, that has a wide range of attacks that can deal damage. In balanced hackmons, any pokemon can have protean, and any pokemon can use any move, and you never can plan for a pokemon properly with protean around
I'm writing this to get it off my chest, mostly, so feel free to tear it apart. That being said, here are my thoughts on protean, laid out in a reasonably clear and comprehensive manner. For a lot of this I'll be sticking with MMY, as it is hands down the best protean mon, but most of it is applicable to the other users.
First off, protean can only really be considered for the broken type of ban- it isn't rng based and is actually trying to win, so it isn't uncompetitive. It isn't overcentralizing, as its answers aren't bad by themselves in any way, nor is it overly difficult to build without. This is pretty obvious, so I'm sure you all knew this, but I want to establish that that's the only argument on this I'm dealing with. That being said, lets look at the criteria for an ablity ban:
The power to set nearly any ability that a 'mon would prefer almost ideally, is the second most defining and important property of BH, so I will go through it next. Most of the logic will be similar to the above. An Ability should be considered for ban if:
It can either provide an inherent skill that is so good that it can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset. This is true with Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard, which can work on offensive and defensive Pokemon alike, and as Classic Hackmons have proven, can be run on any Pokemon, be it an LC mon or Rayquaza-Mega
Or the ability can so augment the capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question would be difficult or impossible to check or counter. This is similar to the last point on Pokemon ban above, but it is an important distinction, since this implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. Pure Power/Huge Power and Parental Bond fall into this category
The first one is, again, an obvious no. Protean can only be run on specific mons- notably, those with an at least passable speed tier (>100) with (a) good attacking stat(s). If you try and run it on chansey it will suck, despite both chansey and protean being great.
The second, however, is a much closer thing. With 7 moves, protean mons kill literally everything in the tier, and with 4 they make a pretty good go at it. However, the moveset still matters. Only 1 set can beat imposter reliably (SP judgement), only one beats Shedinja (Magma Storm), and a few moves are each specifically required for a given threat, like Sludge Wave for Maudino and Psystrike for Ho-Oh. The nuetral coverage isn't that important either bar for dark types, making it only really good for Boomburst, Spooky judgement, and SE hits. Otherwise, Tinted Lens Psystrike hits just as hard, esp when you consider how its only 1 move needed. If you need to hit every bulky mon SE, that isn't a broken attacker.
As it happens, however, that isn't all protean does. Not only does it give a 50% boost to nonstab moves, it also changes your type. This allows for a bunch of neat tricks, like Kings sheilding to avoid ate or ghost judgementing to kill imposter. To me, this is where the real pro-ban argument lies- Changing types is really freaking amazing. To me, it still doesn't add up to enough for a ban, but if there is something I'm misunderstanding please let me know,
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 214-253 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Blade: 283-335 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 247-292 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 351-413 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2hkos virtually every bulky mon in BH besides Chansey and Shedinja
however, if you hit it with a koff, this happens
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 308-364 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Also, you know that its not PH/goggles and its probably not mbounce, so putting it to sleep neuters it.
That MMY was reason i stopped, It can choose its move to 1HKO plus immunity.
I could swear 80% of Protean use Earth Judgement right now.
The stuff which annoyed me the most were Poison healers with Will o Wisp,
How can you beat them with 62,5% recovery per turn + status immume ?
252+ SpA Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zekrom: 197-232 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Even with a team full of electric types you have no Aerilite switch in.
Just play something weaker so you can judge the strong stuff better.
Obviously Zekrom is kinda weak, but managed to peak ~1425 before dropping back to ~1325.
During my regular play i lost to a dude with 6 M-Rays.
I always hated the gen6 basepower nerfs of many moves. And when they made Boomburst.
Even with Draco Meteor being 160 base power i think Boomburst would have still been better.
It puts all other signature moves to shame.
In this post I'm a pretty big jerk, so please don't take it personally Bp Scrub- I know that you aren't an idiot, but your post really really got on my nerves. General statements that are incorrect are a huge pet peeve of mine, and the way you made your post didn't help matters.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 214-253 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Blade: 283-335 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 247-292 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 351-413 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2hkos virtually every bulky mon in BH besides Chansey and Shedinja
All outside of levitate steels, chansey (any, even imposter), shedinja, PH Ho-Oh, a roll vs regirock,
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Regirock in Sand: 166-198 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO
Sand TTar (uncommon but used for other things too), some anti-ate soundproofs, and some pranksters like Cresselia if you predict properly? Yes, it has power, but that isn't the achievement to hit in bh- the achievement in bh is to beat chansey (special) or fur coat (giratina/audino) physical. Why would I use something that KOs most mons with 4 moves when I can have 1 that KOs all of them with 2? The main draw here of MMY is role compression- it's a decent wall breaker, a decent anti offense mon, and an emergency ate check. If this was MMys only set, it'd be an a- threat. This isn't even giving useful information, really- you just gave some calcs, without context, of how MMY beats a few certain mons. It's like the specs hoopa argument in ou, except replace all with most and unwallable with hard to switch into. BH is, from the op, a broken metagame- our job is to keep it fun to play.
however, if you hit it with a koff, this happens
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 308-364 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Also, you know that its not PH/goggles and its probably not mbounce, so putting it to sleep neuters it.
I'm enthralled, really. Remind me of how a mon with a 140 bp stab lo boosted attack coming off 194 special attack just failed to be able to guarenteedly 2hko a partially invested neutral wall at the equivalent of -1, for some of its possible abilities?
Which one are you talking about here? It applies to both, and your wording is ambiguous. I assume you meant Chansey, but stall is also worlds more likely to carry heal bell than offense, or have a dedicated sleep absorber. Even then, its both not a guarantee (requires a 3 turn sleep and some lucky rolls)- and is screwed the moment they reveal one of prankster, mbounce, or regenerator.
Yes, shed can be pursuit trapped, but that doesn't make being walled by it much less terrible. Every time you bring in MMY, you face the fact that you give them momentum- they can bring shed and have you not switch, giving them control of what happens. They can not bring shed in and have you switch, giving them a free turn. They can predict you MB gar switch and bing in, say, their own pursuit trapper to take it out and let them switch shed with impunity. They can fall for the trap, and exchange mons- not a bad trade for you, but still suboptimal. I mean, sure they just lost a wall, but what kind of stall doesn't run Chansey?
tl;dr: op because it shits on offense as well as a lot of stall mons
hm, thought this was already mentioned in this thread but I just checked and guess not
It's not just that it 2hkos all of those defensive mons, its that it does that while also decimating standard offensive mons. Sure, specs Rayquaza might get the same or more 2hkos and probably even OHKO a couple of them, being locked into +0 Boomburst along with a base 115 speed means that it be revenged easily.
Assuming standard sets:
- Rayquaza
Aerilate is beaten by Protean King's Shield
Gale Wings can predict and set up sub or tail glow. If Sub, Mewtwo takes paltry damage and OHKOs back with Boomburst. If Tail Glow, Mewtwo will take more damage but still easily avoid the OHKO thanks to KS and again OHKO back
- Mewtwo X
Dies if it King's Shields, dies if it doesnt
- Gengar
Dies to EP
- Diancie
KS + Earth Power wins again
- Tyranitar
Generally, don't think I see Sucker + Shift Gear together. If its PH (Shift Gear), Moonblast OHKOS, if its some other kind with Sucker, KS helps you avoid live and OHKO back with a Moonblast
- Groudon
Standard Groudon falls to Earth Power/Boomburst
- Dialga
Falls to EP
- Latios
Loses without HP investment, wins most of the time vs Mewtwo if max HP
- Latias
Beats Mewtwo the majority of the time unless rocks are up.
- Zam/Deo-A
Not really sure what sets these 2 run, I'm gonna assume its the same as MM2Y
Standardish Spooky Plate + Secret Sword loses if Mewtwo used any move except Boomburst/King's Shield, wins if Mewtwo hasn't used a move yet or used a move that makes it weak to Fighting
LO + coverage moves will beat Mewtwo
- Regigigas/Slaking
Slaking is OHKOed by Boomburst, Regi has around a 30% chance to survive a Boomburst, but has to deal with KS 50/50s.
The amount of mons it beats is insane; theres virtually nothing else like this. The ones that will beat Mewtwo fall to other things - Lati@s are comparably slow which means revenge killed, Garchomp has to predict right w/ scarf, and even KS won't save Deoxys or Zam from being espeeded to death.
tl;dr: op because it shits on offense as well as a lot of stall mons
hm, thought this was already mentioned in this thread but I just checked and guess not
It's not just that it 2hkos all of those defensive mons, its that it does that while also decimating standard offensive mons. Sure, specs Rayquaza might get the same or more 2hkos and probably even OHKO a couple of them, being locked into +0 Boomburst along with a base 115 speed means that it be revenged easily.
Assuming standard sets:
- Rayquaza
Aerilate is beaten by Protean King's Shield
Gale Wings can predict and set up sub or tail glow. If Sub, Mewtwo takes paltry damage and OHKOs back with Boomburst. If Tail Glow, Mewtwo will take more damage but still easily avoid the OHKO thanks to KS and again OHKO back
- Mewtwo X
Dies if it King's Shields, dies if it doesnt
- Gengar
Dies to EP
- Diancie
KS + Earth Power wins again
- Tyranitar
Generally, don't think I see Sucker + Shift Gear together. If its PH (Shift Gear), Moonblast OHKOS, if its some other kind with Sucker, KS helps you avoid live and OHKO back with a Moonblast
- Groudon
Standard Groudon falls to Earth Power/Boomburst
- Dialga
Falls to EP
- Latios
Loses without HP investment, wins most of the time vs Mewtwo if max HP
- Latias
Beats Mewtwo the majority of the time unless rocks are up.
- Zam/Deo-A
Not really sure what sets these 2 run, I'm gonna assume its the same as MM2Y
Standardish Spooky Plate + Secret Sword loses if Mewtwo used any move except Boomburst/King's Shield, wins if Mewtwo hasn't used a move yet or used a move that makes it weak to Fighting
LO + coverage moves will beat Mewtwo
- Regigigas/Slaking
Slaking is OHKOed by Boomburst, Regi has around a 30% chance to survive a Boomburst, but has to deal with KS 50/50s.
The amount of mons it beats is insane; theres virtually nothing else like this. The ones that will beat Mewtwo fall to other things - Lati@s are comparably slow which means revenge killed, Garchomp has to predict right w/ scarf, and even KS won't save Deoxys or Zam from being espeeded to death.
Bleh why does no one ever know what decimate means? MMY doesn't decimate anything unless it's at like -6 smh.
As far as the rest goes, both Malakazam and deoxys-a win. Deo-a runs a sash set with 4 attacks, and Malakazam are usually designed to beat MMY.
Vs TTar, that requires you to know their set (sucker wins if you don't expect it, shift gear wins if you do expect sucker).
Other thN that, though, I'm just sort of seeing this as you missing the point. It beats a lot of offense and stall, but not enough of either.
Checking:
For the S Ranks, it beats 1, ties one, loses to one, and beats most sets used by one.
For a+, it beats most sets for 2 (not sash MGar, which is common but reliant on full hp and a lack of rocks and worse than spooky plate, non-anti-MMY mmx sets) and has a roll vs physdef giratina
For a, beats non-levitate/prankster registeel+Aegislash, can beat TTar as outlined above, beats PDon and Maudino.
For a-, beats 2, loses to 2
Countering:
For the S ranks, it counters 0 of them
It counters 0 a+ ranks
It counters 1 a rank, if maudino doesn't carry a pivot move
It counters 1 a- rank
Being countered:
Is countered by 1 s rank
Is countered by 0 a+ ranks
Is countered by certain sets on 2 a ranks
Is countered by 1 a- rank
That, to me, isn't anywhere near banworthy- it has power, but requires significant (2/3 mons) to avoid being hardwalled by some common mons, and has all of 2 switchin opportunities (1 if pivot moves are included in countering). That doesn't scream banworthy to me, at all. Now obviously there are some other MMY sets, but if that was/is the MMY set to use, banning Protean is just stupid.
Bleh why does no one ever know what decimate means? MMY doesn't decimate anything unless it's at like -6 smh.
As far as the rest goes, both Malakazam and deoxys-a win. Deo-a runs a sash set with 4 attacks, and Malakazam are usually designed to beat MMY.
Vs TTar, that requires you to know their set (sucker wins if you don't expect it, shift gear wins if you do expect sucker).
Other thN that, though, I'm just sort of seeing this as you missing the point. It beats a lot of offense and stall, but not enough of either.
Checking:
For the S Ranks, it beats 1, ties one, loses to one, and beats most sets used by one.
For a+, it beats most sets for 2 (not sash MGar, which is common but reliant on full hp and a lack of rocks and worse than spooky plate, non-anti-MMY mmx sets) and has a roll vs physdef giratina
For a, beats non-levitate/prankster registeel+Aegislash, can beat TTar as outlined above, beats PDon and Maudino.
For a-, beats 2, loses to 2
Countering:
For the S ranks, it counters 0 of them
It counters 0 a+ ranks
It counters 1 a rank, if maudino doesn't carry a pivot move
It counters 1 a- rank
Being countered:
Is countered by 1 s rank
Is countered by 0 a+ ranks
Is countered by certain sets on 2 a ranks
Is countered by 1 a- rank
That, to me, isn't anywhere near banworthy- it has power, but requires significant (2/3 mons) to avoid being hardwalled by some common mons, and has all of 2 switchin opportunities (1 if pivot moves are included in countering). That doesn't scream banworthy to me, at all. Now obviously there are some other MMY sets, but if that was/is the MMY set to use, banning Protean is just stupid.
just to point out: a counter to X is pokemon that can safely and reliably switch into any of X's attack. otherwise, it is a check.
MMY is not a defensive pokemon. It is not supposed to counter anything. Lando-I in OU hardly counters anything, yet is definitely ban worthy. I am not sure if talking about 1v1 matchup is even relevant, but there is litterally no S or A rank that can safely switch into Protean MMY if you do not know the set(chansey is beaten by spooky judgment, shedinja by magma storm).
MMY is extremely unpredictable, as judgment, moonblast, secret sword, boomburst, magma storm all have over 25% usage. "there are some other sets" is specifically (one of) the issue.
You cannot say that protean MMY is not broken because it is not a counter to anything, when a counter is a defensive notion. Yes, MMY cannot switch into offensive threats, but it is definitely extremely hard to switch into once it has entered the field. And it is definitely not hard to pivot into, considering giratina, aegislash, shedinja, audino and others common pivots all tend to carry a uturn-like.
In addition, even if there was good walls to Protean, the question, is not only to live MMY's hit,but also to hurt it back. And protean is immune to the main form of revenge killing that is fakespeed. Having your only answer to MMY be completely passive breaks all form of momentum on your side, showing how protean restricts offense, and how it force you to be passive.
Finally, saying people are stupid because, duh, MMY does not decimate team so it is balanced, duh, doesnt seem like a good argument to me. gothitelle never decimated anything in OU, yet deserved its ban. duh.
just to point out: a counter to X is pokemon that can safely and reliably switch into any of X's attack. otherwise, it is a check.
MMY is not a defensive pokemon. It is not supposed to counter anything. Lando-I in OU hardly counters anything, yet is definitely ban worthy. I am not sure if talking about 1v1 matchup is even relevant, but there is litterally no S or A rank that can safely switch into Protean MMY if you do not know the set(chansey is beaten by spooky judgment, shedinja by magma storm).
MMY is extremely unpredictable, as judgment, moonblast, secret sword, boomburst, magma storm all have over 25% usage. "there are some other sets" is specifically (one of) the issue.
You cannot say that protean MMY is not broken because it is not a counter to anything, when a counter is a defensive notion. Yes, MMY cannot switch into offensive threats, but it is definitely extremely hard to switch into once it has entered the field. And it is definitely not hard to pivot into, considering giratina, aegislash, shedinja, audino and others common pivots all tend to carry a uturn-like.
In addition, even if there was good walls to Protean, the question, is not only to live MMY's hit,but also to hurt it back. And protean is immune to the main form of revenge killing that is fakespeed. Having your only answer to MMY be completely passive breaks all form of momentum on your side, showing how protean restricts offense, and how it force you to be passive.
Finally, saying people are stupid because, duh, MMY does not decimate team so it is balanced, duh, doesnt seem like a good argument to me. gothitelle never decimated anything in OU, yet deserved its ban. duh.
Lando-I in ou countered a ton of things, like heatran, klefki, non-hp ice magnezone, skarmory... that's neither here nor there, though, so that's all I'll say.
As for switch in safely on all sets, that's true for literally every pokemon in bh. Name me one MMX counter, or one MRay counter, or one latios counter, or one diancie counter, or even a giratina counter... they don't exist. The best you can get is beating the 5/6 most common sets as long as you don't get majorly outpredicted/haxed, which fc chans does to MMY just fine. Those 5 moves (plus KS)? All beaten 100% of the time by that guy; 252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 252-296 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after magma storm damage. It can recover it off, throw in a metal burst or two, and just flat out win. Its not just those that counter MMY, though- MMY will always be beaten by either imposter chansey or shedinja. You can bring in your chansey, scout their set, and immediately either KO or switch out to your now assured wall.
Not being able to counter things is also pretty huge, as it restricts MMY from being used on bulky offense. Of course, it can switch in one some things, as I posted- it has a very respectable special defense, allowing is to take on most non-qd special attacker such as Dialga or Xerneas.
By saying MMY doesn't decimate teams I was saying that they were underselling it, because decimate means "to destroy one tenth of". I crossed it out because it wasn't very relevant to the conversation at hand, as you can see in my post. Can you also please stop being so condescending? It adds nothing, especially since a) this is a serious discussion thread and b) you aren't adding much to the topic at hand.
Lando-I in ou countered a ton of things, like heatran, klefki, non-hp ice magnezone, skarmory... that's neither here nor there, though, so that's all I'll say.
As for switch in safely on all sets, that's true for literally every pokemon in bh. Name me one MMX counter, or one MRay counter, or one latios counter, or one diancie counter, or even a giratina counter... they don't exist. The best you can get is beating the 5/6 most common sets as long as you don't get majorly outpredicted/haxed, which fc chans does to MMY just fine. Those 5 moves (plus KS)? All beaten 100% of the time by that guy; 252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 252-296 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after magma storm damage. It can recover it off, throw in a metal burst or two, and just flat out win. Its not just those that counter MMY, though- MMY will always be beaten by either imposter chansey or shedinja. You can bring in your chansey, scout their set, and immediately either KO or switch out to your now assured wall.
Not being able to counter things is also pretty huge, as it restricts MMY from being used on bulky offense. Of course, it can switch in one some things, as I posted- it has a very respectable special defense, allowing is to take on most non-qd special attacker such as Dialga or Xerneas.
By saying MMY doesn't decimate teams I was saying that they were underselling it, because decimate means "to destroy one tenth of". I crossed it out because it wasn't very relevant to the conversation at hand, as you can see in my post. Can you also please stop being so condescending? It adds nothing, especially since a) this is a serious discussion thread and b) you aren't adding much to the topic at hand.
Considering you started youre post by "why does none know" and finished it by "stupid", i was somewhat irritated, because you did what I called being condescending(also, when you say that I am condescending, then say "hey, this is a serious thread"). Also LO secret sword does 2hko fur coat chansey, while spooky plate beats imposter.(thus neither can switch into it)
I am fully aware that is is a serious discussion thread, which is why i find strange to say that MMY is bad because it doesnt counter anything. because you mean checking (offensive mons extremely rarely "counter" anything, even latios for keldeo). And because not countering anything isnt a problem per se, even on bulky offense(MRay doesnt counter anything as far as i know). Also, countering a defensive mon means neutering it, which you dont unless you can bounce/defog for example. A wall, a counter and a check are different things.
About finding counters to MMY, the issue is that, while things like MRay MMX and diancie have extremely reliable switch in such as tytar, giratina and chansey respectively, with the sole five moves i mentionned, MMY litterally 2hkoes the entire metagame. And those are not uncommon while, for instance, MDiancie needs spore (2% usage) to break chansey, and its the most used moves that allows it.
Finally, it is extremely difficult to find good revenge killers to Protean MMY, which is an issue you did not address. Mega Zam is quite subpar outside of this role, and chansey is easily pressured. Even if MMY had some counters, it would not mean its balanced. Lando-I and Mega lucario have good switch ins in OU. But forcing you to run them (thus overcentralizing the metagame) still makes them ban worthy. spooky judgment MMY is able to 6-0 would-be offensive builds, as those tend to only carry chansey as their soft check to everything. You are assuming that it is normal to have a chansey AND a dedicated wall to protean, while it is to me quite a proof of overcentralization and teambuilding limitation.
Banning protean would allow more offensive builds to shine, which is something i consider positive. The issue with protean is not only its ability to pressure defensive builds, but also to, yes, decimate offensive builds.
Considering you started youre post by "why does none know" and finished it by "stupid", i was somewhat irritated, because you did what I called being condescending(also, when you say that I am condescending, then say "hey, this is a serious thread"). Also LO secret sword does 2hko fur coat chansey, while spooky plate beats imposter.(thus neither can switch into it)
I am fully aware that is is a serious discussion thread, which is why i find strange to say that MMY is bad because it doesnt counter anything. because you mean checking (offensive mons extremely rarely "counter" anything, even latios for keldeo). And because not countering anything isnt a problem per se, even on bulky offense(MRay doesnt counter anything as far as i know). Also, countering a defensive mon means neutering it, which you dont unless you can bounce/defog for example. A wall, a counter and a check are different things.
Will you please not put words in my mouth? It's obnoxious and an unethical debating technique. I did not, in fact, mean checking, and in fact many offensive mons do counter things. Xerneas, for instance, counters Yveltal, Arceus dark, and zekrom; Aegislash counters Xerneas; ray quash counters PDon... In ou, we have things like talonflame countering Scizor/ferro and Mega Diancie countering Sableye. It isn't even an uncommon state of affairs in bh, and I even noted that MMY still does counter some things. Not even once did I call MMY bad (it's on 7/10 of my teams, for goodness sake), either.
Please also stop asserting falsehoods as fact- countering a wall does in fact mean beating it, MRay does counter some things like MGar (252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 240-283 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and not countering things is a problem because it's one more thing you need team support for. Depending on the mon it might not be a crippling problem(like if it was true for MMY it wouldn't be), but it's a problem nonetheless as it makes it less splashable.
About finding counters to MMY, the issue is that, while things like MRay MMX and diancie have extremely reliable switch in such as tytar, giratina and chansey respectively, with the sole five moves i mentionned, MMY litterally 2hkoes the entire metagame. And those are not uncommon while, for instance, MDiancie needs spore (2% usage) to break chansey, and its the most used moves that allows it.
Finally, it is extremely difficult to find good revenge killers to Protean MMY, which is an issue you did not address. Mega Zam is quite subpar outside of this role, and chansey is easily pressured. Even if MMY had some counters, it would not mean its balanced. Lando-I and Mega lucario have good switch ins in OU. But forcing you to run them (thus overcentralizing the metagame) still makes them ban worthy. spooky judgment MMY is able to 6-0 would-be offensive builds, as those tend to only carry chansey as their soft check to everything. You are assuming that it is normal to have a chansey AND a dedicated wall to protean, while it is to me quite a proof of overcentralization and teambuilding limitation.
Please don't bring usage into this (it's just an aside, and not a real detractor from your point, but) as usage=/=viability. Just because a set isn't used doesn't make it not viable, and just because everyone uses a set doesn't mean it's good. There can and will be overlap, but in general it's something to avoid.
Secondly, that's not a symptom of protean, that's a symptom of bh. Replace Protean with mold breaker, MMY with Mgar, and your moves with judgement+qd+ks+sludge bomb+secret sword and it's still true! Replace MMY with MRay, protean with aerilate and run tb+ms+espeed+ice beam+close combat and it's still true! No Pokemon has guarenteed counters for every single set they run- that's just BH. It hasn't stopped stall from being extremely successful, it hasn't stopped offense from existing, protean isn't on every team- because no matter how many mons it can beat in theory, protean is limited in what it can beat by how good you are, and in how good your opponent is. Any offense build that gets 6-0'd by spooky plate MMY is a bad team or badly haxed.
To again stretch the metaphor by comparing this to ou, Lando I had 0 counters for its sets, while MMY has 3- one that beats all sets that aren't specific creams, one that beats all that lack one coverage move, and one that walls all but incredibly niche sets and is incredibly viable besides. Heck, let's add in another- highlighter's excellent soundproof Maudino.
Banning protean would allow more offensive builds to shine, which is something i consider positive. The issue with protean is not only its ability to pressure defensive builds, but also to, yes, decimate offensive builds.
There you go again with improper word usage I just explained this smh
Just allowing offense to shine (which it already does tbh) isn't a good enough reason for a ban. This is BH- we strive for the least impact, and what is acceptable in a standard tier doesn't matter. To be blunt, protean just isn't good enough. It can only be used on certain mons, and the move choice is extremely important. Unless I'm vastly misunderstanding something(E4 Flint feel free/please do to correct me if I am), it has to be able to be basically uncounterable no matter which protean mon and no matter which usable moves are picked.
Will you please not put words in my mouth? It's obnoxious and an unethical debating technique. I did not, in fact, mean checking, and in fact many offensive mons do counter things. Xerneas, for instance, counters Yveltal, Arceus dark, and zekrom; Aegislash counters Xerneas; ray quash counters PDon... In ou, we have things like talonflame countering Scizor/ferro and Mega Diancie countering Sableye. It isn't even an uncommon state of affairs in bh, and I even noted that MMY still does counter some things. Not even once did I call MMY bad (it's on 7/10 of my teams, for goodness sake), either.
Please also stop asserting falsehoods as fact- countering a wall does in fact mean beating it, MRay does counter some things like mgar (252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 240-283 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and not countering things is a problem because it's one more thing you need team support for. Depending on the monl it might not bea crippling problem(like if it was true for MMY it wouldn't be), but it's a problem nonetheless as it makes it less splashable.
Please don't bring usage into this (it's just an aside, and not a real detractor from your point, but) as usage=/=viability. Just because a set isn't used doesn't make it not viable, and just because everyone uses a set doesn't mean it's good. There can and will be overlap, but in general it's something to avoid.
Secondly, that's not a symptom of protean, that's a symptom of bh. Replace Protean with mold breaker, MMY with Mgar, and your moves with judgement+qd+ks+sludge bomb+secret sword and it's still true! Replace MMY with MRay, protean with aerilate and run tb+ms+espeed+ice beam+close combat and it's still true! No Pokemon has guarenteed counters for every single set they run- that's just BH. It hasn't stopped stall from being extremely successful, it hasn't stopped offense from existing, protean isn't on every team- because no matter how many mons it can beat in theory, protean is limited in what it can beat by how good you are, and in how good your opponent is. Any offense build that gets 6-0'd by spooky plate MMY is a bad team or badly haxed.
To again stretch the metaphor by comparing this to ou, Lando I had 0 counters for its sets, while MMY has 3- one that beats all sets that aren't specific creams, one that beats all that lack one coverage move, and one that walls all but incredibly niche sets and is incredibly viable besides. Heck, let's add in another- highlighter's excellent soundproof Maudino.
There you go again with improper word usage I just explained this smh
Just allowing offense to shine (which it already does tbh) isn't a good enough reason for a ban. This is BH- we strive for the least impact, and what is acceptable in a standard tier doesn't matter. To be blunt, protean just isn't good enough. It can only be used on certain mons, and the move choice is extremely important. Unless I'm vastly misunderstanding something(E4 Flint feel free/please do to correct me if I am), it has to be able to be basically uncounterable no matter which protean mon and no matter which usable moves are picked.
I am going to stop answering those, because we are both repeating the same arguments over and over again.
First off, I am sorry, but this is proving my point:you are using the word "counter" inappropriately. mRay does not counter Mega gengar. You have to be able to reliably switch into it multiple times. Countering is a purely defensive notion, that mezns you completely handle any set, and for any given time: switching into A mon when your opponent has its counter means basically giving him a free switchin into said counter
On a sidenote, there was a counter to Lando-I, Cresselia.
You are saying that usage is not important, yet it is: having a 25% chance to lose to MMY if I carry just one check to it is inacceptable, while rayquaza with close combat is extremely rare(you mit be thinking of earth power, and it leads my to my next argument). Usage also means that saying "soundproof audino counters" is not sufficient when pioison attacks on MMY are more common than soundproof on M-Audino (an extreme example of this would be that guy on YT saying unban Mega luke from ubers, volcarona checks it if it doesnt have stone edge).
I would be interested to know how protean lets offense shine, because MMY is quite impossible to revenge kill (unless you run 2/3 specific mons aka overcentralization). This is also the difference with mega gengar: king's shield forces a 50/50, it does not completely neuter -aters. And it does not protect you from oblivion rayquaza. Both of which protean ks does.
Finally, "strive for least impact" philosophy is not an uber-like conception to me (only ban extremely broken things) but simply an extension of avoiding complex bans(which is needed in a meta where everything is possible). If BH was just like uber, I doubt we would have banned parental bond or others, who do have common checks. Also, about the question of overcentralization, there is a massive difference between chansey/shedinja, for which preparing brings creativity and isnt that hard, and protean. The formers greatly shape the metagame, yet it is, as ive said before, a bit like SR: they are not over powered, and let new pokemon shine.
To me, it simply seems that protean fits the second reason as to why an ability should be banned, "the ability can so augment the capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question would be difficult or impossible to check or counter.". Protean does greatly augment the ´mon (as well demonstrated by one of the previous post), and protean is indeed both hard to counter AND to check. There is no viable revenge killer to MMY while there is to all the threats you mentionned, meaning that it is almost impossible to check.
