America's Army and the use of media for military recruiting

[Glen]

I really disagree with the brainwashing/farming comments. I highly doubt somebody is so easily manipulated that they will join the military only because of a video game; and to be honest if somebody is so extremely impressionable like that then they must be incredibly simple. People don't give enough credit to children/teens, they aren't retarded. They can think for themselves, and decide what is best for themselves. Some people in this thread are acting like they think on a similar level of a dog.

intelligence has no bearing on the kind of malleability inherent in most teenagers. granted intelligence or lack thereof could have an impact on your joining the army ('theres no way ill get shot!!!') but susceptibility to manipulation in general is just part of being young. that's what being young is about; you absorb stimuli and make decisions and grow accordingly. i'm not going to say that joining the army is a poor decision because that has no impact on my argument. but it's undeniably a big fucking decision.

i also dont think you totally understand the problem that i and the op have here. no one is saying 'call of duty alone makes people join the army'. we're saying its symptomatic of a warped, war-glorifying culture that puts a lot of pressure on young people to fight for their country.

being a teenager is not easy. you're crazy with hormones and you want to impress girls and you probably want to impress your parents and you want people to like you and you want to make money and you want to be in control and you want to believe in something. all that shit rushing through your head makes it very, very challenging to rationally decide whether you want to risk your life. the fact that the military is considered the ultimate authority only exacerbates this.

people more intelligent than i am have made significantly worse decisions than i have solely due to external pressures. it is disingenuous and facile to call them simple.

 

[Reliking]

I really think the military matures and destroys those teenage hormones. Isn't that the whole purpose of it? Not to say all Military men and women are mature, but most are and I have very much respect for all willing to put their lives in danger for their country. And I really doubt anyone says "alol COD is funnn itz probs just like da military *signs up*

Just my two cents.

 

[Nastyjungle]

intelligence has no bearing on the kind of malleability inherent in most teenagers. granted intelligence or lack thereof could have an impact on your joining the army ('theres no way ill get shot!!!') but susceptibility to manipulation in general is just part of being young. that's what being young is about; you absorb stimuli and make decisions and grow accordingly. i'm not going to say that joining the army is a poor decision because that has no impact on my argument. but it's undeniably a big fucking decision.

i also dont think you totally understand the problem that i and the op have here. no one is saying 'call of duty alone makes people join the army'. we're saying its symptomatic of a warped, war-glorifying culture that puts a lot of pressure on young people to fight for their country.

being a teenager is not easy. you're crazy with hormones and you want to impress girls and you probably want to impress your parents and you want people to like you and you want to make money and you want to be in control and you want to believe in something. all that shit rushing through your head makes it very, very challenging to rationally decide whether you want to risk your life. the fact that the military is considered the ultimate authority only exacerbates this.

people more intelligent than i am have made significantly worse decisions than i have solely due to external pressures. it is disingenuous and facile to call them simple.

I agree that intelligence and impressionability are not directly related, but I believe somebody of even average intelligence should be able to "block" certain stimuli and understand what is right and wrong. As a child, my parents allowed me to watch mostly what I wanted, and I saw lots of macabre films about war and hate and murders and all that, but it didn't turn me into a violent, insane person. I think the same applies with all media. I agree that it is sad that we live in a culture that glorifies war, but I think most people can see that its just that - glorification, and that in fact war is a terrible thing. While I am not anti-military (I am neutral), I'm decidedly anti-war.

And yes, I understand there is a lot of pressure on a teen. That is why you can't join until you are 18 and basically fully grown. Like you said, joining the military is a really big decision, but putting the age limit on it forces young people to think and consider it before jumping in. At 18 you are an adult by society's standards and can make informed and mature decisions.

Basically I sympathize with you that war is awful and I really wish there didn't need to be a military! But the fact remains that war exists and we need people to fight it to keep other people alive. I really wish there could be world peace but at this point in history (and perhaps for forever) that is just pipe dreaming. If there are people out there that are willing to go, I think it is for the better. As long as there are volunteers, there are no drafts, which I think is the ultimate against free choice. By what means they get their volunteers as long as they aren't using violent force or something like that seems alright with me.

Unless I'm mistaken (which I very well could be, somebody please correct me if I am, I haven't read any statistics or anything) there isn't any sort of rise in military recruitment from years in the past, at least none that I have heard of, so that indicates to me that using video games and commercials are just as effective (or ineffective, however you want to look at it) as other methods have always been.

 

[Temperantia]

On the pro/anti-military argument:
I'm thoroughly anti-war, but on the fence concerning the military itself. Having a parent that was in the military, I will not say that everyone who joins is a trigger-happy nutjob/has a god-complex, but the atrocities of war are undeniable. Although, one can make the argument that what we stand for as a nation gives us a right (or moreso, an obligation) to spread our values and fight those who are against them. Unfortunately, this is untrue seeing as what we determine right or wrong is truly trivial when considering the weight of human lives that are lost in such gruesome events. That is not to say I am against the existence of the military. To have an unprotected nation is both foolish and deadly, even more so is it to leave obvious threats to civilization/humanity unchecked. While the saying "There are no winners in war" has merit, the addage "desperate times calls for desperate measures" must also be heeded.

On the recruitment tactics of the military:
While the actual correlation between the media's advertising of the military and the actual recruitment rates is rather low, that's not the issue that should be focused on. The amount of money spent on these advertisements is unnecessarily high, and would likely make a taxpayer balk at the thought of where there money is going.
In my opinion, the military can get by in recruiting rates just by going around to the various job fairs/career presentations that every high school holds. Realistically, the people who would likely join a branch of the military would be sufficiently accomodated to at these events, and would then be given numbers for their local recruiting office for further information.
In addition, I don't know a bout y'all, but at my school we had to take the ASVAP test that is partially a military placement test. Ever since taking it, I've gotten calls from the various branches asking if I had plans of joining. I'm quite sure any prospective military member would also be satisfied with this. (Although, those who score high on this test are the ones receiving the calls; but really, the military should be thankful for those qualified individuals, imo.)

 

[Ryfle]

that's just retarded. you realize that there are thousands of jobs in the military in which holding, much less shooting a gun are practically not even present? would you rather have your son a) be a crackhead who gives out blowjobs to guys for crack or b) let him join the military? I'm not saying that those are the only two options but the way your stance is makes it seem like you would rather choose option a! My best friend's dad works for the military and he worked in maintenance. All he did was repair and check machinery and equipment to make sure it functioned properly.

I'm pretty pro-military in a sense. I think it teaches good core values like hard work and all that shit and literally working your way up from the bottom in a career field. I'm not military but my father and grandfather were so I was basically passed down their values via being raised in a military household. I think people should hold at least 3 jobs throughout their lifetime: restaurant, retail and the military, so that they are more appreciative of the world. If you have worked in any of these 3 fields, you'll know what i'm talking about.

I actually had a talk about this with my dad today when we were out driving back from dinner / shopping. He pretty told me cut and dry, "It's fun, you'll me some interesting people and it's a lot of hard work. But it's like every other job, there is a lot of bullshit that comes with it and you'll dislike parts of it as much as you love other parts." He also told me how he felt about politicians who basically use the military as a way to score political power points (i.e. Kosovo, the Middle East, etc), but then he digressed that, "as long as the public is largely against military involvement, than most of the time it won't happen because of the threat of political suicide."

That was some what of a joke post. jrrrrrrr said he would rather see his son with a pack of cigarettes than with an army recruitment form. I'm actually enlisted in the Marines and I'm contracted for an Engineering field. When I saw that post I found it pretty ridiculous (i'm sure i'm just being biased though.) Anyways I was just trying to be sarcastic.

 

[Glen]

I agree that intelligence and impressionability are not directly related, but I believe somebody of even average intelligence should be able to "block" certain stimuli and understand what is right and wrong.

this is a tricky route to go down because you're putting joining the military into a right/wrong dichotomy, which i have tried my best to avoid doing.

As a child, my parents allowed me to watch mostly what I wanted, and I saw lots of macabre films about war and hate and murders and all that, but it didn't turn me into a violent, insane person. I think the same applies with all media. I agree that it is sad that we live in a culture that glorifies war, but I think most people can see that its just that - glorification, and that in fact war is a terrible thing. While I am not anti-military (I am neutral), I'm decidedly anti-war.

i kind of regret using that semi-personal anecdote earlier since anecdotes are kinda useless here. how you responded to stimuli as a child neither informs nor dictates how the average person responds to military propaganda.

i think i miswrote earlier. 'war-glorifying' should have been 'military-glorifying'. it is promoted as the best decision one can make if one cares about one's country, and i think that that coupled with the tremendous level of authority and esteem the organization is held in creates too much pressure.

And yes, I understand there is a lot of pressure on a teen. That is why you can't join until you are 18 and basically fully grown. Like you said, joining the military is a really big decision, but putting the age limit on it forces young people to think and consider it before jumping in. At 18 you are an adult by society's standards and can make informed and mature decisions.

uh 18 is still a teen lol. if you think you're anywhere near full-grown at 18 you are sorely mistaken. sending recruitment officers to high schools to ensconce militaristic values in 17-18 year olds (who can easily join the very next year) is hardly forcing them to think.

Basically I sympathize with you that war is awful and I really wish there didn't need to be a military! But the fact remains that war exists and we need people to fight it to keep other people alive. I really wish there could be world peace but at this point in history (and perhaps for forever) that is just pipe dreaming. If there are people out there that are willing to go, I think it is for the better. As long as there are volunteers, there are no drafts, which I think is the ultimate against free choice. By what means they get their volunteers as long as they aren't using violent force or something like that seems alright with me.

yeah this is something i will not argue with you on because a) its not the point of the thread and b) i have no argument other than 'im not sure if the end justifies the means' which is really all im willing to commit. im reticent about it only because i dont think its something anyone can really know.

Unless I'm mistaken (which I very well could be, somebody please correct me if I am, I haven't read any statistics or anything) there isn't any sort of rise in military recruitment from years in the past, at least none that I have heard of, so that indicates to me that using video games and commercials are just as effective (or ineffective, however you want to look at it) as other methods have always been.

this is a very interesting point that i haven't done much/any research on. in addition to recruitment numbers compared to years past im also curious about how long high school recruitment has been going on.

either way though it doesn't exactly make the shady actions less reprehensible in my eyes. for example if big tobacco went around giving cigarettes to children (which they used to do so i guess it isnt that farfetched lol), id find it pretty disgusting regardless of whether or not it boosted cigarette sales.

 

[Alan]

That was some what of a joke post. jrrrrrrr said he would rather see his son with a pack of cigarettes than with an army recruitment form. I'm actually enlisted in the Marines and I'm contracted for an Engineering field. When I saw that post I found it pretty ridiculous (i'm sure i'm just being biased though.) Anyways I was just trying to be sarcastic.

oh haha, my bad. usually put something like "just kidding" in white text or something.

 

[capefeather]

I think america should adopt the idea of everyone serving in the military barring medical condition's. But that's my opinion on it. It did good to me but for some of my friends they would most likely blow off their head for some of the shit I saw.

I highly dislike the idea of actively forcing someone to live through a potentially eye-opening experience, regardless of how "important" it is. Should we also freeze all of an individual's assets at a certain age and force them to live on the streets for 2-3 years, to see what it's like? That kind of thing could be a life-changing eye-opener, but I'd never wish it on anyone.

v: not sure what your point is guy

 

[Alan]

I highly dislike the idea of actively forcing someone to live through a potentially eye-opening experience, regardless of how "important" it is. Should we also freeze all of an individual's assets at a certain age and force them to live on the streets for 2-3 years, to see what it's like? That kind of thing could be a life-changing eye-opener, but I'd never wish it on anyone.

Just saying....

 

[Umbreon Dan]

If I may ask Dan, is your response based upon you following a pacifist lifestyle

i tend not to use labels (especially pretentious ones like 'pacifist') but otherwise i guess so? i honestly don't understand how people can call themselves sane if they don't have a moral issue with hurting other people...

(which can be solved by the thousands of military jobs that do not require you to hold, let alone fire a gun)

am i the only one who thinks this is total bullshit? supporting the military is supporting the military. it really doesn't matter much if you're the one who builds the gun or the one who fires it.

Just saying....

i find the draft entertaining because they only wind up recruiting people who are too stupid to evade it x)

 

[jumpluff]

i find the draft entertaining because they only wind up recruiting people who are too stupid to evade it x)

Or want to fight for their country. You might call that stupid. I don't, though I find conscription abhorrent and if I was called up to fight (unlikely, as a) I would automatically fail any medical, and b) conscription in my nation was male-only before it was abolished) you best believe I'd draft dodge.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

if people wanted to "fight for their country" they would have signed up prior to being asked. if you haven't signed up by the time they come for you, it's because you don't want to.

 

[User 40136]

Sorry OP but you are way overreacting to this. The military has to advertise, doens't it? What's the difference between the military advertising, or say, a cigarrette or beer commercial?

 

[capefeather]

You're not exactly making a good case by comparing it to beer and cigarettes...

 

[Iamslow]

When I was younger I wanted to join the military. It wasn't because the recruiters at my school told me it was great, it wasn't because I would always see the overly dramatic commercials on T.V, and it certainly wasn't because they made a mediocre video game. At least in my case, it didn't even have anything to do with the advertising.

Military service is obviously incredibly dangerous. It's no secret. I really don't think the advertising could make anyone think otherwise without even the slightest doubt.

 

[verbatim]

i tend not to use labels (especially pretentious ones like 'pacifist') but otherwise i guess so? i honestly don't understand how people can call themselves sane if they don't have a moral issue with hurting other people...

It is my personal opinion that situations can and do exist where hurting others is perfectly acceptable (protecting your family from a home invader), but I highly doubt I can make you change your mind on the military (your opinion is your own) so I won't.

am i the only one who thinks this is total bullshit? supporting the military is supporting the military. it really doesn't matter much if you're the one who builds the gun or the one who fires it.

Again, this comes down to weather or not you accept the military complex as a whole. Again I'm not going to debate you on this. I have (what I believe to be) logical reasons for supporting the military, and you have (what you believe to be) logical reasons for not supporting it, and, chances are, neither of us are going to change our minds.

And yes, I understand there is a lot of pressure on a teen. That is why you can't join until you are 18 and basically fully grown. Like you said, joining the military is a really big decision, but putting the age limit on it forces young people to think and consider it before jumping in. At 18 you are an adult by society's standards and can make informed and mature decisions.

Socially you are correct, however one's brain does not stop developing until you are in your 30's.

 

[Nastyjungle]

Socially you are correct, however one's brain does not stop developing until you are in your 30's.

Yes, so let's not let people make any big decisions for themselves until they are 30+.

I'm not trying to say people are completely mature at 18. I'm trying to say that (in my opinion) people are mature enough at 18 to think and make informed decisions. Fully grown was perhaps the wrong choice of words.

 

[verbatim]

Fare enough. You are defiantly capable of making educated decisions at the age of 18.

 

[Son of Disaster]

I'm in the Army National Guard as an interrogator. I want to address those saying i wasn't ready to make an informed decision to join the military. I actually joined at 17 which meant i had to get my parents approval. Before that i researched which branches i would want to join thoroughly and i chose my own career path. The military has a ridiculous amount of jobs to choose from and a lot can be guaranteed if you pass the required training. I chose military intelligence because it opens a lot of doors on the civilian side and because for my guard unit, language proficiency is a requirement, so i got to choose to learn Japanese. In fact i even received full salary and benefits to study it for a year and a half in Monterey.

Anyway the point is even at seventeen i was able to make my decision carefully over a period of a few months with no obligation until i signed my contract. Its asinine to say that 18 year olds aren't mature enough to make their own decisions at that point. And i certainly was not influenced by retarded ads and bad video games. I have loved the three years I've been in and it really has been a great experience. Obviously it's not for everyone and i don't recommend anyone join unless they fully research it themselves. But "teenagers" of that age are fully capable to make a military commitment. Contracts can be as short as three years in some cases as well. And the chances of you seeing combat in any jobs besides combat arms and direct support is pretty low. You are more likely to die in an automobile as a service member than in war.

Also the ads are fine. I have not known one person in the military who joined because of ads and games. In fact the biggest draw is college assistance.

 

[verbatim]

You are more likely to die in an automobile as a service member than in war.

Reflect upon that. And personally, I'd say you could make these big decisions as early as 16... maybe 14.

 

[User 40136]

You're not exactly making a good case by comparing it to beer and cigarettes...

Why not? In the OP's head, (and I guess Glen's) all 3 of those should be bad. Why is military the one getting picked on?

 

[capefeather]

Talking about military advertising tends to promote more discussion than talking about beer/cigarette advertising. In any case, neglecting to complain about beer/cigarette commercials doesn't amount to any kind of opinion on them. (I actually don't remember seeing any cigarette commercials in a very long time, but maybe that's just because of where I live.)

 

[Steamroll]

lol, Cigarette companies have been banned from advertising since the 90's... Alcohol was pretty close to the same situation too but congress settled on raising minimum age to 21 to make up for it.

 

[jumpluff]

Why not? In the OP's head, (and I guess Glen's) all 3 of those should be bad. Why is military the one getting picked on?

I'm not Glen, but I'm going to guess:

a) This thread is about military advertisement
b) Given a), his disapproval doesn't preclude disapproval of any other kind of advertising

 

[billymills]

I think it's fine as long as it doesn't target ages that are too low. The military has to advertise, and this just seems like an intelligent advertising scheme. Really 13+ should be fine (the canadian military has a cadets program starting at that about that age iirc).

I will be one of the last few people in this thread to say that joining the military is a good decision, but I don't see any problems with a new marketing strategy.