Tournaments ADVPL V Format Discussion

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After thinking it over and realizing that ZU has little chance of beating out RU due to their more established player pool, I think 12 slots is the way to go. From the bottom of my heart, I genuinely think that ZU deserves a spot in this tournament. The reason why I am again posting on behalf of the metagame is that ZU Olympiad has seen a large number of competitive battles from players who haven't tried to break into the greater ADV scene. If managers go off of looking at the sheet alone, they will completely disregard this metagame, as players don't have enough data (yet) to say if they're up to par. This would be incredibly disappointing to the numerous players who didn't get drafted in ZU Olympiad because other ZU managers weren't aware of them. We have a large pool of players who CAN play and build at or above par. Unfortunately, you have to be willing to trust my assertion.

Given what was just stated, I think the best course of action would be to shoot for 8x12. Not only does this ensure that "everyone is happy," but it also allows us to slot the taboo NU Suspect slot, keep DOU, or any other format that deserves another slot. Moreover, if we transition to 8x12, I think the optimal move would be to transition to 3 Manager slots as well. This heavily reduces the stress associated with managing such a large tournament. My ideal formatting is posted below.

Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU Bo3
UU
NU
PU
ZU
LC
RU
NU Suspect, UUBL, DOU, OU, UU etc.

I am so Gun-ho on ZU's inclusion this year because holding a format discussion thread every year feels unnecessary and tiresome. Whatever happens, this year should stay in circulation for another year or so unless there's some huge community outcry on something that sucked. I think there's no 100% real best solution for ADV, specifically because of how popular the generation is, ADV's ancient/awful tiering, and the numerous tiers that have been created/will be created.
 
BP said:
After thinking it over and realizing that ZU has little chance of beating out RU due to their more established player pool, I think 12 slots is the way to go. From the bottom of my heart, I genuinely think that ZU deserves a spot in this tournament. The reason why I am again posting on behalf of the metagame is that ZU Olympiad has seen a large number of competitive battles from players who haven't tried to break into the greater ADV scene. If managers go off of looking at the sheet alone, they will completely disregard this metagame, as players don't have enough data (yet) to say if they're up to par. This would be incredibly disappointing to the numerous players who didn't get drafted in ZU Olympiad because other ZU managers weren't aware of them. We have a large pool of players who CAN play and build at or above par. Unfortunately, you have to be willing to trust my assertion.

Given what was just stated, I think the best course of action would be to shoot for 8x12. Not only does this ensure that "everyone is happy," but it also allows us to slot the taboo NU Suspect slot, keep DOU, or any other format that deserves another slot. Moreover, if we transition to 8x12, I think the optimal move would be to transition to 3 Manager slots as well. This heavily reduces the stress associated with managing such a large tournament. My ideal formatting is posted below.

Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU Bo3
UU
NU
PU
ZU
LC
RU
NU Suspect, UUBL, DOU, OU, UU etc.

I am so Gun-ho on ZU's inclusion this year because holding a format discussion thread every year feels unnecessary and tiresome. Whatever happens, this year should stay in circulation for another year or so unless there's some huge community outcry on something that sucked. I think there's no 100% real best solution for ADV, specifically because of how popular the generation is, ADV's ancient/awful tiering, and the numerous tiers that have been created/will be created.
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1. NU tier people have said 'untouched NU' only (though I admit quite heavy handed since the delay is only on them at this point)
2. we cannot seriously be suggesting two ADV NUs
3. If people want 12x8 we could do a second UU slot there and I think it would be fine.
 
I wasn’t sure if I was going to leave a comment here, but I’ve been encouraged to share my thoughts on what the lineup should look like for ADVPL lower tiers. First I’d like to talk about OU, which has seen massive growth in terms of player base as well as the skill floor. If you look at any recent ADV tour, you’ll see many high level players in losers brackets being upset by rising players. I’ll avoid naming any specific players out of respect, but the proof is very easy to find. For this reason, I am confident that the level of play in OU3, 4, or 5 (depending on how many OU slots there are) won’t see a big drop in quality which warrants as many OU slots that can fit without affecting the lower tier player base.

With OU being deserving of this many slots, this makes it hard to fit every lower tier with a 8-10 slot lineup. It’s my personal belief that ADVPL should strive to be as inclusive to lower tiers that have strong and active competitors and semi frequent tournaments. There are enough talented players to fill up every low tier slot, to varying degrees, but especially Ubers, and UU. LC too, has a dedicated player base and was a big success last year from what I’ve heard from others. RU, PU, and NU are all unique tiers with strong played deserving of a chance to shine in ADVPL, a team tour that has the potential to really be a celebration of this great generation.

With this said, I don’t think any lower tier can really warrant more than 1 slot unless it’s competitions against an OU6 slot or DOU slot. I’ll take this moment to say that I think DOU should be shelved this year due to big meta changes and less activity compared to every other tier. As for the rest of the lower tiers, there is nothing that needs to be cut.

ADV ZU is the last tier I would like to discuss as it’s a bit personal to me. This tier is what got me much more involved with the Smogon and Pokemon discord community at large, and for good reason. ZU has seen a pretty meteoric rise with the help of the Gold Rush money tour which saw hundreds of entrants. This momentum continued into ADV Slam which included ZU, then ADV ZU open shortly after, and currently now ZUOLIII which includes ADV ZU. These tours have all occurred with very little time in between and as a result the tier has grown stronger in terms of skill, and player base. The ADV ZU discord also has one of the largest amounts of members for any specific gen, specific tier discord. For these reasons, I would strongly urge those with the decision making power to consider adding ADV ZU to the lineup.

My lineup would look as follows;
12x8
OU BO3
OU BO3
OU
OU
OU
Ubers
UU
RU
NU
PU
ZU
LC

Doubling down on any lower tiers would be a major disservice to any lower tiers that are left out as a result, but I could be persuaded to add a second Ubers or UU slot in place of OU5. ADV has the numbers AND skill for this to be successful, and I hope to see this lineup announced in the coming months. Thanks for reading.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I see no issue with the lineup being revisited on a yearly basis. As annoying as these conversations tend to be, certain tiers may see shifts within the tier itself, or shifts in terms of active player base which could warrant them being included one year but not the other. So I think we should all keep that in mind for tiers like DOU or UUBL that suffer from either a small player base, recent big shifts in their metagame, create difficulty for managers, or all of the above. Those issues with the tier are fluid and can therefore change, which is why I would hate to see the lineup locked permanently like others have argued for. Does the dialogue become boring, annoying, and repetitive? Yes, but permanently shutting down any chance of being included would be far worse in my opinion.
 
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I know my opinion doesn't mean a ton but I concur w 12 slots with 2 bo3 slots. Most lower tiers have pretty different playerbases, so increasing the slot count doesn't affect the amount of viable starters by a ton
 
violet river said:
i would personally love to see more discussion in this thread, before its conclusion, about 10 vs 12 slots
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You got it! I'm down for 12 slots myself now after seeing all the talk of ZU vs. RU and stuff. Both are deserving of a slot in this fun tour and I say lets make it happen. That being said, you might be asking where the 12th slot comes in if we consider the format from last year, right? I'm pretty sure somebody mentioned giving UU a second slot and I'm a supporter of that. In summary, the 12 slots x 8 team format I'm in favor of is:

Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU Bo3
UU
UU
RU
NU
PU
ZU
LC
 
12 slots seems like too many to me. I could be wrong about this but my impression is there is a ton of crossover in these lower tier playerbases - the best of one tier are probably also pretty much the best of the others. Adding slots, even for distinct lower tiers, will pull from the already shallow pools of other tiers. Also, 12 players is just a lot to have on a team. This is not meant to be a huge tournament, after all. These tours already struggle to get quality manager signups, by the way, and adding a 3rd manager to each team likely hurts that (3rd manager may be optional, which would be ok. But, 3 managers + 12 starters + like 6 subs probably and these teams become huge.)

Ou5 should absolutely not happen. Remember that every team is drafting 2+ extra ou players. There are certainly not 56 (!) Ou players who will sign up for this event who I'd feel comfortable putting in a lineup. Speaking from the perspective of last year, 4 ou slots felt like we struck a good balance of each team being able to find a decent sub and also having to draft some total unknowns. Also, I understand the community is a lot bigger now but advpl 1 had 3 ou slots and my team drafted like 7 or 8 ou players, several of whom were super unproven like I was. Sue me if I'm wrong, but I doubt there will be that many more signups this year than the last.

Edit: more than 1 bo3 slot is definitely wrong. The bo3 slot functions as a guaranteed matchup, almost, where you pretty much already know who you're going to play before the week starts, similar to all the low tiers. Bo3 is silly to have in team tours, and we only do it here because this tour is kinda just for fun.
 
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I do like the idea of 12 slots but it does seem idealistic. Tours with that many slots usually have 100-200 more signups than ADVPL did last year, and I feel like some teams are really gonna be scraping the barrel for starters let alone subs. I do think tier overlap is a little overstated since someone who plays multiple tiers can also just help the other slots, but it's undeniable that some of the top slots for a tier will also be good slots in another and take away from one of the pools. I think the player pool overall suffers too much with 12 slots, and I don't think something like ou5 is a good idea when 99% of deserving buys are already going to get in with 4 slots + subs imo.

Personally last year's format with RU > DOU just makes sense to me, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting cutting RU or keeping DOU at this point but feel free to correct me. I don't feel strongly about not including ZU but RU just has more momentum and imo a more competitive pool. If people really really want ZU I'm fine with removing a OU slot (or like NU) for it but I'd really just prefer to keep it simple and have the only change be adding RU.
 
12 slots still seem a bit far off, even if one of the two new slots is Bo3 OU and the other is ZU (with RU over DOU).

When I was preparing last year's team, most of the good players for the lower tiers were the same, and there was a lot of overlap. I don’t think it will be any different with RU and ZU
 
Thank you everyone for engaging in this thread and sharing your passion for ADVPL! Given the current state of our lower tiers and the positive feedback we've received from last year's edition, the ADV moderation team feels 12 slots is currently a bit too much to endorse and has thus decided to run back a 8x10 format. With very few people supporting Doubles, it was decided that ADV DOU will be axed from ADVPL V and will be replaced by the tier that received the most support and that we believe has a strong enough community to field a good pool, ADV RU. Therefore the format for ADVPL V will be:

Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU Bo3
UU
RU
NU
PU
LC

Since we are not changing the total amount of players, retains will be allowed.
Each team will be allowed to retain at most 3 players from their retain pool and self-purchasing managers (so if you choose to self purchase 1 manager you only get 2 retains etc.). Teams must notify the host team of any retains prior to the player auction.

The cost to retain a player on their first year as a retention will be max(10k, previous price + 3k). Examples:
  • If UD was bought for 13k last year, it would cost 16k to retain him
  • If UD was bought for 8k last year, it would cost 11k to retain him, not 10k
  • If UD was bought for 5k last year, it would cost 10k to retain him, not 8k
(For future editions, doesn't apply to this one since there was no retain last year) The cost to retain a player that was already retained in the last ADVPL will be dependent on how many times they have been retained. The fee being raised by +3k with each subsequent retention.
Example: If UD was retained for 16k last ADVPL , it would cost 22k to retain him in this one, and 31k to retain him in the next one.

Players that are retained will be locked into the same tiers that they were locked in the year prior.

Last but not least, we will not go forward with the 3 managers proposal for this edition.
 
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