Aggron: Discussion

Is Aggron the Rhyperior of UU?

  • Yes

    Votes: 56 45.2%

  • No

    Votes: 68 54.8%
  • Total voters
    124

Yoko Rains

Please read the post before posting. =D

I've been recently trying to assemble a "not-so-OU" team, and while looking at UU/BL Pokemon with good defenses, I noticed our favorite "rhino"; Aggron. I decided to examine his stats and movepool a bit more closely:

306.png
Aggron:

HP: 70
Attack: 110
Defense: 180
Sp. Attack: 60
Sp. Defense: 60
Speed: 50

Total: 530

When I saw his stats, I was quite surprised. In fact, they looked quite similar to another "rhino's" stats; Rhyperior!

464.png
Rhyperior:

HP: 115
Attack: 140
Defense: 130
Sp. Attack: 55
Sp. Defense: 55
Speed: 40

Total: 535

However, I noticed Rhyperior was OU instead of UU, and was quite surprised, as the differences between the two was quite small. Therefore I decided to list the advantages one has over the other:

Rhyperior

- STAB Earthquakes

Can't deny the usefulness of this. Earthquake is one of the most OU if not the most OU move out there. Getting STAB on this move is a huge bonus.

- Higher Attack

Rhyperior's base attack is 140, while Aggron's is 110.

- Higher HP

Rhyperior also has higher HP than Aggron

- Solid Rock Ability

Rhyperior has Solid Rock as an ability, something which Aggron doesn't have.

- More Coverage

Megahorn, Aggron doesn't get that.

- Stat Up moves

Swords Dance, don't expect doing this too much, though. Base 40 speed remember.

Now that Rhyperior's pros have been recognized, lets check out Aggron's:


Aggron

- STAB Steel Moves

Aggron may not get STAB Earthquake, but he gets STAB on Steel moves (Iron Tail, Metal Burst, etc). Just something worth pointing out.

- Higher Defense

Though Rhyperior has higher attack, Aggron has higher defense, with a base of 180 defense, while Rhyperior with only 130.

- Higher in all other stats

Rhyperior may have the lead on Aggron in Attack and HP, but Aggron has higher Speed, Special Attack, and Special Defense. This point may not really be worth mentioning, but I just decided to say it lol, some people may want a SpecsAggron (god forbid) =D

- Status Inflicter:

Thunder Wav FTW (Rhyperior doesn't get that).

- Less Weaknesses

This is another thing that really caught my eye. Both "rhinos" have two quad weaknesses, but Rhyperior has more double weaknesses across the board. Lets check it out:

Aggron:

- 2x Water
- 4x Fighting
- 4x Ground

Rhyperior:

- 4x Water
- 4x Grass
- 2x Ice
- 2x Fighting
- 2x Ground
- 2x Steel


Aggron also resists a lot more types than Rhyperior (thanks to his Steel typing).

Also, just decided to add this part. For those who say "There are no physical water and grass moves out there, so who cares about Rhyperior's quad weaknesses", I've decided to show a list of notable physical grass and water moves:

Water:


- Waterfall (80 BP, 100 Acc.)

Probably the most OU physical Water move, but not the most powerful. Also has a chance of flinching.

- Aqua Tail (90 BP, 90 Acc.)

Watch out for Gyrados, he can be deadly with either of those moves.

The most powerful physical water move.


Grass:


- Seed Bomb (80 BP, 100 Acc.)

This is only used by Pokemon that can't get Leaf Blade.

- Leaf Blade (90 BP, 100 Acc.)

This attack has a high chance of critical hit.

- Woodhammer (120 BP, 100 Acc.)

The most powerful physical grass move.


------------------------------

Though Rhyperior's ability (Solid Rock) may help it from being inflicted with excessive damage, with those moves around, just watch out, they're still powerful.

Aggron, on the other hand, has to worry about Earthquake (ouch), Brick Break/Hi Jump Kick/Close Combat/Cross Chop/Dynamic Punch/other fighting moves.

Overall, I can see why Rhyperior was placed in OU while Aggron is UU, therefore I'm not really going to debate that (and get flamed a lot). My major point/discussion is:

Can we all openly agree that Aggron is definitely the Rhyperior of the UU tier?

Heck, they even look the same (kind of) and are both "rhinos"! =D

Discuss, and vote on the poll!

And if no, please explain why.

Please post your opinions, I'm highly curious on what you have got to say.

I just want to see what you people think.

EDIT: Please people, don't just vote, post too, I'd like to see what you think.

Also, I am not saying that Aggron is a Rhyperior replacement, just that it is capable of playing its role in a lower tier. Seriously, the way people have been responding seems to be implying that I'm saying that Aggron is much better than Rhyperior, which it isn't. Please read and understand my post properly. Thanks dudes!
 
With Ground and Fighting typing being among the highest used physical moves, even 180 defence would find it hard to take a 4x SE hit. So using Aggron for physical tanking wouldnt last long.

Then we look at Rhyperior who has a 4x weakness to Grass and Water but really, the only physical Water move out there is Waterfall with almost no physical Grass move. Rhyperior has Rock Solid too.

And thats why i think Aggron is UU. While Aggron has higher defences, it cannot tank 2 of the most common physical typing attacks while rhyperior can.
 
^ I'm not debating why Aggron is UU. I'm debating if Aggron is the Rhyperior of UU, a.k.a can it do Rhyperior's job in UU.

A common misconception about no Physical Grass moves. Seriously dude, lol stop and think about it for a bit:

Leaf Blade is a physical grass move. So is Seed Bomb. And they're no joke either, Leaf Blade is 90 BP and critical hit chance is high. Seed Bomb is 80 BP (used on Grass Pokemon that can't learn Leaf Blade). Sceptile and Leafeon can be dangerous physical Grass Pokemon. Wood Hammer is 120 BP, the most powerful physical grass move, but with a nasty recoil. Torterra using this on Rhyperior will most like ruin its day (120 * 4 = 480 BP).


And Rhyperior is weak to everything that Aggron is weak to, and more, just not 4x (on fighting and ground).
 
Aggron is most definetely not the Rhyperior of UU.

First and most importantly: No Swords Dance.

While Aggron does have Rock Polish, you can't just pass him a +2 boost and expect him to wipe things out.

Less coverage: Aggron doesn't get Megahorn and Steel is almost completely redundant vs. Rock.

The banded version is decent but Double-Edge/Stone Edge/Focus Punch/Earthquake doesn't strike fear into the hearts of mortals much.

Aggron is also has support options in Thunder Wave and the many resistances allow it to Subpunch more effectively.

Aside from "they look like rhinos" There isn't much similar about Rhyperior and Aggron.
 
Deck Knight said:
Aggron is most definetely not the Rhyperior of UU.

First and most importantly: No Swords Dance.

While Aggron does have Rock Polish, you can't just pass him a +2 boost and expect him to wipe things out.

Less coverage: Aggron doesn't get Megahorn and Steel is almost completely redundant vs. Rock.

The banded version is decent but Double-Edge/Stone Edge/Focus Punch/Earthquake doesn't strike fear into the hearts of mortals much.

Aggron is also has support options in Thunder Wave and the many resistances allow it to Subpunch more effectively.

Aside from "they look like rhinos" There isn't much similar about Rhyperior and Aggron.
Click to expand...
I think you're underestimating Aggron's power. 110 Base Attack is able to hurt a ton of things in UU. Besides, Rhyperior shouldn't be Swords Dancing, if it attempts a sweep it should be Rock Polishing.

Both of them are slow tanks with massive power (perspectively), so I see a comparison in the two. But I don't see why there needed to be a discussion about this...
 
No Swords Dance and no Megahorn isn't enough to completely kill using Aggron as a wall. And UU means less threats to worry about. And plus, walls don't necessarily need to do that much attacking.

Thanks for the opinion! =D

@ BLAZIKEN_57, I just want to see everyone's opinion on the matter.
 
^ Yes, but Rhyperior has two 4x weaknesses of its own, we can't forget that.

I'm not saying Aggron is as good/on the same level as Rhyperior, I'm just saying that it can somewhat do its job, though to a lower extent.
 
BLAZIKEN_57 said:
I think you're underestimating Aggron's power. 110 Base Attack is able to hurt a ton of things in UU. Besides, Rhyperior shouldn't be Swords Dancing, if it attempts a sweep it should be Rock Polishing.

Both of them are slow tanks with massive power (perspectively), so I see a comparison in the two. But I don't see why there needed to be a discussion about this...
Click to expand...

I grow weary of the "hurts a ton of things in UU" line when it comes to average attacking ability. UU is not frontloaded with failed sweepers who were too weak offensively to make up for their defenses and failed walls with too many weaknesses.

Can Aggron break through Hariyama? No. Can it break through Relicanth? Hell no. Poliwrath? Nope. Blastoise or Politoed? Nope. Does it run from Golem ans the Nidos? Yes. Does Sandslash stop it? Yes. Can ReflectRox wall it effectively? Yes. Can Meganium wall it effectively? Yes. Does Rotom make it nearly useless if it's locked into anything other than Stone Edge? yes. Quagsire, Whiscash, Gastrodon, and Claydol all beat it.

Aggron doesn't have "massive power," it can't even 2HKO most of the walls in UU and does situationally poorly against many pokemon.
 
Aggron probably is the Rhyperior of UU. I only think this because, Rhyperior is only moderately used in OU, and likewize for Aggron in UU.

Aggron definately isn't the say, Metagross of UU.
 
True, they both have 2 4x weaknesses, but the KEY difference here is what kind op type are they weak too. Rhyperior is quad weak to Grass and Water, both of which are Special Types. Seeing Rhyperior is a Physical Atacker and Wall, no one in hi/her right mind would leave a Rhyperior against something like a Starmie. Rhyperior also get Solid Rock. Aggron on the other hand, is quad weak to Ground and Fighting. Seeing as both are always seen, and almost every team has at least 1 Pokemon with EQ, Aggron isn't as good as Physical Tanking. Even in UU, I can see a lot of Pokemon carrying EQ, such as Feraligatr, Kangaskan and maybe even the Nidos. Aggron is also weak to Water which Azumarrill ought to carry.
 
Hariyama, and Claydol are BL =D

And actually, Aggron has a 100% chance to OHKO a max defense Hariyama (and nobody has max defense on them) with Earthquake (105.95% - 124.5%). I won't even bother checking a STAB move (Iron Head/Tail). Trust me, base 110 Attack is not to be taken lightly.

Isaac, re-read my first post please =D

Its a common misconception that Grass and Water moves are only Special types.

Man, the tone of the discussion seems to imply that I'm trying to imply that Aggron should now replace Rhyperior...thats not what I'm trying to do, just trying to point out that Aggron is somewhat of a Rhyperior, but to a lower extent (AKA UU).

Leaf Blade, Seed Bomb, Wood Hammer, Aqua Tail, and Waterfall.

EDIT: Also added base stats for easier comparison.
 
And actually, Aggron has a 100% chance to OHKO a max defense Hariyama with Earthquake (105.95% - 124.5%)
Click to expand...
if cbtar's quake doesn't OHKO Hari, what makes Aggron OHKO Hari?
 
I just did Psypoke's calc, and it said it did lol, I must have entered something wrong? Let me re-check.

EDIT: Got the same thing again. I typed 350 Attack for Aggron and 240 Defense for Hariyama, put Earthquake as attacking move, and put "the Pokemon's ability into account". And I got the same calculations as above again.

For CB Tyranitar, I put 403 Attack, and 240 Def for Hariyama, and I got (181.75% - 213.58%).

Whats up with that?
 
Aggron has only slightly higher defence than Rhyperior since it has 25 less base HP and has worse special Defence overall.

While being 4x weak to Grass and Water is painfull the only common attacking move from these two is grass knot. Moreover Ryperior's Solid Rock means it's only taking the equivalent of a Life Orbed SE hit. Aggron takes 4x damage from Fighting and Ground of which both are used a lot. To make matters worse, these are the moves that Aggron is meant to be tanking.
 
Still seeking help on the damage calcs.

And PoD, I'm not saying Aggron should replace Rhyperior, just that it could do its role in the UU tier.

And Leaf Blade/Wood Hammer are fairly common. And their physical too. I already noted in my first post about physical water/grass moves, as well as Rhyperior's ability saving him from excessive damage.

Everyone seems to talk as if I'm trying to replace Rhyperior with Aggron in an average team. But I'm not, I'm merely pointing out Aggron's similarity to Rhyperior, and how it can play its role to a lower extent.
 
I used X-Act's calc, with ths

Move power:100
Attack stat: 403
Item: Choice Band

vs 240 Def opponent neutral

181-214 damage.

That's less than 50%
 
sorry this post is so small and off topic.

yoko, the reason your calcs are so off is because psypoke shows the actual damage taken, NOT a percent. use metalkids next time.
 
@ Jibaku, ah thanks! I knew I must have been doing something wrong! Can you give me a link to X-Act's calculator?

@ TheMantyke, thanks bro, I knew I must have done something incorrect. Now to find X-Act's Calculator.

Wow the votes are 5 to 13...? I really don't get that lol >.>

People, post your opinions please.
 
I voted no ... but in all honesty I can't see what this discussion is going to achieve ... I mean Rhyperior has a less than sparkling reputation, so is it really going to do Aggron any favours by establishing a similarity?
 
^ I'm trying to see if Aggron can play Rhyperior's role (to a lower extent) in a lower tier. I'm not trying to say Aggron is better than Rhyperior, just that I think it can be used in a lower tier the way Rhyperior is used in OU. People seem to be misunderstanding my question.
 
when i first started playing D/P compedativly i had no idea that aggron was UU. i used him on my OU sandstorm team and i swept teams with him.

i used a curse rest move set with 252 in hp and sp def, cursed up, and that thing was freaking amazing.
 
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