BH Balanced Hackmons Old Gens Hub

[okgoogle4]

he also mentioned forme clause which is what we would go forward with implementing given enough support


you're neglecting the fact that blacephalon is worse in many ways than gengar (worse bulk, worse speed, worse power, rocks weakness) and that that kyub set is much worse than the mmx set (kyub can't lure in the dragons, photon has nowhere near the same power, worse speed, rocks weakness). with forme clause you can still spam like mmx/mmy/gallade/hoopa/etc but itll be significantly worse because you'll be able to know which set is which and alternatives to the mmx/mmy have serious drawbacks.

woudn't banning shell smash (maybe even belly drum) solve 75% of this problem

 

[Storm Eagle]

Species Clause means MMY and MMX can't be used on the same team i bet that makes 85% of the community against u

Even disregarding Forme Clause, would Species Clause even have a big impact on the meta beyond that? No one uses multiple Charizards or Necrozmas. I brought up Species Clause specifically because it was more standard. However, Forme Clause has more precedent in this community. That being said, I support both Species/Forme Clause. And I've seen it generally supported by the BH community.

also take a look say this sAMple team https://pokepast.es/bdf77a2c6ff7004e and say ur team can't hold against this many boosting sweepers with one Prankster/Unaware mon

I've actually brought up that sample team in my first post and I think that is problematic. It is literally a variation of one of the teams I brought up in my last post. No, most teams actually can't hold up against that team. The team is specifically designed to beat most Pranksters and Unaware pokemon. Unaware is generally beaten through Photon Geyser/Moongeist Beam, and even ignoring that, most Unaware mons hate taking strong attacks from these mons. Yveltal is immune to Photon Geyser but it still gets 2HKOed by MMX.

252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 214-253 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

Mega Sableye is immune to both Photon/CC, but is borderline shitmon territory because despite excelling at checking MMX, it loses to just about anything else in the meta. Mega Audino and Arceus are immune to Moongeist Beam, but they lose to Normalize MGar if they are Unaware. No point in mentioning Regigigas or Slaking since they lose to Mega Gengar too if they don't already have a boost.

In two of my battle replays above, I specifically show my teams bruteforcing a Prankster Giratina. Prankster alone is not going to save you. Refrigerate MMX in that team as well as Adapt Mega Gengar will beat most typical Prankster pokemon, which are usually bulky dragons and steels.

say the clause get passed the vote and is implemented i could replace this set

I specifically brought this up in my last post, but I'll post it here to put emphasis on this point.

I still believe Species / Forme Clause is warranted despite that fact. However, I've also came upon another conclusion in recent months. I don't think species spam is solely to blame here. I voted to ban Shell Smash, but no one who voted DNB ever brought up the point of spamming Shell Smash. Not just a Shell Smash abuser, several of them. Teams reliant on Shell Smash do not need to care about improofing. You lose one mon to Imposter, but then they end up trading another mon in turn as they either KO or force out Chansey due to Focus Sash/Spectral Thief. MMX being weak to Ghost means it's easy to either rk or play mindgames. Species spam is not weak to Imposter if played right for that reason, and that's not factoring in improofed sets. But that doesn't stop someone from setting up teams with a similar playstyle. Having a team that's consistent of, for example, MMX/MMY/MGar/MDiancie/MChomp/Red Orb Groudon with half or more having Shell Smash in a Forme Clause meta is hardly an improvement overall and I predict this will continue to be a problem. If Shell Smash spam continues to reign supreme on ladder, I would recommend revisiting the topic of Shell Smash as a whole.

woudn't banning shell smash (maybe even belly drum) solve 75% of this problem

There was just a suspect test on Shell Smash which resulted in DNB. Now, I have my personal problems with that given it was only DNB by a single vote and multiple of the voter registration posts presented some pretty stupid DNB arguments (e.g. "i didn't see Shell Smash much", "Focus Sash is broken", "Setup has so many checks...") but if Shell Smash remains problematic, especially if teams have 3+ abusers, I'll bring it up again in the future. For now I think Forme Clause will help make it somewhat more manageable. How much more so remains to be seen.

 

[cityscapes]

the sm bh council has unanimously decided to add forme clause to the gen 7 bh ruleset. this is due to not only reasons given by storm eagle above (scouting simply not working as a mechanic, threat stacking, slower mons/teams just getting run over) but also due to the extreme pervasiveness of the strategy on ladder. i mean this is just ridiculous:

the council felt that species spam's ability to force the game to go at a certain pace (when playing against it, going for constant fast trades and hoping you don't get lucked is by far the most effective strategy) basically negated the majority of strategies. even though species spam isn't the strongest, it doesn't allow the opponent to shape the game at all: they're pretty much playing the species spam player's game from preview, instead of using their own team's unique strategies to gain an advantage.

we felt that this goes against the nature of sm bh as a very expansive and diverse meta, and made the game objectively worse, especially for ladder play.

tagging Kris to implement this

edit: this is literally

 

[Storm Eagle]

It's been almost two weeks, and I just wanted to comment on things. I know this thread doesn't get a lot of activity, but in recent weeks I feel like the quality of Gen 7 BH has spiked. I'm still seeing a lot of HO, but that HO isn't anywhere nearly as up the wall as species spam teams were. I know that some people were disappointed to lose some of their teams but I really feel like this action was for the best. I lost a few of my own teams as well once this went through. Gen 7 BH has seen some HO as I said, but has improved somewhat in the past few weeks. Whether smash spam still ends up being a problem down the line, I don't know. But I think the addition of Forme Clause has been a positive impact. The ladder has been way less volatile as a result and there aren't half a dozen people competing for the top spot using a team with multiple Mewtwos at any given time any more.

I don't have to build teams with obnoxious amounts of setup checks to the detriment of the team vs the general metagame any more. At one point I was running Scarf Chansey and Prankster Giratina and it still wasn't enough to beat those Mewtwo/Smash spam teams. I don't feel nearly as pressured to do that and even at high ladder I am afforded a lot more freedom with my teams again.

I'll probably end up commenting in a month or so on the state of the meta if I have anything to contribute. I just wanted to say the meta has stabilized again for the most part.

random note

this doesn't look too good in retrospect lmao someone might wanna update that

 

[okgoogle4]

I made da weirdest team in da world but i wanna share it
so here is the team https://pokepast.es/9e743b9bffd9d5bd
its about flare boost U-Necroman and soundproof sableye
den i have pixxilate kartana which is kinda weird and InfoWar Blissey based of my Idol cityscapes and then i have ph zygod with Pblades inspired by my idol too


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1473522963

 

[Storm Eagle]

Hello everyone. Happy New Years. Figured I'd post an update on things. The meta has definitely improved and most HO teams I've seen are a lot more creative and somewhat easier to handle. I've been binging Gen 7 BH lately. I peaked the ladder lately and have been trying a bunch of random teams lately. So much for a specific person who thought I wouldn't be able to peak. Oh well. Snarkiness aside, I figure I'll share some teams of mine. Of course, they aren't perfect as teambuilding isn't my strongsuit, however I figure I'll share some of my teams.

https://pokepast.es/547a37349744043f
https://pokepast.es/248a9e9c6c6d174b
https://pokepast.es/4800351894580c97

Don't think I have much to say about any of them, although the middle team is somewhat weak to Shedinja. All of them are pretty good on ladder.

It's been over a year since the last VR change. Figure I'll make some nominations for the current meta. I'm well aware some noms I'll make are extremely unpopular, but I truly believe there are some mons that warrant a higher spot, while a ton of mons are antiquated and have not seen practical use since before MRay meta... I'm aware use isn't everything, but a ton of mons are directly inferior to existing mons while offering next to nothing in turn. Either way, it'll spark some discussion which is nice.

VR nominations

Rises

B -> B+ | Gigas has always been a ladder stomper mon, except I've found it to be good at getting hazards and progressing that way. Spikes PH Gigas makes consistent progress in my games.

B -> B+ | Dialga doesn't have the same defenses as most Steel-types, but is amazing with paraspam. Both defensively (Nuzzle) and offensively (Doom Desire). Paraspam has been rising in both generations of BH.

B- -> B+/A- | Triage Celesteela can win games rather easily against those who are unprepared and is self-improof.

B- -> B/B+ | Solgaleo is underrated. It is annoying as FUCK for most ladder players to beat. Short of V-create, RegenVest Solgaleo dies to damn near nothing and can spread paralysis. It can force out an enormous catalog of mons and gain momentum easily. It is incredibly easy to get progress with.

C -> A-/A | Why is this in C. Seriously. This is the single most underrated mon in the meta, significantly more so than Solgaleo. It requires a fair amount of support, and it's true that most mons that outspeed it can beat it, but there is absolutely nothing that can wall it with Tinted Lens. Anything it 2HKOes runs min speed which Mega Blaziken conveniently outspeeds at -1 (Base 90s and lower). While it isn't terribly bulky, that's not to say it can't take a hit and OHKO in return. I feel like people expect too much from Blaziken and that lead to its current reputation, but when you get any momentum with it, it will get a KO, end of story. In a metagame with a lot of paralysis and a lack of Primordial Sea/Flash Fire, it's also significantly scarier. But it doesn't even need paralysis to be a wincon as it can eliminate walls with ease. It utterly shreds stall and balance which warrants its A rank.

C -> B-/B | Triage isn't as niche in this current metagame. MCY is actually quite decent against all but HO teams.

(Rock) UR -> D | Makes a decent MCY improof. I tried it based on someone's recommendation and it surprisingly wasn't terrible.

C -> B- | Surprisingly decent FC wall. Not much else to it.

(Steel) D -> C/B- | Not really gimmicky. One of the teams I used to peak ladder had Arc-Steel. It has a surprisingly strong Corkscrew Crash (Z-Doom Desire), is self-improof, beats normgar, and beats a healthy amount of setup. It can fulfill some other niches should Doom Desire or Spectral Thief not be appealing, like Defogging or setting hazards.

Drops

A+ -> A/A- | Pdon is overrated. I'm well aware this is going to be super unpopular, but I said it. Groudon is damn near unwallable, except it gets very few opportunities to sweep most teams. It's a mon that looks easy to use until the enemy has a Giratina or Imposter. Then Groudon suddenly becomes useless. That isn't an exaggeration, it straight up contributes nothing to the battle. It's not great at setting hazards in my experience. It's oddly passive when you try to spread status with it. The Anchor/V-create/Bolt Strike/Morning Sun set is just mediocre overall, despite being self-improofed. Setup Groudon risks being reverse-swept since it's impossible to improof.

Yet Groudon sucks at improofing anything else so it hardly synergizes with most teams. Most Fairy-types do too much damage or need to carry Ground-type coverage. Most MMX sets deal too much damage to Groudon as well. Groudon can't run Ground STAB if it wants Primal Kyogre to improof. You could improof a Nuzzle user, but that Nuzzle user would have to be passive as Groudon doesn't like getting hit by Core Enforcer or really any passive coverage, meanwhile RegenVest users gain momentum off you if they don't run Volt Switch. Either you have to sacrifice Groudon's moveset to not autolose to Imposter, or you end up running dogshit sets that have zero synergy with the team overall like PrimSea Celesteela to use Groudon. You could of course use Shedinja to try and Improof Groudon, but most players rather wouldn't since you need hazards clear before even bringing in Groudon.

I would probably suggest it be ranked lower, but I know other players would definitely not approve of that. I say this all as someone who was known to be reliant on Groudon for most of Generation 7 and made a few sets like Smash Ptrip don. Groudon is just not as good any more, and I find myself more often regretting using it in place of something else.

A+ -> A | Don't think the current meta is friendly to Shed, more teams are running hazards due to Sash Smashers being common. It's not significantly worse, but I wouldn't rate it "A+" currently. It's a solid A, maybe A- worst case scenario.

B+ -> B/B- | Idk, I just found Mega Garchomp to be considerably mediocre enough that it struggles to find a place in the current meta. Even despite parahax being common. It sits in an awkward speed tier, yet it isn't particularly great offensively. It has a god-tier STAB combo, except most of the problems people accuse Blaziken of having, Mchomp actually struggles with. Its STAB attacks are way weaker than V-create from Blaziken. While Mega Garchomp hits a ton of stuff super-effectively, I found it too difficult and awkward to use. Being a Dragon-type, it has a lot more weaknesses than Blaziken. I keep comparing Mchomp to Blaziken because both serve nearly identical roles. Except Blaziken is better in almost everything but pure stats. Precipice Blades is unreliable, so it needs to run dual Ground STAB to reliably get KOes. It can force switches rather easily, except it fares about as well as red orb Groudon when it comes to being walled. It just gets shit on by Xerneas, especially if it runs recovery. Mchomp dislikes going up against anything that outspeeds it. Except in a faster metagame, it's very alienated. It made sense to use in a slower metagame with multiple various bulky Dragons and Steels on a stereotypical balance team. Especially when most of the remaining mons it can't even consistently OHKO without Precipice Blades.

B+ -> B/B- | I haven't seen a single person who likes Registeel recently. Once a formidable wall, it seems to be perceived as a passive momentum sink these days. It makes a decent Prankster, except if there's a good reason to use any other Pokemon in its place, that is usually a good idea over using Registeel.

B -> B- | I feel like Mega Aerodactyl was a cool mon when MAMP first brought it up, but using it lately, it has just been consistently disappointing. It beats MMY, non-Smash MMX, and MGengar, except it either struggles against bulky Dragons or is hard to improof should you carry coverage for them. Mega Slowbro is an option.. but then you're using two offbeat pokemon. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's a heavy commitment to using Mega Aerodactyl which I'm not exactly keen on these days.

B -> B- | Ho-Oh is extremely rare on ladder, and I just don't see much use for it. It isn't particularly strong compared to other Fire-types. As a Magic Bouncer, it's gimmicky vs alternatives like Giratina. It's not great at spreading status, and often loses momentum. It feels like a mon that only really exists for being a not-terrible improof to certain sets.

(Not Imp) B- -> C/D | Using it, now I understand why cityscapes talked shit on this mon on discord. Useless momentum sink. The ladder has advanced past using passive improofs for most of their mons.

C -> D | There is almost no reason to use Deoxys-A. At all. There is nothing Deoxys can do that Mewtwo can't already do. The fact that it isn't even used in a meta with a ton of setup should speak volumes of how useful it is. I would nom it for UR except I'm sure some people will find a reason to keep it on the VR.

C -> UR | Ferrothorn is a fucking turd. End of story. It doesn't belong on the VR due to it being the single most passive Steel-type. It's somehow even worse than Registeel in that regard. It is exclusively used for improofing very specific mons, except it isn't even good at that. If Ferrothorn is your answer to improofing Red Orb Groudon, pick a different mon. Ferrothorn is a mon that often had so much role compression on it that it ended up losing momentum every single time it came in, since it rarely ran a pivoting move unlike Registeel. Even if it did, it'd still largely be worse than Registeel. On top of this, it just isn't used on ladder outside of ladder teams from 2018 or so. It hasn't been used since ladder stopped using passive improofs for their mons.

C -> D | It's not awful... but it's completely unused, and even in 2020 it was a stretch to say it had much usage. It made for a niche improof, except it often just exists in games... It barely contributes to much in games that I see it used.

D -> UR | Magg sounds like a theorymon these days. Not even joking. Arceus-Steel is similar but straight up better, and Mega Steelix actually has a niche unlike it. I struggle to see a reason to even use Mega Aggron for any reason.

D -> UR | A mon that struggles to get KOes and is 4x weak to U-turn. Hoopa-Unbound was considered a shitmon for years, and its reputation eventually came back to haunt it. Now ladder has completely forgotten about it. It isn't even good at setup since it's worse than both Mewtwo and Yveltal respectively.

D -> UR | Luke is a mon that just never caught on. Last it was even mentioned in OM Discord, besides some theorymonning, was a Choice Band Steelworker set from MRay meta, which evidently wasn't terribly good since it just ended up being a worse Kartana for most.

D -> UR | Legends say that among the catalog of Generation 7 BH Pokemon, Mega Sceptile was once one of its ranks. However, I am unable to verify this, and it is currently a myth as it stands. Mega Sceptile doesn't consistently beat most of the Pokemon it outspeeds which makes it very suspect. But it self-improofs!! Yeah this mon feels pointless. It can set up, except it loses to most priority and isn't the strongest of pokemon. Any RegenVest will usually invalidate that set up. And any form of setup makes it crumble in return. Why use it over Mega Beedrill or Aerodactyl if you need something that outspeeds Mega Mewtwo Y. Setup isn't exactly appealing on a frail mon that's weak to U-turn. It also just doesn't exist anywhere on ladder outside of low ladder meme teams.

D -> UR | This is a nom I'm slightly unsure with, but FF Mega Venusaur does sound and play like a relic of the past. It barely feels better than Ferrothorn, but I feel like its Poison typing could serve a niche over Ferro.

What do you guys think? Got any opinions of the current meta or teams to share?

 

[anaconja]

i was originally gonna post this as an rmt but im not feeling it for some reason:

good team

As of now, the metagame seems to be filled with a lot of setup spam (currently two ladder heroes as well as the entirety of low to mid ladder are just putting Shell Smash on everything) so I thought up a very funny anti-meta archetype:
OOPS! ALL THIEF

Teambuilding Process

The first team has unfortunately been lost so here is the second version of the original:


Basically I wanted to try out Triage Celesteela but was worried about its kinda lacking bulk and TOWER OF POWER seemed perfect for the job, covering things like fire move MMY.


PH utility Xerneas fits really well here, providing a solid switchin to fat dragons and other Core Enforcer spammers, as well as taking advantage of dual screens to just spam thief when the opponent tries to set up. also Moonblast + Spectral Thief hits like all ghosts besides Shedinja so its pretty easy to spin.


Since no mon on the team currently switches into Shedinja, I added Magic Bounce Giratina to wall shed until I get some safe turns to set Celesteela up since it beats Shedinja. But I didn't like the passiveness of usual sets and was inspired by cityscapes' one rain team that had Shell Smash Giratina-O so I put it here. Notable that dual screens helps facilitate smash.


The other mons I kinda threw on cause they looked kinda cool. I figured if Imposter transforms into Arceus (in practice this never really happened) I would need to remove screens from the opponent's side so I went with Psychic Fangs MMX, with the UNFUNNY VOLCANO MAN style to set spikes without fearing Magic Bounce too much while preventing Imposter from doing the same. Slaking beats specs -ate Diancie which would have been very annoying to play against.


I had a slight variant where I replaced Slaking with Kyogre cause under screens it walls -ate pretty well while providing stuff like an ice resist and more setup counterplay. I also changed Xerneas to an offensive set for some reason, maybe to hit Kyogre and Ho-oh? Not sure but this team has no hazard removal so that sucks.


I came back to the team about 3 months later once Forme Clause was implemented. I figured that PDon was a good midground against physical threats while checking Diancie well. Gengar-Mega is just kinda there I don't exactly know why.


Finally I got the bright idea of just having everyone be Spectral Thief to punish prevent almost all setup. I replaced Gengar with Regigigas because it's much bulkier and to chunk stuff like Xerneas/Kyogre pretty effortlessly.

TOWER OF POWER (Arceus-Psychic) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Recover
(credit to cityscapes for the set)
On first glance this set looks very unappealing, having no attacks at all. However, due to Arceus's great bulk and dual screens this mon sits there, lives a whole lot of hits, and spams screens for its teammates. Having a total of 144 PP (why does Reflect have less PP than Light Screen) means you PP stall a lot of Gengar-Megas and a couple MMY sets which is just incredible.


how (Celesteela) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Quiet / Modest Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Spectral Thief
- Tail Glow
- Leech Seed
Triage Celesteela is another deceptively good set (a full analysis is here). The mon just doesn't die and it spams Leech Seed and Oblivion Wing to eventually overcome a team. Spectral Thief was originally done for the meme but it actually works very well because it baits the opponent into thinking it's a defensive set and helps you beat Imposter 1v1.


how (Xerneas) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Spectral Thief
- Baneful Bunker
- Rapid Spin
PH Spectral Thief Xerneas is a great switchin to most MMXs. You take maybe 80% from +2 Photon Geysers and just steal the boosts while taking very manageable damage from other non-setup forms. As I said earlier, Moonblast and Spectral Thief hit most Ghost-types (basically only Shedinja walls you) so you can spin fairly easily.


how (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Shell Smash
This is a fairly standard Magic Bounce Giratina set but it's Origin form and has Shell Smash instead of pivoting. Most of the time you'll be spamming core + thief, but when the time is right you can click smash instead and take the opponent by surprise and KO something. If Imposter switches in when dual screens isn't up switching into Xerneas/Arceus and clicking Spectral Thief/Haze should work fine.


how (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Spectral Thief
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp
Fujiyama Volcano (funny volcano man) but with Spectral Thief instead of Stealth Rock. This makes it slightly harder to play against when Imposter switches in, as you have to click Strength Sap a couple times and then switch into Giratina but otherwise a great midground for most physical attackers.


how (Regigigas) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Spectral Thief
- Dragon Dance
- Spikes
The hazard setter. Other than against the occasional Magic Bounce steel, this mon is great at setting Spikes. Under dual screens it's also a really good switchin to mons like Kyogre, Xerneas (it 1v1s Strength Sap QD Xern which is great), and most other non-Normal PH setup users like Yveltal and MMY. Other than that it's a very standard PH Regi set.

A weakness of the team is probably the lack of pivoting just because it's so difficult to fit - you could theoretically make Giratina Altered Forme with U-turn but that's cringe Shell Smash really helps you be proactive against more offensive teams.

reactions to noms

B -> B+ | Gigas has always been a ladder stomper mon, except I've found it to be good at getting hazards and progressing that way. Spikes PH Gigas makes consistent progress in my games.

agree, def would say its better than kyub

B -> B+ | Dialga doesn't have the same defenses as most Steel-types, but is amazing with paraspam. Both defensively (Nuzzle) and offensively (Doom Desire). Paraspam has been rising in both generations of BH.

i dont think paraspam is anything near prevalent enough to warrant a raise (havent seen it once besides this one 1300s guy who doesnt even use nuzzle dialga). i think it is fine where it is right now

B- -> B+/A- | Triage Celesteela can win games rather easily against those who are unprepared and is self-improof.

id say b or b+ is good, it still requires certain specific team support and is not really splashable enough to warrant a-

B- -> B/B+ | Solgaleo is underrated. It is annoying as FUCK for most ladder players to beat. Short of V-create, RegenVest Solgaleo dies to damn near nothing and can spread paralysis. It can force out an enormous catalog of mons and gain momentum easily. It is incredibly easy to get progress with.

solgaleo is super passive like registeel despite its much higher attack, if i really wanted to use a regenvest steel (ive never found the reason to) i dont know why i wouldnt run registeel for the lower speed and ghost neutrality so i dont take like 87 minimum from specs gar

C -> A-/A | Why is this in C. Seriously. This is the single most underrated mon in the meta, significantly more so than Solgaleo. It requires a fair amount of support, and it's true that most mons that outspeed it can beat it, but there is absolutely nothing that can wall it with Tinted Lens. Anything it 2HKOes runs min speed which Mega Blaziken conveniently outspeeds at -1 (Base 90s and lower). While it isn't terribly bulky, that's not to say it can't take a hit and OHKO in return. I feel like people expect too much from Blaziken and that lead to its current reputation, but when you get any momentum with it, it will get a KO, end of story. In a metagame with a lot of paralysis and a lack of Primordial Sea/Flash Fire, it's also significantly scarier. But it doesn't even need paralysis to be a wincon as it can eliminate walls with ease. It utterly shreds stall and balance which warrants its A rank.

id say b max - a rank implies you can fit it on most teams and you said yourself it requires significant team support. its a big threat to balance but stall uses stuff like shed/flash fire/prankster dragons which significantly decrease its offensive presence in that matchup.

C -> B-/B | Triage isn't as niche in this current metagame. MCY is actually quite decent against all but HO teams.

(Rock) UR -> D | Makes a decent MCY improof. I tried it based on someone's recommendation and it surprisingly wasn't terrible.

C -> B- | Surprisingly decent FC wall. Not much else to it.

(Steel) D -> C/B- | Not really gimmicky. One of the teams I used to peak ladder had Arc-Steel. It has a surprisingly strong Corkscrew Crash (Z-Doom Desire), is self-improof, beats normgar, and beats a healthy amount of setup. It can fulfill some other niches should Doom Desire or Spectral Thief not be appealing, like Defogging or setting hazards.

agree

A+ -> A/A- | Pdon is overrated. I'm well aware this is going to be super unpopular, but I said it. Groudon is damn near unwallable, except it gets very few opportunities to sweep most teams. It's a mon that looks easy to use until the enemy has a Giratina or Imposter. Then Groudon suddenly becomes useless. That isn't an exaggeration, it straight up contributes nothing to the battle. It's not great at setting hazards in my experience. It's oddly passive when you try to spread status with it. The Anchor/V-create/Bolt Strike/Morning Sun set is just mediocre overall, despite being self-improofed. Setup Groudon risks being reverse-swept since it's impossible to improof.

Yet Groudon sucks at improofing anything else so it hardly synergizes with most teams. Most Fairy-types do too much damage or need to carry Ground-type coverage. Most MMX sets deal too much damage to Groudon as well. Groudon can't run Ground STAB if it wants Primal Kyogre to improof. You could improof a Nuzzle user, but that Nuzzle user would have to be passive as Groudon doesn't like getting hit by Core Enforcer or really any passive coverage, meanwhile RegenVest users gain momentum off you if they don't run Volt Switch. Either you have to sacrifice Groudon's moveset to not autolose to Imposter, or you end up running dogshit sets that have zero synergy with the team overall like PrimSea Celesteela to use Groudon. You could of course use Shedinja to try and Improof Groudon, but most players rather wouldn't since you need hazards clear before even bringing in Groudon.

I would probably suggest it be ranked lower, but I know other players would definitely not approve of that. I say this all as someone who was known to be reliant on Groudon for most of Generation 7 and made a few sets like Smash Ptrip don. Groudon is just not as good any more, and I find myself more often regretting using it in place of something else.

you lost me on this one. setup groudon is a bad set (except on veil teams) and offensive utility sets (funny volcano man) are the best sets right now. if you run an actual improof (mbounce dragon or water with sap pdon) imposter should not be an issue, and while opposing mbounce giratinas/zygs are hard checks pdon still contributes by forcing them in allowing you to double into your dragon beater.

pdon is not a great improofer but thats not one of its roles (though it can improof ogre and other defensive waters well). its role is a fat physical midground that can set rocks well, can do a lot of damage, and has various good matchups like xern, kyub, regigigas, dialga, etc.

A+ -> A | Don't think the current meta is friendly to Shed, more teams are running hazards due to Sash Smashers being common. It's not significantly worse, but I wouldn't rate it "A+" currently. It's a solid A, maybe A- worst case scenario.

dont know how i feel about this one but id think that to match up well vs offense hazard setters would have to be more bulky, making them easier to beat using mbounce on shed teams

B+ -> B/B- | Idk, I just found Mega Garchomp to be considerably mediocre enough that it struggles to find a place in the current meta. Even despite parahax being common. It sits in an awkward speed tier, yet it isn't particularly great offensively. It has a god-tier STAB combo, except most of the problems people accuse Blaziken of having, Mchomp actually struggles with. Its STAB attacks are way weaker than V-create from Blaziken. While Mega Garchomp hits a ton of stuff super-effectively, I found it too difficult and awkward to use. Being a Dragon-type, it has a lot more weaknesses than Blaziken. I keep comparing Mchomp to Blaziken because both serve nearly identical roles. Except Blaziken is better in almost everything but pure stats. Precipice Blades is unreliable, so it needs to run dual Ground STAB to reliably get KOes. It can force switches rather easily, except it fares about as well as red orb Groudon when it comes to being walled. It just gets shit on by Xerneas, especially if it runs recovery. Mchomp dislikes going up against anything that outspeeds it. Except in a faster metagame, it's very alienated. It made sense to use in a slower metagame with multiple various bulky Dragons and Steels on a stereotypical balance team. Especially when most of the remaining mons it can't even consistently OHKO without Precipice Blades.

agree, but i think that blaziken and garchomp are about the same (which is why i think blaziken fits in b tier). unlike blaziken garchomp actually threatens prankster dragons, and theoretically it is also impossible to wall due to dragon hammer + pblades + tarrows hitting a lot of mons supereffectively (which offsets its bp decrease compared to vcreate)

B -> B- | Ho-Oh is extremely rare on ladder, and I just don't see much use for it. It isn't particularly strong compared to other Fire-types. As a Magic Bouncer, it's gimmicky vs alternatives like Giratina. It's not great at spreading status, and often loses momentum. It feels like a mon that only really exists for being a not-terrible improof to certain sets.

these are some weird takes. the only other good bulky fire is groudon who has a ground weakness and only average special bulk. mbounce is fantastic against like all xerneas sets right now so idk how you can call it gimmicky. ive been using regenvest hooh as a special blanket check sometimes and its pretty good at gaining momentum, and i dont think youve explored offensive hooh sets like mglo or offensive aerilate. i also dont know when bh suddenly turned into a status spreading competition because i sure havent faced any status spam teams in the past 3 months

D -> UR | This is a nom I'm slightly unsure with, but FF Mega Venusaur does sound and play like a relic of the past. It barely feels better than Ferrothorn, but I feel like its Poison typing could serve a niche over Ferro.

this mon can probably be explored more. having a lot of useful resists and stab sludge bomb means it has a lot of potential. ive occasionally tried using triage venusaur from city's teamdump to questionable results

B+ -> B/B- | I haven't seen a single person who likes Registeel recently. Once a formidable wall, it seems to be perceived as a passive momentum sink these days. It makes a decent Prankster, except if there's a good reason to use any other Pokemon in its place, that is usually a good idea over using Registeel.

B -> B- | I feel like Mega Aerodactyl was a cool mon when MAMP first brought it up, but using it lately, it has just been consistently disappointing. It beats MMY, non-Smash MMX, and MGengar, except it either struggles against bulky Dragons or is hard to improof should you carry coverage for them. Mega Slowbro is an option.. but then you're using two offbeat pokemon. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's a heavy commitment to using Mega Aerodactyl which I'm not exactly keen on these days.

(Not Imp) B- -> C/D | Using it, now I understand why cityscapes talked shit on this mon on discord. Useless momentum sink. The ladder has advanced past using passive improofs for most of their mons.

C -> UR | Ferrothorn is a fucking turd. End of story. It doesn't belong on the VR due to it being the single most passive Steel-type. It's somehow even worse than Registeel in that regard. It is exclusively used for improofing very specific mons, except it isn't even good at that. If Ferrothorn is your answer to improofing Red Orb Groudon, pick a different mon. Ferrothorn is a mon that often had so much role compression on it that it ended up losing momentum every single time it came in, since it rarely ran a pivoting move unlike Registeel. Even if it did, it'd still largely be worse than Registeel. On top of this, it just isn't used on ladder outside of ladder teams from 2018 or so. It hasn't been used since ladder stopped using passive improofs for their mons.

D -> UR | Magg sounds like a theorymon these days. Not even joking. Arceus-Steel is similar but straight up better, and Mega Steelix actually has a niche unlike it. I struggle to see a reason to even use Mega Aggron for any reason.

D -> UR | A mon that struggles to get KOes and is 4x weak to U-turn. Hoopa-Unbound was considered a shitmon for years, and its reputation eventually came back to haunt it. Now ladder has completely forgotten about it. It isn't even good at setup since it's worse than both Mewtwo and Yveltal respectively.

D -> UR | Luke is a mon that just never caught on. Last it was even mentioned in OM Discord, besides some theorymonning, was a Choice Band Steelworker set from MRay meta, which evidently wasn't terribly good since it just ended up being a worse Kartana for most.

D -> UR | Legends say that among the catalog of Generation 7 BH Pokemon, Mega Sceptile was once one of its ranks. However, I am unable to verify this, and it is currently a myth as it stands. Mega Sceptile doesn't beat consistently most of the Pokemon it outspeeds which makes it very suspect. But it self-improofs!! Yeah this mon feels pointless. It can set up, except it loses to most priority and isn't the strongest of pokemon. Any RegenVest will usually invalidate that set up. And any form of setup makes it crumble in return. Why use it over Mega Beedrill or Aerodactyl if you need something that outspeeds Mega Mewtwo Y. Setup isn't exactly appealing on a frail mon that's weak to U-turn. It also just doesn't exist anywhere on ladder outside of low ladder meme teams.

agree

C -> D | It's not awful... but it's completely unused, and even in 2020 it was a stretch to say it had much usage. It made for a niche improof, except it often just exists in games... It barely contributes to much in games that I see it used.

throw it to ur imo, doesnt distinguish itself from aggron enough

my own noms:
victini to d, maybe c: its like darmz but its spectral thieves and uturns actually hit mmy. ive been using a pheal set and its pretty good at checking mmx and mmy

gira-o to c: its still fat like gira but its core enforcers bite more. pheal is good utility on bulky offense teams since it uses glare/nuzzle pretty well

yveltal to b+: mon feels pretty lacking right now with gengar mega falling in usage and xerneas and mixed mmy rising. triage sets are decent but are checked pretty well by the aforementioned xern and also ogre so they don't really justify a- to me

 

[Storm Eagle]

response to quotes

solgaleo is super passive like registeel despite its much higher attack, if i really wanted to use a regenvest steel (ive never found the reason to) i dont know why i wouldnt run registeel for the lower speed and ghost neutrality so i dont take like 87 minimum from specs gar

I mean Registeel gets 2HKOed by Specs Gar as well (Secret Sword hurts). Solgaleo and Registeel are both pretty different in practice. Solgaleo isn't weak to Fighting and can take a hit from most physical attackers as well since it has more bulk than Registeel. I use Solgaleo to improof Mega Mewtwo Y and it can improof Diancie (both Pixilate and MG, although Pixilate I run Close Combat over PBlades) reasonably well. Even if it had to go up 1v1 against Mega Gengar, if Solgaleo hits a Nuzzle on it, it has effectively won the matchup since Gengar becomes significantly less threatening afterwards and Solgaleo can regenerate HP over the course of the battle.

The main reason I was so impressed with it was because it didn't die nearly as fast as other Steel-types and was a constant pain in the ass for other ladder players. I don't think Solgaleo is necessarily passive if it doesn't want to be. Knock Off is a good move choice for it. I recall seeing Metal Burst used on it to a good extent because of its high base HP although its a dated move choice. Beak Blast also works. My Solgaleo set is passive though because its main niche is hazard removal and paraspamming. I just found Solgaleo to be a pretty great pivot overall and doesn't lose momentum nearly as much as the Steel-types I nommed down. It doesn't necessarily need to run RegenVest though. I've seen high ladder players use it as a respectable Fur Coat wall not unlike Mega Scizor. That enables it to run Anchor Shot. Although I prefer RegenVest.

id say b max - a rank implies you can fit it on most teams and you said yourself it requires significant team support. its a big threat to balance but stall uses stuff like shed/flash fire/prankster dragons which significantly decrease its offensive presence in that matchup.

I'd say it deserves a B+ rank at least. I beat a Shed Stall team with it because I had Sunsteel Strike on Mega Blaziken. Using Mega Blaziken with Mega Diancie or Xerneas makes a great core specifically for those Prankster Dragons. I haven't seen Flash Fire recently tho.

agree, but i think that blaziken and garchomp are about the same (which is why i think blaziken fits in b tier). unlike blaziken garchomp actually threatens prankster dragons, and theoretically it is also impossible to wall due to dragon hammer + pblades + tarrows hitting a lot of mons supereffectively (which offsets its bp decrease compared to vcreate)

I've had a team that uses a Mold Breaker MChomp with Hammer/Blades/Arrows/Pursuit and it felt very dated and easy to check in the current meta. Mega Blaziken's type has more relevant resists (it's obviously not bulky with 80/80/80 bulk, but a lot more stuff stands to risk being OHKOed should they stay in and attack Blaziken) meanwhile Mega Garchomp is forced out very easily due to a multitude of common weaknesses. Mega Blaziken's speed lets it outspeed unboosted Xerneas as well as Kyurem. Another thing is that Precipice Blades is far less accurate than V-create which is another reason I nommed Mega Garchomp down and Blaziken up. Mega Garchomp is generally higher risk than Blaziken, but higher reward. But since Blaziken tends to be more braindead and low risk, I'd say it's better than Mega Garchomp.

you lost me on this one. setup groudon is a bad set (except on veil teams) and offensive utility sets (funny volcano man) are the best sets right now. if you run an actual improof (mbounce dragon or water with sap pdon) imposter should not be an issue, and while opposing mbounce giratinas/zygs are hard checks pdon still contributes by forcing them in allowing you to double into your dragon beater.

pdon is not a great improofer but thats not one of its roles (though it can improof ogre and other defensive waters well). its role is a fat physical midground that can set rocks well, can do a lot of damage, and has various good matchups like xern, kyub, regigigas, dialga, etc.

I tried the exact set you mentioned recently and wasn't hot on it. It was easy to improof but suffered from the same problems I mentioned. It's not great at setting hazards since most people immediately switch in bulky Dragons on Groudon, which usually carry Defog. I just didn't find it terribly useful in most of my teams. It's not great at improofing, but that's specifically the point I'm trying to make. It's very hard to fit on a team and still contribute a lot to said team. In my opinion, the fact that it's rather difficult for most players to fit on a team is one reason it should go down a rank or two. It's not really as splashable as it looks, and I've tried putting various sets--including the one you mentioned, onto most of my teams since pdon has a god tier STAB and is bulky, except it often just rarely contributes in my games. It got to the point of where most of my teams I had more success just using a different mon for a specific purpose pdon was serving (Blaziken as a Fire-type breaker, Regigigas/Diancie for hazards, Primal Kyogre if I wanted to spread burns, MMX for setup, etc.).

I think pdon is harder to use for the average player than any other A rank mon currently in the list, besides maybe Shedinja (but I also nommed that down anyways).

dont know how i feel about this one but id think that to match up well vs offense hazard setters would have to be more bulky, making them easier to beat using mbounce on shed teams

I've seen hazards used on HO, usually on mons which can beat most bulky Dragons with ease since those most commonly have Bounce. I'm not 100% sold on the nom either, but I do feel like Shed is less common and slightly easier to beat these days.

this mon can probably be explored more. having a lot of useful resists and stab sludge bomb means it has a lot of potential. ive occasionally tried using triage venusaur from city's teamdump to questionable results

Yeah you're right it might be best if we waited to see if it is worth staying in the VR.

throw it to ur imo, doesnt distinguish itself from aggron enough

I agree with this honestly. I am going to nom it for UR instead.

I'll try to give both Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh another try, although I remain firm on my opinion on Solgaleo. It is way harder for most mons to beat than most people realize and is a genuinely great pivot and reliable lead.

victini to d, maybe c:

Seems ok, it's a lot faster than Darm-Z though. Maybe set it to D for now since it does have a downside over Darm-Z specifically in its speed. If Victini gets C, then so should Darm-Z.

gira-o to c:

I agree with this.

yveltal to b+:

I also agree with this.

 

[MAMP]

sceptile doesn't deserve this, he's like the only guy in the whole tier faster than mmy that can actually threaten giratina. also the only special dragon-type breaker that doesn't get bricked by regenvest ogre without running weird shit, i find it to be a pretty helpful niche

 

[Storm Eagle]

It has been a month since the last post, I figure I'll go over some previous noms and make some new noms.

comments on old noms

B -> B+ | Gigas has always been a ladder stomper mon, except I've found it to be good at getting hazards and progressing that way. Spikes PH Gigas makes consistent progress in my games.

Honestly? I'd say Regigigas can move up to A-. Regigigas is stupid splashable and despite it being one of the best mons of the metagame for its entire existence, most of ladder still has trouble handling it. Even if you have a Giratina or Zygarde-C, that doesn't mean it can't get progress. It can still set hazards and spread status. It's also consequently the easiest to improof mon in the metagame and can often beat Imposter in battles on its own.

Somewhat unpopular opinion, I don't like tying Gigas to Slaking in the VR any more. The latter is equally strong I guess, but Slaking has lousier matchups due to its lower SpD, and I rarely feel like the higher Defense actually matters. I've tried running some different sets like Avalanche / Mirror Coat on Slaking to better take advantage of its stats, but it often just performed worse and was gimmickier in practice than Regigigas. Either way, it plays pretty differently sort of like PH Arceus. Don't think Slaking is as good of a cleaner while it makes a better bulky attacker. I've used it recently and found it performs best as a hit and run attacker since it forces in bulky Dragons and leaves an opening for Diancie, Xerneas, etc., to come in. It hits harder than Arceus does and isn't quite as passive. Both Gigas/Slaking are the same when it comes to utility. I'd still rank Slaking slightly lower than Gigas.

A+ -> A/A-

Sorry anaconja, I've still been using pdon a lot to ladder this past month and even the funny volcano man set has been disappointing. Unfortunately, bounce Dragons are very common on ladder making that set very undesirable. Other sets feel outdated or require high amounts of team support. I have not been convinced it has warranted its current spot. Most of my pdon sets are offensive utility, but they rarely actually manage to achieve much utility long term. Alright, Nuzzle pdon is pretty annoying, but if the switch-in is a bulky Dragon, the other player isn't going to be too bothered. Unlike Regigigas where hazards are relatively uncommon on it, it seems ladder and most players expect Groudon to set up hazards and play around that fact.

It's amazingly strong and being able to remove other weathers is fantastic, but man.. the metagame is extremely unfriendly to pdon because no one wants to get rolled by it. It used to be you could use just about any pdon set and you could shred half the enemy's team with it up to 1500s. Now? Even 1200s players know to have a check for pdon. The main reason I think it should move down is it very rarely accomplishes any actual progress in games. I've been using it often and trying various sets, new and old, to gauge its viability. It's hard walled by Giratina regardless of set short of like.. Fleur Cannon pdon (which is defeated by Prankster Gira), there is no set aside from shitty gimmick sets such as Anchor Shot no Ground STAB which likes Imposter coming in, and almost every single set aside from Shell Smash hates Magic Bounce Dragons. I'm going to continue experimenting with it, but I do not see my nomination changing short of a set which ends up wrecking a good portion of ladder.

Other noms:
: I change my mind on this nom. Mega Venusaur is niche, but ladder use doesn't always equate to viability.
: Same as above. I don't like questioning MAMP on Gen 7 BH when he has been better than me for the entire generation. Probably still is.
: anaconja is right don't move this down. A ton of players have difficulty handling Ho-Oh.
: Move this to UR, the more I think about it the more I dislike it. It is a worse smasher than Mega Mewtwo XY. Period.
: Still think this warrants B+, it has been putting in a lot of work for me in games defensively.
: UR

Here's some new noms after playing daily with various teams for another month.
: A -> A+ | Diancie has been performing way better than normal lately, I partially attribute that to less Primordial Sea steels letting it run amok with V-create. It is one of the most splashable mons in the meta and has multiple sets which are all extremely hard to handle until scouted. The classic Pixilate set still exists, but is no longer concerned about Primsea/FF since ladder stopped running those as often. Specs Pixilate is a set that's been used a lot by other Smogon users including myself, and manages to get a frightening number of OHKOes/2HKOes on stuff that regular Pixilate 3HKOes. Magic Guard has always been somewhat gimmicky, but lately it's been fucking terrifying on ladder. Almost nothing wants to deal with strong mixed attackers, and Diancie is one of the few that can accomplish that, the others being Mewtwo, Xerneas, and I suppose pdon (but it more often than not doesn't use its SpA). Priority, large set variety, being a strong mixed attacker all warrant it being A+.

: B- -> B | Bee feels pretty strong atm especially with MMY gaining so much prominence. It can threaten that as well as Diancie, Xerneas, Shedinja, and a whole lot more as its moveset is very versatile. Weakness to rocks prevents it from being too good, but when it comes in, its either gaining momentum or getting a kill, and lately I've found it pretty good at that, and even other players have gotten a surprising amount of concessions from me in ladder battles.

: C -> B- | I still think Pheromosa is worse than Mega Beedrill. But I know other notable Gen 7 BH players have made a point that Pheromosa isn't much worse than Mega Beedrill in practice. Lack of weakness to rocks and Fighting STAB in trade for lower Attack. If Bee rises so should Phero.

: B- -> B | Aegislash's typing is very notable in that it's a Steel-type which can wall MMX and can check Shedinja. I used to always think it was a worse Registeel, but my opinion of Registeel has fell while lately I've had some successful uses with Aegislash. Idk, I'd say it's definitely better than Mega Audino and Cresselia since it has more practical, non-gimmicky uses like improofing Magic Guard Mega Diancie.

: D -> C | Improofs almost every single Mega Diancie set besides Volt Tackle Magic Guard and I feel like despite being passive, this mon can also be explored more much like Mega Venusaur. It makes for a good Prankster in my experience. It underspeeds every mon besides Mega Slowbro. It walls a surprising amount of mons and can gain momentum off them or spam scald on them. Obviously it's not quite as good as Soundproof Mega Slowbro at improofing Mega Diancie, but Toxapex can at least serve a notable role for the team unlike Soundproof Mega Slowbro, and Mega Slowbro doesn't improof Magic Guard anyways.

I don't have any additional drops, maybe I'd nom Lugia to UR, but it's a mon I'm so unfamiliar with that I don't think it's fair for me to comment on it. The meta has been pretty stable I'd say. Don't have much more to say.

 

[shadowpea]

hi. so um this is my 1k post, or, well, was supposed to be. but i was playing referee in bbp so i had to post there and this is now my 1k+1 post. anyway, i chose to put this post here because during my time at smogon and pokemon g7bh has been my favorite metagame by far. and that’s probably because it’s so easy to have fun with it whether im building or playing. i go back and forth between g7 and g8 bh whichever i feel like more, but i always stay at g7 longer simply cause there’s a larger variety of everything (and not having a base 128 speed wall to face on every other team). when building i usually don’t try anything too funky and just try to make defensive pieces click, but somehow i always end up with a huge variety of defensive mons across my teams no matter which generation i play.

i got to #2 on the (incredibly dead) ladder a couple of weeks ago with mostly 2 teams so that’s what the majority of this post’s gonna be about. they’re not great and anyone here can probably point out like 10 different weaknesses about them but this is my 1k(+1) and my #2 ladder peak so bear with me.

first team's built around city's pdon set posted a bajillion years ago that i stole. hopefully they don't feel disappointed or outraged about the kind of company i put it with. here we go:

world on fire (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- V-Create
- Solar Blade
- Ice Beam
- Synthesis

city's right tho, this thing wipes almost anything right off the face of the earth. and i found an (albeit incredibly inadaquete) improof for it. bad news is you're doing only like a third to gira, but hey you do a ton to zyg and kyogre and literally anything that don't resist fire because its still a pdon no matter which way you slice it. and it can take some hits, which might explain why i went a bit...liberal with my defensive backbone.

technocracy (Magearna-Original) @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Doom Desire
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Roost

said incredibly inadaquete improof. i am incredibly disappointed in myself that i didn't use the amazingly amazing fur coat ROCK to improof pdon but it is what it is. at least it gives fair support but mage never seems bulky enough for anything. and it cancels impostor's healing, that's nice too. it's also very nice for overloading their temporary pdon switchins if you manage to pull off doom desire + u-turn on say a registeel or smth.

looking glass (Sableye-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Haze
- Parting Shot / Strength Sap
- Shore Up

terrible, i know, but this is my improof for mmx. sap lets me have kyogre 1v1 sflo mmy assuming its not moonblast and didnt kill me already, but i usually just run part for easy pivoting. again like magearna msab is never as bulky as i need it to be, hence my selection of two supremely fat mons after this. aside from the mon chosen this is just your average prankster that has 252 atk because i get to do larger chunks to mewtwos and tina.

ultraviolet (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

your average band adapt mmx. but hey it completely rip through flash fire steels and puts nasty amounts of pressure on tina. im working on a similar build with that pdon + sflo mmy because i cant get enough of sflo mmy (and yes ROCK is pdon's improof). sableye improofs and occasionally gets cucked over by uturn damage chipping me down. see that's why sabs bad, but once in a blue moon you can call them out and stay in on the uturn to blast something else. not me though, find someone else to do it.

life on mars (Zygarde-Complete) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Thousand Waves
- U-turn / Dragon Tail
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled

unreasonably bulky mon #1. dtail's probably the better choice but i do love my slow pivoting so here's uturn. takes impostor mewtwo in a pinch, otherwise nothing much to see here.

perfect storm (Kyogre-Primal) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Def
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
Level: 99
- Scald
- Spectral Thief
- Aromatherapy
- Heal Order

unreasonably bulky mon #2. ogre pulls a lot of weight in my ladder battles but always end up dying if it doesnt outright sweep from someone's t1 stolen shell smash. i always want to carry a cleric on the ladder since the amount of paraspam is unreal, and this one is very fat + mostly status immune anyway, so i'm happy.

team paste

while i was laddering with the team above i got obliterated by specs adapt gengar. twice. so naturally after seeing such a set and getting completely dominated by it i had to make a team with it.

(bad thing about bw style sprites is that mgar's sprite gets absolutely ruined. but everything else gets better, so it's kinda ok i guess. some mons being ani and others not have always bothered me tho)

the face of god (Gengar-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Volt Switch
- Thunder

idk what exact four moves that guy ran so i just went with this. thunder beats down yveltal while also technically hitting kyogre slightly harder than your stabs but with 70% accuracy you'd just go moongeist anyway. absolutely no one runs switch-ins to this thing which is basically limited to tyranitar and chansey, ghost stab is still crazy good no matter where you are. i spend 50% of my time with this clicking moongeist and 40% with volt switch, the other moves just kinda exist. modest may screw you over against mmx but gets you important benchmarks like 2hkoing arc and ph gigas after rocks with sludge wave. (i lied i just noticed my calculator never gave gengar specs. whatever.)

cheese king (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Leftovers / Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Diamond Storm
- Rapid Spin
- Shore Up

gengar's improof. this thing is a juggernaut in every sense of the word, deals great chunks of damage and is a pain to kill. as a spinner it scares away blockers by being a dark-type and although gira doesn't take all that much from knock this team's offensive core is really hostile toward it anyway. daimond storm lets it bs through matchups like against waves zygod and also just...deals damage. knock's just good to have and this one actually does damage. goggles exist to counterlead deoxys leads combined with sand stream.

broken mask (Diancie-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Head Smash
- Light of Ruin
- Volt Tackle
- Mind Blown

i mean you can make an argument that pix diancie's the better partner for mgar but oh my god 4 attacks mglo diancie will always be my favorite set in g7bh forever. 90% of the time i just click buttons against the poor soul at the other end and kill something. doesn't pull much weight against faster offensive teams, but i have not seen a single average balanced structure on the ladder that isn't forced to sack something every time this comes in. unless of course they are a flash fire steel, or im switching this in as a sack. pixilate's probably still better, but well i play bh for fun and i love this set so i run it. and since im not the hi jump kicking demon i was last time i can run steelix as my improof. yay.

rutsborg vortex (Steelix-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Roost

(yes some of these nicknames are from battle cats, shush)
the complement to tyranitar. while tyranitar's a juggernaut that's weak to half the mons in the game steelix is an ultra-fat pivot that fears nothing. well, that's an exaggeration, but steelix is great at taking advantage of fat stuff on the opposing team and either setting rocks or pivoting on them. 614 defense is just cracked no matter which way you slice it. its also my answer to random -ate pokemon and damn it works well. anchor also does real damage, which is something.

life on mars (Zygarde-Complete) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Thousand Waves
- Haze
- Entrainment
- Heal Order

the first time i hit a ladder peak (which you will find if you look a few pages back) i ran this set and here we are again. zyg preys on poison heal mons in particular but its still a prankster and that's why its here. set's really self-explanatory, only thing is that its more passive than id like.

perfect storm (Kyogre-Primal) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Def
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
Level: 99
- Scald
- Spectral Thief
- Aromatherapy
- Heal Order

him again.

team paste

as for the ladder peak with these two teams:

gxe and glicko's embarrasing compared to the people around me as usual, but meh #2 is #2.

so yeah, that's my 1k(+1). i enjoyed and still enjoy g7bh and smogon in general. the greatest thing about bh imo is that you have practically infinite creativity on making good sets, good teams, or just stuff to kill time with and laugh at. some days i play great games by my standars while others im like "lets spam v-create with pdon and see what lives". its both a great way to have fun and get better at mons in general, as anticipating the opponent's sets, moves, and turns is crucial in bh, likely even more so than standard mons

don't post much anymore because i'm always afraid of looking like a complete idiot (bet five bucks thats just what i did up there) but if you dont know me here you might know me giving out free likes to whatever thread i chance upon.

as for why i didn't just delete a post to make this a perfect 1k:

(and i cba to look for a post where i got no likes from, or delete any post i made just to make this my 1k ironwater)

and shoutouts? uh thanks to DrumstickGaming for being my amazing (and only) friend on this site, you probably have no clue what all that above was about. good luck on your endeavors in life!

well to end this post i gotta give yall a set to build with right? given how i said that the best thing about bh is you can run p much whatever you want while having fun, right? well im bad at this game, but ill do the best i could to satisfy yall

the set

Ferrothorn @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Powder
- Haze
- Parting Shot
- Roost

now laugh

thanks for reading all that if you did. smogon's a great place filled with great people tied around a great thing (last bit's debatable). hopefully this is the last ultra long post in a long time that id make where i inevitably make a fool of myself. please give comments to the teams as always. have a nice day.

 

[Akira 153]

First smogon post, I'm here to showcase a team i used to top gen 7 BH ladder a couple weeks ago.
I'm gonna attempt to make this look nice with formatting and all but this is my first time on the forum so expect some bugs

Proof of Peak:

So here is the team:
pokepaste link

「Love Colored Magic」

The Team

Event Horizon (Gengar-Mega) (F) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Sludge Bomb
- Quiver Dance
- Strength Sap

Starlight Typhoon (Diancie-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Moongeist Beam
- Revelation Dance

Master Spark (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Sunsteel Strike

Persuasion Needle (Zygarde-Complete) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Haze
- Thousand Waves
- Defog
- Shore Up

Duplex Barrier (Dialga) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn

Fantasy Seal (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Nuzzle
- U-turn
- Shore Up
- Spiky Shield

How to use

The team's playstyle is fairly simple, you want to get dialga in as much as possible, and pivot with it to go to whatever offensive mon most fits the situation. I'll break down each mon's role.

Gengar is the team's primary cleaner, it's extremely versatile in terms of finishing off chipped opponents while not fearing imposter, it also threatens passive teams by it's ability to set up (at +1 it can 2hko every non-resist in the game besides vest ogre). It also serves utility by removing toxic spikes easily since it's usually brought in by dialga, who doesn't care about them. Last but not least, mgar can switch into any competent shed variant, you'll have to watch out for jank ladder stuff like swords dance, but mgar can live shed's spectral thief and heal back up, while fishing for poisons with sludge bomb, sludge bomb's poison also allows mgar to punish yveltal or ogre for switching in, as it can 2hko both of them with the chip.

Improof: Itself (dialga if it's extremely low (~10%) and could die to sludge bomb )

Diancie serves the purpose of breaking defensive teams with it's obscene power level, boomburst does over 40% to nearly everything, allowing even dedicated diancie checks such as ff solg to be broken with minimal chip. Moongeist beam allows you to crush shed and solg, while revelation dance erases ho-oh and does huge damage to celesteela (although boomburst is a chance to 2hko), as well as allowing diancie to threaten normgar in an emergency. Extreme speed also gives priority to hit shell smash sweepers.

Improof: Chansey

Mewtwo serves as a secondary cleaner vs offense, as well as the team's primary source of chip damage through knock off. MMX can safely serve as a lead and counters triage and fakespeed, which the team would otherwise struggle with. It consistently picks off low health opponents and, more valuably, does moderate damage to whatever tries to switch in on it, allowing the 2 breakers to get kills. Sunsteel strike can be swapped for Volt Switch if needed, which provides a little extra damage on ogre and pivoting ability, at the cost of oneshotting diancie

Improof: Zygarde

Zygarde is the team's prankhazer and also checks most groudon variants, it traps imposter very easily, scaring it out and therefore providing free switches with proper prediction. Groundium Z lets it get kills on steels that thought they could wait an extra turn to heal, as well as normgar.

Improof: Itself

Dialga is the heart of the team, providing essential support in spinning, pivoting, and core enforcer to handle regigigas. Usually, this is the mon you should bring in vs random threats such as mmy or deoxys-attack, level 99 can be run to assist with pivoting. Core enforcer prevents you from losing to Zyg-c, as you threaten to 2hko it.

Improof: Chansey

Since the team is very offensive, you won't have a check to every possible threat, chansey serves this purpose by switching in to diancie, banded MMX, and other powerful threats that don't tend to run trapping. Imposter's scouting ability is essential for an offensive team, preventing you from being surprised by immunity abilities or weird coverage. Keeping imp at high health is the biggest challenge while running this team, but if you can use it's information gathering correctly you'll get great results.
Imposter obviously serves as a check to setup sweepers, although this is risky due to speed ties, you should use zyg-c or dialga if possible.
Base chansey mostly serves to heal itself and to attempt to nuzzle opposing imposter or opposing mmx, making diancie's life a whole lot easier.

Improof: Zygarde

 

[Storm Eagle]

Hello. I believe this will be my final post for the remainder of Generation 8. As Pokemon Scarlet and Violet are approaching, we seriously need a VR update before the new generation arrives. There has not been an actual update to the VR since just before The Crown Tundra released, which is almost two years ago at this point. It was 7 months ago that I last gave nominations. I just don't think there's many competent BH players playing Gen 7 any more and at this point I don't feel like anyone short of Akira would be able to offer up nominations, and I don't even know if Akira himself is terribly interested.

So I wrote a post on this but did not finish it, had lost my progress. I'm going to make a very brief list, but will attach short explanations to each nomination I make.

old noms, see above posts for justification

Rises
A -> A+

B -> B+

B -> B+ - SEE NEW NOMS BELOW
B- -> B
B- -> B

B- -> B+/A-

C -> A-/A - SEE NEW NOMS BELOW

C -> B-/B
C -> B-

(Rock) UR -> D

C -> B-

(Steel) D -> C/B-
D -> C

Drops
A+ -> A/A-

A+ -> A

B+ -> B/B- - SEE NEW NOMS BELOW

B+ -> B/B-

B -> B-

B -> B- - SEE NEW NOMS BELOW

(base) B- -> C/D

C -> D

C -> UR

C -> D

D -> UR

D -> UR

D -> UR

D -> UR

D -> UR

Here's some new nominations that I have on top of this. First, I'll go over some previous nominations.

B -> A-
I'm going to recommend Dialga rise even further. To call Dialga a basic Steel-type or a bulky Dragon is a genuine disservice to it. Dialga is nearly impossible to OHKO by most pokemon, and it's tied for the best RegenVest in Primal Kyogre. Dialga shares a lot with Primal Kyogre in practice and I'm honestly not quite sure why they're ranked so far apart. While Dialga has lower Special Attack/Defense, it makes up for it with a simultaneously better offensive and defensive typing. Even defensive sets still deal huge damage with Core Enforcer to most pokemon, and a plethora of added resists and higher physical defense even things out with Primal Kyogre. Ladder frequently struggles to take down most of my Dialga sets and I frequently use it in my teams.
C -> B+/A-
While I think Mega Blaziken warrants a significant rise in ranking, going from C to A would be a rather large rise. It is easily the best breaker in the metagame by sheer power, surpassing even Adapt Band Mega Mewtwo X by sole virtue of STAB V-create. It has 100 base Speed which is actually fairly fast compared to most mons in this metagame, even if it doesn't outspeed Diancie or Mewtwo/Gengar.
no rank change
I've thought Garchomp to be relatively antiquated for a meta full of Shell Smash abuse, especially when it's difficult to bring in. I've came to realize that Garchomp can still take on fat balance and stall and effectively autowin if given the opportunity to set up against teams unprepared for it. It's a bit more of a matchup fish these days as it's relatively poor vs offense, but it deserves the rank it has due to how well it takes on fat balance and stall.
B -> B+
Now it might be very strange of me to suddenly change my mind from a drop to a rise. Well, having gotten experience with Ho-Oh, I've quickly came to realize how big of a mistake it was that I suggested it to drop to begin with. With Magic Bounce, it can take on a rather significant portion of the metagame and on my best team it utilizes Poison Fang and V-create, which when paired together is only walled by Primordial Sea Steel-types, which are no longer used outside of improofing in Gen 7 BH.

With that said, I have some other nominations which having played the meta constantly for years at this point that I feel reasonably confident in making now.

Rises

Spoiler

(Normal) B -> B+
If Regigigas/Slaking rises, so should Arceus. Arceus has frankly been much better in practice than I or really most players give it credit for, letting it live a surprising amount of attacks, even from boosted attackers and applying constant pressure to most teams with hazards.
B -> B+
Kanga is honestly fairly underrated at the moment but even in a more offensive metagame I still feel it lands a spot for completely eliminating anything that doesn't threaten it offensively. Strength Sap Mega Kangaskhan wasn't something used previously, but I think it is viable having used it as no Magic Bounce mon wants to be in on Kanga.
B- -> B
Mega Swampert could very easily be revisited. I think people underestimate how good its typing is offensively, and until recently was only considered for its defensive typing. I have seen successful use of it in the form of PH setup. There's likely other sets I am missing that work equally well.
D -> B (if not higher)
I genuinely don't understand why this is not higher. It is still Giratina, and it is still a mon with bulk that supercedes even Solgaleo and Lunala statwise. I've peaked ladder with a team that utilizes Mold Breaker Glare/Hex/Core/Sap Gira-O recently and there's very few things which Altered Giratina can take on that this Origin set cannot. It plays differently, but not enough to warrant a huge rank difference like this. It probably was less appealing when there were more fat passive Steels roaming around. With Gen 8 BH as well, I think everyone realized how much potential Origin Giratina has and it still does apply to Gen 7.

Drops

Spoiler

B -> UR

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-08/gen7balancedhackmons-0.txt
| 87   | Magearna           |  1.14127% | 169    |  1.141% | 130    |  1.443% |
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-08/gen7balancedhackmons-1760.txt
| 60   | Magearna           |  0.58567% | 169    |  1.141% | 130    |  1.443% |

Magearna is an unmon. When I said the ladder evolved past using bulky passive Steels, Magearna was one of them. Magearna is literally only used by one guy as evidenced by the stats for both 0/1760 being the same. Frankly I don't see it having use outside of a niche improof. This isn't Gen 8 where Magearna was a force to be reckoned with. Magearna is slow, it's bulk is honestly quite overrated by gen 7 standards, and its typing is good but no longer relevant in the grand scheme of things since it still loses to what most other Steel-types do.
B -> C | B- -> C
Dusk Mane is pretty romanticized when it comes to viability vs Solgaleo, and neither of them are particularly great. I have not seen Unburden Dusk Mane in ages, it's a one trick pony set which people just got wise to. Solgaleo is a funny mon, it's great at not dying. Except to be high in a VR, a bulky mon should have a bigger repertoire than "doesn't die". Solgaleo is hard to kill but easy to check (it's typically going to be hard countered by any Magic Bounce pokemon) and really only fits on teams as an improof and an acceptable RegenVest. It can check some Xerneas sets, but any Xerneas with V-create is going to shut down Solgaleo pretty quick and I don't even think it checks Diancie period.
B- -> C
Both of these mons suffer from the exact same problem. They are fat as fuck but completely non-threatening. I wouldn't even use these on hard stall teams due to how incredibly passive they are, and I've literally built hard stall recently for gen 7. At least with Aegislash you can excuse it due to being a Ghost-type, but even then it's still a momentum sink primarily held up by its typing. Neither Mega Audino or Cresselia have that much going for them. They are more annoying than anything else in games I play against them. They both can find extremely niche use cases but they both have the same problem as Solgaleo. They just don't get very much progress unless somehow the opponent simultaneously can't check them and doesn't have a Magic Bounce pokemon.
C -> D
While I genuinely like Ultra Necrozma, it's Dragon typing really hurts it and makes it far more difficult to use. With people using mixed Mega Mewtwo X/Y, it really begs the question of what Ultra Necrozma does that those two do not, and as a wallbreaker it is fine, but it really is hard to justify over them.
C -> D
It is even harder to justify Mega Sableye in the current metagame. It checks Mega Mewtwo X, but dies to basically any moderately powerful special attacker. Even hits from RegenVest Dialga and Primal Kyogre hurt it. If there's any mon which really fell behind in recent times, it's Mega Sableye, and I'd argue it only deserves a spot on the VR due to it being a bulky Ghost, but by no means would it be my first pick in virtually any scenario.

I'm aware I made a huge amount of nominations. And I'm also aware there will be some strong disagreement here. One question you might ask is why I nominated so many bulkier mons down. The simple fact is Gen 7 BH has gotten significantly more offensive. Shit like Ferrothorn made sense when you saw a lot of PH Spore setup sweeper wincons, but now people have advanced to having a lot more aggressive setup and a lot more Life Orb breakers these days. Primordial Sea Steel-types were common, but with middling bulk on most of them on top of them being an instant momentum sink, there was a steady mindset change with Gen 7 BH players where pretty much everyone saw decreasing value in these pokemon.

With the last set of nominations being so long ago, and even then some of those VR rankings were likely outdated at the time of being updated, there should be some major changes to reflect how the metagame generally is these days. However, I will make one counterpoint. There are very few genuinely good players on ladder. My nominations reflect the meta as I have played it, not just as other players have played against me, but also based on my own experiences. I have moved away from most of these passive pokemon myself and have found significantly more success in my laddering. Perhaps that's a red herring and there is value to be had in some of the nominations I made. In which case I trust the BH7 Council to make the correct decisions here.

As I previously stated, this will be my final post here for the generation. I believe the VR should be changed, and I don't necessarily think they should all be changed to reflect my stances on the metagame. I already know someone who would likely strongly disagree with the nominations I've made. I'm not going to pretend I'm the best Gen 7 BH player, but I do have the most experience on ladder of any player solely due to how frequently I ladder. I have made my nominations based on my experiences these past several years.