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All Gens Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)
- Thread starter Jellicent
- Start date
Blaziken was banned at the end of the third round, thread here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-3-so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish.86062/
and then I believe was retested in round 4 here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ou-suspect-testing-round-4-blaze-of-glory.3446403/
This thread has the round 3 suspect nominations where you can read why those who qualified nominated blaziken: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...dentification-and-suspect-nominations.102217/
Why are people running beat up dugtrio in adv? After reading bulbapedia I can't figure out why it's used- at best it's a 60bp physical dark type attack that gets weaker if your party mons get fainted or statused
I'd like to second this, but it seems like the move comes off of teammate's attack stat, so if you have a ttar in the back it goes from a weak non-stab base 10 power attack to a strong stab attack.
This post covers it well. But I'm adding a bit more detail too.
Beat Up is used specifically for beating Blissey reliably. It outdamages EQ substantially, with a healthy team.
This is because in ADV Beat Up doesn't use the actual attack/defense stats of the Pokemon. It uses their BASE stats, which means for the one case of Dugtrio itself attacking Blissey the damage calc is done with 80 Attack for Dugtrio and 10 Defense for Blissey. That 8:1 ratio is a much more extreme ratio than if you use their actual final, invested stats, which is between 2 and 3 :1. Even factoring in that EQ is higher BP and STAB, a combined 6 hits from most any reasonable set of Pokemon will end up outdamaging EQ.
You don't even need to pair it with physical attackers, since many pokemon on a special offense-spam team (which has always been very dangerous, if you can just get around blissey) also have high attack, since many of them generally are high BST legendaries. Zapdos, Jirachi, Celebi, etc all have higher attack than Dugtrio does! It's also not remotely impossible to engineer this sort of scenario where you trap Blissey early, with your team healthy. You can easily lead Zapdos with Baton Pass. They lead Skarmory or Suicune, etc, and decide hard switch to Blissey.
For the record, also pairing with Tyranitar in particular does not have any benefit as Beat Up deals typeless damage prior to BW.
In terms of fitting Beat Up on Dugtrio, Rock Slide was never particularly important but was just the "best remaining" move it could have, as it's generally a bad move to lock into and is primarily used against threats you don't trap, while Aerial Ace is very specifically for Heracross (and Breloom) and HP Bug for Celebi. Beat Up is likely to be better for most teams. Even in the situations where you don't get the chance to trap Blissey with 5 or 6 healthy mons, the opportunity cost of dropping Rock Slide is reasonably low. You would only use it anyway to revenge like... Zapdos, Mence, and Moltres, and even then you'd have to be in a pretty bad position to need to do so, since locking into RS is usually bad anyway.
Beat Up is used specifically for beating Blissey reliably. It outdamages EQ substantially, with a healthy team.
This is because in ADV Beat Up doesn't use the actual attack/defense stats of the Pokemon. It uses their BASE stats, which means for the one case of Dugtrio itself attacking Blissey the damage calc is done with 80 Attack for Dugtrio and 10 Defense for Blissey. That 8:1 ratio is a much more extreme ratio than if you use their actual final, invested stats, which is between 2 and 3 :1. Even factoring in that EQ is higher BP and STAB, a combined 6 hits from most any reasonable set of Pokemon will end up outdamaging EQ.
You don't even need to pair it with physical attackers, since many pokemon on a special offense-spam team (which has always been very dangerous, if you can just get around blissey) also have high attack, since many of them generally are high BST legendaries. Zapdos, Jirachi, Celebi, etc all have higher attack than Dugtrio does! It's also not remotely impossible to engineer this sort of scenario where you trap Blissey early, with your team healthy. You can easily lead Zapdos with Baton Pass. They lead Skarmory or Suicune, etc, and decide hard switch to Blissey.
For the record, also pairing with Tyranitar in particular does not have any benefit as Beat Up deals typeless damage prior to BW.
In terms of fitting Beat Up on Dugtrio, Rock Slide was never particularly important but was just the "best remaining" move it could have, as it's generally a bad move to lock into and is primarily used against threats you don't trap, while Aerial Ace is very specifically for Heracross (and Breloom) and HP Bug for Celebi. Beat Up is likely to be better for most teams. Even in the situations where you don't get the chance to trap Blissey with 5 or 6 healthy mons, the opportunity cost of dropping Rock Slide is reasonably low. You would only use it anyway to revenge like... Zapdos, Mence, and Moltres, and even then you'd have to be in a pretty bad position to need to do so, since locking into RS is usually bad anyway.
bughouse covered it extensively, so I'll just add that while counter blissey ruins even bulky dug, it is not able to do so against beat up. the extra damage from beat up is also useful because it lets you keep jolly on dug, whose eq can very feasibly not 2hko blissey, especially bold bliss outside of sand (most bliss teams have ttar but might not lead with it and you'll want to dug the bliss asap).
Why does this ORAS sample team use Hoopa-C? I remember reading that it's used as a spinblocker, but I'm curious as to why Hoopa in particular is used (better than Gengar at tanking attacks from Excadrill/Starmie?) And what is Hyperspace Hole's effect used for that makes it selected over Psychic?
Hoopa-C is able to clean out some teams with the support of Shuckle's hazards, particularly Sticky Web. It has good coverage (Ghost/Psychic/Fighting) and also can help cripple Pokemon that may switch in to Hoopa as well as other threats on the team with Trick, thus making it useful in some more defensive match-ups as well. Hyperspace Hole goes through Protect, if I recall correctly. Hoopa-C is not a Pokemon you will see on most team archetypes, but it is perfectly viable in the last slot of this Sticky Webs build.
RBY lower tiers has been getting pretty active recently, and I noticed that on the site there's no real analyses for anything other than OU (and Mew/Mewtwo for Ubers). Are there any plans on expanding the analyses on the site for the lower tiers yet? I feel like we have a good community that would be willing to contribute to UU and NU analyses, and maybe even adding Ubers analysis for stuff other than Mew/Mewtwo.
I haven't asked anyone else if they'd be interested yet but I think it'd be cool to see something get done if there aren't already plans in the works.
I haven't asked anyone else if they'd be interested yet but I think it'd be cool to see something get done if there aren't already plans in the works.
We're working on UU, with potential suspect tests/bans right now. Once that is complete and the meta has settled, I, and a couple of others, were planning on updating the sets.
NU still needs time imo since things could end up moving up into UU or down into NU and we don't know everything that is viable yet.
I agree though, the lower tier analysis for RBY are an eye sore at best and we want to change them asap.
NU still needs time imo since things could end up moving up into UU or down into NU and we don't know everything that is viable yet.
I agree though, the lower tier analysis for RBY are an eye sore at best and we want to change them asap.
In ADV OU, how has Lanturn been faring? Is it still a legitimate choice?
If I was trying to build a rain list for USUM (standard core of pelipper, mega pert, ash ninja, defensive torn t, dual hazard ferro) with icium z kyurem black as the 6th what kind of set would I use on kyurem (and what options would be allowed for the rest of the team?).
I'd probably use Freeze shock, fusion bolt, ice beam+1. Earth power is what I'm thinking but idk, it doesn't even hit all that hard without investment and you basically have to nail stuff on the switch and then use it again to get kills. But maybe sub, roost, hone claws, toxic, outrage, or protect could be better?
I'd probably use Freeze shock, fusion bolt, ice beam+1. Earth power is what I'm thinking but idk, it doesn't even hit all that hard without investment and you basically have to nail stuff on the switch and then use it again to get kills. But maybe sub, roost, hone claws, toxic, outrage, or protect could be better?
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I love zkb on rain (details here) and after some frustrating losses to bulky teams with mega scizor, I think hp fire is actually worth considering. I know it seems weird on rain, but against teams with mzor, you will really appreciate them not being able to prevent you from grabbing your auto-ko - otherwise, your kyurem is basically useless and you will be fighting an uphill, losing battle. just lead off with kyu before rain's up and you're in business. being able to threaten ferro more without necessarily needing to z is really nice as well.
of course, earth power is also nice so bulky heatran can't dance around you as easily.
of course, earth power is also nice so bulky heatran can't dance around you as easily.
I think the metagame is the same, so lanturn is still a legitimate choice. Here's the video about lanturn from bkc in case you don't know it.
Here
In BW OU, what is the best agility+sub baton passer to pair with sand force SD exca?
Mew and Gliscor are the only ones with this function.
What's up with Espeon's smogon set description for gen 3?
You'll have to be more specific, is there something wrong with it? It was written circa 2006-07 so that may be what you're puzzled about
https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/espeon/
Will there ever be updated Ubers analysis for RBY, GSC, and ADV?
If you want them the past gen C&C section is always looking for writers
edit in case this was unclear but no they are not high priority but if you wanted to help write them there are definitely people willing to QC them, they’re just not actively seeking to revamp them
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In GSC, Marowak runs suboptimal IVs whenever it has a Thick Club + Swords Dance on the set, due to a glitch that causes its Attack stat to underflow if it exceeds a certain amount (1024, if I recall correctly).
However, since we have now made stat underflows now cap instead as of Gen 8, should we revisit this case from Gen 2 and do the same here? I guess I don't see why these two instances, which are literally the same thing happening in both cases, are treated differently.
Should we not try to be consistent?
However, since we have now made stat underflows now cap instead as of Gen 8, should we revisit this case from Gen 2 and do the same here? I guess I don't see why these two instances, which are literally the same thing happening in both cases, are treated differently.
Should we not try to be consistent?
I'm not involved in tiering so this might not be the correct answer, but I think the difference is that GSC marowak is possible without rom editing. The clause in gen 8 is allowed because it only affects OMs which don't follow cart mechanics anyway, so theres no worry about adhering to cart mechanics. We won't edit cart mechanics in standard cart play of GSC