Gen 3 ADV Starmie (OU Revamp) Done!

[johnnyg2]

ADV Starmie

[OVERVIEW]

Starmie is a formidable late-game threat and a reliable Rapid Spin user thanks to its blazing Speed, powerful Hydro Pump, and useful coverage. The only common threats that can outspeed it are Jolly Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aerodactyl. Starmie's presence forces faster-paced teams to carry revenge killers or checks that can withstand two hits, while slower teams are forced on the back foot as Starmie removes their Spikes on a forced switch to a passive special wall. This cements Starmie's placement on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams as a spinner and late-game cleaner.

Thanks to Recover and Natural Cure, Starmie can also run a bulky Rapid Spin set to repeatedly remove Spikes throughout the game. Starmie's main competitors as a spinner -- Claydol and Forretress -- struggle against status, residual damage, and Skarmory, although Starmie still dislikes Toxic. A bulky Starmie can also check common Pokemon such as offensive Swampert, Metagross, Cloyster, Breloom, Moltres, and Charizard. Additionally, Starmie can pair with other Natural Cure users like Blissey and Celebi to absorb status, pressuring status-reliant walls like Milotic, Swampert, and Blissey.

Starmie is held back by its inability to play offense and defense simultaneously. Offensive variants cannot switch directly into attacks; are easily revenge killed by Aerodactyl and Jolly Dugtrio; must land the imperfectly accurate Hydro Pump against dangerous foes such as Magneton, Metagross, Tyranitar, and Swampert; and struggle to muscle through defensive answers such as Snorlax, Celebi, Jirachi, and especially Blissey without sand and Spikes. On the other hand, defensive Starmie is quite passive and setup fodder for Pokemon such as Celebi, Snorlax, Suicune, Heracross, Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi, and Taunt + Dragon Dance Gyarados. Starmie's bulk and defensive typing are poor, forcing even bulky variants to use Recover often, and it is easily put into KO range of Pursuit Tyranitar’s Crunch and Cloyster’s Explosion through chip damage like sand and Spikes. Starmie's competition as a spinner in Claydol and Forretress have much higher bulk and utility; both are immune to sand and Claydol is immune to Spikes. Starmie is also vulnerable to mind games against teams with Gengar and Toxic + Protect Skarmory, which can spinblock while Toxic wears it down.

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin / Psychic / Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Hydro Pump is a must despite its unreliability, as it can potentially OHKO Claydol, can OHKO Tyranitar that don't invest heavily in bulk, has a chance to 2HKO Forretress, and always 2HKOes Gengar. With Spikes, Starmie becomes even harder to check, wearing down defensive Jirachi; threatening a 2HKO on Metagross and a 3HKO on Snorlax; and guaranteeing a OHKO on Tyranitar. Ice Beam hits Salamence, Zapdos, and Venusaur hard while forcing Celebi to repeatedly use Recover, whereas Thunderbolt nails Skarmory and Water-types like Milotic, Suicune, Gyarados, Vaporeon, and opposing Starmie.

Starmie has multiple options for its last move. Rapid Spin works as an emergency removal for Spikes on a forced switch. It is also quite effective in faster paced games such as those against Jolteon Spikes, as Starmie only needs to spin once. Since this Starmie is offensive, do not expect it to spin multiple times. Additionally, it can't afford to be spinblocked, as Gengar will take Hydro Pump and potentially KO back with Thunderbolt. Psychic is a nice option for Gengar and Venusaur as well as Fighting-types such as Heracross, Hariyama, and Breloom. Specifically, it can KO specially bulky Gengar with some prior damage and gives Starmie reason to switch into Gengar's Ice Punch, Taunt, or Will-O-Wisp. It also lets Starmie threaten an OHKO on Breloom and chipped Heracross without bulk investment and a 2HKO on bulky Heracross and Hariyama. Recover negates chip damage if the team already has a spinner or does not value Psychic's coverage. It allows Starmie to absorb status with Natural Cure and repeatedly force out Moltres, mixed Salamence, and Charizard. Starmie can also drop one of its coverage moves to run both Recover and Rapid Spin to give it more reliability as a spinner. It switches into Blissey early-game, as it doesn't give up momentum and shrugs off Blissey's attacks barring Thunderbolt. Offensive Starmie almost always have maximum Speed to outpace everything up to Salac Berry-boosted Swampert. Starmie can run a Modest nature to OHKO maximum HP Tyranitar and more likely 2HKO Skarmory. This is often done if using Starmie without Spikes or alongside support for removing Gengar.

Starmie should be brought in only at opportune moments such as predicted switches, when a Pokemon faints, or resisted moves from something it threatens out, like Moltres, Gengar, or Claydol. Beware of trying to use it to check Skarmory and Forretress early-game, especially if Skarmory has Toxic and Protect or Forretress has Hidden Power Bug; this often leads to a situation where one layer of Spikes is still up and Starmie is too low on HP to perform properly.

Team Options
========
Starmie needs specific support to cleave through teams. First and foremost, Tyranitar's sand helps make residual damage stick for easier sweeping, and Starmie can threaten out sand-immune Rock- and Ground-types with Hydro Pump and 2HKO most Steel-types bar defensive Jirachi and Registeel. Tyranitar is also a fantastic switch-in to Blissey, Snorlax, and defensive Jirachi without Hidden Power Fighting or Toxic. It can also use Focus Punch on Swampert and Metagross, weakening them for Starmie's Hydro Pump. Other strong attackers can fill this niche as well, such as Metagross, Focus Punch Swampert, and Snorlax.

Another way to use Starmie is to control the Spikes game: keep up more Spikes than the opponent. Good Spikes users include Skarmory and Forretress, although Cloyster and Smeargle are niche options for faster paced teams. Skarmory is the most common choice thanks to its defensive utility. Gengar is also nice on these teams, as it is the best spinblocker and can help remove special walls with Explosion or use Taunt + Will-O-Wisp to prevent them from healing. Another option to keep the Spikes advantage is to use Claydol alongside Starmie, which frees Starmie up to run Psychic or Recover, provides a Rock resistance, and threatens special walls with Explosion. Due to Starmie's defensive liabilities, it commonly prefers defensive teammates on Spikes teams, such as strong special walls like Blissey and Jirachi and good physical walls such as Swampert, defensive Metagross, and Flygon. These options often make up the core of common Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams alongside Tyranitar, Gengar, and Skarmory.

To further support Starmie, Explosion users like Gengar, Weezing, and Regice can lure in Blissey and often weaken it enough so that Dugtrio or residual damage can finish it off. Even without Explosion, Dugtrio is a fantastic partner with a good Blissey lure like Baton Pass Zapdos; Beat Up Dugtrio can easily remove it, defensive Jirachi, and Celebi. Additionally, other staples of special offense such as Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, offensive Swampert, mixed Metagross, Calm Mind Jirachi, Calm Mind Suicune, and Dragon Dance + Hidden Power Grass Tyranitar weaken special checks for a Starmie sweep. Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi is particularly synergetic, as it can pass Calm Mind to Starmie to more easily muscle past its checks.

Strong Fighting-types like Hariyama, Heracross, Breloom, Machamp, and Medicham are especially good alongside Starmie, as they help punch through bulky Normal-types like Blissey and Snorlax. They work especially well alongside Recover + Rapid Spin Starmie, as they can repeatedly fire off Focus Punch into Toxic + Protect Skarmory, while Starmie beats Drill Peck versions. Starmie is also a nice check to Salamence, a common Fighting answer.

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Recover
move 3: Surf
move 4: Thunder Wave / Psychic / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Defensive Starmie is one of OU's three consistent spinners and checks many dangerous threats with its speed, Recover, and Water / Psychic typing.

With maximum HP investment and Recover, Starmie is bulky enough to repeatedly remove Spikes. Running 40 Special Attack EVs guarantees a 2HKO on maximum HP Tyranitar with Surf, while 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature beat Gengar, only falling short of opposing Starmie, Salac Berry-boosted Swampert, and Raikou. In the last moveslot, Starmie has several options. The most prominent of these is Thunder Wave; Thunder Wave paralyzes dangerous setup threats not bothered by Starmie's weak Surf, like Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragon Dance Gyarados without Taunt, and Calm Mind Jirachi. It also cripples bulky Pokemon like Toxic + Protect Skarmory and slows down Speed-reliant Pokemon like Zapdos and Gengar, making them easier to revenge kill if they KO Starmie and weaker in general. For other options, Psychic is fantastic against Gengar trying to spinblock and Fighting-types. Thunderbolt assists Starmie against Gyarados, Cloyster, and Skarmory. Ice Beam allows Starmie to be a strong Salamence, Flygon, and Breloom answer while being less passive against Zapdos and defensive Celebi. The best coverage choice generally depends on the team's major weaknesses, whereas Thunder Wave is the best for general purposes.

Defensive Starmie generally competes with Claydol, as Forretress typically requires Pursuit support to handle Gengar. In comparison to Claydol, Starmie is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, lacks a Rock resistance, cannot directly remove threats such as Celebi, Suicune, and Salamence with Explosion, and struggles against Toxic Skarmory without Refresh. On the other hand, Starmie has good speed control, stronger coverage, Natural Cure, and Recover while beating all non-Toxic variants of Skarmory. These traits allow Starmie to survive throughout the game and even PP stall with its large amount of PP. Since Starmie is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, it is very vulnerable to Pursuit Tyranitar. Starmie isn't especially bulky either, often being forced into Recover loops against the various threats it checks with some chip damage, making it harder to spin should it be too cavalier with its health early-game.

Starmie can run 32 Special Defense EVs to avoid an OHKO after sand damage from Pursuit Tyranitar. Additionally, Starmie can forgo the extra Special Attack EVs for maximum Speed investment to outrun Salac Berry-boosted Endeavor Swampert instead of spamming Recover as it uses Endeavor. Starmie can also run considerably less Speed depending on the team's needs, such as 176 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Dugtrio; 136 Speed EVs for Salamence, Zapdos, and Charizard; 56 Speed EVs for Moltres; or even a Bold nature with heavy Defense investment to better check physical Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl. Starmie should run a minimum of 16 Speed EVs to outspeed Pokemon like Heracross and Suicune. How Starmie is played changes with different Speed investment; slower Starmie sets often are played similarly to Milotic, whereas faster Starmie sets are better against Spikes teams due to outspeeding Gengar.

Team Options
========
Defensive Starmie typically fits on balanced teams that need Spikes removal and can afford its passivity. Due to Starmie's ability to defeat Spikes users other than Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Hidden Power Bug Forretress, Starmie teams typically beat Skarmory down with threats such as mixed Tyranitar and Salamence with Fire Blast instead of using Magneton. However, to afford Starmie's passivity, it commonly needs to be paired with strong physical and special switch-ins. Physically defensive Metagross with Protect can handle Snorlax and most Jirachi while generally tanking boosted threats such as Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and Dragon Dance Gyarados, whereas Blissey or specially defensive Celebi deals with Suicune along with forming status pivots with Starmie for stalling out Milotic and defensive Jirachi. Pursuit Tyranitar can remove Gengar once Starmie has paralyzed it. Balanced teams struggle with Heracross and commonly carry Salamence or Gengar to switch into Megahorn. Starmie also fits well alongside Fighting-types like Medicham and especially well with those with Guts such as Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp, as they can beat Toxic + Protect Skarmory and repeatedly fire off Focus Punch for free because such Skarmory will typically lack Drill Peck.

Starmie can also pair with general Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes teammates such as Tyranitar, Swampert, Gengar, Blissey, and Skarmory; however, make sure that the team isn't too passive due to lacking a strong cleaner. These types of teams sometimes run Dugtrio for removing foes weakened by Spikes in longer games and prominent Starmie answers such as Calm Mind Celebi, Pursuit Tyranitar, and even paralyzed Blissey and Jirachi. Dugtrio can also trap Heracross, the one Fighting-type Starmie struggles against, and Starmie deals with Pokemon immune to Ground for Dugtrio such as Salamence, Gyarados, Charizard, and Moltres.

As a niche option, defensive Starmie can work on paralysis focused teams with Pokemon such as Porygon2, defensive Jirachi, Thunder Wave Zapdos, and Snorlax. These types of teams commonly struggle with Spikes and benefit from the unique array of Pokemon Starmie can check, such as Moltres, Charizard, Swampert, and Metagross. However, Starmie should not be the only check to these Pokemon, as it can be easily overwhelmed. Still, this allows them to use more offensive lures to Skarmory, such as Choice Band Metagross and Guts Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp. In addition, slow and powerful Pokemon such as Marowak, Substitute Tyranitar, Curse Swampert, and Rhydon fit well here. Marowak is especially nice, as it can provide a passable Rock resistance while heavily threatening most of the metagame.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Offensive Starmie has other niche options for its last moveslot. Hidden Power Grass guarantees a 2HKO on Swampert without having to use Hydro Pump while also hitting the rare Lanturn. Surf can be run alongside Hydro Pump to accurately hit Pokemon that will KO Starmie if Hydro Pump misses, such as weakened Metagross, Magneton, or Aerodactyl. Thunder over Thunderbolt can be used to hit Skarmory much harder and 2HKO Milotic in sand, which will otherwise stall out Starmie with Toxic and Recover, but beware of its low accuracy. It also generally hits Electric-weak threats like Skarmory much harder than Thunderbolt. On the defensive set, the most prominent alternative option is Toxic. Its forced damage is sometimes more valuable than Thunder Wave, helping beat Swampert more easily and eventually forcing Blissey out. However, Skarmory, Gengar, and Forretress are immune to it, making Toxic Starmie worse as a spinner. Starmie also has access to both Reflect and Light Screen, which can assist teammates and let it withstand Explosion or Pursuit from Tyranitar. However, Starmie can only fit one screen without getting too passive.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Special Walls**: Even offensive Starmie will make little progress against special walls like Blissey, Snorlax, defensive Jirachi, specially defensive Celebi, and even Regice and Registeel. Blissey is the best Starmie counter. Snorlax and Regice are less bulky but can take multiple hits and respond with powerful attacks. Jirachi and Celebi can heal and 2HKO back with Electric-type coverage or Hidden Power Grass. However, Celebi needs to be careful, as Ice Beam forces repeated Recover uses. Registeel takes little damage from anything Starmie can do. While these Pokemon wall the defensive set easily, they allow Starmie to spin for free, while some such as Blissey and Registeel are quite passive and invite in dangerous physical Pokemon like Tyranitar, Metagross, Snorlax, and Fighting-types.

**Bulky Electric-types**: Jolteon, Zapdos, Lanturn, and Raikou can tank a hit from offensive Starmie and easily remove both variants with Thunderbolt. Jolteon outspeeds all Starmie variants, whereas Raikou can Speed tie with Starmie. Both are bulky enough to take one hit after three Spikes layers, while Raikou can sometimes take Hydro Pump twice from full HP. Lanturn easily takes on Starmie's coverage. Zapdos is the only prominent Starmie check immune to Spikes, but it can't outspeed offensive Starmie; bulky sets can take Ice Beam twice, while offensive sets can take any attack once and remove Starmie.

**Revenge Killers**: Offensive Starmie's damage output often makes switching in quite hard, but upon sacrificing a Pokemon, a healthy or faster check can switch in and remove Starmie. Jolly Dugtrio and Aerodactyl only need a small amount of chip damage to remove Starmie without bulk investment, whereas Swampert and Metagross can survive Hydro Pump at reasonable health and hit hard in return. In desperate situations, maximum HP Tyranitar can take Timid offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump and hit hard with Hidden Power Bug or OHKO back with Crunch.

**Ghost-types**: Ghost-types like Gengar and Dusclops can spinblock Starmie. Gengar can also hit Starmie hard with Thunderbolt, OHKOing offensive Starmie if Gengar has significant Special Attack investment. However, both Starmie sets can greatly threaten Gengar; if Gengar switches in on anything but Rapid Spin, it will be KOed by the ensuing Hydro Pump or Psychic from offensive Starmie, whereas the defensive set can cripple it with Thunder Wave or hit it with Psychic. Dusclops is rare but is much bulkier than Gengar, not weak to Psychic, and able to retaliate with Shadow Ball.

**Setup Sweepers**: Setup Pokemon that can shrug off status and Surf can use defensive Starmie as setup fodder. Examples include Calm Mind + Rest Suicune, Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, Curse Snorlax, Taunt or Rest + Dragon Dance Gyarados if Starmie lacks Thunderbolt, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi. These Pokemon, especially Calm Mind Jirachi, Curse Snorlax, and Calm Mind + RestTalk Suicune, often heavily threaten teams Starmie finds itself on.

**Water-type Checks**: Defensive Starmie can do little damage to bulky Water answers such as Milotic and Celebi and is completely walled by Vaporeon. Against offensive Starmie, these checks can bait out a weaker coverage move like Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to switch into a teammate that can't take Hydro Pump twice.

**Dark-types**: Pursuit Tyranitar can KO defensive Starmie after some damage and is commonly found on teams with Forretress lacking Hidden Power Bug, but it is 2HKOed by Surf and takes heavy damage from offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump. Umbreon can more reliably Pursuit trap Starmie thanks to its high special bulk and Toxic, but it cannot KO a healthy Starmie with Pursuit. It is also exploited by much of the metagame.

**Heracross**: Heracross can easily OHKO Starmie and only needs a small amount of bulk to take any Psychic. Heracross can also set up Substitute and Swords Dance on defensive Starmie, while Guts Heracross does not mind taking Thunder Wave to become even more powerful.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[johnnyg2, 57904]]
- Earlier version by: [[danilo, 88470], [Bughouse, 52547]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno, 5454], [Mikmer, 511989]]
- Grammar checked by: [[CryoGyro, 331519], [P Squared, 168392]]

 

[johnnyg2]

This is ready for QC, thanks for the outline vapicuno!

 

[vapicuno]

cool stuff. feel free to discuss anything on discord together with everyone on the qc team, especially on some comments i made that im not quite sure of myself. otherwise, qc 1/2 once implemented.

ADV Starmie
View attachment 334534
[OVERVIEW]

Starmie has a formidable presence not only as one of the scariest late game threats but also as one of the more reliable users of Rapid Spin. Starmie is one the fastest Pokemon in ADV, as the only common threats to outspeed it are Jolly Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aerodactyl. Starmie’s power with STAB Hydro Pump, great coverage, and this speed make it one of the more warping presences in the tier&mdash it forces faster pace teams to carry some kind of answer to it with checks that can at least survive two hits or revenge killers (this is the first paragraph of the overview, don't list all its checks here because there's more anyway and you're going to mention them on the third paragraph) Snorlax, Blissey, Celebi, Jolteon, Regice, or specially defensive Zapdos, while slower teams have to choose between going to their passive sturdy special wall like Blissey, Umbreon, and defensive Jirachi or (isn't this and, not or?) potential lose their Spikes to Rapid Spin. This cements Starmie’s placement on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams as a late game cleaner and potential Spinner.

Starmie also can go all in on the support route with a bulky Rapid Spin set, designed to switch into Spikes users repeatedly and remove Spikes. Starmie is the only common spinner with access to Recover, and as such, is a fantastic choice for teams with multiple Pokemon weak to Spikes. Starmie’s other common competition as a Spinner, Claydol and Forretress, cannot recover status and health as easily because of this access to Recover and its Natural Cure ability. Starmie also beats any Skarmory set that doesn’t carry Toxic. Starmie’s Water / Psychic typing, solid bulk with investment, and its aforementioned Natural Cure ability allow it to check several common Pokemon as well, such as offensive Swampert, Metagross, Cloyster, Breloom, Blaziken, Moltres, and Charizard. Additionally, due to Natural Cure, it can often form status pivots with Celebi and Blissey&mdash teams without Toxic Skarmory typically make little progress against a defensive Starmie + Blissey pairing, while Pokemon like Breloom will be almost useless versus a Starmie and defensive Celebi core.

Despite these positives, Starmie is held back by its inability to be both of its main roles well as once. Starmie without defensive investment is one of the worst defensive Pokemon in the tier, as it is quite frail and has to get in via predicted double switches or status moves in order to not risk much of its health. Offensive Starmie also must use Hydro Pump to get favorable damage rolls, and as such is vulnerable to missing on the many threats it outspeeds targets such as Magneton, Metagross, Tyranitar, and Swampert. Additionally, Starmie only has base 100 SpA, and can struggle against defensive answers such as Blissey, Snorlax, Celebi, Regice, and Jirachi without potentially having sand and Spikes to wear wearing them down. As a defensive spinner, it instead becomes one of the most passive Pokemon in the tier, as anything that can shrug off a weak Surf or Thunder Wave will set up on it, such as Celebi, (important Pokemon first)Snorlax, Suicune, Heracross, and Taunt Gyarados, and Celebi. Its Water / Psychic typing and bulk aren’t amazing either&mdash it can check dangerous threats, but many of them are close to 2HKOing even Bold Starmie, while Starmie relies on its speed to check Moltres and Charizard. This forces it to spam Recover and be vulnerable to critical hits and chip damage. Starmie’s poor bulk leads it to be vulnerable to this chip damage more than other threats&mdash offensive Starmie can be sniped by Jolly Dugtrio and Aerodactyl, while bulkier Starmie sets can be put into range of Pursuit Tyranitar’s Crunch and Cloyster’s Explosion quite easily. Starmie also is vulnerable to mind games against teams with Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Gengar, as not being able to Rapid Spin while poisoned can lead to it being worn down and defeated very easily.

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin / Psychic / Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Offensive Starmie is (seems to be missing a sentence before this; how does starmie fit on a team before you even talk about its properties? something like "a late-game sweeper adept at taking out fast-paced teams") one of the more difficult Pokemon to cover for faster pace teams, as its combined usable SpA stat as well as fantastic speed and coverage force the usage of more specially bulky answers like Snorlax and Blissey rather than relying on resistances to specific attacks.

Hydro Pump is a must on this Starmie set despite its unreliability, as it gets damage rolls such as a OHKO on Tyranitar that don’t invest heavily in bulk, OHKO on Claydol, and a 2HKO on Gengar and Forretress, as well as generally being threatening. With Spikes down, Starmie becomes even harder to check, threatening a 2HKO on Metagross and a 3HKO on defensive Jirachi and Snorlax. Its other coverage allows it to handle Water resists and pivots&mdash Ice Beam hits Salamence, Zapdos, and Venusaur hard while forcing Celebi to spam Recover, whereas Thunderbolt nails Water-types like Milotic, Suicune, Gyarados, Vaporeon, other Starmie as well as provides at least a 2HKO on Skarmory (not true, 20% chance to KO not even accounting for Protect; just say hit skarm hard). After these moves, this Starmie’s options open up somewhat. Rapid Spin may seem out of place on such an offensive Pokemon, but it allows Starmie to act as an emergency removal for Spikes against the more defensive teams it struggles against. Rapid Spin on this Starmie is also quite effective against Jolteon teams, as these games are often fast enough pace that Starmie only needs to get one Rapid Spin off. Additionally, it allows Starmie’s team to perform the similar style that Claydol does (referencing dol here is a bit weird because someone who is learning about mie the fast time isn't expected to understand dol better than mie, maybe rephrase a bit after this deletion) on Skarmory beatdown teams&mdash repeatedly hit Skarmory hard while it sets up Spikes only to spin them away with an offensive threat. Only rely on Starmie’s Rapid Spin sparingly, as its lack of both bulk and recovery mean that it can often only switch in once or twice to remove Spikes and can’t afford to be blocked, as Gengar will survive a Hydro Pump and potentially KO back with Thunderbolt.

Psychic is a nice option for the aforementioned Gengar and Venusaur as well as Fighting-types such as Heracross, Hariyama, and Breloom. Psychic almost OHKOs specially bulky Gengar trying to block Rapid Spin, while also making Starmie a great pivot into either Taunt, Ice Punch, or Will-O-Wisp from this Gengar due to naturally outspeeding it. The Fighting-types are of particular importance, as they commonly greatly threaten the teams Starmie is featured on (not so sure about this - fighters scare spinmie teams more than offmie teams, i would reduce it to just teams with Blissey or without solid fighting checks) and threatening an OHKO on bulkless Heracross and Breloom or a 2HKO on bulky Heracross and Hariyama can be of utmost importance (saying it's important again is fluff, gotta rephrase). Finally, Recover is a nice option on Starmie to negate chip damage if the team already has a Rapid Spinner or does not value the coverage Psychic provides. It allows Starmie to perform some of its defensive roles, such as being a status pivot with Natural Cure and covering Moltres and Charizard’s Fire-type attacks with its speed. Starmie can also drop one of its coverage moves to run Recover and Rapid Spin to give it much more reliability as a Rapid Spinner. It also performs nicely as an early pivot into Blissey, as it doesn’t give up momentum and easily shrugs off anything Blissey might use other than its own Thunderbolt. Offensive Starmie almost always runs Timid max speed and SpA, as ability to outpace everything up Salac boosted Swampert and hit them hard make up the core of its niche a special cleaner. Despite this, Starmie can also run Modest&mdash it notably has a chance to OHKO max HP Tyranitar while generally hitting everything much harder. This is often done if using Starmie on a team without Spikes or alongside support for removing Gengar, as it is the only common threat between Timid and Modest Starmie. Leftovers is needed so Starmie doesn’t get worn down by sand.

This Starmie generally plays as an offensive cleaner and revenge killer on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams or as an early wallbreaker on teams without Spikes. As such, it should be brought in only in opportune moments such as predicted switches, when a Pokemon faints, or weak moves on something it threatens out, like Moltres and Gengar’s Will-O-Wisp or Claydol’s Psychic. However, once it finds these opportune moments, especially if 3 layers of Spikes are down and opposing special walls are weakened, only Aerodactyl (make mie the subject, this analysis isnt about aero) can cleave through teams like Starmie can. One of the pitfalls of using this Starmie is trying to use it to counter Skarmory and Forretress early game, especially if Skarmory has Toxic and Protect or Forretress has Hidden Power Bug&mdash this often sets up a situation where one layer of Spikes is still up and Starmie is too low on HP to clean the opposing team effectively.

Team Options
========
Despite its prowess as a special cleaner, Starmie needs some specific support before it can cleave through teams. First and foremost, Starmie commonly needs sand, and by extension, Tyranitar to help make residual damage stick for easier sweeping. Sand is especially nice for Starmie, as its Hydro Pump nails the Rock and Ground-types immune to it, while Hydro Pump 2HKOs almost all Steel-types besides defensive Jirachi and Registeel. Tyranitar also is nice in other areas&mdash as a physical attacker with or without Choice Band, it is a fantastic switch in to Blissey, Snorlax, and defensive Jirachi without Hidden Power Fighting or Toxic. It can also use Focus Punch as these Starmie checks switch out to soften up Pokemon that can live a Hydro Pump, like Swampert or Metagross. Other strong physical attackers can fill this niche as well, such as Metagross, Focus Punch Swampert, and Snorlax. Strong Fighting-types like Hariyama, Heracross, Breloom, Machamp, and Medicham are especially good alongside Starmie, as they can take advantage of bulky Normal-types like the aforementioned Blissey and Snorlax to fire off strong attacks into the opponent’s team. These work especially well alongside Recover + Rapid Spin Starmie, as they can repeatedly fire off strong a Focus Punch into Toxic + Protect Skarmory, while Starmie beats Drill Peck versions. (this whole fighter section should pretty much be the last paragraph because its one of the rarer ways to use mie - the most common is spikes. fighter + offmie is better spikeless because you cant easily fit both on an offense)

However, the answer to these specially bulky walls doesn’t always have to be a strong physical attacker; Explosion users that lure in Blissey like Gengar, Weezing, and Regice can often weaken it enough so that a Dugtrio or residual damage can finish it off. Even without Explosion, Dugtrio is a fantastic partner&mdash with a good Blissey lure like Baton Pass Zapdos, Beat Up Dugtrio can easily remove it and defensive Jirachi (also Celebi). Additionally, other staples of special offense such as Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, offensive Swampert, mixed Metagross, Calm Mind Jirachi, Calm Mind Suicune, and Hidden Power Grass + Dragon Dance Tyranitar can be effective partners as they weaken special checks for a Starmie sweep or even power it up in the case of Celebi. Offensive Suicune and Swampert are particularly synergetic, as they both spam powerful Water-type attacks to soften up their mutual checks (really? i can't remember the last time i saw an offcune/offpert + mie team). Starmie generally appreciates Pokemon that can keep pressure on opposing special walls so that they can’t heal, so options like Aerodactyl and Salamence or Taunt users like Gyarados and Gengar work to keep up momentum (aero+mie very rare, and aero/gyara don't even lure in bliss anyway. i'd remove them. i also don't really know about offmie+mence; usually it's more defmie+mence. i'd ask around).

Another way to use this Starmie is to control the Spikes game&mdash keep up more Spikes than your opponent to wear down the opposing team so that Starmie can sweep. Skarmory and Forretress are great options to set up Spikes, while even the more offensive Cloyster and Smeargle can work on faster pace teams (i think smear and cloy should be downplayed a lot because aero usually works better there). Skarmory is the most common choice, as it helps the team’s defensive core the best of the Spikes users, but Forretress is quite nice too, as it allows Starmie to drop Rapid Spin and typically needs Pursuit support, so Starmie could run Modest. Gengar is also nice on these teams, as it is the best Spinblocker in the tier and can also use the aforementioned Explosion to lure in and remove special walls (wow taunt also helps bring bliss down). Another relatively rare option to keep the Spikes advantage is to use Claydol alongside Starmie, as like Forretress, it frees up Starmie to run Psychic or Recover and provides a Rock-resist and additional Explosion for special walls. Due to Starmie’s defensive liabilities, it commonly prefers defensive teammates on Spikes teams, as such, strong special answers like Blissey and Jirachi and good physical walls such as Swampert, defensive Metagross, and Flygon. These options often make up the core of common Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams alongside Tyranitar, Gengar, and Skarmory. (this whole paragraph goes up right after sand, because spikes is the most common way to use offmie)

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Recover
move 3: Surf
move 4: Thunder Wave / Psychic / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Defensive Starmie is one of the three consistent spinners in the tier alongside Forretress and Claydol while also acting as check to many dangerous threats with its speed, Recover, and Water-typing.

With max HP investment and Recover, Starmie gains the bulk and survivability needed to switch in repeatedly to remove Spikes with Rapid Spin. The 40 SpA guarantees a 2HKO on max HP Tyranitar with Surf while Timid 216 outspeeds up to Gengar, only falling short to opposing Starmie, Salac boosted Swampert, and Raikou. Surf is commonly chosen as the main attacking option on this Starmie for general damage while also being Starmie’s best option against Tyranitar, Skarmory, Forretress, and all of the threats it checks, like Moltres, Swampert, and Metagross. In the last slot, Starmie has several options. The most prominent of these is Thunder Wave&mdash Thunder Wave allows Starmie to be less passive by paralyzing dangerous set up threats not bothered by a weak Surf, like Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragon Dance Gyarados without Taunt, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi as well as generally crippling Starmie switch-ins such as Zapdos, Jolteon, Snorlax, and defensive Jirachi. (talk about how sometimes mie can twave sac against zap as a last resort to disable it; really helps since spinmie teams are slow) Thunder Wave is also a nice general tool, as Ground-types immune to it do not enjoy Surf, and allowing it to better check Metagross, Aerodactyl, and mixed Salamence. Thunder Wave helps Starmie in the Spikes game by paralyzing Skarmory and Gengar, making them less likely to try and beat Starmie with Toxic + Protect and switching in to spinblock it, respectively. Starmie, similar to its offensive set, additionally has access to other coverage&mdash Psychic is fantastic for a Gengar trying to block Rapid Spin while also checking Fighting-types. Thunderbolt assists Starmie in its role as a Gyarados counter in addition to completely owning the Cloyster matchup and hitting Skarmory much harder than Surf. On the other hand, Ice Beam allows Starmie to be a strong Salamence, Flygon, and Breloom counter while being less passive against Zapdos and defensive Celebi. The best coverage choice of these options generally depends on what the team is weakest to most, whereas Thunder Wave is the best for general purposes.

This Starmie generally competes for a slot on a team with Claydol, as Forretress typically requires Pursuit support to Rapid Spin against Gengar. In comparison to Claydol, Starmie lacks immunity to sand and Spikes, a Rock-resistance, and access to the immediate power in Explosion or a tool to beat Toxic Skarmory in Refresh. On the other hand, Starmie beats all non-Toxic variants of Skarmory, is much faster, gets access to Thunder Wave and stronger coverage, and can heal status and health with Natural Cure and Recover, respectively. While both options are quite passive, Claydol invites dangerous Ground immune threats like mixed Salamence, Moltres, and Charizard more than Starmie, whereas Starmie gives free reign to Calm Mind threats like Celebi, Suicune, and Jirachi due to the lack of Explosion for Celebi and Suicune or strong Ground-type STAB in Jirachi’s case. Starmie generally comes in quite often to remove Spikes, check dangerous threats, and spread status with Thunder Wave. However, Starmie struggles heavily with both Toxic + Protect Skarmory as well as Hidden Power Bug Forretress, so it often better for it come in and remove Spikes after they are lain instead of on Skarmory and Forretress setting up Spikes. Despite Starmie’s access to Recover and increased bulk, it isn’t especially bulky&mdash Starmie can often be forced into Recover loops on the various threats it checks with some chip damage, whereas it can be difficult to remove Spikes should one be too cavalier with its health early game.

Starmie also has access to other EV spreads – 32 SpD allows Starmie to avoid the OHKO after sand damage from Pursuit Tyranitar. Additionally, Starmie can put the extra SpA into speed to outrun Salac boosted Endeavor Swampert&mdash this allows Starmie to be less passive by outspeeding and easily removing it rather than be forced to spam Recover as it uses Endeavor. Starmie can also run considerably less speed or even a Bold nature&mdash the minimum amount of speed seen is 16 Speed, enough to outspeed max base 85 like Heracross and Suicune. The amount of speed to run is heavily dependent on the team; a Bold nature and heavy defense investment allows Starmie to act as a better check to Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl, whereas greater speed allow Starmie to check Gengar, Charizard, Salamence, and Moltres better as it can hit them hard with super-effective attacks while healing off their damage with Recover more easily. Another tradeoff of speed is in how Starmie is played; slower Starmie sets often are played in a similar matter to Milotic as a bulky wall but also can Rapid Spin, whereas faster Starmie sets are better against Spikes teams due to outspeeding Gengar and having enough defensive options that the these teams typically forced to stall it out or fish for critical hits to beat it.

Team Options
========
Defensive Starmie typically fits on balanced teams that need Spikes removal while being able to afford its passivity. Due to Starmie’s ability to defeat most Spikes users other than Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Hidden Power Bug Forretress, Starmie teams typically do not feature Magneton. Instead, Starmie teams typically beat Skarmory down with threats such mixed Tyranitar and Salamence with Fire Blast. However, to afford Starmie’s passivity, it commonly needs to be paired with strong physical and special pivots to counteract its proclivity to be set up on. These are commonly physically defensive Metagross with Protect on the physical side, whereas Blissey or specially defensive Celebi handle the special side. Physically defensive Metagross can handle Snorlax and most Jirachi, while generally tanking boosted threats such as Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and Dragon Dance Gyarados and using Explosion or Meteor Mash for the KO in return. Blissey and Celebi can withstand Suicune, while also forming status pivots with Starmie for stalling out Milotic and defensive Jirachi. One of the more prominent threats this archetype struggles with is Heracross, and as such, commonly carries physically bulky Wish or mixed Salamence or Gengar to switch into Megahorn repeatedly. Starmie also fits well alongside Fighting-types like Medicham and especially well with those with Guts such as Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp. This gives the team the ability to beat Toxic + Protect Skarmory, as they can repeatedly fire off potentially boosted Focus Punch for free since Skarmory will typically lack Drill Peck. Starmie can also fit on general Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes teammates such as Tyranitar, Swampert, Gengar, the aforementioned Blissey, and Skarmory; however, care should be taken that the team isn’t too passive due to lacking a strong cleaner. These types teams typically run Dugtrio in the Gengar slot to try to win the Spikes game by having more Spikes than opponent rather than spinblocking with Gengar (not exactly sure i'd generalize as such about dug, should ask around).

(something should be said that the paraspam archetype talked about below is relatively rare. don't wanna give ppl the impression that you can just fit marowak and rhydon everywhere)
Defensive Starmie also fits well on teams that focus on paralyzing the opponent, such as with Porygon2, defensive Jirachi, Thunder Wave Zapdos, and Snorlax. These types of teams commonly struggle with Spikes and benefit from the unique array of Pokemon Starmie can check, such as Moltres, Charizard, Swampert, and Metagross. However, Starmie should not be the only checks to these Pokemon on these teams, as it can be easily overwhelmed with that kind of defensive responsibility. However, this allows them to use more offensive checks to Skarmory, such as Choice Band Metagross Explosion and the aforementioned Guts Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp (these fellas aren't checks to skarm, more like lures. also cbmeta with mie behind probably wont be booming skarm as much as via beatdown and spin later). In addition, Pokemon that generally take advantage of Paralysis, such as Marowak, Substitute Tyranitar, and Rhydon fit well here (cursepert too). Marowak is especially nice here, as it can provide a pseudo Rock resistance while heavily threatening most of the metagame with Paralysis support.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Starmie has just a wide enough movepool for its two standard sets and their variations. However, Starmie does have several other options beyond this. On the offensive set, one of these other options in the last slot is Hidden Power Grass. It guarantees the 2HKO on Swampert without having to use Hydro Pump while also giving Starmie a good option to hit Quagsire and the rare Lanturn. However, missing out on Rapid Spin support or the general strong neutral attack in Psychic can be painful. Additionally, Starmie can also run Surf in the last slot and even Thunder over Thunderbolt. Surf gives an accurate options on a threat that can KO Starmie back if it misses Hydro Pump, such as a low HP Metagross, Magneton, or Aerodactyl. Thunder seems gimmicky, but it gives a guaranteed 2HKO in sand on Milotic, which can otherwise attempt to defeat Starmie with Toxic + Recover. It also and generally hits Electric-weak threats like Skarmory much harder than Thunderbolt when it hits. On the defensive set, the most prominent option is to use Toxic. Toxic allows Starmie to act as less bulky Milotic that can Rapid Spin, forcing Toxic on the many threats it checks. It notably allows it to beat Swampert more easily while eventually forcing Blissey out. Toxic unfortunately doesn’t make Starmie’s job of removing Spikes any easier due to Skarmory, Forretress, and Gengar’s immunity to it, however. Starmie also has access to both Reflect and Light Screen, which can assist teammates while also helping itself survive Explosion and Pursuit Tyranitar for Reflect and Light Screen, respectively. Starmie can only fit one screen, while both of these options make Starmie considerably more passive than it already is, however

Checks and Counters
===================
**Special Walls**: Even offensive Starmie will make little progress against special walls like Blissey, Umbreon, Snorlax, defensive Jirachi, specially defensive Celebi, and even Umbreon, Regice and Registeel. Blissey and Umbreon are the hardest Starmie counters in the game, as Blissey takes little damage from anything Starmie can do while Umbreon is in a similar situation but instead can Toxic + Pursuit Starmie to guarantee removal (talk about blissey alone, don't mix it up with umbreon, which belongs all the way at the back of this paragraph. while umbreon may be specifically good at tanking and trapping mie, it's not useful to the reader to talk about a niche bl mon together with starmie's best ou counter. also, i don't think umb is that good. you only get to wish or suit, not both, and the wrong move gets umbreon locked into a threatening ttar/meta switch. not good. at least bliss can absorb damage with impunity and doesnt have to heal immediately). Snorlax and Regice are less bulky but can take multiple hits and can reply with powerful attacks. Jirachi and Celebi fulfill this niche as well, but can heal and hit hard 2HKO back with Electric coverage and Hidden Power Grass, respectively (mention that cel is terrible vs ice beam due to freeze and crits here; i dont think the statement later about being vulnerable to hax universally applies to lax/rachi as much as it does to cel). Registeel takes little damage from anything Starmie can do. However, all threats need to be careful, as they are vulnerable to Spikes and (mention especially in the case of bliss invites threatening physicals ttar/meta/lax, maybe integrate it with the last sentence) all but Blissey can be vulnerable to critical hits and Ice Beam freezes in Celebi’s case. They all wall the defensive set easily but give up a facile Rapid Spin.

**Bulky Electric-Types** Jolteon, Zapdos, Lanturn, and Raikou all potentially can tank a hit from offensive Starmie and easily remove both variants with Thunderbolt. Jolteon outspeeds all Starmie variants, whereas Raikou can tie. Both are bulky enough to take one hits with three layers of Spikes down, while Raikou can sometimes take 2 Hydro Pump hits if Spikes aren’t down. Lanturn easily takes on Starmie's coverage while retaliating with its own Thunderbolt. Zapdos can’t outspeed offensive Starmie, but bulky sets can take 2 Ice Beams, while offensive sets can take any attack and remove it. Zapdos is also notably the only prominent Starmie check immune to Spikes.

**Revengeing killing** Offensive Starmie’s damage output often makes switching in quite hard, but upon KOing a Pokemon, switching in a full health or faster check often can remove it. Jolly Dugtrio and Aerodactyl only need a small amount of chip damage to remove bulkless Starmie, whereas even Swampert and Metagross can survive a Hydro Pump at reasonable health and hit hard back. In desperate situations, max Hp Tyranitar can survive Timid offensive Starmie’s Hydro Pump at full health and hit hard with Hidden Power Bug or OHKO back with Crunch.

**Ghost-types** Gengar prevents Rapid Spin Starmie from doing its primary job by blocking Rapid Spin due to its Ghost-typing. Gengar can also hit Starmie hard with Thunderbolt, even OHKOing bulkless Starmie with significant SpA investment. However, offensive Starmie outspeeds and Psychic OHKOes Gengar unless it invests heavily in SpD (find a better way to phrase this. the sentence makes it sound like psychic is common on offmie and spdef gar is rare, when it is the reverse. also mention the implication of outspeeding - if mie catches gar on the switch with hydro and not spin then mie basically beats gar badly) and the defensive set can cripple it with Thunder Wave or also hit it with Psychic. Dusclops is rare but is both much bulkier than Gengar and not weak to Psychic as well as can retaliate with a strong STAB Shadow Ball.

**Set-up Threats** Defensive Starmie is quite vulnerable to being set-up on by threats that can shrug off both status and a weak Surf, like Calm Mind + Rest Suicune, Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, Curse Snorlax, Taunt or Rest + Dragon Dance Gyarados if Starmie lacks Thunderbolt, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi. These Pokemon, especially Calm Mind Jirachi, Curse Snorlax, and Calm Mind + RestTalk Suicune often heavily threaten the rest of the team.

**Water-type Resistances and Immunities** Defensive Starmie can do little damage to bulky Water-type resists such as Milotic and Celebi, whereas it can do no damage at all to Vaporeon and Quaqsire. Against offensive Starmie, these threats can at least bait out a weaker coverage move like Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to switch something else that can’t take 2 Hydro Pump hits.

**Dark-types** Tyranitar and the aforementioned Umbreon can work as defensive Starmie checks due to its weakness to Dark. Pursuit Tyranitar is 2HKOed by Surf from defensive Starmie and takes heavy damage from offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump, but it is one of the common ways to remove Starmie on Forretress teams that lack Hidden Power Bug due to Crunch OHKOing offensive Starmie and KOing defensive Starmie after some chip damage. Umbreon is probably the best counter in the tier (i wouldn't say so for reasons above) to Starmie as mentioned above.

**Heracross** Heracross can hit Starmie hard with its STAB Bug-type attacks. It is especially threatening, as its Megahorn easily OHKOs all forms of Starmie and only needs a small amount of bulk to survive even offensive Starmie’s Psychic. Heracross can also set-up Substitute + Swords Dance on defensive Starmie, while Guts Heracross enjoys taking a Thunder Wave to become even more powerful.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[johnnyg2, 57904]]
- Quality checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]

 

[johnnyg2]

I made the changes vapicuno thank you again for all of your help! I had several questions (its 1am local here, so I'll follow up on discord tomorrow)

Additionally, it allows Starmie’s team to perform the similar style that Claydol does (referencing dol here is a bit weird because someone who is learning about mie the fast time isn't expected to understand dol better than mie, maybe rephrase a bit after this deletion) on Skarmory beatdown teams&mdash repeatedly hit Skarmory hard while it sets up Spikes only to spin them away with an offensive threat.

On second going through, I think this is a pretty specific instance on something that is pretty rare anyway, so I just got rid of it

Starmie generally appreciates Pokemon that can keep pressure on opposing special walls so that they can’t heal, so options like Aerodactyl and Salamence or Taunt users like Gyarados and Gengar work to keep up momentum (aero+mie very rare, and aero/gyara don't even lure in bliss anyway. i'd remove them. i also don't really know about offmie+mence; usually it's more defmie+mence. i'd ask around).

Definitely agree about Gyara and Mence -- I've removed them. However, I'm not so sure about aero -- its not unheard of to see them together (well theres that UD team from like SPL 9 and then that Dizno team floating around). My main point is that you want teammates that can heavily dissuade Blissey from softboiling, so like don't go to Bliss if you can keep the pressure up and allow Starmie to clean. I think Taunt + WoW gar fits about that point, and I thought it was best time to fit Aero in. What do you think about the new wording?

These types teams typically run Dugtrio in the Gengar slot to try to win the Spikes game by having more Spikes than opponent rather than spinblocking with Gengar (not exactly sure i'd generalize as such about dug, should ask around).

I think the archetype I was going for here is pretty old (the one I had in mind when I wrote that was like CB Tar/Bliss/pert/dug/star/skarm), but I rewrote it bc I think your point stands -- lemme know what you think.

(something should be said that the paraspam archetype talked about below is relatively rare. don't wanna give ppl the impression that you can just fit marowak and rhydon everywhere)

I agree with the overall point here, but I do think these teams are becoming more viable as people are exploring them -- I added the relatively niche in the top, let me know if you think there needs to be more. Lets discuss more over discord

(talk about blissey alone, don't mix it up with umbreon, which belongs all the way at the back of this paragraph. while umbreon may be specifically good at tanking and trapping mie, it's not useful to the reader to talk about a niche bl mon together with starmie's best ou counter. also, i don't think umb is that good. you only get to wish or suit, not both, and the wrong move gets umbreon locked into a threatening ttar/meta switch. not good. at least bliss can absorb damage with impunity and doesnt have to heal immediately)

Definitely agree it should be moved down that list, but I think Umby can take off star hits pretty well. It does make you worse at pursuiting Gengar, but you take the Hydro comfortably enough (29.2 - 34.6% to 248 40+ Umbreon) that you don't have to Wish unless a lot of spikes are down. Ive tried teams w Umby being the only offstar check, and they work ehhh. The point about TTar meta is a good one. I think it should at least stay in the paragraph, but not as strong of an endorsement -- lemme know what you think

 

[vapicuno]

Definitely agree about Gyara and Mence -- I've removed them. However, I'm not so sure about aero -- its not unheard of to see them together (well theres that UD team from like SPL 9 and then that Dizno team floating around). My main point is that you want teammates that can heavily dissuade Blissey from softboiling, so like don't go to Bliss if you can keep the pressure up and allow Starmie to clean. I think Taunt + WoW gar fits about that point, and I thought it was best time to fit Aero in. What do you think about the new wording?

My issue is that aero does not lure bliss in. If you say that aero does not allow bliss to heal, then by extension ttar/meta/lax/fighters also do not let blissey in, though that's not really the point because they're going to their physical wall, not blissey. Gengar is different in that it forces bliss in to take some damage, so by the time bliss switches out if it comes back in at 40% starmie 2hkos. I think if you want to put aero in there, you have to find a different way to justify aero (tbh I don't have a very good idea of how to justify that even though I've built a offmie/aero team of my own).

The other points look good to me. One small change I would make in the following paragraph is to change "checks" (first sentence) and "counters" (last sentence) to "trappers" because it's more specific.

**Dark-types** Tyranitar and the aforementioned Umbreon can work as defensive Starmie checks due to its weakness to Dark. Pursuit Tyranitar is 2HKOed by Surf from defensive Starmie and takes heavy damage from offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump, but it is one of the common ways to remove Starmie on Forretress teams that lack Hidden Power Bug due to Crunch OHKOing offensive Starmie and KOing defensive Starmie after some chip damage. Umbreon is one of the better counters in the tier to Starmie due to its ability to Pursuit trap Starmie more comfortably.

 

[vapicuno]

QC 1/2. We can continue to discuss with the qc team whether/how to include aero and umbreon.

 

[mikmer]

Heyo!
Here's my quick check. [Part1/2]

Starmie’s other common competition as a Spinner, Claydol and Forretress, require more team support to survive throughout the game against status and residual damage.

i'd argue claydol requires less support than starmie as it fairs better vs both gengar & suit tar, not to mention it offers more "must have" resistances such as rock resist and ground and electric immunity, whereas mie has to be paired with a grounded steel or a ground type to complement its physical checking abilities.

Starmie’s Water / Psychic typing, sufficient bulk with investment, and Natural Cure allow it to check several common Pokemon as well, such as offensive Swampert, Metagross, Cloyster, Breloom, Blaziken, Moltres, and Charizard.

Meta & cloy can boom so id rephrase "check" with "trade", blaziken is not common so id exclude it from that list, Moltres & Charizard i'd keep but mention that Starmie needs to be faster(timid w speed investment) in order to reliably check them: on the other hand for pert it needs to be bold with def investment, also at the end mention that recover spamming is subject to getting crit in the long run and due to its lower bulk compared to something like milotic, starmie has to click recover a lot more often and it's more vulnerable to crits. (up to u how much u want to include of this sinc its an intro afterall)

Spikes teams without Toxic Skarmory typically make little progress against a Starmie + Blissey pairing

not true cause Gengar and especially suittar is a great way to make progress.

Additionally, Starmie only has base 100 SpA, and can struggle to muscle through defensive answers such as Blissey, Snorlax, Celebi, and Jirachi without having sand and Spikes to wear them down.

i would put blissey in a category of its own since even w spikes it's really hard to break.

As a defensive spinner, it instead becomes one of the most passive Pokemon in the tier, as anything that can shrug off a weak Surf or Thunder Wave will set up on it, such as Celebi, Snorlax, Suicune, Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi, Heracross, and Taunt Gyarados.

i would add "faster" before both subcmrachi & taunt gyara since their both weak to twave.

Its Water / Psychic typing and bulk aren’t amazing either—it can check dangerous threats, but many of them are close to 2HKOing even Bold Starmie, while Starmie relies on its speed to check Moltres and Charizard. This forces it to repeatedly use Recover and be vulnerable to critical hits and chip damage.

allright so u put the flaws here, maybe its better to merge everything in 1 sentence to avoid repetition about its checking prowess.

Hydro Pump is a must on this Starmie set despite its unreliability, as it gets damage rolls such as a OHKO on Tyranitar that don’t invest heavily in bulk, OHKO on Claydol, and a 2HKO on Gengar and Forretress.

this is a bit inaccurate since both claydola and forre are rolls

With Spikes down, Starmie becomes even harder to check, threatening a 2HKO on Metagross and a 3HKO on defensive Jirachi and Snorlax.

i would mention the spike in the context of OHKOing maxhp tar, and weakening boom lax over time but i really wouldnt mention spdef rachi since wish+tect can wall mie even at 50%, in fact instead i would mention recover celebi as being potentiallly 2hkoed w a spike down.

Psychic is a nice option for Gengar and Venusaur as well as Fighting-types such as Heracross, Hariyama, and Breloom. Psychic almost OHKOs specially bulky Gengar trying to block Rapid Spin, while also making Starmie a great pivot into either Taunt, Ice Punch, or Will-O-Wisp from this Gengar due to naturally outspeeding it.

idk about offmie pivoting into gar's wisp, you are essentially trading at that point, since tbolt will kill after 2 rounds of burn and gengar might survive psychic as you noted.

Starmie threatens an OHKO on bulkless Heracross and Breloom and a 2HKO on bulky Heracross and Hariyama—

again its a very low roll to kill hera from full (12,5%), and bulkless loom dies to ice beam, so maybe say chipped heracross & bulky breloom, or mention it in the context of modest improving rolls(ohko of hera/tar, 2hko of forre/meta/skarm)

It allows Starmie to perform some of its defensive roles, such as being a status pivot with Natural Cure and covering Moltres and Charizard’s Fire-type attacks with its speed.

i would add that it becomes a better pivot into mixmence.

Starmie generally plays as an offensive cleaner and revenge killer on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams or as an early wallbreaker on teams without Spikes

idk about "early wallbreaker" offmie will always be a cleaner with or without spikes.

However, even the more offensive Cloyster and Smeargle can work on faster pace teams, but these pairing are relatively niche due to Aerodactyl.

Wdym here? you mean that aero is a better choice than mie alongside cloy/smear, or you mean than cloy/smear + offmie is too weak to aero?

Skarmory is the most common choice, as it helps the team’s defensive core the best of the Spikes users, but Forretress is quite nice too, as it allows Starmie to drop Rapid Spin and typically needs Pursuit support, so Starmie could run Modest.

4atks modest offmie + forre is super uncommon( i know u like these teams), but i personally wouldnt mention it.

Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi is particularly synergetic, as it can pass Calm Mind to Starmie for is to muscle past its checks.

i would add "more easily" at the end here since bliss is still a bitch even w a couple boosts.

Starmie generally appreciates Pokemon that can keep pressure on opposing special walls so that they can’t heal, an example of this being Taunt + Will-O-Wisp Gengar on faster pace teams.

i would mention taunt wow in the tss section since as you mentioned before gar on special offense runs boom.

Strong Fighting-types like Hariyama, Heracross, Breloom, Machamp, and Medicham are especially good alongside Starmie, as they can take advantage of bulky Normal-types like the aforementioned Blissey and Snorlax to fire off strong attacks into the opponent’s team. These work especially well alongside Recover + Rapid Spin Starmie, as they can repeatedly fire off strong a Focus Punch into Toxic + Protect Skarmory, while Starmie beats Drill Peck versions.

say this instead at the end of bulky mie team option since thats the set that is paired w fighters, and add a special mention for para support that eases the job of slower fighters like yama/champ.

finishing this later today or tmrw.

 

[vapicuno]

i'd argue claydol requires less support than starmie as it fairs better vs both gengar & suit tar, not to mention it offers more "must have" resistances such as rock resist and ground and electric immunity, whereas mie has to be paired with a grounded steel or a ground type to complement its physical checking abilities.

Agree for Claydol. Starmie is not considered superior to Claydol as a spinner.

Meta & cloy can boom so id rephrase "check" with "trade", blaziken is not common so id exclude it from that list, Moltres & Charizard i'd keep but mention that Starmie needs to be faster(timid w speed investment) in order to reliably check them: on the other hand for pert it needs to be bold with def investment, also at the end mention that recover spamming is subject to getting crit in the long run and due to its lower bulk compared to something like milotic, starmie has to click recover a lot more often and it's more vulnerable to crits. (up to u how much u want to include of this sinc its an intro afterall)

For an intro this is already considered a bit much (though there is no other good place to write this info), so I am against adding even more detail, so I am fine with the word "check". Mentioning "trade" means one will have to split it into two sentences, and sometimes it really does check them if they don't want to trade, so :shrug:

Additionally, it can often form status pivots with Celebi and Blissey—Spikes teams without Toxic Skarmory typically make little progress against a Starmie + Blissey pairing, while Pokemon like Breloom will be almost useless versus a Starmie and defensive Celebi core.

Agree with mikmer at least that this point is not so black and white. But I will go even further to say perhaps this slightly misses the point of status pivoting? imo, dual natural cure status pivoting is more for dealing with milo/refpert/toxbliss which absolutely cannot make progress, not for tox skarm, which can spike while you switch around (and maybe double into zap/suit tar to deny spin as mikmer said) I would remove the part about Breloom since it has nothing to do with natural cure (it's more the double psychic recover property, but that is too much detail and I would just happily leave it as starmie checking breloom), and instead of tox skarm I would talk about pivoting around Toxic from milo/pert/bliss.

i would put blissey in a category of its own since even w spikes it's really hard to break.

Can just say something like "the special walls celebi, jirachi, snorlax, and especially blissey". I would also remove the "only has base 100 SpA" part since that number is meaningless without context and unactionable anyway

i would add "faster" before both subcmrachi & taunt gyara since their both weak to twave.

Disagree, this is game state dependent. If rachi/gyara come in before mie and sub/dd then even faster mie cannot twave them. Also, even if you disregard this point, usually "faster" in c&c refers to the speed stat without boosts anyway.

allright so u put the flaws here, maybe its better to merge everything in 1 sentence to avoid repetition about its checking prowess.

I think the whole introduction is written in a pros vs cons manner and we should stick to it. However, I acknowledge your point, and this is a rather nuanced point that is not easy to address. I think we can remove the Charizard/Moltres point since its nuanced and the main set uses Timid anyway.

this is a bit inaccurate since both claydola and forre are rolls

"has a significant chance (idk what the roll is) of OHKOing Claydol etc"

i would mention the spike in the context of OHKOing maxhp tar, and weakening boom lax over time but i really wouldnt mention spdef rachi since wish+tect can wall mie even at 50%, in fact instead i would mention recover celebi as being potentiallly 2hkoed w a spike down.

sure

idk about offmie pivoting into gar's wisp, you are essentially trading at that point, since tbolt will kill after 2 rounds of burn and gengar might survive psychic as you noted.

maybe not "great" pivot but "better" pivot

again its a very low roll to kill hera from full (12,5%), and bulkless loom dies to ice beam, so maybe say chipped heracross & bulky breloom, or mention it in the context of modest improving rolls(ohko of hera/tar, 2hko of forre/meta/skarm)

the problem with this whole ohko 2hko thing is that mie frequently plays under an unknown number of spikes, so spikes will do the job anyway. "chipped" as mikmer said is a good compromise.

covering Moltres and Charizard’s Fire-type attacks with its speed

i just reread this. think you can drop "with its speed", and be more exact and say recover off damage from molt and zard while they are forced out. trying to make the link with speed needs a leap of logic.

idk about "early wallbreaker" offmie will always be a cleaner with or without spikes.

think i agree, unless johnny wants to explain this.

4atks modest offmie + forre is super uncommon( i know u like these teams), but i personally wouldnt mention it.

think the issue with this sentence generally is that it has too many points in it (1. skarmory because defensive 2. forre also ok to do spin 3. but needs pursuit 4. but then maybe can consider offmie here) sounds more like a conversation than prose.

i would add "more easily" at the end here since bliss is still a bitch even w a couple boosts.

sure why not

i would mention taunt wow in the tss section since as you mentioned before gar on special offense runs boom.

Starmie generally appreciates Pokemon that can keep pressure on opposing special walls so that they can’t heal, an example of this being Taunt + Will-O-Wisp Gengar on faster pace teams.

hmm, kind of questioning the "faster paced" thing here. wow taunt is pretty universal, fast or slow. maybe scrap that "faster paced" part. i think its fine to leave it there though, not sure...

say this instead at the end of bulky mie team option since thats the set that is paired w fighters, and add a special mention for para support that eases the job of slower fighters like yama/champ.

i honestly think that offmie and defmie can both be ok with fighters (there was a nice game where hclat used a spikeless hera + offmie offense vs asta), and fighters are mentioned in both sections anyway, so i am ok to leave the fighter mention there.



.

 

[mikmer]

Part 2

Strong Fighting-types like Hariyama, Heracross, Breloom, Machamp, and Medicham are especially good alongside Starmie, as they can take advantage of bulky Normal-types like the aforementioned Blissey and Snorlax to fire off strong attacks into the opponent’s team. These work especially well alongside Recover + Rapid Spin Starmie, as they can repeatedly fire off strong a Focus Punch into Toxic + Protect Skarmory, while Starmie beats Drill Peck versions.

i honestly think that offmie and defmie can both be ok with fighters (there was a nice game where hclat used a spikeless hera + offmie offense vs asta), and fighters are mentioned in both sections anyway, so i am ok to leave the fighter mention there.

Allright, then i would add an additional synergy of starmie being a useful check to mix/dd mence that often comes in on fighters.

Thunder Wave allows Starmie to be less passive by paralyzing dangerous set up threats not bothered by a weak Surf, like Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragon Dance Gyarados without Taunt, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi as well as generally crippling Starmie switch-ins such as Zapdos, Jolteon, Snorlax, and defensive Jirachi.

Instead of saying it cripples sub cm rachi just say cm rachi in general since t-wave cripples both superrachi and wish cm rachi just as well.

Thunder Wave helps Starmie in the Spikes game by paralyzing Skarmory and Gengar, making them less likely to try and beat Starmie with Toxic + Protect and switching in to spinblock it, respectively.

i know you mention Gengar a couple times but imo you should put even more emphasys on the fact that Gar really hates switching into t-wave since a paralyzed Gar becomes almost useless offensively, otherwise without t-wave spdef gar is a big nuisance since surf does not 2hko.

Thunderbolt assists Starmie against Gyarados in addition to completely owning the Cloyster matchup and hitting Skarmory much harder than Surf.

i would change "completely owning" to "improving" since Cloyster can always boom and that would result in a trade wheter u have tbolt or not.

While both options are quite passive, Claydol invites dangerous Ground immune threats like mixed Salamence, Moltres, and Charizard more than Starmie, whereas Starmie gives free reign to Calm Mind threats like Celebi, Suicune, and Jirachi due to the lack of Explosion for Celebi and Suicune or strong Ground-type STAB in Jirachi’s case.

Idk if it's right to include cm Rachi as a big threat to starmie since t-wave cripples it. Here i might just rephrase the entire sentence saying that claydol if needed can "switch gears" and "advance" the game state by breaking a stall mirror with Explosion eliminating a key threat/wall(Celebi/Suicune/dd mence being good examples), while starmie can't do that and has to stay on the defensive the whole game perhaps aiming to pp stall its way to victory.

However, Starmie struggles heavily with both Toxic + Protect Skarmory as well as Hidden Power Bug Forretress, so it often better for it come in and remove Spikes after they are lain instead of on Skarmory and Forretress setting up Spikes.

Another point is that if starmie comes in on the spiker and click spin every time it becomes very vulnerable to getting trapped by pursuit tyranitar.

a Bold nature and heavy defense investment allows Starmie to act as a better check to Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl,

just a minor note here maybe put "physical" before tyranitar just so it's differentiated from crunch/suit variants.

These types teams sometimes run Dugtrio as a way to checkmate opponents weakened by Spikes in the longer games this Starmie is more prominent in.

Expand a bit on the synergy between dug and mie: Dugtrio being able to remove Pursuit tar and revenge kill cm celebi and perhaps sneak in on a paralysed blissey/rachi to trap them and advance the game state; also starmie does quite well against non-heracross fighters so dug is nice to get rid of hera; additionally a lot of "dug punishers" like dd mence/gyara, Moltres/zard, mixmence are stuffed by starmie.

while also giving Starmie a good option to hit the rare Lanturn

kek

Overall really good analysis.
QC 2/2 once implemented(if vapi agrees )

 

[vapicuno]

Allright, then i would add an additional synergy of starmie being a useful check to mix/dd mence that often comes in on fighters.

agree, esp for defmie.

Instead of saying it cripples sub cm rachi just say cm rachi in general since t-wave cripples both superrachi and wish cm rachi just as well.

agree

i know you mention Gengar a couple times but imo you should put even more emphasys on the fact that Gar really hates switching into t-wave since a paralyzed Gar becomes almost useless offensively, otherwise without t-wave spdef gar is a big nuisance since surf does not 2hko.

maybe just an extra sentence will do

i would change "completely owning" to "improving" since Cloyster can always boom and that would result in a trade wheter u have tbolt or not.

yeah, owning isn't a c&c word anyway i think

Idk if it's right to include cm Rachi as a big threat to starmie since t-wave cripples it. Here i might just rephrase the entire sentence saying that claydol if needed can "switch gears" and "advance" the game state by breaking a stall mirror with Explosion eliminating a key threat/wall(Celebi/Suicune/dd mence being good examples), while starmie can't do that and has to stay on the defensive the whole game perhaps aiming to pp stall its way to victory.

i am in support of mikmer's point about the rephrasing and switching gears. for rachi, it's a bit ambiguous - i'd perhaps remove the talk about rachi. another thing - i'd remove the part about charizard threatening claydol because many dol teams have cune or milo.

Another point is that if starmie comes in on the spiker and click spin every time it becomes very vulnerable to getting trapped by pursuit tyranitar.

agree to add

just a minor note here maybe put "physical" before tyranitar just so it's differentiated from crunch/suit variants.

sure why not

Expand a bit on the synergy between dug and mie: Dugtrio being able to remove Pursuit tar and revenge kill cm celebi and perhaps sneak in on a paralysed blissey/rachi to trap them and advance the game state; also starmie does quite well against non-heracross fighters so dug is nice to get rid of hera; additionally a lot of "dug punishers" like dd mence/gyara, Moltres/zard, mixmence are stuffed by starmie.

good additions

kek

comic relief is good

 

[johnnyg2]

Thanks for taking a look at it mikmer! Will get this done in the next few days!

 

[Zokuru]

Hi ! Pretty long and good analysis again, here are some changes I'd make ( vapicuno will obviously approve or disapprove them, I'm just giving my 2 cents )

• HP Grass should be slashed in the main set for Offensive Starmie, I don't think it's that much inferior to Psychic, or Psychic should go to OO, I think Rapid Spin and Recover are the 2 best options on Offensive Mie. Also maybe mention 2 attacks offensive Mie somewhere with Recover and Rapid Spin, it has seen play and it's not a bad set.
• Mention an heavily Defense invested slower bulky Starmie set in order to be a reliable answer to Offensive Swampert.
• Add that Defensive Starmie likes the help of Pursuit Tyranitar, even tho it's not mendatory ( If it's somewhere already and I missed it then ignore that, but I think it's not )
• Maybe talk about the way defensive starmie and heavily mess up with blissey and is very good at preventing stall teams and defensive TSS from putting your team in a clock, which allow you to play slowly with pokemon such as medicham or metagross to beat them in the long run.

I don't see anything else, that's not too much but the analysis is already very good, so there's not so much to change ! Have a nice day

 

[johnnyg2]

Alright, I've made the Mikmer changes, once I get confirmation that I've addressed everything, I'll send it off the QC

Zok -- I will get to yours as soon as I finish up Mikmer's/Vapi's. Thank you again for looking at it!

Part 1
i'd argue claydol requires less support than starmie as it fairs better vs both gengar & suit tar, not to mention it offers more "must have" resistances such as rock resist and ground and electric immunity, whereas mie has to be paired with a grounded steel or a ground type to complement its physical checking abilities.

Good point, I've revised the analysis to have this. here's what I put at the original sentence

Starmie’s other common competition as a Spinner, Claydol and Forretress, struggle against status and residual damage.

and this at end of the third paragraph

Starmie's competition as a spinner in Claydol and Forretress have much higher defensive stats and more desirably resistances, including an immunity to sand and Levitate for Claydol, leading them to be more resilient against this chip damage.

Meta & cloy can boom so id rephrase "check" with "trade", blaziken is not common so id exclude it from that list, Moltres & Charizard i'd keep but mention that Starmie needs to be faster(timid w speed investment) in order to reliably check them: on the other hand for pert it needs to be bold with def investment, also at the end mention that recover spamming is subject to getting crit in the long run and due to its lower bulk compared to something like milotic, starmie has to click recover a lot more often and it's more vulnerable to crits. (up to u how much u want to include of this sinc its an intro afterall)

I agree w Vapi here, I'm trying to get a lot out of the word check here and there's a lot of nuance I'm skipping over bc of the intro (like your trade vs check point for meta and cloy, speed for zard and molt, the ev arrangements). I got rid of blaziken and i mention the bulk stuff in the next paragraph

not true cause Gengar and especially suittar is a great way to make progress.

I think I did miss the point -- Protox skarm def does make progress against this pair by spiking, while the spore point isn't as salient. I just adapted Vapi's wording here about the toxic walls like this

Additionally, it can often form status pivots with Celebi and Blissey—walls with status moves, such as Toxic Milotic, Swampert, and Blissey, will make no progress as they can pivot around and remove status

i would put blissey in a category of its own since even w spikes it's really hard to break.

I put the especially compromise vapi mentioned

allright so u put the flaws here, maybe its better to merge everything in 1 sentence to avoid repetition about its checking prowess.

I see your point, but there's a lot here to merge into one sentence -- I did make the speed zard and molt point change and just removed it

this is a bit inaccurate since both claydola and forre are rolls

Yeah I knew they were rolls, but didn't realize how low of a roll it was when I was writing. I've changed up the wording to this, and also tried to incorporate the next rachi point

Hydro Pump is a must on this Starmie set despite its unreliability, as it gets damage rolls such as a OHKO on Tyranitar that don’t invest heavily in bulk, a chance to OHKO Claydol, a 2HKO on Gengar, and a chance to 2HKO Forretress. With Spikes down, Starmie becomes even harder to check, threatening a 2HKO on Metagross and a 3HKO on Snorlax while also making making the previous rolls such as the OHKO on Tyranitar a certainty. It also helps to wear down defensive Jirachi.

idk about offmie pivoting into gar's wisp, you are essentially trading at that point, since tbolt will kill after 2 rounds of burn and gengar might survive psychic as you noted.

Yeah, its def a risk I've made before, but I swapped to the vapi wording as your point is a good one.

again its a very low roll to kill hera from full (12,5%), and bulkless loom dies to ice beam, so maybe say chipped heracross & bulky breloom, or mention it in the context of modest improving rolls(ohko of hera/tar, 2hko of forre/meta/skarm)

I used the chipped language vapi described

i would add that it becomes a better pivot into mixmence.

Done -- I also removed the speed part from what vapi mentioned below

idk about "early wallbreaker" offmie will always be a cleaner with or without spikes.

Ok, I ended up removing this part and just said cleaner, but my idea was on the rapid spin + recover set. You can switch in into non tbolt/tox bliss early game if spikes are down and eventually force it out bc it can't kill you. This allows you to smack something w pump. I'm also thinking on those fighter linear teams he has where he uses off mie as a spinner and early game offense w/o spikes. This is prob too nuanced so i removed it.

Wdym here? you mean that aero is a better choice than mie alongside cloy/smear, or you mean than cloy/smear + offmie is too weak to aero?

The former, but it also is pretty aero weak too on hindsight. I ended up changing the language here too for the next point about offmie and forre (I decided to remove the forre mention entirely, lemme know what you think)

However, even the more offensive Cloyster and Smeargle can work on faster pace teams, however these are niche. Skarmory is the most common choice, as it helps the team’s defensive core the best of the Spikes users.

i would add "more easily" at the end here since bliss is still a bitch even w a couple boosts.

done

i would mention taunt wow in the tss section since as you mentioned before gar on special offense runs boom.

I moved the mention earlier up in the tss section and just removed that sentence entirely, it isnt necessary

Allright, then i would add an additional synergy of starmie being a useful check to mix/dd mence that often comes in on fighters.

Done, good point! added this "Starmie is also a nice check to Salamence, a common check for these Pokemon." to the end

Instead of saying it cripples sub cm rachi just say cm rachi in general since t-wave cripples both superrachi and wish cm rachi just as well.

Done

i know you mention Gengar a couple times but imo you should put even more emphasys on the fact that Gar really hates switching into t-wave since a paralyzed Gar becomes almost useless offensively, otherwise without t-wave spdef gar is a big nuisance since surf does not 2hko.

I added this in "Gengar especially becomes almost useless offensively once paralyzed." after the protox skarm point. Agree we need to emphasize

i would change "completely owning" to "improving" since Cloyster can always boom and that would result in a trade wheter u have tbolt or not.

Yeah I don't know why I put that here and agree the new wording is better

Idk if it's right to include cm Rachi as a big threat to starmie since t-wave cripples it. Here i might just rephrase the entire sentence saying that claydol if needed can "switch gears" and "advance" the game state by breaking a stall mirror with Explosion eliminating a key threat/wall(Celebi/Suicune/dd mence being good examples), while starmie can't do that and has to stay on the defensive the whole game perhaps aiming to pp stall its way to victory.

Ok, I changed up the wording -- still think even paralyzed cm rachi is a big threat if the team is passive/your meta or bliss is down. let me know what you think of the wording cause I agree emphasizing dol's boom is big

This Starmie generally competes for a slot on a team with Claydol, as Forretress typically requires Pursuit support to Rapid Spin against Gengar. In comparison to Claydol, Starmie lacks immunity to sand and Spikes, a Rock-resistance, and access to the immediate power to open up defensive teams in Explosion or a tool to beat Toxic Skarmory in Refresh. On the other hand, Starmie beats all non-Toxic variants of Skarmory, is much faster, gets access to Thunder Wave and stronger coverage, and can heal status and health with Natural Cure and Recover, respectively. While both options are quite passive, Claydol can go on the offensive with Explosion to remove a key threat such as Celebi, Suicune, or Salamence whereas Starmie is forced to go on the defensive the whole game, possibly even to PP stall with its massive amount of PP.

Another point is that if starmie comes in on the spiker and click spin every time it becomes very vulnerable to getting trapped by pursuit tyranitar.

a Bold nature and heavy defense investment allows Starmie to act as a better check to Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl,

I added both of these points

Expand a bit on the synergy between dug and mie: Dugtrio being able to remove Pursuit tar and revenge kill cm celebi and perhaps sneak in on a paralysed blissey/rachi to trap them and advance the game state; also starmie does quite well against non-heracross fighters so dug is nice to get rid of hera; additionally a lot of "dug punishers" like dd mence/gyara, Moltres/zard, mixmence are stuffed by starmie.

Ok I just made this into a new paragraph explaining this more cause I think its a good point and expands on those dug star skarm bliss meta/tar gar teams, lemme know what you think

Starmie can also fit on general Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes teammates such as Tyranitar, Swampert, Gengar, the aforementioned Blissey, and Skarmory; however, care should be taken that the team isn’t too passive due to lacking a strong cleaner. These types teams sometimes run Dugtrio as a way to checkmate opponents weakened by Spikes in the longer games this Starmie is more prominent in. Dugtrio also removes some prominent Starmie answers—Dugtrio traps Calm Mind Celebi and Pursuit Tyranitar, while it can also sneak in paralyzed Blissey and Jirachi and remove them as well. A Starmie and Dugtrio pairing is also nice for against opposing Fighting-type Pokemon, as Starmie handles most of them besides Heracross, which Dugtrio traps. Starmie also checks prominent Ground immune threats trying to take advantage of Dugtrio, such as Salamence, Gyarados, Charizard, and Moltres.

comic relief is good

;)

 

[johnnyg2]

Hi ! Pretty long and good analysis again, here are some changes I'd make ( vapicuno will obviously approve or disapprove them, I'm just giving my 2 cents )

• HP Grass should be slashed in the main set for Offensive Starmie, I don't think it's that much inferior to Psychic, or Psychic should go to OO, I think Rapid Spin and Recover are the 2 best options on Offensive Mie. Also maybe mention 2 attacks offensive Mie somewhere with Recover and Rapid Spin, it has seen play and it's not a bad set.
• Mention an heavily Defense invested slower bulky Starmie set in order to be a reliable answer to Offensive Swampert.
• Add that Defensive Starmie likes the help of Pursuit Tyranitar, even tho it's not mendatory ( If it's somewhere already and I missed it then ignore that, but I think it's not )
• Maybe talk about the way defensive starmie and heavily mess up with blissey and is very good at preventing stall teams and defensive TSS from putting your team in a clock, which allow you to play slowly with pokemon such as medicham or metagross to beat them in the long run.

I don't see anything else, that's not too much but the analysis is already very good, so there's not so much to change ! Have a nice day

I'm not so sure on Hp Grass being slashed in on Off star. I think Psy is a cut above grass (I know altina loves it), and I agree w you that recover and spin are the better options. I believe I mentioned Spin + Recover? Here it is: "Starmie can also drop one of its coverage moves to run Recover and Rapid Spin to give it more reliability as a Rapid Spinner. It also performs nicely as an early pivot into Blissey, as it doesn’t give up momentum and easily shrugs off anything it might use other than Blissey's own Thunderbolt."

I have the bold set mentioned in the ev spreads at the end of the description -- i guess I don't emphasize the offpert point? Do you think it should be?

Suit tar is good to mention, I'll add that in.

Hmmm, I think I mention this with the status pivoting wording in the intro/new wording for star vs dol above? I can add that in the fighters section for def star if that makes sense?

 

[Zokuru]

Yeah if you already mentionned stuff it's my bad, I just missed that.
I didn't mean Bold just some more Def EV's with a Timid nature, but yup Bold is good to talk about and talking about Pert can't be bad.
Yea pivoting on statut is a thing, but completely stopping some Bliss / rachi set from making any progress, abuse them to remove hazards etc is much more than that so I thought it was good to talk about that too !

 

[CryoGyro]

some things:

• spinner, not Spinner or Rapid Spinner
• spinblocking, not Spinblocking
• maximum, not max
• spell out and capitalize stats
• be careful how you use pivot, i'm seeing a lot of it being used where "switch-in" belongs in old gen analyses
• there is NO good reason to spend five sentences and half a large paragraph on defensive's thunder wave
• i get it, adv is complex, but this looks like it'll be exhausting to check; try to condense where you can, state things directly
• come to me/us (link) if you want some more help, a lot of the problems here are subtle but add up

 

[johnnyg2]

some things:

• spinner, not Spinner or Rapid Spinner
• spinblocking, not Spinblocking
• maximum, not max
• spell out and capitalize stats
• be careful how you use pivot, i'm seeing a lot of it being used where "switch-in" belongs in old gen analyses
• there is NO good reason to spend five sentences and half a large paragraph on defensive's thunder wave
• i get it, adv is complex, but this looks like it'll be exhausting to check; try to condense where you can, state things directly
• come to me/us (link) if you want some more help, a lot of the problems here are subtle but add up

Ok, do you think it's better to split it up into 2 different checks? I understand this is pretty exhausting to check, I'll try my best to condense this in the coming weeks and not lose context

 

[xapx]

AMGP

I'll try my best to help. The Overview looks like I just crossed everything out, but I tried to condense where possible and rearrange some points, and it became too messy for my liking, so I just wrote the edited one out and crossed the old one out so it's easier to read. Hopefully I didn't screw any of the original meaning up.

One thing I noticed is that you repeat yourself a lot in the same paragraph, and fluff out something simple into a lot of sentences. I remember reading somewhere that is better to say more with less words.

If I have time I'll make a spoiler for the final version of the heavily edited paragraphs for your convenience and official GPers to give me comments

add/fix remove comments
add comma (AC) remove comma (RC)
add hyphen (AH) remove hyphen (RH)
semicolon (SC) fullstop (FS)

Starfish Pokemon

[OVERVIEW]

Starmie has a formidable presence in the tier not only as a scary late game threats but also as a reliable Rapid Spin user. Starmie is a formidable late-game threat and a reliable Rapid Spin user thanks to its blazing Speed, a powerful Hydro Pump, and useful coverage. Starmie is one the fastest Pokemon in ADV, as The only common threats to that can outspeed it are Jolly Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aerodactyl. Starmie’s power with STAB Hydro Pump, great coverage, and this speed make it one of the more warping presences in the tier—it Starmie's presence forces faster-paced teams to either carry checks that can withstand two hits or faster revenge killers, while slower teams can potentially lose their Spikes to Rapid Spin should they go to a passive special wall are forced on the back foot as Starmie removes their Spikes on a forced switch to a passive special wall. This cements Starmie’s placement on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams as a spinner and late-game(AH) cleaner and potential spinner.

Starmie can also support with run a bulky Rapid Spin set to repeatedly remove Spikes throughout the game,(remove FS, AC) thanks to Recover and Natural Cure. Starmie is the only common spinner with Recover and status removal with Natural Cure. Starmie’s other common competition as a spinner, In contrast, other common spinners like Claydol and Forretress(RC) struggle against status and residual damage and cannot pressure Skarmory, although Starmie still dislikes Toxic. Starmie also beats any Skarmory set that doesn’t carry Toxic. Starmie’s Water / Psychic typing, sufficient bulk with investment, and Natural Cure allow it to check several A bulky Starmie can also check common Pokemon as well(RC) such as offensive Swampert, Metagross, Cloyster, Breloom, Moltres, and Charizard. Additionally, Starmie can pair with other Natural Cure users like Blissey and Celebi to absorb status, pressuring walls like Milotic, Swampert, and Blissey. can often form status pivots with Celebi and Blissey— walls with status moves, such as Toxic Milotic, Swampert, and Blissey will make no progress as due to Starmie and Blissey switching around and removing status.

Starmie is held back by its inability to be both of its main roles well as once. Starmie without bulk investment is one of the worst defensive Pokemon in the tier due to its frailty; it has to get in via predicted double switches, status moves, or sacrifices. Unfortunately, due to Starmie's poor defensive stats, offensive variants cannot switch directly into attacks and is easily revenged killed by Aerodactyl and Jolly Dugtrio. Offensive Starmie must use is also vulnerable to missing Hydro Pump to get favorable damage rolls, making it vulnerable to missing on dangerous targets such as Magneton, Metagross, Tyranitar, and Swampert(remove FS, AC), and Additionally, Starmie struggles to muscle through defensive answers such as Snorlax, Celebi, Jirachi, and especially Blisssey without having sand and Spikes. to wear them down. As a defensive spinner, it instead becomes one of the most passive Pokemon in the tier, as anything that On the other hand, defensive Starmie is quite passive and Pokemon such as Celebi, Snorlax, Suicune, Heracross, SubCM Jirachi, and Taunt Gyarados can shrug off a weak Surf or Thunder Wave will and set up on it.(RC, add FS) such as Celebi, Snorlax, Suicune, Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi, Heracross, and Taunt Gyarados. Its Water / Psychic typing and bulk aren’t amazing either—Starmie is forced to Recover often even with a Bold nature and thus is vulnerable to critical hits and chip damage. Starmie’s overall poor bulk leads it to be vulnerable to this chip damage more than other threats—offensive Starmie is outsped and can be revenge killed by Jolly Dugtrio and Aerodactyl, while bulkier Starmie sets can be Starmie's bulk and defensive typing are poor, forcing even bulky variants to use Recover often, and it is easily put into range of Pursuit Tyranitar’s Crunch and Cloyster’s Explosion quite easily through chip damage like sand and Spikes. Starmie's competition as a spinner in Claydol and Forretress have much higher defensive stats and utility; both are immune to sand and Claydol is immune to Spikes thanks to Levitate. stats and more desirably resistances, including an immunity to sand and Levitate for Claydol, leading them to be more resilient against this chip damage. Starmie is also is vulnerable to mind games against teams with Gengar and Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Gengar, as not being able to Rapid Spin while poisoned can lead to it being it is easily worn down by Toxic and defeated very easily while trying to Rapid Spin.

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin / Psychic / Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Offensive Starmie is a late-game(AH) sweeper adept at taking down weakened teams. It is one of the more difficult Pokemon to cover for faster paced teams, as its combined usable Special Attack stat with fantastic Speed and coverage force the usage of more specially bulky answers like Snorlax and Blissey rather than relying on resistances to specific attacks. (Is this really necessary when the Overview already covers this?)

Hydro Pump is a must on this Starmie set despite its unreliability, as it gets damage rolls such as a can potentially OHKO on Claydol or a Tyranitar that doesn’t invest heavily in bulk, has a chance to 2HKO Forretress, and guarantees a 2HKO on Gengar. a chance to OHKO Claydol, a 2HKO on Gengar, and a chance to 2HKO Forretress. With Spikes down, Starmie becomes even harder to check, threatening a 2HKO on Metagross, 3HKO on Snorlax, and making the previous rolls such as the OHKO on Tyranitar a certainty. It also helps to wear down defensive Jirachi. Its other coverage allows it to handle Water resists and switch-ins—Ice Beam hits Salamence, Zapdos, and Venusaur hard while forcing Celebi to repeatedly use Recover, whereas Thunderbolt nails Skarmory and Water-types like Milotic, Suicune, Gyarados, Vaporeon, other and opposing Starmie. as well as provides a strong hit on Skarmory. After these moves, Starmie’s options open up somewhat.(Start new paragraph)
Starmie has multiple options for its last move. Rapid Spin may seem out of place on such an offensive Pokemon, but it allows Starmie to act as an emergency removal for remove Spikes on a forced switch,(AC,remove FS) Rapid Spin on this Starmie is also being quite effective in faster paced games such as those against Jolteon Spikes teams, as the pace dictates that Starmie only needs to get one Rapid Spin off. Only rely on It is not recommended to heavily rely on offensive Starmie’s Rapid Spin sparingly, as it Starmie lacks both bulk and recovery to reliably Rapid Spin throughout the game. Additionally, it can’t afford to be spinblocked, as Gengar will survive a Hydro Pump and potentially KO back with Thunderbolt. Psychic is a nice option for Gengar and Venusaur as well as Fighting-types such as Heracross, Hariyama, and Breloom. Running Psychic allows Starmie to KO specially bulky Gengar trying to spinblock Starmie after some prior damage, or switch into offensive Gengar's Ice Punch, Taunt, or Will-O-Wisp and OHKO it. almost OHKOs specially bulky Gengar trying to block Rapid Spin—with Psychic, Starmie more easily pivots into Gengar's Ice Punch, Taunt, or Will-O-Wisp due to outspeeding it. It also lets Starmie threatens an OHKO on Breloom and a chipped bulkless Heracross without bulk investment and Breloom and a 2HKO on bulky Heracross and Hariyama. Finally, Recover negates chip damage if the team already has a spinner or does not value the coverage Psychic provides. It allows Starmie to perform some of its defensive roles, such as being a absorb status pivot with Natural Cure,(AC) and covering Moltres, mixed Salamence, and Charizard by pivoting on their attacks switching into resisted hits, forcing them out, and then recovering off the damage. Starmie can also drop one of its coverage moves to run both Recover and Rapid Spin to give it more reliability as a spinner. It also pivots into Blissey early-game as it doesn't give up momentum and shrugs off Blissey's attacks barring Thunderbolt. Offensive Starmie almost always runs Timid with maximum Speed and Special Attack EVs(RC) as the ability to outpace everything up to Salac-boosted(AH) Swampert and hit them hard make up the core of its niche a special cleaner. Starmie can also run a Modest nature—it notably has a chance to nearly OHKO and 2HKO maximum HP Tyranitar and a significantly higher chance to 2HKO Skarmory respectively. This is often done if using Starmie without Spikes or alongside support for removing Gengar.

Starmie should be brought in only in opportune moments such as predicted switches, when a Pokemon faints, or weak resisted moves on from something it threatens out, like Moltres,(AC) and Gengar’s Will-O-Wisp,(AC) or Claydol's Psychic. Beware of trying to use it to counter Skarmory and Forretress early-game(AH), especially if Skarmory has Toxic and Protect or Forretress has Hidden Power Bug— (add space)this often leads to a situation where one layer of Spikes is still up and Starmie is too low on HP to perform properly.(do you mean Starmie cannot switch in because it will die to Spikes?)

Team Options
========
Starmie needs some specific support before it can to cleave through teams. First and foremost, Starmie often wants Tyranitar's sand to helps make residual damage stick for easier sweeping, and Starmie can threaten out Rock- and Ground-types with Hydro Pump and 2HKO most Steel-types bar defensive Jirachi and Registeel, which are all immune to sand. Sand is especially nice for Starmie, as its Hydro Pump does a lot of damage to the Rock and Ground-types immune to it, while also 2HKOing almost all Steel-types besides defensive Jirachi and Registeel. Tyranitar is helpful elsewhere—as is also a physical attacker, it is a fantastic switch in to Blissey, Snorlax, and defensive Jirachi without Hidden Power Fighting or Toxic. It can also use Focus Punch to weaken Pokemon that switch in to check Tyranitar, as these Starmie checks switch out to weaken Pokemon that can live a Hydro Pump like Swampert or Metagross, weakening them for Starmie's Hydro Pump. Other strong attackers can fill this niche as well, such as Metagross, Focus Punch Swampert, and Snorlax.

Another way to use this Starmie is to control the Spikes game: keep up more Spikes than the opponent. Good Spikes users include Skarmory and Forretress,(AC) although Cloyster and Smeargle are niche options for faster paced teams. are great options to set up Spikes for Starmie. However, even the more offensive Cloyster and Smeargle can work on faster pace teams, however these are niche. Skarmory is the most common choice(RC) thanks to its defensive utility. as it helps the team’s defensive core the best of the Spikes users. Gengar is also nice on these teams, as it is the best spinblocker in the tier and can help remove special walls with Explosion or can use Taunt + Will-O-Wisp to prevent them from healing. Another option to keep the Spikes advantage is to use Claydol alongside Starmie, as like Forretress,(does Forretress work on these teams? because you've never mentioned this before, so "as like Forretress" doesn't really work here) it frees up Starmie to run Psychic or Recover,(AC) and provides a Rock-type resist,(AC) and additional threatens special walls with Explosion for special walls. Due to Starmie’s defensive liabilities, it commonly prefers defensive teammates on Spikes teams, as such as(RC) strong special answers like Blissey and Jirachi and good physical walls such as Swampert, defensive Metagross, and Flygon. These options often make up the core of common Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams alongside Tyranitar, Gengar, and Skarmory.

To further support Starmie, Explosion users that lure in Blissey like Gengar, Weezing, and Regice can also lure in Blissey and often weaken it enough so that a Dugtrio or residual damage can finish it off. Even without Explosion, Dugtrio is a fantastic partner— (add space)with a good Blissey lure like Baton Pass Zapdos, Beat Up Dugtrio can easily remove it, alongside defensive Jirachi(RC) and Celebi. Additionally, other staples of special offense such as Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, offensive Swampert, mixed Metagross, Calm Mind Jirachi, Calm Mind Suicune, and Dragon Dance + Hidden Power Grass + Dragon Dance Tyranitar (changed because everything else goes as setup+move, keep as is if that's the actual term used) can be effective partners as they weaken special checks for a Starmie sweep. Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi is particularly synergetic, as it can pass Calm Mind to Starmie to more easily muscle past its checks.

Strong Fighting-types like Hariyama, Heracross, Breloom, Machamp, and Medicham are especially good alongside Starmie, as they help punch through bulky Normal-types like Blissey and Snorlax that Starmie struggles with.(Blissey and lax being good starm checks is already repeated multiple times so I removed this) These They work especially well alongside Recover + Rapid Spin Starmie, as they can repeatedly fire off strong a Focus Punch into Toxic + Protect Skarmory, while Starmie beats Drill Peck versions. Starmie is also a nice check to Salamence, a common answer for these Pokemon.

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Recover
move 3: Surf
move 4: Thunder Wave / Psychic / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Defensive Starmie is one of the three consistent spinners in the tier alongside Forretress and Claydol while also acting as check to many dangerous threats with its speed, Recover, and Water / Psychic (RH)typing.

With maximum HP investment and Recover, Starmie is bulky enough to repeatedly remove Spikes with Rapid Spin. The 40 SpA EVs guarantees a 2HKO on maximum HP Tyranitar with Surf while 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature 216 allows Starmie to outspeeds up to Gengar, only falling short of opposing Starmie, Salac-boosted(AH) Swampert, and Raikou. Surf 2HKOs Tyranitar while also being Starmie’s best option against Skarmory, Forretress, and all of the threats it checks, like Moltres, Swampert, and Metagross.(completely fluff imo, only important benchmark that I see here has already been listed with EVs) In the last slot, Starmie has several options. The most prominent of these is Thunder Wave— (add space)Thunder Wave paralyzes dangerous set up threats not bothered by a weak Surf, like Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragon Dance Gyarados without Taunt, and Calm Mind Jirachi. Thunder Wave is also a nice general tool, as Ground-types immune to it do not enjoy Surf, allowing it to better check Metagross, Aerodactyl, and mixed Salamence.(none of these are even Ground-types) Thunder Wave helps Starmie in the Spikes game by paralyzing Skarmory and Gengar, making them less likely to try and beat Starmie with Toxic + Protect and switching in to spinblock it, respectively. Gengar especially becomes almost useless offensively once paralyzed. Thunder Wave also makes Starmie an emergency check to faster Pokemon, like Zapdos and Gengar—this is especially important as many defensive Starmie teams rely on it as their best speed control and paralyzing down these threats even if Starmie faints to Thunderbolt can allow slower teammates to defeat them. It also cripples bulky Pokemon like Toxic + Protect Skarmory and slows down fast Pokemon like Zapdos and Gengar, making them less effective at their roles and allowing Starmie's slower teammates to deal with them. For other options, Psychic is fantastic against Gengar trying to block Rapid Spin while also checking spinblock and Fighting-types. Thunderbolt assists Starmie against Gyarados, Cloyster, and Skarmory. On the other hand, Ice Beam allows Starmie to be a strong Salamence, Flygon, and Breloom answer while being less passive against Zapdos and defensive Celebi. The best coverage choice of these options generally depends on what the team's major weakness is weakest to most, whereas Thunder Wave is the best for general purposes.

I heavily rearranged the next paragraph so it isn't just a ton of lists, which I think is better than just flat out stating Claydol does this, and Starmie does this
This Defensive Starmie generally competes for a slot on a team with Claydol, as Forretress typically requires Pursuit support to Rapid Spin against Gengar teams. In comparison to Claydol, Starmie lacks immunity to is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, a Rock-resistance, and access to cannot directly remove threats such as Celebi, Suicune, and Salamence with Explosion or a tool to beat reliably spin against Toxic Skarmory in with Refresh. On the other hand, Starmie beats all non-Toxic variants of Skarmory, is much faster, gets access to Thunder Wave has good speed control,(AC) and stronger coverage, and can heal status and health with Natural Cure,(AC) and Recover, while being able to beat non-Toxic Skarmory. respectively. As a comparison, Claydol can go on the offensive with Explosion to remove a key threat such as Celebi, Suicune, or Salamence whereas Starmie is forced to go on the defensive, possibly even to PP stall with its massive amount of PP. However, Starmie struggles heavily with both Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Hidden Power Bug Forretress, so it often better for it to remove Spikes after they are lain. Also, if Starmie switches in to remove Spikes constantly, Since Starmie is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, it is very vulnerable to Pursuit Tyranitar. Starmie also isn’t especially bulky either,—it can often being forced into Recover loops on the various threats it checks with some chip damage, making it harder to spin Spikes should it be too cavalier with its health early-game(AH).

Starmie can run 32 Special Defense EVs to avoid the OHKO after sand damage from Pursuit Tyranitar. Additionally, Starmie can put the extra special attack into speed forgo the extra Special Attack EVs for maximum Speed investment to outrun revenge kill Salac Berry boosted Endeavor Swampert—this allows Starmie to outspeed and easily removing it rather than be forced to instead of spamming Recover as it Swampert uses Endeavor. Starmie can also run considerably less speed depending on the team's needs, such as 176 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Dugtrio, 136 Speed EVs for base positive base 100s like Salamence and Charizard, or 56 Speed EVs for positive base 90s such as Moltres, or even a Bold nature&mdash with heavy Defense investment to better check physical Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl.(remove SC, AC) Starmie should run a the minimum amount of speed seen is 16 Speed EVs(RC) enough to outspeed Pokemon with neutral maximum base 85 Speed and a neutral nature like Heracross and Suicune. The amount of speed to run is heavily dependent on the team; a Bold nature and heavy defense investment allows Starmie to act as a better check to physical Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl, whereas greater speed allow Starmie to check Gengar, Charizard, Salamence, and Moltres better. Another tradeoff of speed is in how Starmie is played different with different Speed investment; slower Starmie sets often are played similarly(remove space) to Milotic as a bulky wall that can Rapid Spin, whereas faster Starmie sets are better against Spikes teams due to outspeeding Gengar.

Team Options
========
Defensive Starmie typically fits on balanced teams that need Spikes removal while being able to afford its passivity. Due to Starmie’s ability to defeat most Spikes users other than Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Hidden Power Bug Forretress, Starmie teams typically do not feature Magneton. Instead, Starmie teams typically beat Skarmory down with threats such mixed Tyranitar and Salamence with Fire Blastinstead of using Magneton. However, to afford Starmie’s passivity, it commonly needs to be paired with strong physical and special switch-ins. These are commonly Physically defensive Metagross with Protect on the physical side can handle Snorlax and most Jirachi, while generally tanking boosted threats such as Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and Dragon Dance Gyarados, whereas Blissey or specially defensive Celebi handle the special side deals with Suicune, while also forming status pivots with Starmie for stalling out Milotic and defensive Jirachi. Physically defensive Metagross can handle Snorlax and most Jirachi, while generally tanking boosted threats such as Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and Dragon Dance Gyarados. Blissey and Celebi handle Suicune, while also forming status pivots with Starmie for stalling out Milotic and defensive Jirachi. Pursuit Tyranitar can help remove Gengar once Starmie has paralyzed it so it can Rapid Spin with impunity. One of the more prominent threats this archetype Balanced teams struggles with is Heracross(RC) and as such, commonly carries Salamence or Gengar to switch into Megahorn. Starmie also fits well alongside Fighting-types like Medicham and especially well with those with Guts such as Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp,(remove FS, AC) as they can This gives the team the ability to beat Toxic + Protect Skarmory(RC) and as they can repeatedly fire off potentially boosted Focus Punch for free since this Skarmory variant will typically lack Drill Peck.

Starmie can also fit on pair with general Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes teammates such as Tyranitar, Swampert, Gengar, Blissey, and Skarmory; however, care should be taken make sure that the team isn’t too passive due to lacking a strong cleaner. These types of teams sometimes run Dugtrio as a way to checkmate opponents foes weakened by Spikes in the longer games(remove FS) and Dugtrio also removes some prominent Starmie answers—Dugtrio traps such as Calm Mind Celebi, Pursuit Tyranitar, and even a paralyzed Blissey and Jirachi to remove them as well. A Starmie and Dugtrio pairing is also nice for against opposing Fighting-type Pokemon, as Starmie handles most of them besides Heracross, which Dugtrio traps. Starmie also checks prominent Ground immune threats trying to take advantage of Dugtrio, such as Salamence, Gyarados, Charizard, and Moltres. Dugtrio can also trap Heracross, the one Fighting-type Starmie struggles against, and Starmie deals with Pokemon immune to Ground for Dugtrio such as Salamence, Gyarados, Charizard, and Moltres.(I think you also include Claydol here since the listed are all Flying-types, so I kept "immune to Ground")

As a niche option, defensive Starmie also fits well on a more niche archetype— can work on teams that focus on paralyzing the opponent, such as with Porygon2, defensive Jirachi, Thunder Wave Zapdos, and Snorlax. These types of teams commonly struggle with Spikes and benefit from the unique array of Pokemon Starmie can check, such as Moltres, Charizard, Swampert, and Metagross. However, Starmie should not be the only checks to these Pokemon on these teams, as it can be easily overwhelmed. However, this allows them to use more offensive lures to Skarmory, such as Choice Band Metagross and the aforementioned Guts Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp. In addition, slow and powerful Pokemon that generally take advantage of Paralysis(RC)(isn't this literally the point of this paragraph?) such as Marowak, Substitute Tyranitar, Curse Swampert, and Rhydon fit well here. Marowak is especially nice here, as it can provide a pseudo Rock-type resistance while heavily threatening most of the metagame with paralysis support.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options (better to sort by move rather than grouping them together and breaking them into multiple sentence imo)
=============
On the offensive set, one of these other options in the last slot is Offensive Starmie has other niche options for its last moveslot. Hidden Power Grass(remove FS) It guarantees the a 2HKO on Swampert without having to use Hydro Pump while also giving Starmie a good option to hitting the rare Lanturn. Additionally, Starmie can also run Surf in the last slot can be run alongside Hydro Pump to accurately hit Pokemon that will KO it if Hydro Pump misses,(AC) such as a weakened Metagross, Magneton, or Aerodactyl. and even Thunder over Thunderbolt can be used to hit Skarmory much harder and 2HKO Milotic in sand, which will otherwise stall out Starmie with Toxic and Recover. Surf gives an accurate options on a threat that can KO Starmie back if it misses Hydro Pump, such as a low HP Metagross, Magneton, or Aerodactyl. Thunder seems gimmicky, but it gives a guaranteed 2HKO in sand on Milotic, which can otherwise attempt to stall it out with Toxic and Recover. It also generally hits Electric-weak threats like Skarmory much harder than Thunderbolt when it hits. On the defensive set, the most prominent alternative option is to use Toxic. Toxic forces poison on the many threats it checks, sometimes more valuable than Thunder Wave. It notably allow Toxic can occasionally be more valuable than Thunder Wave for defensive Starmie to beat Swampert more easily while eventually forcing Blissey out. However, Skarmory, Gengar, and Forretress are all immune to it, weakening it making it worse as a spinner. Starmie also has access to both Reflect and Light Screen, which can assist teammates while also helping itself survive Explosion and or Pursuit from Tyranitar. for Reflect and Light Screen, respectively Starmie can only fit one screen, while both of these options as running dual screens make Starmie considerably more passive than it already is(RC) however. (I think players looking to get into ADV would already know what each screens does)

Checks and Counters (remember to add colons)
===================
**Special Walls**: Even offensive Starmie will make little progress against special walls like Blissey, Snorlax, defensive Jirachi, specially defensive Celebi, as well as and even Regice(RC) and Registeel. Blissey is the best Starmie counters in the game, as Blissey takes little damage from anything Starmie can do and easily generate free turns.(I don't think free turn is right here) Snorlax and Regice are less bulky but can take multiple hits and can reply respond with powerful attacks. Jirachi and Celebi fulfill this niche as well, but can heal and hit hard 2HKO back 2HKO Starmie with Electric-type coverage and Hidden Power Grass respectively. However, Celebi needs to careful, as it needs to repeatedly use Recover against Ice Beam(remove SC) it is quite vulnerable to critical hits and freezes.(everything is vulnerable to crits and freezes?) Registeel takes little damage from anything Starmie can do. Additonally, they all While these Pokemon wall the defensive set easily, they allow Starmie to spin for free, but give up a facile Rapid Spin, while some(RC) such as Blissey and Registeel(RC) are quite passive and invite in dangerous physical Pokemon like Tyranitar, Metagross, opposing Snorlax, and the Fighting-type Pokemon. (having no comma before such as makes the sentence flow better)

**Bulky Electric-types**: Jolteon, Zapdos, Lanturn, and Raikou all potentially can tank a hit from offensive Starmie and easily remove both variants with Thunderbolt. Jolteon outspeeds all Starmie variants, whereas Raikou can Speed tie with Starmie. Both are bulky enough to take one hits with three layers of Spikes down, while Raikou can sometimes take 2 Hydro Pump hits if Spikes aren’t down. Lanturn easily takes on Starmie's coverage while retaliating with its own Thunderbolt. Zapdos is the only prominent Starmie check immune to Spikes, but can’t outspeed offensive Starmie;(RC, add SC) but bulky sets can take 2 Ice Beams twice, while offensive sets can take any attack once and remove it Starmie. Zapdos is also notably the only prominent Starmie check immune to Spikes. (better to not pluralize move names unless there is no other choice)

**Revenge Killing Killers**: Offensive Starmie’s damage output often makes switching in quite hard, but upon KOing sacrificing a Pokemon, switching in a full health a healthy or faster check can switch in and often can remove it Starmie. Jolly Dugtrio and Aerodactyl only need a small amount of chip damage to remove bulkless Starmie without bulk investment, whereas even Swampert and Metagross can survive a Hydro Pump at reasonable health and hit hard in return back. In desperate situations, maximum HP Tyranitar can survive Timid offensive Starmie’s Hydro Pump at full health and hit hard with Hidden Power Bug or OHKO back with Crunch.

**Ghost-types**: Gengar prevents Rapid Spin Starmie from doing its primary job by blocking Rapid Spin due to its Ghost-typing. Ghost-types like Gengar and Dusclops can spinblock Starmie. Gengar can also hit Starmie hard with Thunderbolt, even OHKOing bulkless offensive Starmie with if Gengar has significant Special Attack investment. However, both Starmie sets can greatly threaten Gengar; if Gengar switches in on anything but Rapid Spin, it will be KOed by the ensuing Hydro Pump or Psychic from offensive Starmie, whereas the defensive set can cripple it with Thunder Wave or also hit it with Psychic. Dusclops is rare but is both much bulkier than Gengar,(AC) and not weak to Psychic,(AC) as well as can and is able to retaliate with a strong STAB Shadow Ball.

**Setup Sweepers Threats**: Setup Pokemon that can shrug off status and Surf can use defensive Starmie as setup fodder. is quite vulnerable to being set-up on by threats that can shrug off both status and a weak Surf, like(it is better to use active voice over passive) Examples include Calm Mind + Rest Suicune, Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, Curse Snorlax, Taunt or Rest + Dragon Dance Gyarados if Starmie lacks Thunderbolt, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi. These Pokemon, especially Calm Mind Jirachi, Curse Snorlax, and Calm Mind + RestTalk Suicune often heavily threaten the rest of the team teams that Starmie finds itself on.

**Water-type Resistances and Immunities checks**: Defensive Starmie can do little damage to bulky Water-type resists such as Milotic and Celebi, whereas it can do no damage at all to is completely walled by Vaporeon. Against offensive Starmie, these threats checks can at least bait out a weaker coverage move like Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to switch something else into a teammate that can’t take 2 Hydro Pump hits twice.

**Dark-types**: Tyranitar and Umbreon can work as check defensive Starmie checks due to its Dark-type weakness to Dark. Pursuit Tyranitar is commonly found on teams with Forretress lacking Hidden Power Bug as it can KO even defensive Starmie after some chip, but Tyranitar is 2HKOed by Surf from defensive Starmie and takes heavy damage from offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump.(FS) but it is one of the common ways to remove Starmie on Forretress teams that lack Hidden Power Bug due to Crunch OHKOing offensive Starmie and KOing defensive Starmie after some chip damage.(should mention what ttar can do before saying what it struggles with) Umbreon is one of the better counters in the tier to Starmie due to its ability to Pursuit trap any Starmie more comfortably due to its special bulk and potentially having Toxic as well. However, care should be taken for Umbreon, as its Pursuit on the switch will not eliminate any Starmie set and it can be Umbreon can more reliably Pursuit trap Starmie thanks to its high special bulk and access to Toxic, but it cannot KO a healthy Starmie with Pursuit. It is also taken advantage of by much of the meta game.

**Heracross**: Heracross can hit Starmie hard with its STAB Bug-type attacks. It is especially threatening, as its Megahorn easily OHKOs all forms of Starmie sets and only needs a small amount of bulk to survive even offensive Starmie’s Psychic. Heracross can also set (RH)up Substitute + and Swords Dance on defensive Starmie, while Guts Heracross enjoys does not mind taking a Thunder Wave to become even more powerful.(I don't think it necessarily enjoys it because it gets slowed down)

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[johnnyg2,57904]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno,5454], [Mikmer, 511989]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]

Overview

Starmie is a formidable late-game threat and a reliable Rapid Spin user thanks to its blazing Speed, a powerful Hydro Pump, and useful coverage. The only common threats that can outspeed it are Jolly Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aerodactyl. Starmie's presence forces faster-paced teams to either carry checks that can withstand two hits or faster revenge killers, while slower teams are forced on the back foot as Starmie removes their Spikes on a forced switch to a passive special wall. This cements Starmie’s placement on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams as a spinner and late-game cleaner.

Starmie can also run a bulky Rapid Spin set to repeatedly remove Spikes throughout the game, thanks to Recover and Natural Cure. In contrast, other common spinners like Claydol and Forretress struggle against status and residual damage and cannot pressure Skarmory, although Starmie still dislikes Toxic. A bulky Starmie can also check common Pokemon such as offensive Swampert, Metagross, Cloyster, Breloom, Moltres, and Charizard. Additionally, Starmie can pair with other Natural Cure users like Blissey and Celebi to absorb status, pressuring walls like Milotic, Swampert, and Blissey.

Unfortunately, due to Starmie's poor defensive stats, offensive variants cannot switch directly into attacks and is easily revenged killed by Aerodactyl and Jolly Dugtrio. Offensive Starmie is also vulnerable to missing Hydro Pump on dangerous targets such as Magneton, Metagross, Tyranitar, and Swampert, and struggles to muscle through defensive answers such as Snorlax, Celebi, Jirachi, and Blisssey without sand and Spikes. On the other hand, defensive Starmie is quite passive and Pokemon such as Celebi, Snorlax, Suicune, Heracross, SubCM Jirachi, and Taunt Gyarados can shrug off a weak Surf or Thunder Wave and set up on it. Starmie's bulk and defensive typing are poor, forcing even bulky variants to use Recover often, and it is easily put into range of Pursuit Tyranitar’s Crunch and Cloyster’s Explosion through chip damage like sand and Spikes. Starmie's competition as a spinner in Claydol and Forretress have much higher defensive stats and utility; both are immune to sand and Claydol is immune to Spikes thanks to Levitate. Starmie is also vulnerable to mind games against teams with Gengar and Toxic + Protect Skarmory, as it is easily worn down by Toxic and defeated while trying to spin.

E: added Overview
E2: changed colors for easier viewing for both light/dark themes, thanks vapicuno
E3: changed a couple things I missed on 1st check

 

[johnnyg2]

Thanks xapx! I'm going through this, I'll finish it up in the coming days. I largely like what you did in the overview -- I do flesh out prob too much, but I feel I don't just add language for sake of adding language. I'll add another post when I am finished if I have any questions, thank you again for going through it

 

[johnnyg2]

some things:

• spinner, not Spinner or Rapid Spinner
• spinblocking, not Spinblocking
• maximum, not max
• spell out and capitalize stats
• be careful how you use pivot, i'm seeing a lot of it being used where "switch-in" belongs in old gen analyses
• there is NO good reason to spend five sentences and half a large paragraph on defensive's thunder wave
• i get it, adv is complex, but this looks like it'll be exhausting to check; try to condense where you can, state things directly
• come to me/us (link) if you want some more help, a lot of the problems here are subtle but add up

I just finished implementing xapx great amgp check that helped a lot of these issues. Could you look at it again when you get a chance? Thanks!

 

[CryoGyro]

GP 1/2

Hide

[OVERVIEW]

Starmie is a formidable late-game threat and a reliable Rapid Spin user thanks to its blazing Speed, a powerful Hydro Pump, and useful coverage. The only common threats that can outspeed it are Jolly Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aerodactyl. Starmie's presence forces faster-paced teams to either carry revenge killers or checks that can withstand two hits or faster revenge killers, while slower teams are forced on the back foot as Starmie removes their Spikes on a forced switch to a passive special wall. This cements Starmie’s placement on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams as a spinner and late-game cleaner.

Thanks to Recover and Natural Cure, Starmie can also run a bulky Rapid Spin set to repeatedly remove Spikes throughout the game, thanks to Recover and Natural Cure. In contrast, Starmie's other common competition main competitors as a spinner, Claydol and Forretress, struggle against status, (comma) residual damage, and and residual damage while struggling to pressure Skarmory, although Starmie still dislikes Toxic. A bulky Starmie can also check common Pokemon such as offensive Swampert, Metagross, Cloyster, Breloom, Moltres, and Charizard. Additionally, Starmie can pair with other Natural Cure users like Blissey and Celebi to absorb status, pressuring status-reliant walls like Milotic, Swampert, and Blissey that rely on status to do damage.

Starmie is held back by its inability to be both of its main roles well as once play offense and defense simultaneously. Unfortunately, due to Starmie's poor defensive stats, Offensive variants cannot switch directly into attacks, (comma) are and is easily revenged killed by Aerodactyl and Jolly Dugtrio., (comma) must land the imperfectly accurate Hydro Pump against dangerous foes Offensive Starmie is also vulnerable to missing Hydro Pump on dangerous targets such as Magneton, Metagross, Tyranitar, and Swampert, and struggle to muscle through defensive answers such as Snorlax, Celebi, Jirachi, and especially Blisssey without sand and Spikes. On the other hand, defensive Starmie is quite passive and setup fodder for Pokemon such as Celebi, Snorlax, Suicune, Heracross, Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi, and Taunt + Dragon Dance Gyarados can shrug off a weak Surf or Thunder Wave and set up on it. Starmie's bulk and defensive typing are poor, forcing even bulky variants to use Recover often, and it is easily put into KO range of Pursuit Tyranitar’s Crunch and Cloyster’s Explosion through chip damage like sand and Spikes. Starmie's competition as a spinner in Claydol and Forretress have much higher defensive stats bulk and utility; both are immune to sand and Claydol is immune to Spikes thanks to Levitate. Starmie is also vulnerable to mind games against teams with Gengar and Toxic + Protect Skarmory, as it is easily worn down by Toxic and defeated while trying to spin which can spinblock while Toxic wears it down.

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin / Psychic / Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Hydro Pump is a must despite its unreliability, as it can potentially OHKO Claydol, (comma) can OHKO Tyranitar that don't or a Tyranitar that doesn’t invest heavily in bulk, has a chance to 2HKO Forretress, and guarantees a 2HKO on always 2HKOes Gengar. With Spikes down, Starmie becomes even harder to check, wearing down defensive Jirachi and threatening a 2HKO on Metagross, 3HKO on Snorlax, and making the previous rolls such as the guaranteed OHKO on Tyranitar a certainty. It also helps to wear down defensive Jirachi. Ice Beam hits Salamence, Zapdos, and Venusaur hard while forcing Celebi to repeatedly use Recover, whereas Thunderbolt nails Skarmory and Water-types like Milotic, Suicune, Gyarados, Vaporeon, and opposing Starmie.

Starmie has multiple options for its last move. Rapid Spin may seem out of place on such an offensive Pokemon, but it allows Starmie to act as an works as emergency removal for Spikes on a forced switch. It is also quite effective in faster paced games such as those against Jolteon Spikes, (comma) as teams, as the pace dictates that Starmie only needs to get one Rapid Spin off spin once. It is not recommended to rely heavily on offensive Starmie’s Rapid Spin, as Starmie lacks both bulk and recovery to reliably Rapid Spin throughout the game. Since this Starmie is offensive, do not expect it to spin multiple times. Additionally, it can’t afford to be spinblocked, as Gengar will survive a take Hydro Pump and potentially KO back with Thunderbolt. Psychic is a nice option for Gengar and Venusaur as well as Fighting-types such as Heracross, Hariyama, and Breloom. Running Psychic allows Starmie to KO specially bulky Gengar trying to spinblock Starmie after some prior damage, as it outspeeds and easily pivots into Gengar's Ice Punch, Taunt, or Will-O-Wisp. Specifically, it can KO specially bulky Gengar with some prior damage and gives Starmie reason to switch into Gengar's Ice Punch, Taunt, or Will-O-Wisp. It also lets Starmie threaten an OHKO on Breloom and chipped Heracross without bulk investment and a 2HKO on bulky Heracross and Hariyama. Finally, Recover negates chip damage if the team already has a spinner or does not value the coverage Psychic provides Psychic's coverage. It allows Starmie to absorb status with Natural Cure and cover repeatedly force out Moltres, mixed Salamence, and Charizard by switching into resisted hits, forcing them out, and then recovering off the damage. Starmie can also drop one of its coverage moves to run both Recover and Rapid Spin to give it more reliability as a spinner. It also pivots switches into Blissey early-game, (comma) as it doesn't give up momentum and shrugs off Blissey's attacks barring Thunderbolt. Offensive Starmie almost always runs Timid with maximum Speed and Special Attack EVs up have maximum Speed to outpace everything up to Salac Berry-boosted Swampert and hit them hard. Starmie can also run a Modest nature to OHKO and a greater chance to 2HKO maximum HP Tyranitar and Skarmory respectively maximum HP Tyranitar and more likely 2HKO Skarmory. This is often done if using Starmie without Spikes or alongside support for removing Gengar.

Starmie should be brought in only in at opportune moments such as predicted switches, when a Pokemon faints, or resisted moves from something it threatens out, like Moltres, Gengar, and or Claydol. Beware of trying to use it to counter check Skarmory and Forretress early-game, especially if Skarmory has Toxic and Protect or Forretress has Hidden Power Bug; this often leads to a situation where one layer of Spikes is still up and Starmie is too low on HP to perform properly.

Team Options
========
Starmie needs specific support to cleave through teams. First and foremost, Tyranitar's sand helps make residual damage stick for easier sweeping, and Starmie can threaten out sand-immune Rock- and Ground-types with Hydro Pump and 2HKO most Steel-types bar defensive Jirachi and Registeel, which are all immune to sand. Tyranitar is also a fantastic switch-in to Blissey, Snorlax, and defensive Jirachi without Hidden Power Fighting or Toxic. It can also use Focus Punch like Swampert or on Swampert and Metagross, weakening them for Starmie's Hydro Pump. Other strong attackers can fill this niche as well, such as Metagross, Focus Punch Swampert, and Snorlax.

Another way to use Starmie is to control the Spikes game: keep up more Spikes than the opponent. Good Spikes users include Skarmory and Forretress, although Cloyster and Smeargle are niche options for faster paced teams. Skarmory is the most common choice thanks to its defensive utility. Gengar is also nice on these teams, as it is the best spinblocker in the tier and can help remove special walls with Explosion or use Taunt + Will-O-Wisp to prevent them from healing. Another option to keep the Spikes advantage is to use Claydol alongside Starmie, it frees up Starmie which frees Starmie up to run Psychic or Recover, provides a Rock-type resist resistance, and threatens special walls with Explosion. Due to Starmie’s defensive liabilities, it commonly prefers defensive teammates on Spikes teams, such as strong special answers walls like Blissey and Jirachi and good physical walls such as Swampert, defensive Metagross, and Flygon. These options often make up the core of common Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams alongside Tyranitar, Gengar, and Skarmory.

To further support Starmie, Explosion users like Gengar, Weezing, and Regice can also lure in Blissey and often weaken it enough so that Dugtrio or residual damage can finish it off. Even without Explosion, Dugtrio is a fantastic partner with a good Blissey lure like Baton Pass Zapdos,; (semi) Beat Up Dugtrio can easily remove it, alongside defensive Jirachi, (comma) and Celebi. Additionally, other staples of special offense such as Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, offensive Swampert, mixed Metagross, Calm Mind Jirachi, Calm Mind Suicune, and Dragon Dance + Hidden Power Grass Tyranitar can be effective partners as they weaken special checks for a Starmie sweep. Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi is particularly synergetic, as it can pass Calm Mind to Starmie to more easily muscle past its checks.

Strong Fighting-types like Hariyama, Heracross, Breloom, Machamp, and Medicham are especially good alongside Starmie, as they help punch through bulky Normal-types like Blissey and Snorlax. They work especially well alongside Recover + Rapid Spin Starmie, as they can repeatedly fire off strong a Focus Punch into Toxic + Protect Skarmory, while Starmie beats Drill Peck versions. Starmie is also a nice check to Salamence, a common Fighting answer for these Pokemon.

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Recover
move 3: Surf
move 4: Thunder Wave / Psychic / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Defensive Starmie is one of the three consistent spinners in the tier alongside Forretress and Claydol while also acting as check to OU's three consistent spinners and checks many dangerous threats with its Speed, Recover, and Water / Psychic typing.

With maximum HP investment and Recover, Starmie is bulky enough to repeatedly remove Spikes with Rapid Spin. 40 Special Attack EVs guarantees a 2HKO on maximum HP Tyranitar with Surf, (comma) while 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature allows Starmie to outspeed beat Gengar, only falling short of opposing Starmie, Salac Berry-boosted Swampert, and Raikou. In the last moveslot, Starmie has several options. The most prominent of these is Thunder Wave; Thunder Wave paralyzes dangerous setup threats not bothered by a Starmie's weak Surf, like Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragon Dance Gyarados without Taunt, and Calm Mind Jirachi. It also cripples bulky Pokemon like Toxic + Protect Skarmory and slows down fast Speed-reliant Pokemon like Zapdos and Gengar, making them less effective at their roles and allowing Starmie's slower teammates to deal with them. For other options, Psychic is fantastic against Gengar trying to spinblock and Fighting-types. Thunderbolt assists Starmie against Gyarados, Cloyster, and Skarmory. On the other hand, Ice Beam allows Starmie to be a strong Salamence, Flygon, and Breloom answer while being less passive against Zapdos and defensive Celebi. The best coverage choice generally depends on the team's major weaknesses, whereas Thunder Wave is the best for general purposes.

Defensive Starmie generally competes for a slot on a team with Claydol, as Forretress typically requires Pursuit support to Rapid Spin against Gengar teams handle Gengar. In comparison to Claydol, Starmie is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, lacks a Rock resistance, cannot directly remove threats such as Celebi, Suicune, and Salamence with Explosion, (comma) and struggles or reliable spin against Toxic Skarmory with Refresh. On the other hand, Starmie has good Speed control, stronger coverage, Natural Cure, and Recover while beating all non-Toxic variants of Skarmory. These traits allow Starmie to survive throughout the game and even possible PP stall with its large amount of PP. Since Starmie is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, it is very vulnerable to Pursuit Tyranitar. Starmie isn’t especially bulky either, often being forced into Recover loops on against the various threats it checks with some chip damage, making it harder to spin Spikes should it be too cavalier with its health early-game.

Starmie can run 32 Special Defense EVs to avoid the an OHKO after sand damage from Pursuit Tyranitar. Additionally, Starmie can forgo the extra Special Attack EVs for maximum Speed investment to outrun Salac Berry-boosted Endeavor Swampert instead of spamming Recover as it Swampert uses Endeavor. Starmie can also run considerably less Speed depending on the team's needs, such as 176 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Dugtrio, 136 Speed EVs for base positive base 100s like Salamence, Zapdos, and Charizard, 56 Speed EVs for positive base 90s such as Moltres, or even a Bold nature with heavy Defense investment to better check physical Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl. Starmie should run a minimum amount of 16 Speed EVs to outspeed Pokemon with base 85 Speed and a neutral nature like Heracross and Suicune. How Starmie is played changes with different Speed investment; slower Starmie sets often are played similarly to Milotic as a bulky wall that can Rapid Spin, whereas faster Starmie sets are better against Spikes teams due to outspeeding Gengar.

Team Options
========
Defensive Starmie typically fits on balanced teams that need Spikes removal while being able to and can afford its passivity. Due to Starmie’s ability to defeat most Spikes users other than Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Hidden Power Bug Forretress, Starmie teams typically beat Skarmory down with threats such mixed Tyranitar and Salamence with Fire Blast instead of using Magneton. However, to afford Starmie’s passivity, it commonly needs to be paired with strong physical and special switch-ins. Physically defensive Metagross with Protect on the physical side can handle Snorlax and most Jirachi, while generally tanking boosted threats such as Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and Dragon Dance Gyarados, whereas Blissey or specially defensive Celebi deals with Suicune, while also forming status pivots with Starmie for stalling out Milotic and defensive Jirachi. Pursuit Tyranitar can help remove Gengar once Starmie has paralyzed it so it can Rapid Spin with impunity. Balanced teams struggle with Heracross and commonly carries carry Salamence or Gengar to switch into Megahorn. Starmie also fits well alongside Fighting-types like Medicham and especially well with those with Guts such as Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp, as they can beat Toxic + Protect Skarmory and repeatedly fire off potentially boosted Focus Punch for free since this Skarmory variant will because such Skarmory typically lack Drill Peck.

Starmie can also pair with general Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes teammates such as Tyranitar, Swampert, Gengar, Blissey, and Skarmory; however, make sure that the team isn’t too passive due to lacking a strong cleaner. These types of teams sometimes run Dugtrio as a way to checkmate for removing foes weakened by Spikes in longer games and also removes some prominent Starmie answers such as Calm Mind Celebi, Pursuit Tyranitar, and even a paralyzed Blissey and Jirachi. Dugtrio can also trap Heracross, the one Fighting-type Starmie struggles against, and Starmie deals with Pokemon immune to Ground for Dugtrio such as Salamence, Gyarados, Charizard, and Moltres.

As a niche option, defensive Starmie can work on that focus on paralyzing the opponent, paralysis focused teams with Pokemon such as with Porygon2, defensive Jirachi, Thunder Wave Zapdos, and Snorlax. These types of teams commonly struggle with Spikes and benefit from the unique array of Pokemon Starmie can check, such as Moltres, Charizard, Swampert, and Metagross. However, Starmie should not be the only check to these Pokemon on these teams, as it can be easily overwhelmed. However, this allows them to use more offensive lures to Skarmory, such as Choice Band Metagross and the aforementioned Guts Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp. In addition, slow and powerful Pokemon such as Marowak, Substitute Tyranitar, Curse Swampert, and Rhydon fit well here. Marowak is especially nice here, as it can provide a pseudo passable Rock-type resistance while heavily threatening most of the metagame.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Offensive Starmie has other niche options for its last moveslot. Hidden Power Grass guarantees a 2HKO on Swampert without having to use Hydro Pump while also hitting the rare Lanturn. Surf in the last slot can be run alongside Hydro Pump to accurately hit Pokemon that will KO it if Hydro Pump misses, such as a weakened Metagross, Magneton, or Aerodactyl. Thunder over Thunderbolt can be used to hit Skarmory much harder and 2HKO Milotic in sand, which will otherwise stall out Starmie with Toxic and Recover, but beware of its low accuracy. It also generally hits Electric-weak threats like Skarmory much harder than Thunderbolt when it hits. On the defensive set, the most prominent alternative option is to use Toxic. Toxic forces poison on the many threats it checks, Its forced damage is sometimes more valuable than Thunder Wave, (comma) beating Swampert more easily and eventually forcing Blissey out. Toxic can occasionally be more valuable than Thunder Wave for defensive Starmie to beat Swampert more easily while eventually forcing Blissey out. However, Skarmory, Gengar, and Forretress are all immune to it, making it worse as a spinner. Starmie also has access to both Reflect and Light Screen, which can assist teammates while also helping itself survive and let it withstand Explosion or Pursuit from Tyranitar. Starmie can only fit one screen without getting too passive, as running dual screens makes Starmie considerably more passive than it already is.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Special Walls**: Even offensive Starmie will make little progress against special walls like Blissey, Snorlax, defensive Jirachi, specially defensive Celebi, and even Regice and Registeel. Blissey is the best Starmie counter in the game, as Blissey takes little damage from anything Starmie can do. Snorlax and Regice are less bulky but can take multiple hits and respond with powerful attacks. Jirachi and Celebi can heal and hit hard 2HKO back with Electric-type coverage and or Hidden Power Grass, respectively. However, Celebi needs to careful, as it needs to repeatedly Recover against Ice Beam Ice Beam forces repeated Recover uses. Registeel takes little damage from anything Starmie can do. While these Pokemon wall the defensive set easily, they allow Starmie to spin for free, while some such as Blissey and Registeel are quite passive and invite in dangerous physical Pokemon like Tyranitar, Metagross, Snorlax, and Fighting-types Pokemon.

**Bulky Electric-types**: (is jolteon bulky?) Jolteon, Zapdos, Lanturn, and Raikou all can tank a hit from offensive Starmie and easily remove both variants with Thunderbolt. Jolteon outspeeds all Starmie variants, whereas Raikou can Speed tie with Starmie. Both are bulky enough to take one hits with three layers of Spikes down hit after three Spikes layers, while Raikou can sometimes take 2 Hydro Pump hits if Spikes aren’t down Hydro Pump twice from full HP. Lanturn easily takes on Starmie's coverage while retaliating with its own Thunderbolt. Zapdos is the only prominent Starmie check immune to Spikes, but can’t outspeed offensive Starmie; bulky sets can take Ice Beam twice, while offensive sets can take any attack once and remove Starmie.

**Revenge Killers**: Offensive Starmie’s damage output often makes switching in quite hard, but upon sacrificing a Pokemon, a healthy or faster check can switch in and remove Starmie. Jolly Dugtrio and Aerodactyl only need a small amount of chip damage to remove Starmie without bulk investment, whereas Swampert and Metagross can survive a Hydro Pump at reasonable health and hit hard in return. In desperate situations, maximum HP Tyranitar can survive take Timid offensive Starmie’s Hydro Pump at full health and hit hard with Hidden Power Bug or OHKO back with Crunch.

**Ghost-types**: Ghost-types like Gengar and Dusclops can spinblock Starmie. Gengar can also hit Starmie hard with Thunderbolt, OHKOing offensive Starmie if Gengar has significant SpA Special Attack investment. However, both Starmie sets can greatly threaten Gengar; if Gengar switches in on anything but Rapid Spin, it will be KOed by the ensuing Hydro Pump or Psychic from offensive Starmie, whereas the defensive set can cripple it with Thunder Wave or hit it with Psychic. Dusclops is rare but is much bulkier than Gengar, not weak to Psychic, and is able to retaliate with Shadow Ball.

**Setup Sweepers**: Setup Pokemon that can shrug off status and Surf can use defensive Starmie as setup fodder. Examples include Calm Mind + Rest Suicune, Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, Curse Snorlax, Taunt or Rest + Dragon Dance Gyarados if Starmie lacks Thunderbolt, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi. These Pokemon, especially Calm Mind Jirachi, Curse Snorlax, and Calm Mind + RestTalk Suicune, (comma) often heavily threaten teams Starmie finds itself on.

**Water-type checks**: (this is hardly better than saying "starmie checks") Defensive Starmie can do little damage to bulky Water-type resists answers such as Milotic and Celebi, and is completely walled by to Vaporeon. Against offensive Starmie, these checks can at least bait out a weaker coverage move like Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to switch into a teammate that can’t take Hydro Pump twice.

**Dark-types**: Tyranitar and Umbreon can check defensive Starmie due to its weakness to Dark-type weakness. Pursuit Tyranitar can KO defensive Starmie after some damage and is commonly found on teams with Forretress lacking Hidden Power Bug as it can KO even defensive Starmie after some chip, but Tyranitar is 2HKOed by Surf from defensive Starmie and takes heavy damage from offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump. Umbreon can more reliably Pursuit trap Starmie thanks to its high special bulk and access to Toxic, but it cannot KO a healthy Starmie with Pursuit. It is also taken advantage of exploited by much of the metagame.

**Heracross**: Heracross can easily OHKO Starmie sets and only needs a small amount of bulk to survive even offensive Starmie’s take any Psychic. Heracross can also set up Substitute and Swords Dance on defensive Starmie, while Guts Heracross does not mind taking a Thunder Wave to become even more powerful.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[johnnyg2, 57904]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno,5454 ], [Mikmer, 511989 ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]

Still not very pleased. Sloppy check implementation in places. You're free to make more than one attempt to reach out, I was busy in voice chat that one time

 

[johnnyg2]

Thank you CryoGyro! I apologize for my previous typos from implementing the am check that made it difficult to read -- I have implemented your check with one exception:

It also cripples bulky Pokemon like Toxic + Protect Skarmory and slows down fast Speed-reliant Pokemon like Zapdos and Gengar, making them less effective at their roles and allowing Starmie's slower teammates to deal with them.

The last part of the sentence is pretty critical for context, as Starmie sometimes sacrifices itself to do this and I thought taking it out took away too much. and for the purposes of offstar, jolteon is a bulky electric :)

one more to go!

 

[CryoGyro]

the original doesn't make sacrificing itself clear either, how about

It also cripples bulky Pokemon like Toxic + Protect Skarmory and slows down Speed-reliant Pokemon like Zapdos and Gengar, making them easier to revenge kill if they KO Starmie and weaker in general.

 

[P Squared]

GP 2/2

i learned a lot about starmie...
make sure to use straight apostrophes; i think i fixed them all
video on how to implement gp checks if you need it

Hide

[OVERVIEW]

Starmie is a formidable late-game threat and a reliable Rapid Spin user thanks to its blazing Speed, powerful Hydro Pump, and useful coverage. The only common threats that can outspeed it are Jolly Dugtrio, Jolteon, and Aerodactyl. Starmie's presence forces faster-paced teams to carry revenge killers or checks that can withstand two hits, while slower teams are forced on the back foot as Starmie removes their Spikes on a forced switch to a passive special wall. This cements Starmie's placement on Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams as a spinner and late-game cleaner.

Thanks to Recover and Natural Cure, Starmie can also run a bulky Rapid Spin set to repeatedly remove Spikes throughout the game. Starmie's main competitors as a spinner—Claydol and Forretress—struggle against status, residual damage, and Skarmory, although Starmie still dislikes Toxic. A bulky Starmie can also check common Pokemon such as offensive Swampert, Metagross, Cloyster, Breloom, Moltres, and Charizard. Additionally, Starmie can pair with other Natural Cure users like Blissey and Celebi to absorb status, pressuring status-reliant walls like Milotic, Swampert, and Blissey.

Starmie is held back by its inability to play offense and defense simultaneously. Offensive variants cannot switch directly into attacks; are easily revenge killed by Aerodactyl and Jolly Dugtrio; must land the imperfectly accurate Hydro Pump against dangerous foes such as Magneton, Metagross, Tyranitar, and Swampert; and struggle to muscle through defensive answers such as Snorlax, Celebi, Jirachi, and especially Blissey without sand and Spikes. On the other hand, defensive Starmie is quite passive and setup fodder for Pokemon such as Celebi, Snorlax, Suicune, Heracross, Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi, and Taunt + Dragon Dance Gyarados. Starmie's bulk and defensive typing are poor, forcing even bulky variants to use Recover often, and it is easily put into KO range of Pursuit Tyranitar's Crunch and Cloyster's Explosion through chip damage like sand and Spikes. Starmie's competition as a spinner in Claydol and Forretress have much higher bulk and utility; both are immune to sand and Claydol is immune to Spikes. Starmie is also vulnerable to mind games against teams with Gengar and Toxic + Protect Skarmory, which can spinblock while Toxic wears it down.

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin / Psychic / Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Hydro Pump is a must despite its unreliability, as it can potentially OHKO Claydol, can OHKO Tyranitar that don't invest heavily in bulk, has a chance to 2HKO Forretress, and always 2HKOes Gengar. With Spikes, Starmie becomes even harder to check, wearing down defensive Jirachi; and threatening a 2HKO on Metagross and a 3HKO on Snorlax; and guaranteeing a OHKO on Tyranitar. Ice Beam hits Salamence, Zapdos, and Venusaur hard while forcing Celebi to repeatedly use Recover, whereas Thunderbolt nails Skarmory and Water-types like Milotic, Suicune, Gyarados, Vaporeon, and opposing Starmie.

Starmie has multiple options for its last move. Rapid Spin works as an emergency removal for Spikes on a forced switch. It is also quite effective in faster-paced games such as those against Jolteon Spikes, as Starmie only needs to spin once. Since this Starmie is offensive, do not expect it to spin multiple times. Additionally, it can't afford to be spinblocked, as Gengar will take Hydro Pump and potentially KO back with Thunderbolt. Psychic is a nice option for Gengar and Venusaur as well as Fighting-types such as Heracross, Hariyama, and Breloom. Specifically, it can KO specially bulky Gengar with some prior damage and gives Starmie reason to switch into Gengar's Ice Punch, Taunt, or Will-O-Wisp. It also lets Starmie threaten an OHKO on Breloom and chipped Heracross without bulk investment and a 2HKO on bulky Heracross and Hariyama. Recover negates chip damage if the team already has a spinner or does not value Psychic's coverage. It allows Starmie to absorb status with Natural Cure and repeatedly force out Moltres, mixed Salamence, and Charizard. Starmie can also drop one of its coverage moves to run both Recover and Rapid Spin to give it more reliability as a spinner. It switches into Blissey early-game, as it doesn't give up momentum and shrugs off Blissey's attacks barring Thunderbolt. Offensive Starmie almost always have maximum Speed to outpace everything up to Salac Berry-boosted Swampert. Starmie can run a Modest nature to OHKO maximum HP Tyranitar and more likely 2HKO Skarmory. This is often done if using Starmie without Spikes or alongside support for removing Gengar.

Starmie should be brought in only at opportune moments such as predicted switches, when a Pokemon faints, or resisted moves from something it threatens out, like Moltres, Gengar, or Claydol. Beware of trying to use it to check Skarmory and Forretress early-game, especially if Skarmory has Toxic and Protect or Forretress has Hidden Power Bug; this often leads to a situation where one layer of Spikes is still up and Starmie is too low on HP to perform properly.

Team Options
========
Starmie needs specific support to cleave through teams. First and foremost, Tyranitar's sand helps make residual damage stick for easier sweeping, and Starmie can threaten out sand-immune Rock- and Ground-types with Hydro Pump and 2HKO most Steel-types bar defensive Jirachi and Registeel. Tyranitar is also a fantastic switch-in to Blissey, Snorlax, and defensive Jirachi without Hidden Power Fighting or Toxic. It can also use Focus Punch on Swampert and Metagross, weakening them for Starmie's Hydro Pump. Other strong attackers can fill this niche as well, such as Metagross, Focus Punch Swampert, and Snorlax.

Another way to use Starmie is to control the Spikes game: keep up more Spikes than the opponent. Good Spikes users include Skarmory and Forretress, although Cloyster and Smeargle are niche options for faster-paced teams. Skarmory is the most common choice thanks to its defensive utility. Gengar is also nice on these teams, as it is the best spinblocker and can help remove special walls with Explosion or use Taunt + Will-O-Wisp to prevent them from healing. Another option to keep the Spikes advantage is to use Claydol alongside Starmie, which frees Starmie up to run Psychic or Recover, provides a Rock resistance, and threatens special walls with Explosion. Due to Starmie's defensive liabilities, it commonly prefers defensive teammates on Spikes teams, such as strong special walls like Blissey and Jirachi and good physical walls such as Swampert, defensive Metagross, and Flygon. These options often make up the core of common Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes (TSS) teams alongside Tyranitar, Gengar, and Skarmory.

To further support Starmie, Explosion users like Gengar, Weezing, and Regice can lure in Blissey and often weaken it enough so that Dugtrio or residual damage can finish it off. Even without Explosion, Dugtrio is a fantastic partner with a good Blissey lure like Baton Pass Zapdos; Beat Up Dugtrio can easily remove it, defensive Jirachi, and Celebi. Additionally, other staples of special offense such as Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, offensive Swampert, mixed Metagross, Calm Mind Jirachi, Calm Mind Suicune, and Dragon Dance + Hidden Power Grass Tyranitar weaken special checks for a Starmie sweep. Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi is particularly synergetic, as it can pass Calm Mind to Starmie to more easily muscle past its checks.

Strong Fighting-types like Hariyama, Heracross, Breloom, Machamp, and Medicham are especially good alongside Starmie, as they help punch through bulky Normal-types like Blissey and Snorlax. They work especially well alongside Recover + Rapid Spin Starmie, as they can repeatedly fire off Focus Punch into Toxic + Protect Skarmory, while Starmie beats Drill Peck versions. Starmie is also a nice check to Salamence, a common Fighting answer.

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Recover
move 3: Surf
move 4: Thunder Wave / Psychic / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Defensive Starmie is one of OU's three consistent spinners and checks many dangerous threats with its speed, Recover, and Water / Psychic typing.

With maximum HP investment and Recover, Starmie is bulky enough to repeatedly remove Spikes. Running 40 Special Attack EVs guarantees a 2HKO on maximum HP Tyranitar with Surf, while 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature beat Gengar, only falling short of opposing Starmie, Salac Berry-boosted Swampert, and Raikou. In the last moveslot, Starmie has several options. The most prominent of these is Thunder Wave; Thunder Wave paralyzes dangerous setup threats not bothered by Starmie's weak Surf, like Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragon Dance Gyarados without Taunt, and Calm Mind Jirachi. It also cripples bulky Pokemon like Toxic + Protect Skarmory and slows down Speed-reliant Pokemon like Zapdos and Gengar, making them easier to revenge kill if they KO Starmie and weaker in general. For other options, Psychic is fantastic against Gengar trying to spinblock and Fighting-types. Thunderbolt assists Starmie against Gyarados, Cloyster, and Skarmory. Ice Beam allows Starmie to be a strong Salamence, Flygon, and Breloom answer while being less passive against Zapdos and defensive Celebi. The best coverage choice generally depends on the team's major weaknesses, whereas Thunder Wave is the best for general purposes.

Defensive Starmie generally competes with Claydol, as Forretress typically requires Pursuit support to handle Gengar. In comparison to Claydol, Starmie is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, lacks a Rock resistance, cannot directly remove threats such as Celebi, Suicune, and Salamence with Explosion, and struggles against Toxic Skarmory without Refresh. On the other hand, Starmie has good speed control, stronger coverage, Natural Cure, and Recover while beating all non-Toxic variants of Skarmory. These traits allow Starmie to survive throughout the game and even PP stall with its large amount of PP. Since Starmie is easily chipped by sand and Spikes, it is very vulnerable to Pursuit Tyranitar. Starmie isn't especially bulky either, often being forced into Recover loops against the various threats it checks with some chip damage, making it harder to spin should it be too cavalier with its health early-game.

Starmie can run 32 Special Defense EVs to avoid an OHKO after sand damage from Pursuit Tyranitar. Additionally, Starmie can forgo the extra Special Attack EVs for maximum Speed investment to outrun Salac Berry-boosted Endeavor Swampert instead of spamming Recover as it uses Endeavor. Starmie can also run considerably less Speed depending on the team's needs, such as 176 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Dugtrio; 136 Speed EVs for Salamence, Zapdos, and Charizard; 56 Speed EVs for Moltres; or even a Bold nature with heavy Defense investment to better check physical Tyranitar, Metagross, Swampert, and Aerodactyl. Starmie should run a minimum of 16 Speed EVs to outspeed Pokemon like Heracross and Suicune. How Starmie is played changes with different Speed investment; slower Starmie sets often are played similarly to Milotic, whereas faster Starmie sets are better against Spikes teams due to outspeeding Gengar.

Team Options
========
Defensive Starmie typically fits on balanced teams that need Spikes removal and can afford its passivity. Due to Starmie's ability to defeat Spikes users other than Toxic + Protect Skarmory and Hidden Power Bug Forretress, Starmie teams typically beat Skarmory down with threats such as mixed Tyranitar and Salamence with Fire Blast instead of using Magneton. However, to afford Starmie's passivity, it commonly needs to be paired with strong physical and special switch-ins. Physically defensive Metagross with Protect can handle Snorlax and most Jirachi, while generally tanking boosted threats such as Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and Dragon Dance Gyarados, whereas Blissey or specially defensive Celebi deals with Suicune, while also along with forming status pivots with Starmie for stalling out Milotic and defensive Jirachi. Pursuit Tyranitar can remove Gengar once Starmie has paralyzed it. Balanced teams struggle with Heracross and commonly carry Salamence or Gengar to switch into Megahorn. Starmie also fits well alongside Fighting-types like Medicham and especially well with those with Guts such as Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp, as they can beat Toxic + Protect Skarmory and repeatedly fire off Focus Punch for free because such Skarmory will typically lack Drill Peck.

Starmie can also pair with general Toxic, Sandstorm, and Spikes teammates such as Tyranitar, Swampert, Gengar, Blissey, and Skarmory; however, make sure that the team isn't too passive due to lacking a strong cleaner. These types of teams sometimes run Dugtrio for removing foes weakened by Spikes in longer games and prominent Starmie answers such as Calm Mind Celebi, Pursuit Tyranitar, and even paralyzed Blissey and Jirachi. Dugtrio can also trap Heracross, the one Fighting-type Starmie struggles against, and Starmie deals with Pokemon immune to Ground for Dugtrio such as Salamence, Gyarados, Charizard, and Moltres.

As a niche option, defensive Starmie can work on paralysis-focused teams with Pokemon such as Porygon2, defensive Jirachi, Thunder Wave Zapdos, and Snorlax. These types of teams commonly struggle with Spikes and benefit from the unique array of Pokemon Starmie can check, such as Moltres, Charizard, Swampert, and Metagross. However, Starmie should not be the only check to these Pokemon, as it can be easily overwhelmed. However Still, (or whatever transition word makes sense; I changed "however" bc we just used that a sentence ago this allows them to use more offensive lures to Skarmory, such as Choice Band Metagross and Guts Hariyama, Heracross, and Machamp. In addition, slow and powerful Pokemon such as Marowak, Substitute Tyranitar, Curse Swampert, and Rhydon fit well here. Marowak is especially nice, as it can provide a passable Rock resistance while heavily threatening most of the metagame.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Offensive Starmie has other niche options for its last moveslot. Hidden Power Grass guarantees a 2HKO on Swampert without having to use Hydro Pump while also hitting the rare Lanturn. Surf can be run alongside Hydro Pump to accurately hit Pokemon that will KO it Starmie if Hydro Pump misses, such as weakened Metagross, Magneton, or Aerodactyl. Thunder over Thunderbolt can be used to hit Skarmory much harder and 2HKO Milotic in sand, which will otherwise stall out Starmie with Toxic and Recover, but beware of its low accuracy. It also generally hits Electric-weak threats like Skarmory much harder than Thunderbolt. On the defensive set, the most prominent alternative option is to use Toxic. Its forced damage is sometimes more valuable than Thunder Wave, letting you beating Swampert more easily and eventually forcing Blissey out. However, Skarmory, Gengar, and Forretress are immune to it, making it Toxic Starmie worse as a spinner. Starmie also has access to both Reflect and Light Screen, which can assist teammates and let it withstand Explosion or Pursuit from Tyranitar. However, Starmie can only fit one screen without getting too passive.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Special Walls**: Even offensive Starmie will make little progress against special walls like Blissey, Snorlax, defensive Jirachi, specially defensive Celebi, and even Regice and Registeel. Blissey is the best Starmie counter. Snorlax and Regice are less bulky but can take multiple hits and respond with powerful attacks. Jirachi and Celebi can heal and 2HKO back with Electric-type coverage or Hidden Power Grass. However, Celebi needs to be careful, as Ice Beam forces repeated Recover uses. Registeel takes little damage from anything Starmie can do. While these Pokemon wall the defensive set easily, they allow Starmie to spin for free, while some such as Blissey and Registeel are quite passive and invite in dangerous physical Pokemon like Tyranitar, Metagross, Snorlax, and Fighting-types.

**Bulky Electric-types**: Jolteon, Zapdos, Lanturn, and Raikou can tank a hit from offensive Starmie and easily remove both variants with Thunderbolt. Jolteon outspeeds all Starmie variants, whereas Raikou can Speed tie with Starmie. Both are bulky enough to take one hit after three Spikes layers, while Raikou can sometimes take Hydro Pump twice from full HP. Lanturn easily takes on Starmie's coverage. Zapdos is the only prominent Starmie check immune to Spikes, but it can't outspeed offensive Starmie; bulky sets can take Ice Beam twice, while offensive sets can take any attack once and remove Starmie.

**Revenge Killers**: Offensive Starmie's damage output often makes switching in quite hard, but upon sacrificing a Pokemon, a healthy or faster check can switch in and remove Starmie. Jolly Dugtrio and Aerodactyl only need a small amount of chip damage to remove Starmie without bulk investment, whereas Swampert and Metagross can survive Hydro Pump at reasonable health and hit hard in return. In desperate situations, maximum HP Tyranitar can take Timid offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump and hit hard with Hidden Power Bug or OHKO back with Crunch.

**Ghost-types**: Ghost-types like Gengar and Dusclops can spinblock Starmie. Gengar can also hit Starmie hard with Thunderbolt, OHKOing offensive Starmie if Gengar has significant Special Attack investment. However, both Starmie sets can greatly threaten Gengar; if Gengar switches in on anything but Rapid Spin, it will be KOed by the ensuing Hydro Pump or Psychic from offensive Starmie, whereas the defensive set can cripple it with Thunder Wave or hit it with Psychic. Dusclops is rare but is much bulkier than Gengar, not weak to Psychic, and able to retaliate with Shadow Ball.

**Setup Sweepers**: Setup Pokemon that can shrug off status and Surf can use defensive Starmie as setup fodder. Examples include Calm Mind + Rest Suicune, Calm Mind + Baton Pass Celebi, Curse Snorlax, Taunt or Rest + Dragon Dance Gyarados if Starmie lacks Thunderbolt, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi. These Pokemon, especially Calm Mind Jirachi, Curse Snorlax, and Calm Mind + RestTalk Suicune, often heavily threaten teams Starmie finds itself on.

**Water-type Checks**: Defensive Starmie can do little damage to bulky Water answers such as Milotic and Celebi, (remove comma) and is completely walled by Vaporeon. Against offensive Starmie, these checks can bait out a weaker coverage move like Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to switch into a teammate that can't take Hydro Pump twice.

**Dark-types**: Pursuit Tyranitar can KO defensive Starmie after some damage and is commonly found on teams with Forretress lacking Hidden Power Bug, but it is 2HKOed by Surf and takes heavy damage from offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump. Umbreon can more reliably Pursuit trap Starmie thanks to its high special bulk and Toxic, but it cannot KO a healthy Starmie with Pursuit. It is also exploited by much of the metagame.

**Heracross**: Heracross can easily OHKO Starmie and only needs a small amount of bulk to take any Psychic. Heracross can also set up Substitute and Swords Dance on defensive Starmie, while Guts Heracross does not mind taking Thunder Wave to become even more powerful.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[johnnyg2, 57904]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno,5454 ], [Mikmer, 511989 ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[CryoGyro, 331519 ], [, ]]
[/QUOTE]

 

[johnnyg2]

GP 2/2

i learned a lot about starmie...
make sure to use straight apostrophes; i think i fixed them all
video on how to implement gp checks if you need it

Thanks P squared! I have implemented your check! I don't know how those apostrophes happened, fixed all of those. I had one question:

In this sentence: "Its forced damage is sometimes more valuable than Thunder Wave, letting you beating Swampert more easily and eventually forcing Blissey out." I don't have second person throughout the analysis, what was wrong w "beating"? If its ok, id be happy to put it in, but it read a bit wrong to me