Announcement Apple - Voltorb-Hisui Suspect Test

[Coconut]

"I guess the apple could turn yellow or green, I know there's lots of nuances"
​

The old-timey apricorn has an interesting history in Little Cup. When it was initially released, it was quickly deemed to be useless, with people laughing it off as yet another 20 speed Electric-type that would have zero impact on the meta, like it's futuristic counterpart. But the potential was there, and some people saw it. With a strong defensive typing in Grass, a good enough Special Attack stat, and a blistering speed, some people saw Hisuan Voltorb as a threat, and they would be proven right.

Voltorb-Hisui quickly shined as a strong offensive pivot who could eat a surprising amount of hits, and return fire with a powerful Volt Switch or Giga Drain. Hisuian Voltorb has more than just speed and STAB though, the eletric orb's also one of the best users of Tera. The sheer variety of types that Voltorb can viability run cannot be counted on one hand, meaning the supposed check you might have prepared might suddenly not be an answer anymore. This is magnified by Voltorb's blazingly fast speed, outpacing the entire unboosted metagame; any Pokemon that's chipped could suddenly be taken down before they get a chance to properly trade with Voltorb-Hisui. This can also be a problem as Hisuian Voltorb provides easy chip damage with Volt Switch, perpetually forcing checks and counters to switch in, or trade the health of an often valuable Pokemon. Playing around Voltorb-Hisui is also more challenging than you might expect, as switching into it becomes a guessing game. Volt Switch implies the check you could bring in now has to be saved for later as the pokeball you meant to counter is now in it's pokeball. Pressing U-Turn with Pokemon such as Vullaby or Mienfoo also becomes a challenge with Voltorb-Hisui's ability of Static, meaning you could potentially cripple one of your best Pokemon in an attempt to keep momentum. The concept of unpredictability and forcing exchanges which can be very difficult to overcome is why the Little Cup council is moving forward with a Hisuian Voltorb Suspect.
________

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE​	minimum games​
78​	50​
78.2​	49​
78.4​	48​
78.6​	47​
78.8​	46​
79​	45​
79.2​	44​
79.4​	43​
79.6​	42​
79.8​	41​
80​	40​
80.2​	39​
80.4​	38​
80.6​	37​
80.8​	36​
81​	35​
81.2​	34​
81.4​	33​
81.6​	32​
81.8​	31​
82​	30​

Suspect information:

• All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! Little Cup ladder on a new alt with the following format: "APPLC (nickname)”. For example, APPLC Coconut.​
• Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.​
• Please keep discussion to the current suspect topic, I know there are other things that people might think are problematic, but this thread is to focus on Voltorb-Hisui.​
• The suspect test will be ending on Friday, September 27th at 10:59 pm (GMT -4).
  
  Little Cup will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation or ladder cheating/forfeiting. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge.​

"I wanna grow the apple, keep all the seeds
But I can't help but get so angry"​

 

[Mister Magnus]

The fact I dismissed it completely and 5 minutes later were like " Oh wait, i might use it" is a super testament of how great this mon tera range is

 

[#1 Talonflame Enjoyer]

Just a question as per the suspect, I feel obligated to get reqs but am confused on this term:

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

So, do I have to get this requirement with a main account? Or can I make an alt account, but just have to meet these requirements?

Edit: Made suspect testing acc, name is APPLC Talonflame.

 

[roxie]

Just a question as per the suspect, I feel obligated to get reqs but am confused on this term:

So, do I have to get this requirement with a main account? Or can I make an alt account, but just have to meet these requirements?

“All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! Little Cup ladder on a new alt with the following format: "APPLC (nickname)”. For example, APPLC Coconut.” Your prefix just needs to have applc on a new alt, so not your main alt. You must make a new account regardless.

 

[#1 Talonflame Enjoyer]

“All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! Little Cup ladder on a new alt with the following format: "APPLC (nickname)”. For example, APPLC Coconut.” Your prefix just needs to have applc on a new alt, so not your main alt. You must make a new account regardless.

Oh, so I just need to get reqs on the alt?

 

[roxie]

Oh, so I just need to get reqs on the alt?

Yes “applelc talonflame” is an example of a name , make sure u register it and follow along with the Games-to-GXE ratio to track your progress. I’d try and set a goal like 30-6 , “every 10 wins only get 2 losses”. Whatever goal/system you set for yourself just know: the more losses you get = more wins you’ll need to potentially achieve reqs.

 

[#1 Talonflame Enjoyer]

Yes “applelc talonflame” is an example of a name , make sure u register it and follow along with the Games-to-GXE ratio to track your progress. I’d try and set a goal like 30-6 , “every 10 wins only get 2 losses”. Whatever goal/system you set for yourself just know: the more losses you get = more wins you’ll need to potentially achieve reqs.

Yeah, that's gonna be a nightmare, I can see why so few people get reqs nowadays...

 

[omp]

where can i vote once i have met all requirements

 

[TerraShade]

where can i vote once i have met all requirements

Announcement Thread 'Voltorb-Hisui Suspect Reqs Identification Thread'

Sep 13, 2024

This thread is for posting your proof of voting requirements ("reqs") for the Voltorb-H suspect. Your fresh alt must start with the following format: "APPLC [Name]" and your post must include proof of ownership.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 82 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE minimum games 78 50 ...

• Coconut
• Replies: 16
• Forum: Little Cup

voting thread itself will prolly come out later

 

[Kipkluif]

Torbs fine. Yes its one of the best pokemon of any lc meta. Yes its tera range is flexible and it invalidates a lot of stuff. However, its damage output isn't actually unreasonable, I dont feel as tied up in the builder as other people claim to by it (stuff like torchic and stunky are way more "guilty" of this), I will be voting dnb.

 

[Envy1]

its damage output isn't actually unreasonable

well, most of the times it gets 2 hits off (tbolt/giga/terablast into volt switch) so even the checks like mienfoo, which can usually regen one voltorb hit, it cant regen two, so it compensates not having a high damage output

I dont feel as tied up in the builder

running mienfoo and your own voltorb, or toed/fongus fs can deal with voltorb alongside tera dragon while not making anyone feel tied up because these are all standard, though there are a lot of pokemon that cant play a game if voltorb is being spammed in at least 9/10 teams. i can mention magnemite, chinchou, elekid, wingull, and even already OK pokemon that are insanely held back by voltorb as in diglett-a or snubbull

for these reasons and some more i will be voting ban

 

[Kipkluif]

well, most of the times it gets 2 hits off (tbolt/giga/terablast into volt switch) so even the checks like mienfoo, which can usually regen one voltorb hit, it cant regen two, so it compensates not having a high damage output

So a pokemon that doesnt resist any of those moves can be a check? Yea that sounds like a healthy pokemon to me

i can mention magnemite, chinchou, elekid, wingull, and even already OK pokemon that are insanely held back by voltorb as in diglett-a or snubbull

Chinchou and elekid havent been good for a couple gens now, wingull outside of gen 7 has never shone either. Dig a has been viable in metas where torb was around this gen. There is no metagame in which mons dont struggle because of the top mon, and it rarely is as simple as "this mon hits x super effectively so it must be bad because of that". Pawn before it lost knock was good in basically every foo meta, vull was unbanned in ss and foongus and grookey got better. Sometimes, bad mons are just bad.

 

[Envy1]

So a pokemon that doesnt resist any of those moves can be a check? Yea that sounds like a healthy pokemon to me

not for long, we have all seen how this interaction works specially with hazards up, voltorb with its stabs completely deny mienfoo's regen while getting an extra 30~% with volt switch, which snowballs really quick.

also, we are using mienfoo as a voltorb answer because pokemon like toed and foongus which are the only other 2 pokemon that i consider good into voltorb arent that splashable, and a lot of times are passed over for other pokémon that perform a similar role/share a similar typing, but are considered more viable because of their versatility as in mareanie and mudbray

also, voltorb made mienfoo's standard spread change only because of it, since we are all using 13spd now for the fast version of it, being fake out or sd, which is another factor on the 'teambuilding restriction' conversation

Chinchou and elekid havent been good for a couple gens now,

chinchou was good during a relevant part of SS Vullaby meta, and still used to this day in SM, besides being one of the best in ORAS, BW and DPP. Elekid is better than ever now that it learns Knock Off and can do great work with this, but it is unexplored because how better voltorb is.

although this isnt a good argument from both of our parts because this is a different meta, for example torchic that was never this big of a threat by itself, is good now because of some factors (few fire resists and only 1 having longevity , and mostly because of tera blast).
what i wanna say is that those pokémon could have a good potential in the sv lc meta but are all made unviable by voltorb

Dig a has been viable in metas where torb was around this gen.

it is still viable, but held back by voltorb as i said in my previous post

There is no metagame in which mons dont struggle because of the top mon

yea but almost everything stuggle with it, it doesnt have any competition, it makes too many pokemon unviable, makes too much already viable stuff run tera dragon (which is easily exploited by tera ice) just because of it and breaks through its checks too fast (besides ).



i get that voltorb isnt a vanilla stupid pokemon in this meta like gastly, snivy or porygon but with all things considered, the way it is restricting teambuilding to few structures (which changes fast since after its ban since more good stuff will be viable and itself wouldnt be in them anymore). and its outplay potential being too high for breaking through stuff that can switch in it 1 or 2 times is what makes me think that a meta without voltorb would be better.

 

[Novax]

I feel like Voltorb in itself is not that threating, since mons like Sp def Mienfoo, foongus, even opposing voltorbs can check it pretty well, but it becomes more of a problem when you pair it with the gen 9 mechanic : Terastalization. Now mons that previously used to check Voltorb (as mentioned above), don't always do so. Mienfoo in itself is a very soft check and needs to keep eviolite intact in order to safely check torb. Tera Fire is the most common torb tera type which already beats 2 of the aforementioned checks : foongus and opposing torb. This leads to scenarios where the game is decided by a 50/50 speed tie between 2 torbs or a 50/50 tera vs no tera situation. A common trend that was developed to check torb in the meta is to use tera dragon, but that only works if your opponent is using tera fire in the first place and not tera ice or something completely different like Tera Fairy to check both Mienfoo and Tera Dragon

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-781212

This is the replay of the Week 1 LCPL Game between Mada and Nashrock
Skip forward to Turn 30 and Mada reveals Tera Psychic Torb which one shots Miefoo and takes the game to a speed tie which ultimately resulted in them winning the game.

Voltorb often forces you to preserve your tera (similar to mons like Torchic and Shellder) and often punishes early tera but is more efficient in doing so than the other two I mentioned.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-787211

Another example of how sometimes Tera Dragon is not enough to stop opposing voltorb simply because its running Tera Ice / Tera Fairy

Being a Electric type which can hit ground types with stab super effective moves is already strong enough but that paired with access to Volt Swtich, access to draining move namely Giga Drain and ability to tera out of bad mus pushes it out of the line of what is defined as "competitively healthy" imo.

 

[TerraShade]

“Terastalization means that Voltorb can flip matchups” isn’t exactly the slam dunk it sounds like when you consider that Voltorb has literally nothing else for coverage. A lot is made of Voltorb’s insane Tera range but that also glosses over the fact that you know it’s bringing Tera Blast every game. The more we torture ourselves with mindgames of random Tera Type go (Tera Fairy?) the more we forget that Tera is less of a surprise tool that Voltorb can use and more of a known quantity that it frequently needs to credibly threaten its answers.

More importantly, the benefit of Terastalizing Voltorb is often quite sharply curtailed by the opportunity cost. As Novax already pointed out, there are other deadly threats in the game that incentivize players to hold onto their Teras. In a meta where Terastalization can be both a sweep-starter and a sweep-stopper, it’s often unappetizing to pop an early Tera on Voltorb just so you can begin to threaten Foongus. Of course, Terastalized Voltorb can still be incredibly valuable as a cleaner, but it’s not exactly an unstoppable breaker that can pop Tera indiscriminately to kill mons on command.

I think this is rather the key behind Voltorb- it doesn’t flip matchups whenever it wants to, or even pose a severe threat at any given time. It’s adept at chipping its checks, and has to be played around carefully… in other words, it’s a strong Pokémon in the metagame? It doesn’t possess any of the qualities that typically make Pokémon banworthy (absurd sweeping potential, lack of significant counterplay, frequently bailing players out of losing games, obscenely high-reward matchup fishing). I’d argue it’s not even close.

Envi commented on how Voltorb constricts team building and stops a lot of archetypes from being played- I do not have nearly enough familiarity with the history of LC to deduce how well older mons would perform if Voltorb wasn’t in the game, so I can’t evaluate how much a ban would promote positive change in the meta. What I can say is that it doesn’t seem to me that Voltorb is doing anything to actively destabilize the current meta, or that it’s making games competitively unreasonable.

 

[Hacker]

i think hisuian voltorb should be banned because i dont like the meta and the meta that revolves around hisuian voltorb. you can't even use foongus to beat it anymore. gameplay that this mon forces is insanely degenerate. endless loops of clicking volt switch and u turn with regenerator is just boring and very uninteractive to play with. regardless of all that though, while i do agree with the sentiment that this is the best sv meta we've had in a very long time, i think we should strive to play more than a mediocre meta and banning hisuian voltorb is one of the many steps i think we should do to acheive a fun and interactive metagame.

 

[Novax]

I think this is rather the key behind Voltorb- it doesn’t flip matchups whenever it wants to, or even pose a severe threat at any given time. It’s adept at chipping its checks, and has to be played around carefully… in other words, it’s a strong Pokémon in the metagame? It doesn’t possess any of the qualities that typically make Pokémon banworthy (absurd sweeping potential, lack of significant counterplay, frequently bailing players out of losing games, obscenely high-reward matchup fishing). I’d argue it’s not even close.

Saying that Voltorb doesn't pose a severe threat at any given time is not really accurate, it is one of the most consistent mon, if not the most consistent mon to force progress and constantly threaten opposing mons, Voltorb doesn't need to OHKO opposing mons, having an unrivaled base 100 speed makes it faster than almost any other LC mon baring Elekid and Wiglett, meaning it can keep Volt Switching around and being a grass type means that you can't really use a ground type and call it a day like against most electric types. Your options get limited to stuff like Wattrel and Foongus (Both of which can be tera'ed against to remove). You can argue that every time Voltorb comes in, it takes hazard damage but Voltorb can just giga drain it off.

 

[TerraShade]

Saying that Voltorb doesn't pose a severe threat at any given time is not really accurate, it is one of the most consistent mon, if not the most consistent mon to force progress and constantly threaten opposing mons, Voltorb doesn't need to OHKO opposing mons, having an unrivaled base 100 speed makes it faster than almost any other LC mon baring Elekid and Wiglett, meaning it can keep Volt Switching around and being a grass type means that you can't really use a ground type and call it a day like against most electric types. Your options get limited to stuff like Wattrel and Foongus (Both of which can be tera'ed against to remove). You can argue that every time Voltorb comes in, it takes hazard damage but Voltorb can just giga drain it off.

It's definitely obscenely consistent but I'd argue that the "not OHKOing" part is a bigger deal than you would think. It Volt Switches incredibly freely which is a massive pain but the amount of damage it can actually deal is pretty fixed at all times and it loses straight 1v1s to a lot of mons which means it's decently limited as a cleaner. If you want to finish a game with Voltorb you need a lot of chip + Knocks on everything, even if you've saved Tera. Relying on Voltorb to close games often just gets you disappointed as the mon fails to kill anything outright, not to mention how it gets outrun by Scarfs and Torchic.

Voltorb's strength is definitely that it forces progress at all times, but there's still a gulf between "creating good offense" and "blowing through enemy structures". It's a pest that has to be managed over the course of a game but the risk factor for making mistakes is much more gradual and long-term, which IMO is a normal part of mons. I get the "he keeps Volting" frustration but I don't see it as a true balance issue. Whether you think that makes for a fun metagame or not is certainly a valid debate, but that's hacker/Envi's conversation and not mine.

Also yes I will take this chance to mention that Voltorb takes damage from every single hazard in the game, and while Giga Drain certainly helps mitigate that it still adds up. Toxic Spikes also limit the amount of times that Voltorb can come in as you juggle your poisons trying to keep them off the field, reducing the impact of a mon that really wants to be able to switch in and out without repercussion.

 

[Drifting]

Voltorb is a pretty interesting case, as the reason it should be banned (and yes, to cut to the chase I think it should be) isn’t as in-your-face as something like Scraggy or Snivy, but if you dig a little deeper it quickly becomes apparent hiw malignant of an effect it has both in the builder and in the game itself, the culmination of both factors making the tier a lot worse.

In the builder, the current “meta” team consists of:

Mienfoo
Vullaby
Mienfoo Switch-in
Vullaby Switch-in:
Voltorb-Hisui
And the one free slot, which almost always ends up being a ground-type but can also be some other offensive tool

Obviously you can deviate from this, such as swapping Voltorb for a Torchic instead, or Mudbray as a dubious Vull counter, but clearly this is is the structure that most teams fall into, cookie cutter gonna cookie cut, but as a result the obvious issue here is how restrictive and honestly kinda bland building is with the holy trinity of Mienfoo, Vullaby and Voltorb co-existing. Other SV metas haven’t been like this, and pre-vull SS wasn’t like this either, the overload of tier defining threats on every team makes the builder suffocating.

The other major issue here is that, if you don’t have Foongus, the only pokemon that can really handle Voltorb is U-Turn Mienfoo. The problem is that worst case scenario, Voltorb hits a Volt Switch on the switch (what a tongue twister) into something like Stunky or Gothita, and even if they don’t, due to Voltorb’s uncontested speed, it can just use a STAB as Foo comes in and then Volt Switch out again, out damaging Regenerator, and contributing to the boring pivotfest slop meta that Hacker described earlier. Even if you do have Foongus, that Pokemon has the same issue, just being a major momentum sink and liability vs Vullaby if you get Volt Switched on.

It’s part of a greater issue where Voltorb basically prevents or greatly disrupts the ability to identify and make skilful midgrounds, admittedly in conjunction with other pokemon. Voltorb is so fast and it’s STAB combination so deadly, that if it ever pivots in against say, a Mudbray, then they can either stay in on Giga Drain and lose, switch to Mienfoo on Volt Switch and lose to scarf Goth, or switch to their own Voltorb and lose to your own Mienfoo clicking U-turn for free momentum. There is literally no compromising play there, they just have to guess by either clicking Earthquake on Volt Switch or going into Mienfoo and praying for Giga Drain. This type of 50/50 guessing is nothing new, wallbreakers have been making you flip a coin in Pokemon forever, but typically most wallbreakers, like Mega Medicham or Hoopa-U are held back by being relatively slow and being momentum sinks, neither of which are obviously true about Voltorb, it has all the wallbreaker strengths and none of the weaknesses.

The only technical compromise is like Wattrel, but let’s be honest when we say that Pokemon is very mid (though still kinda underrated tbf), almost entirely kept in employment by Voltorb, loses most of its value when rocks go up and loses to many Voltorb Teras anyway. Speaking of Tera, Voltorb easily has the most tera diversity of any notable LC mon, with Fire and Psychic being very common, Ice getting better as Toed gets more popular (as the goat predicted), and other types like Electric, Rock and Fairy all having seen tournament usage off the top of my head. More understated though is how Voltorb’s presence restricts the Tera choices many other pokemon have, with notable examples being Dragon on Mienfoo and Foongus and Electric on Vullaby. This restricted freedom eliminates many of the power and utility Tera has as a mechanic, and has some terrible effects we can see in metagames past and present: For example, something like Mienfoo being unable to run Tera Water was a major cause of the (now mostly died out) ban Shellder movement we saw recently, as the tools needed to handle both Voltorb and Shellder were for the most part entirely distinct.

Apart from these pseudo-compulsory teras, the other major counterplay developed for Voltorb is hazards, which certainly in theory do limit Voltorb’s ability to pivot, especially if it turns into a Fire-type. This is likely why we’ve seen spikestack strategies largely engulf the meta as of late. However, between Voltorb’s respectable bulk and Giga Drain, it has surprising resilience, and the total lack of spin blockers in the tier (some formerly viable ones like Drifloon having been invalidated in large part by Voltorb itself) makes removing these hazards extremely easy for the Voltorb user, as most hazard setters don’t have the resilience or sustainability to get em up multiple times in one game (the closest being Tink, which is probably why it has risen as the premier Rocker/Vull Counter as of late along with threatening Ice Hammer).

To prove that I’m not just making shit up, we can look at the first week of SCL, the highest echelon of the tier and one I’ve obviously been following from the inside for years now.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-790538
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-790840
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-790231
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-790094
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-790264

In most, though not all of these games, we see Voltorb generally being one of the last Pokemon to go down on its teams, and almost always playing an extreme pivotal (pun not intended) role in endgames as the Pokemon receving Tera in a majority of games. When it is enabled by Toedscool especially, a pivot Pokemon like this, which you would expect to die somewhat quickly in a spikestack meta, is staying alive to influence endgames extremely consistently, indicating its longevity. These aren’t even the best games to showcase it’s late game influence either, just random replays I grabbed; everyone reading this has almost surely seen, performed and experienced countless reverse sweep comebacks with Voltorb-Hisui, it’s one of the main things this Pokemon is known for doing.

This by the way, is not even mentioning the obviously degenerate parts of Voltorb, such as Static and Speed ties, whether it be trying to lose Volt Switch ties or win Tera Blast ties. The Pokemon is just too versatile and good at everything at the expense of a diverse and enjoyable metagame to be worth keeping around in my opinion.

This concludes the newest iteration of the Drifting LC Thought Leader manifesto. Please direct all questions to my secretary Hacker.

(PS: I was right about Toedscool all along)

 

[Colin]

good post from drifting, I especially agree with the point that there is little reliable counter play to deny volt switch and the top 3 pivots (foo vull torb) being oppressively good at facilitating each other and requiring too many resources to both use and slow down. I will vote ban, and I believe both that it is broken because it lacks counter play and that the meta would be in a better spot without its influence

 

[#1 Talonflame Enjoyer]

I don't think Voltorb-Hisui is broken personally, put short, it dies to a lot of the meta like First Impression Nymble or Tera Bug Trapinch, Stunky, Growlithe Hisui, and more options, and while Tera does help, it's not enough to make it banworthy as at that point, Tera Dragon walls every one of it's moves and makes it susceptible to Earthquakes from Mudbray, Power Gems from Glimmet, and also the fact that while people are going on about how foongus no longer walls thanks to said Tera, it still walls it hard at base, and still threatens a Spore if Tera is active. Also, it can beat itself, so that's fun. I also heard of Tera Dragon, Flying, and Fairy Blast, but I have never Dragon or Fairy blast once, and Flying Tera, surprise surprise, makes it weak to ITSELF. So yeah, gonna be a pretty easy Do not Ban for me, (If I get reqs.)

 

[Kowasabii]

good post from drifting, I especially agree with the point that there is little reliable counter play to deny volt switch and the top 3 pivots (foo vull torb) being oppressively good at facilitating each other and requiring too many resources to both use and slow down. I will vote ban, and I believe both that it is broken because it lacks counter play and that the meta would be in a better spot without its influence

Just got reqs last night and haven't completely decided my vote as of yet, but I like these points a lot. I think voltorb is comparable to quagsire in the famous gen 7 UU ban, where alone it is managable but when taking team composition into account into becomes really tough to deal with. The big 3 need to get broken up, we cannot allow super teams in this league. Banning voltorb to free agency may be the move to get started.

 

[Judah08]

hisuian voltorb has a unique typing electric grass has alot of resist taking care of ground types such as mudbray. the speed is really good so it can outspeed any opponent (besides weak armor vullaby) which is a huge threat for many users. the versatility with moves like giga drain, volt switch, and thunderbolt hisuian votorb can adapt to various situations and provide both offensive and defensive utility. it pairs well with other Pokémon that can cover its weaknesses, creating strong team compositions. for example, shroodle can knock off opposing items, making it easier for hisuian voltorb to sweep. so we should suspect shroodle because its helping voltorb to sweep. thank you for your time :D

 

[mudkipismudkip]

the only advantage u have on that is a fire type but it can just volt switch into a ground type [most likely mudbray OR a water type] but lets be honest, there is absolutely no way u can take down that without any sort of damage or status affect on ur team unless u built ur entire team around it.

 

[Acehunter1]

Voltorb is a pretty interesting case

Very epic post from Drifting. I've always considered Voltorb-H somewhat oppressive, and I think it needs to go. I won't repeat my thoughts about Voltorb-H, but I'll refer to previous posts here.

From previous posts

I think of all the aforementioned potential suspect candidates, I would support a Voltorb-Hisui suspect the most. While not as offensively explosive as Shellder or Growlithe-Hisui, I think its Speed, its favorable matchup against most Ground types, and its access to Volt Switch to maintain momentum make it really oppressive for the metagame.

I think it's very telling when some of the best checks to Voltorb-Hisui are Pokemon which have a neutral typing matchup (ex. Mienfoo, Toedscool, or even worse, Voltorb-Hisui itself). Most Voltorb-Hisui checks don't even gain momentum on it when they get a prediction right. Of all the Voltorb-Hisui checks, only Toedscool can block Volt Switch (discounting Wattrel which is very frail). Therefore, considering its unique Electric/Grass typing, Voltorb-Hisui can click Volt Switch with quasi-impunity, since most opposing Ground types lose to it and therefore need to do very risky predictions to deny that free switch. In comparison, if Growlithe-Hisui fires off a hit, it will often need to manually switch out the following turn, which can lose momentum.

While Volt Switch might not do that much damage to resisted hits, it's still a STAB pivot move. In comparison, U-Turn from pivots like Mienfoo don't hit very hard, while Larvesta has a hard-hitting STAB U-Turn but is hindered by a weakness to hazards. Both also can be outsped and offensively pressured by other threats, while due to facing a 20-Speed pivot, the only offensive checks to Voltorb-H are Choice Scarf users (excluding First Impression users due to Protect), which is quite restrictive.

In regards to other suspect candidates: I'm not opposed to a Shellder suspect, since while I haven't seen it as overbearing yet, I can get the reasoning. I don't think we're at the point of suspecting Growlithe-Hisui for now, but it could be a candidate in the future. However, I don't think a Gothita suspect is pertinent, since I have no reason to believe it is broken, but rather, it is the lack of solid Voltorb-Hisui checks and Voltorb-Hisui's pivot ability that make Gothita seem too good as an enabler. Therefore, I think that Voltorb-Hisui is the Pokemon that needs to go the most, and would advocate for its ban.

While it doesn't pack the same immediate power as Growlithe-Hisui, the Electric/Grass combination is extremely hard to deal with. Electric types are usually checked by Ground types, but the access to Grass STAB removes almost all of the options. Grass types like Grookey or Foongus do resist both of its STABs, but it's so easy for Voltorb-Hisui to click Volt Switch and gain free momentum, either on the switch or not. This includes Voltorb-Hisui itself. I think Voltorb-Hisui mirrors are somewhat worse than Mienfoo mirrors in SS, since both players often have Volt Switch as by far the best option no matter what, while Mienfoo had several options available. The only defensive checks to Voltorb-Hisui that don't allow it to gain momentum are Wattrel and Toedscool. The former can take a good chunk from Stealth Rock and Tera Blast, while the latter can get worn down over the course of a game. Voltorb-Hisui is also the fastest Pokemon in the tier, making offensive checks limited to Choice Scarf users and Nymble.

So a pokemon that doesnt resist any of those moves can be a check? Yea that sounds like a healthy pokemon to me

It's more like the Pokemon is so hard to check effectively that we are reducing our standards for considering a Pokemon as a check. These Pokemon that don't resist its STABs and don't prevent it from gaining momentum with Volt Switch often only give a slightly over even matchup, and it's the best we can do against it. A true check that would be able to resist its attacks and also gain momentum on it is hard to find.