absolutley true just calling out to game freak above
also make it not 43 speed
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Discussion Awful, Terrible, No-Good Pokemon (and other stuff) Feedback Thread
- Thread starter LouisCyphre
- Start date
also make it not 43 speed
How about one more post before the anniversary update?
: This is a really cool idea that unfortunately fails to achieve success in the BBP environment. Palafin-Zero is forced into the role of a hit-and-run assassin type because the cost of sending it out early exceeds the reward of additional time with Palafin-Hero : if you don't attempt to protect Palafin, it will leave the battle with between 23-90 accumulated damage or a debilitating status condition; if you do play to preserve it, you've given your opponent two or three actions to set hazards, use stage-boosting moves, or otherwise garner an advantage against your subsequent switch-in. Even in its optimal capacity, Palafin-Hero's low stats mean it can only really effectively pick off Pokemon that are weak to Fighting- or Water-type Moves and that have ~1/5th of their HP remaining, as it must use a Pivoting effect (e.g. from Flip Turn (in a combo)) to avoid being demolished by its next opponent. Furthermore, this switch subsequently squanders the second-order advantage that a traditional revenge killer would enjoy under such circumstances. When combined with BBP's consecutive switching rules, which prevent Palafin from returning for a minimum of two rounds without making the generally suboptimal choice to use a raw Pivoting Move ordering first, these factors indicate that Palafin's mini-game is simply too slow and too difficult for such little benefit.
: Its core stats and limited Movepool hint at potential success as a late-game cleaner, but a base 30 Speed stat, an effective HP stat of 60, and a glaring hazard weakness prevent it from fulfilling this role satisfactorily.
: This is a really cool idea that unfortunately fails to achieve success in the BBP environment. Palafin-Zero is forced into the role of a hit-and-run assassin type because the cost of sending it out early exceeds the reward of additional time with Palafin-Hero : if you don't attempt to protect Palafin, it will leave the battle with between 23-90 accumulated damage or a debilitating status condition; if you do play to preserve it, you've given your opponent two or three actions to set hazards, use stage-boosting moves, or otherwise garner an advantage against your subsequent switch-in. Even in its optimal capacity, Palafin-Hero's low stats mean it can only really effectively pick off Pokemon that are weak to Fighting- or Water-type Moves and that have ~1/5th of their HP remaining, as it must use a Pivoting effect (e.g. from Flip Turn (in a combo)) to avoid being demolished by its next opponent. Furthermore, this switch subsequently squanders the second-order advantage that a traditional revenge killer would enjoy under such circumstances. When combined with BBP's consecutive switching rules, which prevent Palafin from returning for a minimum of two rounds without making the generally suboptimal choice to use a raw Pivoting Move ordering first, these factors indicate that Palafin's mini-game is simply too slow and too difficult for such little benefit.: Its core stats and limited Movepool hint at potential success as a late-game cleaner, but a base 30 Speed stat, an effective HP stat of 60, and a glaring hazard weakness prevent it from fulfilling this role satisfactorily.
Those don't exist any more. You can tell because they aren't mentioned anywhere in the handbook.
A way to buff levitate without making Hydreigon OP: Reduce the stat threshold for pokemon by 5 for each ability below the maximum (3) that they are missing. By stat threshold I mean the translation from Raw Stat to BBP Stat Ranks. For example, Hydreigon Infernape and Flygon.
Hydreigon and Flygon have 1 ability (Levitate) and Infernape has 2 Abilities (Blaze and Iron Fist).
[ HP | 105 | 75 | 105 | 75 | SPE ] - Relevant upper limit stat rank threshold
[ 76 | 104 | 71 | 104 | 71 | 108 ] - Infernape RAW
[ 90 | 7 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 108 ] - Infernape BBP
Tragically Infernape misses out on the 105 threshold by 1 point in two stats, and the 75 threshold by 4 points in 2 stats.
If the threshold is lowered by 5 points per ability less than 3, and Infernape has 2 out of 3 abilities, it turns into:
+
[HP | 100 | 70 | 100 | 70 | SPE ] 2/3 abilities, upper limit lowered (-5)
[76 | 104 | 71 | 104 | 71 | 108 ] - Infernape RAW
[90 | 8 | 6 | 8 | 6 | 108 ] - Infernape NEW
This change gives Infernape a +1 to its four core stat ranks, the highest possible buff.
Hydreigon and Flygon would have even more of a buff, just having levitate. However one benefits more than the other because of the nature of the "buff"
[ HP | 120 | 105 | 135 | 105 | SPE ] - Relevant upper limit stat rank threshold
[ 92 | 105 | 90 | 125 | 90 | 98 ] - Hydreigon RAW
[ 95 | 8 | 7 | 9 | 7 | 98 ] - Hydreigon BBP
Hydreigon is obviously already very stacked in its BBP translation, with 600 BST and hitting threshold on 3 out of 4 stats, wasting only 5 on SPA, any buff to single ability mons would have to not unleash this beast.
+
[ HP | 110 | 95 | 125 | 95 | SPE ] - 1/3 abilities, upper limit lowered (-10)
[ 92 | 105 | 90 | 125 | 90 | 98 ] - Hydreigon RAW
[ 95 | 8 | 7 | 10 | 7 | 98 ] - Hydreigon NEW
This change gives hydreigon +1 to SpA, bringing it to 10, while its other 3 core stats still fall short of the next rank.
[ HP | 105 | 90 | 90 | 90 | SPE ] - Relevant upper limit stat rank threshold
[ 80 | 100 | 80 | 80 | 80 | 100 ] - Flygon RAW
[ 90 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 100 ] - Flygon BBP
Flygon is looking mediocre, not bad but not good stat wise. Only having one ability, though it grants an immunity, is not enough to make it meta relevant. However:
+
[ HP | 95 | 80 | 80 | 80 | SPE ] - 1/3 abilities, upper limit lowered (-10)
[ 80 | 100 | 80 | 80 | 80 | 100 ] - Flygon RAW
[ 90 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 100 ] - Flygon NEW
This change is another +1 to four core stat ranks, similar to Infernape.
Abilities are very integral, and BBP is a game that tries to make all mons playable to some extent (Early Bird + Ledian). This proposition can improve some Pokemon that have only one ability, and slightly improves every starter, without breaking those on a breaking point like Hydreigon (1/3 abilities, +SpA), Garchomp (2/3 Abilities, +ATK, SPD) Tyranitar (2/3 Abilities, +ATK, SPD), Dragonite (2/3, +ATK, SPA, SPD)... ok Dragonite gets a significant buff. But so does Silvally! (1/3 Abilities, +All 4 Core Ranks)
This concludes my idea on how to buff levitate without breaking Hydreigon. Please share your thoughts.
Hydreigon and Flygon have 1 ability (Levitate) and Infernape has 2 Abilities (Blaze and Iron Fist).
[ HP | 105 | 75 | 105 | 75 | SPE ] - Relevant upper limit stat rank threshold
[ 76 | 104 | 71 | 104 | 71 | 108 ] - Infernape RAW
[ 90 | 7 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 108 ] - Infernape BBP
Tragically Infernape misses out on the 105 threshold by 1 point in two stats, and the 75 threshold by 4 points in 2 stats.
If the threshold is lowered by 5 points per ability less than 3, and Infernape has 2 out of 3 abilities, it turns into:
+[HP | 100 | 70 | 100 | 70 | SPE ] 2/3 abilities, upper limit lowered (-5)
[76 | 104 | 71 | 104 | 71 | 108 ] - Infernape RAW
[90 | 8 | 6 | 8 | 6 | 108 ] - Infernape NEW
This change gives Infernape a +1 to its four core stat ranks, the highest possible buff.
Hydreigon and Flygon would have even more of a buff, just having levitate. However one benefits more than the other because of the nature of the "buff"
[ HP | 120 | 105 | 135 | 105 | SPE ] - Relevant upper limit stat rank threshold
[ 92 | 105 | 90 | 125 | 90 | 98 ] - Hydreigon RAW
[ 95 | 8 | 7 | 9 | 7 | 98 ] - Hydreigon BBP
Hydreigon is obviously already very stacked in its BBP translation, with 600 BST and hitting threshold on 3 out of 4 stats, wasting only 5 on SPA, any buff to single ability mons would have to not unleash this beast.
+[ HP | 110 | 95 | 125 | 95 | SPE ] - 1/3 abilities, upper limit lowered (-10)
[ 92 | 105 | 90 | 125 | 90 | 98 ] - Hydreigon RAW
[ 95 | 8 | 7 | 10 | 7 | 98 ] - Hydreigon NEW
This change gives hydreigon +1 to SpA, bringing it to 10, while its other 3 core stats still fall short of the next rank.
[ HP | 105 | 90 | 90 | 90 | SPE ] - Relevant upper limit stat rank threshold
[ 80 | 100 | 80 | 80 | 80 | 100 ] - Flygon RAW
[ 90 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 100 ] - Flygon BBP
Flygon is looking mediocre, not bad but not good stat wise. Only having one ability, though it grants an immunity, is not enough to make it meta relevant. However:
+[ HP | 95 | 80 | 80 | 80 | SPE ] - 1/3 abilities, upper limit lowered (-10)
[ 80 | 100 | 80 | 80 | 80 | 100 ] - Flygon RAW
[ 90 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 100 ] - Flygon NEW
This change is another +1 to four core stat ranks, similar to Infernape.
Abilities are very integral, and BBP is a game that tries to make all mons playable to some extent (Early Bird + Ledian). This proposition can improve some Pokemon that have only one ability, and slightly improves every starter, without breaking those on a breaking point like Hydreigon (1/3 abilities, +SpA), Garchomp (2/3 Abilities, +ATK, SPD) Tyranitar (2/3 Abilities, +ATK, SPD), Dragonite (2/3, +ATK, SPA, SPD)... ok Dragonite gets a significant buff. But so does Silvally! (1/3 Abilities, +All 4 Core Ranks)
This concludes my idea on how to buff levitate without breaking Hydreigon. Please share your thoughts.
I would point out here that the Pokemon that most often have exactly one ability are legendaries. Do you really want to be unleashing box mascots with even higher stats than they natively have? For example, this change would bring Xerneas and Yveltal from 9/7/9/7 to 10/8/10/8!
Of course! My desire for Hydreigon and Vikavolt buffs in the short term outweigh any consideration of long-term detriment!
honestly could we just apply this to non legendaries only
...ah, yes, because gamefreak is always so polite as to exactly distinguish legendaries from non-legendaries for us.
Slightly more seriously, we're not introducing any amount of arbitrariness whatsoever to the stat rank cutoffs. It's a can of worms that is better left sealed tight.
Slightly more seriously, we're not introducing any amount of arbitrariness whatsoever to the stat rank cutoffs. It's a can of worms that is better left sealed tight.
What is 10/8/10/8 doing to Xerneas that pushes it over an edge? Maybe this will change along with the experience I gain in this game, but such a minor change on an already great Pokemon is worth it for the bar to raise on other more commonly used and easily attainable pokemon.
However, Beast Boost moms go crazy and maybe there could be "ability exceptions" like Beast Boost or Protosynthesis. Or, the buffs could not push anything above 10 (RIP 11 SpA Vikavolt).
And I want to emphasize how this buffs just about every starter, which is just fun and tickles the nostalgia.
However, Beast Boost moms go crazy and maybe there could be "ability exceptions" like Beast Boost or Protosynthesis. Or, the buffs could not push anything above 10 (RIP 11 SpA Vikavolt).
And I want to emphasize how this buffs just about every starter, which is just fun and tickles the nostalgia.
you're asking for multiple overlapping, slippery-slope rules to burden players with so that flygon and infernape can continue to suck ass and see no play, but with slightly more stats.
this makes it a tremendous hassle to figure out what a pokemon's stats should be, making everthing harder for every player with minimal benefit and a vast swathe of collateral repercussions. you've somehow managed to describe something worse than just customizing the canon stats of pokemon directly.
and i want to emphasize, denied.
this makes it a tremendous hassle to figure out what a pokemon's stats should be, making everthing harder for every player with minimal benefit and a vast swathe of collateral repercussions. you've somehow managed to describe something worse than just customizing the canon stats of pokemon directly.
and i want to emphasize, denied.
90/6/5/5/5/fast. at least your recoil moves give you penalty-proof when you hit a 2 defense lucky egg guy. not clear what exactly this guys supposed to do besides handily lose to fighting-types
85/4/5/7/5/fast. on cart you can just sticky web and die and chill but here that doesn't really work, this guy is basically a moonblast clicker with sleep, which puts you in about the same place as sylveon (who was also posted in here!) except sylveon has actual stats. screens qd are okay but you need to get to level 4 just for that which is done better by other stuff anyway (everyone is good with screens). abilities do nothing for it. gets a bunch of weird shit like fake tears and bestow but just use togekiss
kinda like ribombee except instead of every trick you have a few tricks and decent stats. not terrible in doubles cause you get support moves and all that (still competes with alcremie) but just a very uninspiring and passive mon with truly confounding moves such as aromatic mist. at least you have moonblast.
bulk and spa stats are equal to ribombee. again sticky web aside this guy is made for clicking electric moves every turn and we made like 5 caps for that exact purpose. this guy isnt very good
if you want a fast water move clicking guy that has 9 attack and absolutely nothing else then this is your dude. i think this loses to impish tyranitar despite having close combat. also extremely uninteresting and unappealing due to the complete lack of tricks (it still wouldnt be great with tricks but would be at least ok)
i got the horses in the back. 85/7/5/6/6/fast and the idea is youre immune to hazards and cant be trapped. or in galarian rapidash's case the idea is also that you're immune to poison (?). galarian rapidash is the type of mon to trade off against conkeldurr if you count allowing mach combo on your next guy as "trading off". kanto rapidash at least has ff and wisp so you can beat shit like metagross, but is still hardly inspirational. these also suffer from horn drill being easily the worst ohko move.
so many moves and for what? even in doubles these are hard to justify because the 6 spa really starts to hurt you and you don't have night shade or psywave. (keen eye doesnt help for this because your coverage moves are strictly 8 power at most, a problem i see in a lot of keen eye users.) assuming youre able to play a successful supporting role by spamming helping hand or whatever (still not actually a good setup), you still have 85/6/6 bulk and need to watch out for taunt. meowstic-m gets prankster and meowstic-f gets competitive but neither really do much for them. gothitelle also effortlessly outclasses both.
this is a good example of what i was talking about with the keen eye thing. you have exactly 2 nonstab moves worth clicking (knock off and ice beam). anyway this guy is kinda like pelipper except you need to supply the rain manually (with your tears)
hates the drum nerf obviously, but even beyond that not a very good drummer even factoring in espeed. i always see drummers boosting their speed in this (trailblaze ursaluna, flame charge zard), or just having priority (azu, hariyama, iron hands) and the espeed idea is pretty unremarkable in comparison. the abilities (pickup, gluttony, quick feet) are also just a bit awkward and it feels like they don't work together very well.
hey look its the guy that can only boost his attack with drum after drum became 2 turn duration lol. how you doin man
part of me wants to get this and bring them to things cause new hustle + regen is pretty much the perfect ability combo but then i have to first send corsola (if i second send it i probably die in the space of 2 rounds). the mon doesn't really have a lot for very strong attacks, struggles to do damage even with hustle, and 85 hp is right in the sour spot between cool w/ pomeg and usable w/ lucky egg.
85/6/6 is too low to be a screens supporter, 6 spa means you struggle to win favorable type matchups, you get hit super effectively always, subseed is very far from game-breaking in this, no strength sap and no sleep powder. you know the drill.
spikes are enough to make anything at least okay but this guy doesnt have a lot else. offensive mon with one of the worst offensive type combinations. even cacturne gets stab knock off and in general has almost twice as many moves, and that's cacturne, who isn't close to being good.
Has anyone talked about 
yet? Electric/Flying is unfortunately a crowded typing and this guy does nothing that stands out. Stats are 85/5/5/8/5/125, which is BAD. It's fast, but doesn't hit that hard unless you grab Electro Ball, but you have to get there. Its good defensive typing is also completely undermined by its paper bulk.
Unlike Wind Rider, Wind Power doesn't make you immune to Wind attacks (not that it would be that useful in the first place), and the Charge effect is alright but not groundbreaking. It does synergize well with Volt Absorb but to my knowledge no Electric move is also a Wind move so it can't exactly get going.
And then there's the fact that this bird gets no moves. It literally gets Electric, Normal, Flying moves... and U-Turn. That's it. No coverage whatsoever. Nothing to help break past Ground-types. You're stuck using Tailwind and U-Turn, but you don't really have the staying power to be an efficient support. No screens, either.
It's far worse than Zapdos, far worse than Thundurus, and even Emolga gets Light Ball now.
Kilowattrel more than deserves a spot in this thread.
yet? Electric/Flying is unfortunately a crowded typing and this guy does nothing that stands out. Stats are 85/5/5/8/5/125, which is BAD. It's fast, but doesn't hit that hard unless you grab Electro Ball, but you have to get there. Its good defensive typing is also completely undermined by its paper bulk.Unlike Wind Rider, Wind Power doesn't make you immune to Wind attacks (not that it would be that useful in the first place), and the Charge effect is alright but not groundbreaking. It does synergize well with Volt Absorb but to my knowledge no Electric move is also a Wind move so it can't exactly get going.
And then there's the fact that this bird gets no moves. It literally gets Electric, Normal, Flying moves... and U-Turn. That's it. No coverage whatsoever. Nothing to help break past Ground-types. You're stuck using Tailwind and U-Turn, but you don't really have the staying power to be an efficient support. No screens, either.
It's far worse than Zapdos, far worse than Thundurus, and even Emolga gets Light Ball now.
Kilowattrel more than deserves a spot in this thread.
i think this guy has flown under the radar due to his only appearance so far being in team star, where you can actually get away with being a pure rock (due to rock slide and stealth rock) and being a regen with no matchup control (due to switching being less punishable in doubles). still just not getting it done, 85/7/8/3/4/75 is only vaguely good if you're able to get two regenerations off. when i think of pure rocks i think of guys that win damage races due to good ability combos like gigalith garganacl and stratagem. instead of having any of that, klawf has anger shell which is hardly helpful and at best dubiously synergistic with regenerator. it would be a lot cooler if instead of a regular stage boost it gave something that persisted on switch out so you could get another one with regen, but even then just so many problems with this guy.
they keep making the same guy and he keeps not doing anything. the problem with these is that they're fast and have 7 attack, and those are the good parts. the movepools are decently big but pretty lacking in tricks so even if you spam pomeg to become immortal for a round, opponent can just defend and be fine, or just attack into you because your bulk has gone from 75/4/5 to 95/4/5 (dugtrio-a has 5 def) which is still on the same level as something like darmanitan-galar (100/4/4). the dugs have sand veil + sand force which is mildly funny and is the sole reason why kanto dug might one day dream of trapping tyranitar like in adv ou. wugtrio instead has the truly mystical ability set of rattled/gooey/sand veil but is the only one to mysteriously learn pain split.
i think gems are the only good use case for new unburden, its so awesome to fire off gem hjk with hitmonlee, gem gunk with grafaiai, gem giga impact combo for (15 + 15 + 15 + 3) * 3/2 = 72 damage on a dark-weak lead with thievul, then fuck around for a while with attack and defense aid til you get another gem. instead of holding gems, mega sceptile holds a technique control. its power is allocated mostly to its stats; the mon gets almost nothing out of attack aid, and defense aid is certainly helpful but you still have only 85 hp.
shed tail is not nearly as convincing a move here as it is on cart due to the many ways to beat substitute. so basically you have skarmory with 1 less spdef, no sturdy, no stab brave bird, and a much smaller movepool. at low levels your tricks are spikes, rocks, and wrap. at higher levels you get shed tail and body press. who cares
this guy carried me thru a pokerogue playthrough so i cant be too mad at him but what does this actually do. you get the standard dog moves and are clicking play rough off 6 atk. what
this would be kinda cool if you could spam petal dance to proc leaf guard but the confusion change really hurts that. not much to do other than qd giga drain with maybe a leaf guard move thrown in there when convenient, which only really works if you have a teammate's reflect into no defog user. technically the mon is functional but no one is ever scared of this