Ladder Almost Any Ability

[Laxpras]

Announcing Poison Heal Suspect

​

The last suspect produced the ban of two mainstays of AAA: Snorlax and Suicune. Unfortunately, these did not change the meta as we had hoped. New threats, such as Manaphy just took the place of Lax and Cune. Additionally, we are rethinking how we go about banning pokemon and abilities in AAA; rather than banning a significant amount of pokemon due to them being too dangerous with a certain ability, we would like to consider if the ability itself is broken. It is for these reasons that the AAA council is starting a suspect of Poison Heal.

Poison Heal provides great passive recovery, and makes the user immune to status, making it one of the most threatening and most common abilities in the meta. Banning the ability would likely significantly alter how AAA is played, as Poison Heal can turn so many pokemon into defensive walls, setup sweepers, or great utility threats. The members of our council are unsure of our position on banning it, but we all agree on suspecting it. For this reason as well as the possible magnitude of the change, the decision will be given to you, the community.

• The suspect will last from now up until 12 PM EST, 3rd of October.
• The suspect will take place on Pokemon Showdown!'s AAA ladder, with Poison Heal being banned for the duration of the suspect.
• To qualify, you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2600, with COIL's B value being 6.
• The account on which you ladder for the requirement must have the term "PHS" (Poison Heal Suspect) in the username, with all letters being together. Any account without PHS in the name will not be valid to place a vote.
• After having achieved the requirement, private message me a screenshot containing proof of the ownership of your account and your account's COIL value, in addition to your vote.
• Your vote will be a Yes, No, or Abstain answer to "Should Poison Heal be banned?".
• At the end of the vote, if Poison Heal obtains at least a 60% pro-ban majority, it will be banned.
• If the vote ends with Poison Heal being banned, the council will likely reconsider the Snorlax and Suicune bans. If you have an opinion on this, feel free to provide it in this thread. If we see a split of opinions regarding this, we may also open this up to a later suspect.

The COIL settings are reasonably low compared to most suspects to accommodate the rather inactive ladder. Here is an approximation of how many games you will need to play to qualify, based on your GXE:

GXE vs Games

GXE N
90 13
85 16
80 20
75 30
70 55
It will be very difficult to get the requirements if your GXE is below 70, and near impossible under 68.

To PM me: Click on my forum avatar and then select "create a conversation"

Side Note: As I said, we are reconsidering how we do bans for the meta. For this reason, it is possible that the meta will later see a suspect of abilities like Adaptability, Tough Claws, and Tinted Lens. If any of these suspects occur, and bans are then preffered, the meta could see a shift toward more banned abilities but less banned pokemon, like Mamoswine and Terrakion. However, this may not occur as SuMo is fast approaching, and we would like the meta to settle down if any changes happen regarding Poison Heal.

The Immortal

 

[dusk raimon]

So I've just finished getting reqs a few days ago, and I do feel like PH deserves a ban, however on the subject of Snorlax and Suicune I have mixed opinions.

Firstly Snorlax. Snorlax was a very prominent threat in the AAA metagame, however it's most viable ability, and basically the only viable one it could run, is about to possibly be banned. Without poison heal Snorlax will be no where near as viable as it once was, since it really enjoys the extra recovery PH gives. It also appreciates the effective immunity to status as a set up sweeper. Through the use of poison heal facade and curse snorlax was able to win many games from the back of the party as it was unable to be phazed out or statused and it set up to +6 and proceeded to sweep teams. However without poison heal snorlax would be far easier to wear down and be far less threatening in general. On the topic of other abilities it could run, there aren't really many. Its niche was poison heal sweeper with facade, however it was extremely good at this and a very threatening mon in general. Without PH Snorlax will be a mediocre mon at best and its best sets would become memes and in general, unreliable. It could run prankster rest sleep talk curse facade to try and recreate a semi decent status immune sweeper, however this would be much, much worse in comparison to its predecessor- poison heal. So if poison heal is banned i would say unban snorlax.

However suicune is a whole other kettle of fish.

Suicune was just as much banned for its abuse of PH as snorlax, as a strong calm mind abuser which was immune to status (effectively) and could 6-0 unprepared teams. However it wasn't limited to just running poison heal like Snorlax. Suicune could run other abilities very effectively, such as unaware which allowed it to be a premier unaware wall due to its incredible mixed bulk and decent stats across the range. Suicune also possesses the most stupid move ever invented, also known as (free burns) scald. This many not seem like a reason to ban it, and it isn't, but suicune has a far better movepool than snorlax in terms of being more versatile, as it is able to function effectively outside of just using poison heal, unlike snorlax. Suicune also doesn't need poison heal to allow it to beat some common attackers as it has great mixed bulk all round anyway. Coupled with the fact it isn't as limited as snorlax in terms of what is viable on it, it is easy to see why Suicune would be far better than Snorlax without poison heal in the meta. I believe Suicune should stay banned as it can function very well on stall and could potentially be broken as a tool for stall, as it is very versatile and could fill a lot of roles. But then again it would be interesting to see how suicune functions without PH and i may be wrong and it won't be broken at all. But at this juncture i feel like it would be very, very good at the least in the meta if it is unbanned.

tl;dr snorlax sucks without PH, suicune is rly good without PH, even better with it of course, not sure if it should stay banned or not post PH meta

 

[Hilomilo]

I'm not really sure what's happened with the vr, but it seems as though it could most definitely be updated and open for replies again, seeing as how a lot of meta game changes in the bans of Suicune and Snorlax have happened, and new sets for certain pokemon have popped up. Overall, the VR doesn't look as accurate what with banned pokemon on it, and also with competitive Mega Ampharos and tough claws Pangoro as high as B+. If no one's going to open up the old thread, can I at least get some clarification as to why it's been closed?

 

[Laxpras]

I'm not really sure what's happened with the vr, but it seems as though it could most definitely be updated and open for replies again, seeing as how a lot of meta game changes in the bans of Suicune and Snorlax have happened, and new sets for certain pokemon have popped up. Overall, the VR doesn't look as accurate what with banned pokemon on it, and also with competitive Mega Ampharos and tough claws Pangoro as high as B+. If no one's going to open up the old thread, can I at least get some clarification as to why it's been closed?

I'm not exactly sure what VR you're looking at, but its not the current one. We updated the AAA VR very recently, you can find it here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/almost-any-ability-resources.3578707/#post-6931329

 

[Sylveon.]

Tbh, I too believe PH should be just banned, I haven't got the time to get the reqs but having played the meta successfully during the meta containing ph lax and cune in almost every team that ability is just too useful, making someone with no recovery like lax really hard to take down. I mean you protect one turn and you just gain 1/4th of your health is rubbish while not to forget that most of the mons on which poison heal is used have fantastic natural bulk. This in fact forced me to run something as weird as unaware celebi as my rock setter, when I could have literally anything on my team.
To summarize, I feel since ORAS meta is concluding we should ban it, it'll be like a trial version of meta, where who knows if people can come up with new sets and even allows something like snorlax which in first place never should have banned without PH, to again resurface into the meta.(Wait for my guts snorlax if that thing is unbanned :) )

 

[Racool]

Honestly, I get that PH can be a real pain especially if the mon has set up some defenses... but I personally dont think it should be banned. My reasons behind this are are:
1) Without lax and suicune, it isnt an unstoppable force. The best PH mons are manaphy and florges now, and manaphy doesnt have a form of recovery like wish or synthesis. I agree that they are still really good and most teams have one or the other, but they are not nearly as good as lax or suicune. Most good teams run a very strong physical attacker of some sorts, usually with banded adaptability or touch claws, which break through florges very easily, while manaphy can be broken through a strong physical or special attacker as it doesnt set up its defenses. i personally run adaptability chomp, which absolutely destroys florges, while specs adaptability raikou takes out manaphy with even volt switch.
2) Its Almost ANY ABILITY, no point banning an ability unless its unbelievably broken, much better to just ban the mon (as was done with suicune and lax). I get how abilities such as huge power, parental bond, and wonder guard are just silly, but PH is nowhere near as broken as those abilities, as ive shown above.
3) PH manaphy is like the only reason Ive beaten laxlapras xD(even if it was complete scald hax, i still have a soft spot for it xP)
Overall, I wouldnt be surprised if PH is banned at all, given the opposition to it, but i just dont see the point in banning an entire ability unless it is undeniably broken and ruining the metagame, and even then, it would be much better to ban specific mons if at all possible (again i get that thats not possible with abilities such as huge power). Ive laddered quite a lot in aaa, and have topped it a few times, although lax keeps overtaking me:(, and I honestly havent found PH very hard to deal with. However this is just my opinion, so pls dont get mad at me if you disagree.

 

[Laxpras]

Honestly, I get that PH can be a real pain especially if the mon has set up some defenses... but I personally dont think it should be banned. My reasons behind this are are:
1) Without lax and suicune, it isnt an unstoppable force. The best PH mons are manaphy and florges now, and manaphy doesnt have a form of recovery like wish or synthesis. I agree that they are still really good and most teams have one or the other, but they are not nearly as good as lax or suicune. Most good teams run a very strong physical attacker of some sorts, usually with banded adaptability or touch claws, which break through florges very easily, while manaphy can be broken through a strong physical or special attacker as it doesnt set up its defenses. i personally run adaptability chomp, which absolutely destroys florges, while specs adaptability raikou takes out manaphy with even volt switch.
2) Its Almost ANY ABILITY, no point banning an ability unless its unbelievably broken, much better to just ban the mon (as was done with suicune and lax). I get how abilities such as huge power, parental bond, and wonder guard are just silly, but PH is nowhere near as broken as those abilities, as ive shown above.
3) PH manaphy is like the only reason Ive beaten laxlapras xD(even if it was complete scald hax, i still have a soft spot for it xP)
Overall, I wouldnt be surprised if PH is banned at all, given the opposition to it, but i just dont see the point in banning an entire ability unless it is undeniably broken and ruining the metagame, and even then, it would be much better to ban specific mons if at all possible (again i get that thats not possible with abilities such as huge power). Ive laddered quite a lot in aaa, and have topped it a few times, although lax keeps overtaking me:(, and I honestly havent found PH very hard to deal with. However this is just my opinion, so pls dont get mad at me if you disagree.

A few things,

The best PH mons are manaphy and florges now

Manaphy is without a doubt the best. I would say the second best is Diancie. Blissey, Florges, Blastoise, Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, and really any bulky mon are still very good with PH.

while manaphy can be broken through a strong physical or special attacker as it doesnt set up its defenses

Manaphy can a crocune set on steroids: Calm Mind, Acid Armor, Scald, Protect/Ice Beam/Knock Off/Energy Ball

i just dont see the point in banning an entire ability unless it is undeniably broken and ruining the metagame, and even then, it would be much better to ban specific mons

How far do we go? We just banned Suicune and Snorlax. Do we ban Manaphy now, taking away its use as a motor drive/regen user as well?
The reason Manaphy is ridiculously strong now is because Suicune and Snorlax, which help check it, are gone. This is just a chain reaction here. If we ban Manaphy, something else would take over the metagame, my guess is Diancie, as it has ridiculous bulk, great typing, and with Suicune and Manaphy gone there aren't many viable Water types let to stop it.

My point is: Cune/Lax were broken with PH, Manaphy is broken with PH, Diancie may become broken with PH, something after that may become broken with PH. How far do we have to go, how many mons will we ban? To me, it seems as though the problem is PH, not the individual mons.

That said, the vote is very close and people are changing votes both ways so it will come down to very end.

 

[motherlove]

So yeah since I kinda, sorta proposed the PH suspect in the first place I thought I might as well paraphrase what I said in the convo to give anyone interested a bit of insight on the suspect.

So as you all know we suspected and consequently banned Snorlax and Suicune because we came to the conclusion that we needed better standards for banning and were gonna go for Pokemon bans instead of ability bans from now on. LaxCune was broken because of PH, I think everybody was aware of that, but maybe banning them would solve the issue.
Looking back that was kind of a stupid decision (imo) because it didn't solve shit and just made PH more widespread so you don't know for what Pokemon to prepare yourself. And if anything it just made it more obvious that LaxCune wasn't the issue, Poison Heal was.

After the LaxCune ban a bunch of other PH set up sweeper have risen with Manaphy being the best and most popular one. It can run three sets effectively, bulky max Satk tail glow with koff, bulky max Satk tail glow with energy ball and max defence cm + acid armor all three of them being ridiculously good as it has the stat to switch and set up on any somewhat passive mon, set up at absolutely no cost whatsoever and the reliable ways to beat it are few and far between, it's extremely hard to deal with it on a defensive team and insanely hard to pressure on any other team as it regains its health so fast, it's immune to status and doesn't really care about hazards.
So the logical solution here would be to suspect Manaphy right? It's not that simple, Manaphy is just the current trend, but other than that, literally any somewhat bulky set up sweeper is rather ridiculous with poison heal for the same reasons I mentioned above, it's ridiculously hard to pressure, gets numerous set up opportunities and on top of that, drains so much momentum since in most cases you have to go in your counter (assuming you have one) as soon as the PH mon enters the field (if you don't have one it might as well be game over).

The latest I tried was Poison Heal Blissey as an answer to the rise of Poison Heal Manaphy (and Volcanion) without thinking too much of it. And it ended up winning so many games by itself with little support, I've had success with it on the ladder and against experienced players. But that's only brushing the surface of PH. The pool of bulky set up it quite huge and probably vastly unexplored, taunt virizon has been amazing for the time I ran it despite it's shit stats, Zygarde can 6-0 a lot of teams that don't have skarmory (and even that can be dealt with), Ttar can set up so many times through a battle, same with Diancie who gets a free CM against any bird, bulky Braviary can outpower or just outstall a lot of his counters and even shit mons like Throh or Lickylicky become threatening with Poison Heal. That's only for bulky set up, a lot of support mon are impossible to wear down and super reliable just because of poison heal, Blastoise became the best spinner in the meta almost instantly, Sylveon is a free pivot and wishpass on anything, I don't need to tell you what Azumarill does you probably lost to it at least once. The utility that poison heal provides is far too much for not only the cost it has (only the item slot and a move slot most of the time), but also compared to any other ability. A regenerator can be pressure via status, poison heal can't, a magic bounce Mon can be worn down, poison heal can't, Unaware can't recover if it's Taunted, Poison Heal can.

Really a lot of AAA matchups usually go down to "what PH mon wins", and PH also ended up being the prime switchin to other PH, there's a bunch of cancerous replay (there's at least one in OMPL) of Suicune being used as Lax switchin and Lax being used as Suicune switchin or Azumaril switching on Cune and Cune switching on Azu. Lax described the meta as being "smoother" without PH on the suspect ladder and I can see why, Poison heal is a HUGE momentum drain, it literally brings the game to a halt until the poison heal mons switches out. It's easy af to use and there's very little counterplay to it except hard counters. It's matchup based, boring and overpowered with close to no opportunity cost or drawback, it's splashable on almost anything and just makes some battles unending.

So yeah that's why I proposed the ban, take it as you want.

 

[Racool]

But (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't the point of aaa that underrated mon (like throh) can become good with a good ability? PH is a very good ability, there is no denying that, but is it rlly as unstoppable as you seem to be making it out to be? Just picking an example here, perish trap PH azu gets destroyed by any stab'ed volt switch, and it's very easy to predict the whirlpool tbh, so just sub zapdos or raikou in. The only mon I can accept is on the borderline of being too good and ban-worthy is probs manaphy, and even then, as I explained before, it can be countered by deso victini, tran, or virtually any rlly strong electric type (I reccomend raikou). Furthermore, I have yet to come across an acid armour calm mind manaphy, but that just might be due to the fact that most ppl on the ladder are nubs, and even then, deso tran would wall it, and ppl ran deso tran way before manaphy even became the threat it is. I understand that almost every team had a PH mon, but on a similar line almost every team has an adaptability mon. Just because an ability is good doesn't mean it needs a ban, otherwise this won't be Almost any ability. After all, there will always be certain abilities that outshine most others, and these will be very overused, but that's just part of the game imo. So long as the ability isn't purely unstoppable I don't think it should be banned, and clearly the reason for this split in opinions is because many people feel PH is unstoppable, while others do not.

Either way I doubt this post will carry much significance as the suspect test is nearly over, and ban seems to have won it. Furthermore I doubt this ban will be very significant either as it will be unbanned with sumo anyways.

 

[Sylveon.]

But (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't the point of aaa that underrated mon (like throh) can become good with a good ability? PH is a very good ability, there is no denying that, but is it rlly as unstoppable as you seem to be making it out to be? Just picking an example here, perish trap PH azu gets destroyed by any stab'ed volt switch, and it's very easy to predict the whirlpool tbh, so just sub zapdos or raikou in. The only mon I can accept is on the borderline of being too good and ban-worthy is probs manaphy, and even then, as I explained before, it can be countered by deso victini, tran, or virtually any rlly strong electric type (I reccomend raikou). Furthermore, I have yet to come across an acid armour calm mind manaphy, but that just might be due to the fact that most ppl on the ladder are nubs, and even then, deso tran would wall it, and ppl ran deso tran way before manaphy even became the threat it is. I understand that almost every team had a PH mon, but on a similar line almost every team has an adaptability mon. Just because an ability is good doesn't mean it needs a ban, otherwise this won't be Almost any ability. After all, there will always be certain abilities that outshine most others, and these will be very overused, but that's just part of the game imo. So long as the ability isn't purely unstoppable I don't think it should be banned, and clearly the reason for this split in opinions is because many people feel PH is unstoppable, while others do not.

Either way I doubt this post will carry much significance as the suspect test is nearly over, and ban seems to have won it. Furthermore I doubt this ban will be very significant either as it will be unbanned with sumo anyways.

Tbh, it isn't that easy to break through a PH mon by just using your wall-breaker or any specific counters because remember there are finally 5 more mons you have to beat at the same time and since most PH mons have protect it is pretty easy to scout for opponents moves and move over to suitable counter. Lets take the example of your desolate land victini, I with my manaphy scout whatever move you use, then if I have a hard counter then I switch onto that, or I if I don't I sacrifice one mon and then bring my scarf adaptability ttar and just pursuit trap your tini. So, now what stops my PH manaphy from sweeping your team. Obviously there are wall-breakers and they are named aptly just because they break through most "walls" but that should not be the reason to not ban PH, as PH is an ability which automatically wins you the match if your opponent somehow messes up his play and doesn't have a counter. That's what made cune & lax so centralising and even after banning them we still see that you again have to prepare for PH mons specifically(that's not the case with other abilities) or you just auto-lose most of the times.
Also, from a different point of view don't you want to see a meta when you get to see 'Almost Any Ability' on the respective PH mons. And with Sun and Moon coming, imo it'll be ideal time to ban this ability to see how the meta revolves without PH.

 

[Laxpras]

Poison Heal Suspect Results

​

Voted Ban:

5

LaxLapras (PHS Broccoli) Also for your proof here are my reqs: http://prnt.sc/cmdjgn
Motherlove (motherPHS)
Betathunder (PHSBetathunder)
E4 Flint (PHSE4Flint)
VoltDarkai (PHSVolt)

Voted Do not Ban:

4

The Immortal (PHSFire)
Racool (RacoolPHS)
Quantum Tesseract (PHSQTesseract)
Dusk Raimon (PHS Raimon)

Ban got the majority of votes with 55.56%, however, it failed to reach the required ban majority of 60%.
Poison Heal remains unbanned in AAA.

The Immortal

​

 

[Laxpras]

When AAA thread turns into Laxpras post thread

Aerilate has been unbanned from AAA, and Dragonite will be quickbanned.

​

This is the result of a unanimous council vote. We feel as though Aerilate is not broken as an ability, but there are simply a few broken users of it. Dragonite is the clear dominant force with Aerilate, and we have agreed that an Aerilate-boosted STAB extreme speed is too powerful for the meta, and thus we are banning it. Noivern is also incredibly threatening with a great speed stat and a Aerilate-boosted STAB Boomburst. We are leaning toward banning Noivern as well, but we will at least give Noivern a chance. If you have any opinions on Noivern, or how this unban will alter the meta, please offer them in this thread.

The Immortal

As a kickstart to building with these changes in mind:

• Touch Claws Choice Band Dragonite is gone, look for Tyranitar, Darmanitan, Garchomp, and Lando-T to replace it as powerful physical wallbreakers
• Noivern, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Gyarados and Salamence all gain powerful STABs now boosted by Aerilate, increasing their viability
• Flying resists such as the already prevalent Zapdos, Skarmory, Tyranitar, and Doublade will likely become even more common.

 

[Hilomilo]

In my honest opinion, as crazy as it may sound to some, it'd be a better idea to me to ban aerilate on Dragonite and Noivern than ban the pokemon entirely from the metagame. I'm a frequent user of tough claws Dragonite, and am extremely disappointed in realizing that I can't use it just because another ability is broken on it. The same goes for pixilate Noivern (a set I toggle with every now and then). Overall, aerilate on Noivern and Dragonite sounds horribly unhealthy, but those mons with other abilities aren't, so please just make some sort of clause or ban on the use of aerilate on these two.

 

[Lcass4919]

When AAA thread turns into Laxpras post thread

Aerilate has been unbanned from AAA, and Dragonite will be quickbanned.

​

This is the result of a unanimous council vote. We feel as though Aerilate is not broken as an ability, but there are simply a few broken users of it. Dragonite is the clear dominant force with Aerilate, and we have agreed that an Aerilate-boosted STAB extreme speed is too powerful for the meta, and thus we are banning it. Noivern is also incredibly threatening with a great speed stat and a Aerilate-boosted STAB Boomburst. We are leaning toward banning Noivern as well, but we will at least give Noivern a chance. If you have any opinions on Noivern, or how this unban will alter the meta, please offer them in this thread.

The Immortal

As a kickstart to building with these changes in mind:

• Touch Claws Choice Band Dragonite is gone, look for Tyranitar, Darmanitan, Garchomp, and Lando-T to replace it as powerful physical wallbreakers
• Noivern, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Gyarados and Salamence all gain powerful STABs now boosted by Aerilate, increasing their viability
• Flying resists such as the already prevalent Zapdos, Skarmory, Tyranitar, and Doublade will likely become even more common.

everybody run its the end of the world. dogs and cats living togeather mass hysteria.

all jokes aside (heh) this will be a positive change overall, since we mostly banned aeri due to dnite, and kind of noivern. this gives a LOT of meh pokemon a chance to shine, like landorus(who will probably become one of the best mons in the meta tbch) and thundurus finally can use its flying stab to good use. and yeah..noivern...idk if noiv will live up to its hype. since stall has chansey and regenvesters, and offense literally has espeeders up the wazoo. only time will tell.

just realise we are indeed NOT crazy, and we did think LONG and hard on this choice. also no. we cant ban dnite and noiv alone with aeri, because thats complex banning, and one could argue the case for EVERY pokemon.

 

[Josh]

In my honest opinion, as crazy as it may sound to some, it'd be a better idea to me to ban aerilate on Dragonite and Noivern than ban the pokemon entirely from the metagame. I'm a frequent user of tough claws Dragonite, and am extremely disappointed in realizing that I can't use it just because another ability is broken on it. The same goes for pixilate Noivern (a set I toggle with every now and then). Overall, aerilate on Noivern and Dragonite sounds horribly unhealthy, but those mons with other abilities aren't, so please just make some sort of clause or ban on the use of aerilate on these two.

Unfortunately complex banning a pokemon + ability isn't really an option, as nice as it sounds. Slippery slope etc etc, we could ban certain abilities on almost every banned pokemon and make them not broken. It sucks losing tough claws dnite, I agree, I liked it too and dnite is one of my fav mons, but it's not an option to keep it and just ban Aerilate on it.

 

[Sylveon.]

When AAA thread turns into Laxpras post thread

Aerilate has been unbanned from AAA, and Dragonite will be quickbanned.

​

This is the result of a unanimous council vote. We feel as though Aerilate is not broken as an ability, but there are simply a few broken users of it. Dragonite is the clear dominant force with Aerilate, and we have agreed that an Aerilate-boosted STAB extreme speed is too powerful for the meta, and thus we are banning it. Noivern is also incredibly threatening with a great speed stat and a Aerilate-boosted STAB Boomburst. We are leaning toward banning Noivern as well, but we will at least give Noivern a chance. If you have any opinions on Noivern, or how this unban will alter the meta, please offer them in this thread.

The Immortal

As a kickstart to building with these changes in mind:

• Touch Claws Choice Band Dragonite is gone, look for Tyranitar, Darmanitan, Garchomp, and Lando-T to replace it as powerful physical wallbreakers
• Noivern, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Gyarados and Salamence all gain powerful STABs now boosted by Aerilate, increasing their viability
• Flying resists such as the already prevalent Zapdos, Skarmory, Tyranitar, and Doublade will likely become even more common.

Tbh, I just don't understand the point of this heavy metagame change when we are basically at the end of ORAS + banning one or two pokemons who are just fine for the meta just to give something like aerilate a chance to comeback when virtually everything is going to get unbanned in about a month. Dragonite was no-where near broken and just banning it because of suddenly aerialate coming back onto the meta sounds harsh.
This is the same thing we did with stuff like snorlax and suicune, rather than banning the cancer that is poison heal we banned two abusers of it, only to start discussion whether to ban the ability itself because after that new pokemons like manaphy just resurfaced as potential abusers. So, sorry if I sound rude or something, but I can't see this introduction of aerialate as any different(as how powerful neutral flying coverage is).

 

[Josh]

Manaphy might be the issue honestly. Not gonna pretend I'm a top aaa player but in standard ou it's amazing and that's without caring about item or ability (lefties is nice and cm rd rest breaks stall but neither are anywhere near amazing). Here aaa patches Manaphy's biggest flaw in a pretty shit ability slot, so ph is good and all but mana has a ton of other good sets too, and it's all combined that makes it so dangerous, not just poison heal. If someone wants to make a better post feel free but I'd support a Manaphy ban.

 

[Lcass4919]

Tbh, I just don't understand the point of this heavy metagame change when we are basically at the end of ORAS + banning one or two pokemons who are just fine for the meta just to give something like aerilate a chance to comeback when virtually everything is going to get unbanned in about a month. Dragonite was no-where near broken and just banning it because of suddenly aerialate coming back onto the meta sounds harsh.
This is the same thing we did with stuff like snorlax and suicune, rather than banning the cancer that is poison heal we banned two abusers of it, only to start discussion whether to ban the ability itself because after that new pokemons like manaphy just resurfaced as potential abusers. So, sorry if I sound rude or something, but I can't see this introduction of aerialate as any different(as how powerful neutral flying coverage is).

because this will be carried over to the next generation. and gen 6 bh will likely remain relivant for awhile until we get full info, in which its still pretty crutial that we dont just "abandon" this meta just because shiny new toys are out. otherwise theres no reason to even really keep these metas, which arguably some people might prefer this one or something.

were you around in the dnite meta? doesnt sound like you were considering dnite had hardly no counters, and literally 0 checks. it was literally ran on 90% of teams, and teams had to run 2 counters/checks to just be able to handle it. dragonite was FAR beyond broken. like, the thought of you even saying its not dumbfounds me. you look at mons like zygarde and lucario, and entei, who are top tier revenge killing threats...and meanwhile dnite has better coverage, better offensive stab, its just outright stronger then the three, and even has STAB on espeed. and this is just on paper, as i said, on practice, it was ran on over 90% of teams, and on top of that people ran 2 or more mons just to handle it. the meta looks no different, and it would be a complete waste of time to let it back in, just to see the exact same results.

and as i said before, this has been brought up a LOT of times in the past, talking like, march here. and the reason we pulled through is the entire council agreed that the ban was a bit "cutting corners" and needed to be fixed. we dont have to scrap this metagame JUST because sumo is just around the corner.

im not trying to sound rude myself, so sorry if it came out that way,(im super tired from working a night shift at the hospital) so im just in a "grumpy mood". you bring up valid points, and i just kind of wanted to clear a few things up. but debating and being tired doesnt really mix well lol.

 

[Sylveon.]

because this will be carried over to the next generation. and gen 6 bh will likely remain relivant for awhile until we get full info, in which its still pretty crutial that we dont just "abandon" this meta just because shiny new toys are out. otherwise theres no reason to even really keep these metas, which arguably some people might prefer this one or something.

were you around in the dnite meta? doesnt sound like you were considering dnite had hardly no counters, and literally 0 checks. it was literally ran on 90% of teams, and teams had to run 2 counters/checks to just be able to handle it. dragonite was FAR beyond broken. like, the thought of you even saying its not dumbfounds me. you look at mons like zygarde and lucario, and entei, who are top tier revenge killing threats...and meanwhile dnite has better coverage, better offensive stab, its just outright stronger then the three, and even has STAB on espeed. and this is just on paper, as i said, on practice, it was ran on over 90% of teams, and on top of that people ran 2 or more mons just to handle it. the meta looks no different, and it would be a complete waste of time to let it back in, just to see the exact same results.

and as i said before, this has been brought up a LOT of times in the past, talking like, march here. and the reason we pulled through is the entire council agreed that the ban was a bit "cutting corners" and needed to be fixed. we dont have to scrap this metagame JUST because sumo is just around the corner.

im not trying to sound rude myself, so sorry if it came out that way,(im super tired from working a night shift at the hospital) so im just in a "grumpy mood". you bring up valid points, and i just kind of wanted to clear a few things up. but debating and being tired doesnt really mix well lol.

No, I get your point, but I wasn't against banning aerialate d-nite.
I was saying that there is no point banning d-nite just to keep aerialate in the metagame. Flying itself is an excellent offensive typing. We had played most of the 6th gen without aerialate so imo there is no point unbanning it now. What it costs this metagame is that 2 very viable pokemon who somehow after the aerialate meta managed to come with new sets(i.e. tough claws for d-nite specially) and still remain viable.
This is why I was supporting PH ban as the whole point of this game should be about pokemon, there are and always be plenty of abilities to work around, no denying that, and that's how the meta-game evolves rather than bringing back old abilities and banning pokemon themselves. I am sure most of us would agree someone like snorlax was no where near broken but it was just banned due to the silliness, that is Poison Heal.
It takes no genius to figure out how OP aerialate D-nite is, whether you have played this meta or not and I understand it could be difficult for pokemon specific bans, I was just against Aerialate unbanning so late this gen.

 

[motherlove]

AAA is about abilities tho, banning an ability should be a last resort kinda scenario and in Aerilate's case it wasn't, it was a premature decision based on one Pokemon's dominance of the meta.
I don't think when we unban it matters, as long as it's the right thing to do, which we believe it is.