OU ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

[bdt2002]

Following a recent fallout I recently had with parts of the Pokémon fandom a little over a month ago at this point, if I'm not mistaken, I recently took an extended break from any and all Pokémon-related threads for reasons I won't be diving into here. That being said... I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in the idea of making a new VR for Gen 3 OU in 2023. I'm still not going to act like I'm nearly experienced enough to make a full tier list using that template (I may still do one for fun, though, if that's okay with you guys), there are is still one Pokémon I want to talk about in a dedicated post that I'm curious to see where you guys would rank them on your own VR.



This might sound like a hot take, and it is, but I'm done acting like this isn't what I believe. In a tier dominated by Sand Stream, Spikes, Toxic, and several bulky metagame staples, there's one Pokémon that stands out to me among the rest for is role compression, and that Pokémon is Starmie. Case in point, my hot take is that I genuinely believe Starmie is the best Pokémon in the current Gen 3 OU metagame. This isn't a sh**post. I'm being completely serious. I get it- Tyranitar and its sand are as influential as ever, Steel-Types are absolutely incredible in the meta currently, particularly Metagross and Skarmory, Gengar gained Levitate in this generation and has the fastest sleep move in the tier, and Blissey is still the metagame's best special wall by a ridiculous margin. These are all excellent points that I can get behind. But at the end of the day, none of you can deny just how much impact this thing has had while everyone else has been focused on other threats.

For starters, Starmie's matchup spread against the current metagame is absolutely amazing. Tyranitar, Metagross, Skarmory, Gengar, Salamence, Gyarados, and the two Fire-Types are all very much winnable depending on Starmie's moveset. Even matchups that still aren't great like Zapdos and Celebi aren't completely hopeless thanks to Ice Beam's great synergy with Water-Type attacks. Offensive Starmie has the benefit of being one of the tier's best special attackers in a physically biased landscape while still being able to fit Rapid Spin in the fourth moveslot. If your team doesn't need all of Surf/Hydro Pump and BoltBeam coverage on one Pokémon, you can even get rid of one of the three attacking moves and run a utility two attacks set with options like the aforementioned Rapid Spin or the Recover/Thunder Wave combo, RBY style. Defensively, being the best Rapid Spinner against Gengar matchup-wise has its perks on both balance and hardcore stall teams. With access to Natural Cure and 32 PP Recover among other unexplored tools, defensive Starmie variants can even try and act like a makeshift Bulky Water which retaining its naturally high base 115 Speed, allowing for more flexibility in the team builder. These are just the strategies Starmie is known for, and while I definitely don't see "Starmie at #1" being a very popular opinion, the fact alone that Rapid Spin Starmie Spikes Stall is seen as one of, if not the metagame's current strongest archetype, means it at least deserves to be in the conversation. Very few Pokémon in any OU metagame get the chance to say they're a part of the name of the tier's best playstyle, and somehow Starmie found a way to make it happen.

 

[5imian]

Gently and respectfully, I think this misses the real reasons that Starmie isn't the best mon in the tier. I really, really want to encourage you to keep thinking about takes like this- it's a part of what makes learning the game so fun and rewarding. Some general thoughts I have here:

1) Blissey is a top 5 mon in the tier. Offmie basically mandates Duggy because without it you have minimal answers to handle Blissey in a reliable and consistent manner, and while I think Offmie is powerful on paper, the structures that can support OffMie + Dugtrio are inherently pretty limited, and tend to be fishy or outdated. In the case of Defensive Starmie, while you do have room to spin, you don't make much progress, and there are better ways to compress and fill the roles of the types starmie checks, and the utility it might provide

1.5) As a corollary, almost all of the reliable special attackers in the metagame have answers or sets that punish Blissey by themselves, or have options and tools that give them momentum into something that punishes blissey. Some rough ideas I can think of off the top of my head (I have a migraine as I write this out, so I might not have the most coherent answers):

- Mixed sets, like Mixmence and UDTar (Fire/Grass/Fighting and then Dragon in mixmences case and Ice in UDTar's case- sometimes you'll see hydromence or slide UDtar, but those options are niche) have solid hits that either force chip on blissey on the switch to force a soft boiled, or with spike support can force kills onto blissey long term

- Moltres is a marquee example of this, in that it can use roar on Blissey switching in to force it into range after a few layers of spikes chip + sand chip; as is something like Zapdos. A classic offense strategy that offmie fits onto is ZapDug, where you early game lead zap to substitute and pass to dugtrio, so you can garuntee a kill on the celebi or blissey coming into stop zapdos's strong hits

- Some special attackers will run tech moves to either try to trade or punish incoming Blissey. Gengar will run boom or taunt which can garuntee denial of softboiled from bliss, while Charziard and the rare Houndoom can run beat up to 2hko blissey. Dugtrio worried about counter blissey will also run beat up to 2hko it safely.

2) Starmie takes spikes damage every time it comes into spin, and sand means it will have to recover. You don't get any passive healing, which heavily limits when it is safe to spin. Claydol, which is currently the "best" spinner in the tier, not only levitates to dodge spikes chip- it also is a ground type, meaning that it doesn't take sand chip. Access to refresh means that on teams that need it as a status absorber, it can do the job of a status absorber about as well as defensive mie does, albeit on a much narrower spectrum of teams.

This is not to say that Mie is a bad mon, by any stretch- I know great players like Vapicuno are experimenting with it because they genuinely believe that it is underrated in the current metagame. I just want to push back against the idea that it's the best pokemon right now. (sidebar, tss means toxic/sand/spikes, it's not a 3 mon name lmao)

 

[bdt2002]

Gently and respectfully, I think this misses the real reasons that Starmie isn't the best mon in the tier. I really, really want to encourage you to keep thinking about takes like this- it's a part of what makes learning the game so fun and rewarding. Some general thoughts I have here:

1) Blissey is a top 5 mon in the tier. Offmie basically mandates Duggy because without it you have minimal answers to handle Blissey in a reliable and consistent manner, and while I think Offmie is powerful on paper, the structures that can support OffMie + Dugtrio are inherently pretty limited, and tend to be fishy or outdated. In the case of Defensive Starmie, while you do have room to spin, you don't make much progress, and there are better ways to compress and fill the roles of the types starmie checks, and the utility it might provide

1.5) As a corollary, almost all of the reliable special attackers in the metagame have answers or sets that punish Blissey by themselves, or have options and tools that give them momentum into something that punishes blissey. Some rough ideas I can think of off the top of my head (I have a migraine as I write this out, so I might not have the most coherent answers):

- Mixed sets, like Mixmence and UDTar (Fire/Grass/Fighting and then Dragon in mixmences case and Ice in UDTar's case- sometimes you'll see hydromence or slide UDtar, but those options are niche) have solid hits that either force chip on blissey on the switch to force a soft boiled, or with spike support can force kills onto blissey long term

- Moltres is a marquee example of this, in that it can use roar on Blissey switching in to force it into range after a few layers of spikes chip + sand chip; as is something like Zapdos. A classic offense strategy that offmie fits onto is ZapDug, where you early game lead zap to substitute and pass to dugtrio, so you can garuntee a kill on the celebi or blissey coming into stop zapdos's strong hits

- Some special attackers will run tech moves to either try to trade or punish incoming Blissey. Gengar will run boom or taunt which can garuntee denial of softboiled from bliss, while Charziard and the rare Houndoom can run beat up to 2hko blissey. Dugtrio worried about counter blissey will also run beat up to 2hko it safely.

2) Starmie takes spikes damage every time it comes into spin, and sand means it will have to recover. You don't get any passive healing, which heavily limits when it is safe to spin. Claydol, which is currently the "best" spinner in the tier, not only levitates to dodge spikes chip- it also is a ground type, meaning that it doesn't take sand chip. Access to refresh means that on teams that need it as a status absorber, it can do the job of a status absorber about as well as defensive mie does, albeit on a much narrower spectrum of teams.

This is not to say that Mie is a bad mon, by any stretch- I know great players like Vapicuno are experimenting with it because they genuinely believe that it is underrated in the current metagame. I just want to push back against the idea that it's the best pokemon right now. (sidebar, tss means toxic/sand/spikes, it's not a 3 mon name lmao)

These are all excellent points, and I still don't want to act like my take is the objectively correct one. I can also absolutely get behind the idea of Blissey being Top 5. If your special attacker doesn't have something that can defeat or at least play around Blissey, it's a bad special attacker. Simple as that. When I say "best Pokémon in the tier", my definition of that tends to be a bit different than most people's. And that's perfectly okay. As far as the Starmie Vs. Claydol Rapid Spin debate goes (and then there's also Forretress and Cloyster I guess), I'll admit Claydol's much better at sticking around throughout a game while also generally not needing to sacrifice STAB Psychic for Gengar as much as Starmie does. I consider it to be a solid Starmie alternative more than anything, really. Both are Psychic-Type spinners who are known for one or two sets that perform well at their roles, and both can give offense, balance, and stall alike some much-needed depth for a deep tournament run or an impressive ladder performance.

All of this being said, I still highly value Starmie's ability to take its high Speed and Natural Cure into a variety of team archetypes in a way that other Rapid Spin users simply can't most of the time. While Starmie on its own definitely has its flaws like you mentioned, notably being vulnerable to the Spikes and sand it's often used to fend off, as well as not having too much in the ever-important Blissey matchup, Starmie, Claydol, whatever spinner you decide to use is one Pokémon on a well-crafted team of six. Starmie might not be able to do everything it wants to all the time, but it doesn't need to. While Claydol is arguably the better Rapid Spin user, Starmie's role compression it can offer to a wider variety of team styles and strong matchups against several of TSS's most prominent names cannot be ignored. Tyranitar, Skarmory, Metagross, Blissey, all of them are admittedly probably better Pokémon overall, but in my eyes, Starmie remains the best at what it can do over its competition and generally offers more to teams that what these teams lose by running Starmie as their Rapid Spinner. In summary, I called Starmie the best not because it is the best, but because it has the most favorable opportunity cost, at least in my opinion.

Opportunity cost is what really sets the good apart from the great with several Pokémon for me, just like the aforementioned Blissey. With only six team slots and so many threats to try and account for, I tend to be a fan of options that offer less common combinations of traits that allow the Pokémon succeed in a wider variety of winning or even matchups compared to the Pokémon is competing for a team slot with on any given archetype.

 

[Cdijk16]

 

[ABR]

S

Skarm teams remain the best in ADV, and while sand is great it's not quite as good as spikes, and Skarm is by far the best spiker. There is also plenty of diversity within Skarm teams, as you can use or not use sand, spin, mag... any permutation can work. Super bulky mons work with Skarm but so do very offensive ones. Spike roar tect + any of peck tox thief is still by far the best to me.


Tar is obviously great. Sand is good not just to stop lax cune salachera sweeps, but also to chip bliss zap and the gang throughout the game. It has plenty of good sets, but I'd overall say that DD is better as a breaker than a cleaner, and pursuit is the overall best set (because it helps vs gar, spinners, and crunch is a very spammable move).

A+

Extremely diverse between status, cm, and cleric sets. It fits best on Skarm teams but that is not an outright requirement. I think there's a common misconception that it's a passive and/or abusable pokemon but pretty much nothing can safely come into all of its sets. For example, Meta or Rachi might beat some toxic sets but hate twave. Pert could abuse twave sets but hates toxic, etc.


The premier physical wall of ADV, vs mons like Tar Meta Mence Aero and so forth. At the same time though, it can be very threatening with curse or focus or just its regular attacks. It can be spikes weak at times but any of wish, mag, spin, or pure out-offensing mitigates this issue pretty well. This is probably a higher Pert ranking than most but it really holds lots of teams together.


The more offensively inclined Swampert. The earthquake weakness can make it shaky vs some physical attackers but it compensates for this with a high atk stat and explosion. I still like protect and CB sets most, but mix and agility have their place. It's pretty great at trading 1 for 1 at the very least, which is amazing for any offensively inclined strategy.

A

1v1s most of the tier and still has tools to bypass its counters. Toxic, twave, hidden power, spikes, dug, all are ways for Zap to apply pressure and bypass walls. Its very flexible, being used anywhere from a pure resting special wall to a fast, powerful attacker. It fits on quite literally every team style too.


MixMence >>>. CB and DD are technically valid and can be threatening but the flexibility of sets and use from early to late game make mix absurdly threatening. The only real counters are like Milotic and rest Zap, which aren't too difficult to beat around with teammates or just the right circumstances. Blissey, Gar, and Aero type things beat it too but not forever so you're really always on a timer vs Mence. All this offensive prowess aside, speed and intimidate give it tons of defensive value as well.


Broken if wisp hits but... yea. It's fast and versatile and you never really know what it's running, while also being the best spinblocker 95% of the time - a trait very valuable when Skarm is the #1 pokemon. That said, it can really run out of steam if wisp misses, if it takes some chip from like Skarm peck, or Tar pursuits it. You kind of need to sequence it correctly to get the most out of it, and there isn't a ton of room for error sometimes. It can be so great but can also feel inconsistent, and I'm not as high on it as I once was. Maybe I'll change my mind.


Has lots of good sets but honestly wish tect does the job almost every time. It's pretty much the only self healing rock resist which is extremely clutch vs things like Aero, and wish can heal teammates too. Fire + tox or something is very hard for offense to switch into, and even bulkier teams need to react passively to it by going to rest or natcure mons. You also need to be careful playing vs it, or one of the cm sets can get out of hand fast.

A-

The choice scarfer of ADV. It can revenge kill pretty much any threat and also break super well with spikes down. All of its answers besides Flygon take spikes so... yea. You can't really go wrong putting it on a spikes team. I don't have too much new to say about it but it really feels like no game is over when you have Aero in the back because one de/eq predict or a flinch can break open the whole game.


Super great with Skarm but also by no means a pure necessity. It traps (at different ranges) all of Tar Bliss Meta Cele Rachi so... that's quite useful. I have it slightly outside of top10 because I'm lower on milo dol skarm bliss teams than I used to be, so that limits one of the major archetypes it fits on.


Good but not supergoat, anything from leech 3 to bp to perish to bell sets are very good on the right team. It's great at applying offensive pressure and checking things like zap pert but defensively it has very apparent issues compared to its usual competition in Blissey. Missing leech is also devastating.


Still the kind of mon that does a ton at once in terms of role compression and it's the best spinner... but playing the mindgames vs Gar can be so unbelievably frustrating that it can feel easier to just not bother spinning with it. Same as usual though it soft checks a ton like Zap Mence Tar 1v1 but it's not a full on counter to anything really.

B+

Bold rest is pretty cringe. Modest cro is solid but can feel like a diceroll with the sleep talks so I prefer offensive sets myself. It's a very useful mon when the gamestate allows it to be, but dealing with sand or spikes or god forbid both is always frustrating for a restmon and getting rid of those conditions is unreliable.


Offensive is solid with spikes or Dug, but in general I like bulky twave a lot more. The thing with bulky twave is that you need support for its issues - namely Gar and suit Tar. So, using at least one of suit Tar of ur own, Dug, or even wish so it comes in at 100 will go a long way in having it feel more consistent. Despite these issues it also 1v1s Skarm a lot better than Dol does so that aspect is always nice.


The only spike-immune rock resist. That is an eternally useful role that will never go away. It also isn't really passive, Gar takes permachip in sand and Skarm loses to flame long term. Offensive sets are valid but not my cup of tea because they don't really play to Flygon's defensive strengths.


Nothing crazy but also gets way too much hate. Rest always feels very shitty but classic boom sets with some assortment of curse bslam eq sball focus boom etc should be able to trade or get valuable chip in most games, while being a one-time check to pretty much every pokemon.

B

Best with Skarm, valid on offense but need to be amazing offensively to circumvent the defensive holes. Either using Blissey or the combo of Lax Cele goes a long way in accounting for defenses on Mag teams. Modest magnet always.


Modest overheat go brrr. Kind of wants spikes 95% of the time but is absolutely amazing when that requirement is met. No spike immune is safe, while stuff like Bliss can only come in with spikes down a limited amount.


Less spammy than Molt and harder to use but has the benefit of not needing spikes to kill Bliss. Focus and beatup are both viable still, as are both ice and grass. It just depends what you're weak to and if you're able to catch the opponent off guard.


Unfortunately vir5in (milo dug dol skarm bliss) is generally super weak to Aero so I don't love it atm... and it's hard to fit milo elsewhere. That said, it is still so good vs mixed attackers and forcing things like Meta to trade. Hypnosis is a great way to make it feel more offensive, particularly on spikeless builds.

B-

A big "game opener" with spore, and the ability to run various hidden powers or leech make it very good at forcing progress. Defensively pretty mid so you gotta play to its strengths.


Megahorn sucks, but Hera can be pretty great when it gets going. By "gets going" I mean focus punching or magging Skarm, rock sliding Mence, and hitting your megahorns. But still, it can be really threatening.


I still have not personally found a reason to use it ever, but technically some other people win some games with it so I'll put it ahead of the BLs.

Almost OU

Good, twave and boom are great moves, hp fire and grass are both viable too.


Knock is a great move but this thing is a little too hyped... it gets to knock like one thing and can only come into things like Tar once. You need to make that early progress count, or you need to repeatedly wish and spin which can be very lame vs more offensive things. I respect it but not quite OU level to me yet.


Its coverage really sucks and it's terrible at damaging Skarm, but with booms or mag it can get there. It's good either alongside Mence or just used to better the Pert / MixMence matchups.


Literally same as Forry, but takes sand too instead of just spikes.


Good but only fits on a few teams / styles... like mie rachi cele dug 90% of the time but the other 10% is valid just less established or consistent.


Perish trap is still the best set, and it can get a really nasty lead alongside Dug to start. Just obviously the 5v5 with you having an eq-locked Dug isn't ideal, so those matchups need to be accounted for. It has high upside vs Skarm, Zap, Cune, and Mence but jolly cb smashes so... yea.


The desire to use this thing has mostly passed, but maybe there's some use for it somewhere.


Threatening but can feel prediction reliant or easily revenge killed. Definitely worth using it's just not as seamless as say, Loom. Sub focus is probably the best way to use it in a way that is easier to click with.


Lead feels like it has the lowest floor possible, while the ceiling is infrequent and not that high. Back-end sets (bp?) can do some work still.


Leech accuracy, sleep accuracy, sleep turns... the embodiment of coin flipping.

Tried, Viable
These pokemon can work, but only occasionally and on very limited team structures.

Might Try
I feel like these all have use somewhere but haven't explored them enough myself.

 

[Altina]

 

[Redless]

I'm not good at this whole tier yet, but I wanted to post this VR as a checkpoint. I want to clarify something about this VR. As a new player, I rely heavily on trusting more experienced players when I decide what to build with, and what to bring to games, because I simply don't have much experience with most threats in this game.

However, this VR isn't based on my trust in the stronger players I've talked with, or even in my own theorycraft, it's based mostly on my firsthand experience. I could easily make a more "accurate" VR by substituting in the stuff I've learned by osmosis. But that's a lot less interesting to me and I'm worried that if I do that I'll encourage the creation of "false consensus" around the established opinions. Plus it's a lot less interesting! So I made this instead. But that means you should take it with a lot of salt.

1. Dug seems incredibly strong to me. It is so flexible in what it can trap, and as a result, what types of teams it can fit on. It can kill most stuff if you chip it. It can target specific threats really well, such as Blissey or Tar who an entire enemy team might be hinging on. It also excels in stall mirrors and can cover otherwise-annoying guys (CMers, Fighters, etc.).
2. Magneton seems really weak to me. It kills Skarmory and then it sucks for the rest of the game. Skarm will usually get one if not two layers of spikes in the process. And that's if your opponent isn't playing around Magneton at all.
3. Certain BLs like Regice seem super strong to me. Conversely some staples such as Lax don't seem that strong. Flygon in particular seems really physically frail and Skarm vulnerable. I don't see Moltres as very dangerous compared to Charizard.
4. Pert doesn't seem that strong to me. Especially compared to Cune. Cune doesn't sport the double grass weakness, and does much better into slower teams.
5. I didn't rank some BLs such as Glalie as I've never played with them even a bit. Also Registeel.

 

[Siglut]

Been sitting on this for a while, and think I've captured everything I want to here. Hopefully putting things in spoiler tags makes it so that these pages don't get as ridiculously long as they always do. Thanks for reading.

S:

The skarm truthers have convinced me that sand has been a bit overrated in the past. However, it's still an incredible tool and also happens to make the game way more tolerable at the same time... for real, sandless adv is miserable. And that's without considering how ttar is an excellent mon in its own right - both in terms of what each set can do and how scary it can be for your opponent to see an unrevealed tar sitting there, which I think is a pretty underrated aspect people could take advantage of more often (and intentionally and not just on turn 1). Not a set I've invented or anything, but I've been liking max attack max speed adamant 4atks lum tar recently. Really puts on the pressure on teams that don't need BKCtar's bulk. I haven't tried sub tar recently, but I think it's really well-positioned right now and a lot of other players are showing that.
I respect skarm 1, but if you think tar isn't top 2 then you're bad or trolling/attention seeking, and probably a combination of both. I'm pretty sure nobody's actually doing that, just something I've seen on discord from time to time.

A+:

As good as ever. Same as last time, I think skarm vs gar here is super close, but I've used a bit more garless spikes than I have skarmless gar teams recently, so skarm gets the nod here. Looking forward to the spreadsheet coming out so I can see I'm tied for lowest skarm ranking.


Beating a dead horse, it's super close with skarm. Needs a couple conditions to be incredibly threatening, but unlike a few mons we'll get into later those conditions are extremely easy to meet. Sand and 1 spike up is normally something you'll have accomplished by like turn 4 and will maintain the rest of the game, so every time gengar comes in if you play your cards right it can do some serious damage. Spikeless gar teams are ok too, leaning a bit more on its natural defensive qualities, but it's harder to put yourself in situations where exploding isn't a prediction, if that makes sense. Still an excellent mon, even on those teams. I think hypnogar is probably due for a resurgence sometime in the near future. Also, focus punch is pretty much an improvement over taunt, but dropping boom always feels bad.

A:

One of just a couple mons in the tier that feels without flaw. Standard defensive sets struggle a little with skarmory and status but other sets fix those problems and so can some clever teambuilding. Often feels like the only very reliable check to ddtar and aerodactyl, although not immune to being worn down over time. Surf protect roar focus punch has been feeling really good for me on aggressive spikes teams.


Excellent defensive capabilities, close to unwallable, and can very frequently trade 2-for-1 in the endgame. A lot of the time, it can be all three of those in the same game. Agility rock slide is a good set, and there are some teams that are really improved by it, but I do think it's a bit overrated right now.


Much like metagross, zapdos is an offensive and defensive behemoth. Probably my favorite pokemon to use in the tier; it's just so customizable and, I don't really have a great way to put this, brings a sense of security to the team. It's fast, strong, bulky, ground-immune, what more could you want?

B+

Sidenote on Blissey and Celebi: they're pretty much even and I use both of them a lot, but the fact that I pretty much never use them together brings them down just a little bit. Celebi gets the edge because of my personal preference.


An excellent offensive mon - really makes the style tick. Gets put a spot under blissey because blissey in celebi's spot on offense is normally functional, celebi in blissey's spot on defensive teams isn't. Leech seed is excellent for healing a little bit and making your opponent want to switch as well. Leech 3atks is very good but can be played around if you think it might be coming, also can be easily put into a position where missing a leech seed means death. Superbi is as good as ever, meaning it's really really good.


While it's a bad play most of the time, having blissey stay in and click thunder wave on (and then beat 1v1) your physical mon is one of the most frustrating experiences ADV can offer. Obviously next-to-indomitable vs special threats, and can keep the team healthy with wish or aromatherapy if needed, although I think those only really fit on very bulky teams. I was a blissey hater before, so maybe I'm overcompensating by putting it over celebi, but I've been using it more recently and it's very good. It's really worth considering what set you want to use on this thing, and it's not always immediately obvious.


Physdef rachi is great but feels kinda feast or famine a lot of the time - when you're winning you're really winning, and when you're losing you're really losing. Can also 1v6 in situations that otherwise might be impossible. Sometimes you really have to hit two toxics in a row or you lose, and that sucks. Superrachi is awesome, astarachi doesn't feel great to me right now but it's still a good set of course. I think subcm is pretty OK in this meta, not incredible though. Haven't used wishcm in quite a while and don't have the inclination to change that.


Mixmence is good, but has trouble competing with gengar on most spikes teams and has trouble hitting hard on spikesless teams. However, it's pretty good "matchup insurance" in a way gengar isn't, so I understand why some builders use it more than I do. DDmence is good, but people are using more teams that are good against it now.


Speed control, hits hard, not too much to say.


I do not understand where mag haters are coming from. You see a mon that's very strong, not slow, has a great movepool, is reasonably versatile, not very frail aside from a couple bad weaknesses and dugtrio, and is even sand immune, and you think it's bad? Oh, it also traps skarmory. I'm not a huge fan of magdol but it works out sometimes. Skarmmag is good, and mag offense is good as well - if you don't think so, I really think you're building it or playing it wrong. Slapping 5 physical attackers with a magneton and hoping to win is dumb, but mix it up a bit and you can make some really nice fun teams. Plus, magneton's thunderbolts definitely paralyze more than 10% of the time, at least when my opponent is clicking them.


It's good, it spins, what more do you want. Shadow ball is nice to have, most of the time it'll just come up for other claydol but it's useful for some other things too. I don't like rest, even with aromabliss support - boom is just too valuable to drop, ever, in my opinion. Claydol's boom is very, very good by the way.

B

Jolly max attack max speed with megahorn, rock slide, either SD or sub, and the fighting move that goes with that, and this thing just picks apart slow and fast teams alike. Nothing like hitting the modest moltres that just switched into you with a rock slide to the dome. Sometimes (especially with focus punch) you can be put in a position where it should be an easy win, but now you have to hit a rock slide on like a 10% blissey or something. Other than that, really fun to use and threatening pokemon.


Defensive rest sets blow, but can get the job done and are really excellent in the endgame. Offensive cune is not bad at all, but feels more like "matchup coverage" than a consistent contributor to the team to me. Modest crocune is really good though, once it gets rolling it's almost impossible to stop.


I'm a certified defensive mie hater now, I feel like that thing never accomplishes anything. It can't take hits very well and normally its moves are extremely telegraphed. Offmie is good though, and doesn't (really) need hydro pump.


Spike, boom, there you go. Good speed and STAB surf set it apart from other spikers. Getting a one-time spin off can be very good on the right teams, but sometimes ice beam or even something like toxic is better.


Maybe the best mon to have sitting in the back at full health, but not great at coming into attacks under most circumstances. Probably shouldn't be doing worse than trading 1-for-1 against your opponent and very frequently does better, but being spikes fodder in the meantime hurts a lot.

C+:

Toxic jolteon is excellent for forcing blissey to leave the field at less than 100%, not something every special attacker can attest to. Volt absorb is great and so is cleaning up weakened teams with thunderbolts coming off of 110 base spatk and 394 speed.


I'm not a huge fan of beat up right now due to its poor interaction with twave bliss... lum berry zard maybe? It doesn't need the leftovers that badly, but it kinda does actually need them that badly. Subpunch is good if you're solid enough against mence to drop dragon claw or if you're running hp ice. Being really fast and having fire blast isn't half bad though.


DDpass is neat but I think people have caught on pretty decently now. I think smeargle's good, but I'm probably not bringing it with my tournament life on the line, if that makes sense.


Protox molt is nice, honestly I don't think molt is a great user of wow because rock slide still kills you from full a lot of the time and meta isn't ever staying in on you anyway. Tect also resolves one of molt's biggest issues, which is that teams it fits on commonly end up weak to aerodactyl. Tect molt + tect rachi do a good job against that.


I've been one of the biggest dug haters for a long time. Dug has next-to-no utility outside of trapping things, and it's not even great at that to be honest. The fact that even if your trapping sequence goes perfectly according to plan zapdug still has about a 10% chance to lose to blissey just doesn't sit right with me.


Not terrible, chipping zapdos is pretty easy and setting up on standard defensive pert is pretty good, but gyara really can't do everything it wants to all at once. Getting toxiced and losing to something that you thought you were supposed to beat really hurts him.


Used to be a hater but I've come around a bit. Sleep powder and leech seed are really annoying to switch around, and pretty much nothing beats slow defensive teams as well as venu. The problem is, some other mons do do that and are also better against other things than venu is. It has a unique kit though so worth checking out.

C:

I like hariyama but it feels really easy to overwhelm. Clicking brick break (if you're using cross chop you're insane or a gambling addict. Yama does not need nor want that) turn 1 vs tar is probably the best play almost all of the time - it's not like you can't knock skarm off a turn after it comes in, and if you're using yama you're probably prepared for the long game anyway.


Feels like it puts in a lot of work whenever I use it, but can be kinda tough to work into the rest of the team. Doesn't have that much of a defined defensive niche and it's really not as good vs heracross as you think it is/want it to be. Thief is really cool though.


Very fun to use. A lot of mons around this tier are too passive and get frequently lucked because of it and jynx is the exact opposite. Jynx's ice beams have a similar modifier to magneton's thunderbolts.


Has a lot of cool (lmao) qualities, but is very weak to status. You're probably either going to land a good twave or a good boom in each game, and sometimes that'll be good enough.


Really good mon aside from being very painfully walled by skarm. I know I'm really high on magneton, but anything that absolutely 100% needs skarm gone ASAP is just never going to be good. I like iron tail last as a way to ohko aero and deter gengar switchins.


Yeah he sucks. Forces really linear teambuilding and passive play, unless you're using forre offense, which to be fair is ok. Niche play on one style isn't enough to be a great mon in my book though.


Reverse trapping dugtrio is nice, but falls into a style of building I'm not really a fan of. It seems like p2 teams need the game to go a specific way in a pretty specific order in order to advance their gameplan.


I'll admit, I have very little experience using this on stall, which is where it's good. I don't like those teams, they don't mesh with how I like to play the game, so milo is a mon I'm going to underrate. Milo on offense can work and is annoying but feels very inconsistent.


Zapdug feels similar to p2 teams for me, in that they need something really specific to happen in order to win, and zapdug (or the superior gardug) feels like the only home for kingdra. Cool mon but not consistently good enough for my tastes.

 

[McMeghan]

The McRankings 2023 Pt.1​

Here are my VRs based on my SPL experience where I mostly tested with friends and then went on to play the Tour games. Less ladder play this time around. I will just mention my own preferences rather than stating the obvious.


Sand is sand. 4Atk Ttar is currently my favorite set for its breaking power + semi-check to half the tier (especially Special Attackers). PursuiTtar is as good as ever and enables Cool Sets. I also like the Sub sets, very good breaking power in this Skarm-Claydol infested era.


Mr.Consistency. The ADV cheatcode.


Astamatitos still hasn't answered to his crimes when he made Sing Blissey. Cleric and Sing are very strong. Not a fan without Spin though, easily pressured and taken advantage of.


Most customizable Pokémon in the tier with Tyranitar. I used to be lower on Gengar, but it's probably the Pokémon with the best toolkit to deceive your opponent/keep him on his toes all the time which is extremely valuable in tournament games. Clearly not my favorite Ladder mon though. SkarmGar has no unwinnable match-up.


The ideal Offense launcher/pivot. On the defensive side, RT Zap is also still very strong. RTZap + Skarm teams have been a tier warper since its debut.


Would have ranked it lower if it wasnt for Agility 3Atk being one of, if not the single best offensive punisher. All other sets are fine but not as meta warping at the Agility set to me at the moment. Not a fan of Defensive Meta at all anymore, I don't believe in Physical walls with a ground weakness.


P.much never a dead weight, there is a set for every team realistically. I've been liking Curse on offensive sets as it allows it to pressure both Blissey and Cune (vapicuno posted about it). Feels better (and needed) than ever in this Agility Meta era too. Annoyingly used by Skarm as a spikes bait though, unless you feel like relying on Hydro Pump.


Honestly when I build new teams, my main strategies are either revolving around Spikes, Stall, BP or Dugtrio. Dugtrio is just that guy. He makes teams work and funky sets function. Something I've been exploring is, rather than relying on Spikes to put Pokémon in Dug's range, to rely on status chip or Explosion. Boom + Dug and Sleep + Dug are broken and can generate insane advantages. Comes with its flaws though (useless vs Superman, Skam abuse).


MixMence Spikes can never go wrong. I fancy Rock Slide on it for Zapdos, and Hydro Pump for the fat nut on Claydol trying to pivot on it (bonus points for the OHKO on Zard/Aero and close on Molt). Intimidate makes every Physical Attackers of the tier outside of Metagross cry. Not as much of a fan of DD atm as I feel like Offenses have slightly adapted to its presence (and them having to deal with AgiMeta also makes them sturdier into Mence as a result).


The most splashable Pokémon in the tier. EQ-less + Dug sets are nice because it's pretty strong to fit Refresh+Boom in one set.


If you don't have Dug, you will always struggle vs one Jirachi set. It's annoying how prone to status Wish sets are though, and CM sets all have their issues (but also all have their 6-0 matchups). I'm a big big fan of Wish Jirachi + Claydol as they have excellent lasting power vs all Spikes structures (aka the bread and butter of ADV).


As reliable as ever.


Leech 3 Atk is very good early game check to a bit of everything with the tools to pressure the whole tier p.much. Not too high on the other sets.


The Rest sets kinda struggle against both sides of the spectrum (high octane offense and hard stall) but are very strong vs anything Balancey, which are always very popular. The offensive sets while better vs Offense, feel very matchuppy. Not the most consistent Pokémon in my eyes, but a real threat to bring to Tour games in particular.


Not much has changed for Forre to me in recent times. Consistent Pokémon but always a bit scared to bring it to tour games because Forretress teams are high maintenance, and it's too idealist to hope you'll control a game perfectly from start to finish against another good player. Ideally it's not spinning, but Forre+side Spinner teams always have some terrible matchups (for example Cune).


Think it's overhated. The big problem is that it struggles against the biggest forces of the tier (Ttar/Skarm/Gar and Meta/Dug to an extent) but you can often at least leverage a 1-1 trade against those teams. CurseRest Lax is a worthy matchup pick because it kinda autowins against some popular structures or people trying to cheat in the builder by not bringing the Top Guys.


Kinda same as Forry/Lax. Easily exploited but some teams featuring Milo can get easy wins against a lot of meta picks so it's worth using.


Don't rate it too much outside of Superman, but it's sick there. The usual.


If I'm not using Spikes, I'm often considering Sleep, and Breloom is one of the few good Pokémon for the job. Delaying the Spore, when affordable, can be extremely backbreaking for your opponent. It's also one of the biggest momentum reverser against an early DDTtar thanks to Mach Punch.


I rate it more than ever now that Ive realized it's the only counter to Fire mons that isnt affected by Spikes. Very good defensive niche (on top of WoW Pivot) alongside its wellknown offensive abilities.


Honestly often disappointed by this mon. I think Bulky Mie is way too pressured by all the Pokémons its supposed to deal with (both in the Spikes game Skarm/Gar/Forry/Pursuittar and as a defensive check Meta/Pert/Mence). I rarely feel confident with it compared to Claydol. Teams featuring Starmie + Pursuittar + Wish to secure the spikes game are very do-nothing. OffMie is somewhat cool but hard to feature imo because of its poor defensive utility. Still, a fast Spin + that immediate offensive power is pretty neat for some very aggro teams that want to clear the field only once or twice top.


Excellent breaker, but a bit too prediction reliant for my taste. Most Metagross packing Rock Slide also hurts its defensive utility.


Always tempting on paper, but I cant never be satisfied by Magneton teams because they struggle in one way or another against something important. Magneton + Spinner stays a good matchup pick in this tier for obvious reasons. Tried the SpDef set from HClat and was pleasantly surprised.


Quite solid for these mid-pacey balances. Kinda needs support to be the tool it aims to be against fat (spin/wish). These teams tend to struggle vs Special Offenses though. It's also a bit annoying how sometimes the opposing Tyranitar can decide fuck it I'm EQing on Knock and now suddenly your Hari is pressured before it reached an ideal target.


Nothing new to add here.


Placed it a tier lower because honestly it always deals with the same issues. Maybe should look into that Taunt 3 Atk set a certain someone has been using to good success on the ladder.


Same as ever too, see my previous VRs.


I'm higher on Ludicolo atm. Reason is simple: it's a good Swampert switch for those Meta/Dol/Skarm teams with a good mid-game thanks to Leech Seed and good late-game thanks to RD sweep. Still frail though and even pivoting into Meta hurts.


Tried it quite a bit during SPL and I never fell like I was using something truely worth the slot. Not sure where to go with it to feel more consistency than 1 spikes + 1 spin/1 boom.


RD Mon sweeps teams sometimes! Also a good lategame Pokemon to have vs AgiMeta.


Very solid in its usual archetypes. Nothing new to add though. These teams always have the same problems. I respect the fatter approachs with Wish Rachi.


Fast + Sleep + Ice Stab = good


Sleep + good early pivot into Zap/Pert. Annoying how Sub Zap is a thing, and so is Lum Ttar. I like Venu+Mag.


Has a toolkit to never be awful (raw stats, sand immunity, universaly good moves in TW/Counter/Boom). Hard to justify over Jirachi but it has its uses for sure.


I found myself surprisingly often trying Houndoom during SPL. The ability to compress Pursuit, Jirachi/Moltres/Celebi/Gengar check in one slot is very nice and it allows some unique combo to use. Too bad it's often wishing it had a 5th slot to hit a tier's key target and that it's so frail that unless you're switching into immunities, every hit hurts.


Nothing new to say here imo.


Tried those MDrag/ABRish Bold variants as lead and found them pretty nice. Can get the damage you need early on Ttar/Meta while being serviceable later.


Charizard but worse kinda. Recover Medicham has a weird defensive niche as a Tyranitar switch that I tried to use but wasn't satisfied with the results. My nuts dont hang low enough for this 'mon.


I never find myself wanting to build with it, but I reckon (for having lost to it) that it's a massive pain for Skarm/Meta/Dol/Ttar teams. Vap+Mag+Hera has an insane early game power.


Strong match-up pick to bust here or there to collect Ws vs Claydol fat.


Same as ever.


I like DD sets. Very strong Boom at +1, and can create a nice Sleep+Kill trade. That is without considering the BP/spikes sets. Janky Pokémon for obvious reasons.


Honestly solid but hard to justify in general over Meta/Lax/Pert (and lowkey Registeel). Find its value in some super offensive Boom centric teams.


Lol. Suicune is a good recipient by the way.


Your only phazer was Skarmory and you have no Intimidate/Suicune?

 

[baddummy]

Greetings all, after much effort I have finished my ADV rankings, they are as follows:

S rank: Metagame defining threats that are so good nothing else in the tier can hold a candle to all the qualities they offer.

Tyranitar: Not only hyper consistent but also irreplaceable. It has several unique qualities that are going to keep it at the top of VRs forever. Best pursuit user by a mile, excellent sweeper, excellent breaker with fantastic lure options etc. There will never be a metagame where Ttar is bad, you can simply switch up sets if your opponent always makes sure they are well-covered against DD, for example.

Skarmory: This is the best spike user in the tier by a lot, consequently, it deserves S. However, I can't put it at 1. The reason for this is that anti-spikes teams are necessarily anti-skarmory and therefore extraordinarily high Skarm usage will result in you encountering dedicated counter teams. Whereas TTar can completely change its responses Skarm doesn't have this luxury.

A+ rank: These pokemon are very consistent at their roles. My belief is that low usage of any of the S rank or A+ rank pokemon will get punished, and that is what separates them from the A rank below.

Blissey: This is simply the best special sponge in the tier, and has decent customisation options depending on what the team needs. If your Blissey usage is too low, that is getting exploited hard and consequently I've put it at the top of A+. Even has usable surprise options like Sing.

Metagross: Enables many different kinds of offensive strategies in the tier while also functioning as a decent check to a variety of metagame threats. The agility rock slide set is starting to see some traction, and it is certainly good. However, I'd advise against making dropping boom a habit - once your opponent figures out you don't have it they're going to be much less wary about sending their Swampert etc in.

Swampert: The best true rock resist in the tier, capable of sponging hits from a variety of metagame threats. While the tank sets can be quite passive and unappealing to some teams, Swampert can mix this up by running 4 attacks offensive or endpert to punch holes in things. The reason I have this higher than some others is because I firmly believe dropping Pert too often can get punished hard, and according to my own definition of A+ it fits right in.

Gengar: This is the best spinblocker by a long shot, and that unique property means you don't want to drop it too often - you don't want to let people spin blindly on a regular basis. Threatens Bliss despite being a special attacker and that keeps it firmly in the A+ ranks. If you want to keep your spikes and apply pressure while you're at it, Gengar is clearly the best mon for the job.

Zapdos: Wasn't sure whether to rank this in A or A+ but I've settled at the bottom of A+ because you do want some non-trappable eq immunes and zap dug teams have been very successful for a while now. Forces your opponent to play very carefully around it early on even if you don't actually have a dug in a way that most other leads just don't.

A rank: These pokemon are very good and highly consistent but not irreplaceable.

Salamence: The mixed set is clearly the best one but CB and DD both work, they require more support though. Good offensive and defensive merits while also taking advantage of spikes fantastically and being immune to them. But it doesn't run the metagame like the mons higher than it do, will always be towards the back of any sensible top 10 list though.

Jirachi: Huge variety in sets and coverage moves, Wish tect status vulnerability annoying but the sand immunity is great. CM sets are definitely its biggest plus and have enough variety in them that you likely won't be covered against all of them.

Celebi: An effective special sponge. Has a decent variety of sets it can use - I think all of CM BP, offensive leech, bulky leech all have their uses but I'm not the biggest fan of CM 3 attack. Perish song can tie up some loose ends on stall teams. Generally good at keeping up pressure with either leech spam or the threat of cm passes.

B rank: These pokemon are good, but they need support and require more thought.

Aerodactyl: Has some fluctuations in how good it is in the ADV meta so I've shown some caution and put it top of B rank. Right now it's in a particularly good spot but the A rank mons above it have remained more consistent throughout ADV's history. Even a shift as small as higher toxic usage on skarm can knock over the jenga tower making it look OP.

Dugtrio: The most unique mon in the tier, and go could go higher as it has a colossal number of extremely powerful applications - a well played dug team can end a game faster than any other. I've kept it out of the higher rankings because 1 spike layer can ruin the calcs you carefully EV'd for and no matter what, your opponent should have some punishing follow up.

Claydol: Best spinner, which is big, but the passivity can be annoying and the rest of your team will have to figure out how to work its way around that.

Suicune: I was thinking of ranking this higher but each set has some problems. Crocune and cm/surf/ice beam/toxic are definitely the better sets, but crocune can feel bad into very fast paced offensive teams. Toxic on the offensive set means you should punch some holes even if you do see a Blissey which is why I see it as the most consistent option.

Starmie: An excellent spinner with interesting properties, but unfortunately because of it taking damage from both sand and spikes I can't rank it higher - those stick and add up but spreading twaves around is very useful. Offensive set also good but because it requires more support to function by itself it wouldn't be higher than C.

C rank: Less consistent, but still good. This is the matchup pick tier, but none of them are hard fishes.

Charizard: An excellent tool to punish players too dependent on certain structures and doesn't require a great deal of support but can often require a good amount of prediction to use effectively. Current high Aero usage is not great for it however so I may rank this lower in future if this persists.

Moltres: Generally more threatening than Charizard once you set and keep spikes up, but requires more support. The lower speed stat is also really annoying, so I've kept it below Charizard for those reasons.

Milotic: In a metagame where Charizard and Moltres are both good picks, this also must necessarily be high up. Pretty much requires Claydol but there you go, has solid matchups and walls out a lot of very relevant threats. Just make sure you're only breaking out the fat teams it fits on occasionally rather than as a matter of habit.

Magneton: Not a complete flop if you don't find the Skarmory matchup when using this but definitely not ideal.

Flygon: Would've ranked this lower but people are using more Superman style teams where it fits right in. Defensive merits are better than its offensive merits.

Forretress: Often feels too passive and stalemate-y to feel enthusiastic about using but it offers strong role compression and doesn't let in bulky starmie for free over and over again. Also has a boom option that skarm doesn't have which prevents cringe opponent last mon situations.

Gyarados: I've ranked this fairly high because while it's more demanding in the support it needs, it has strong upsides. Turns most swampert sets into setup fodder which is very valuable for magneton offence and doesn't species clause you out of using mix or band mence like dd mence does. I'm not of the opinion that chip on Zapdos is that hard to come by, either.

Breloom: Reliably gets a sleep off but somewhat underwhelming after that. People are rightfully high on mix mence + spikes and consequently loom suffers. So I don't like the rest of the mon, but the fact that you can indeed rely on the sleep is what keeps it in C.


D rank: Good picks to catch your opponent off guard with, but have clear weaknesses that mean you won't want to bring them too often.

Heracross: I wouldn't recommend using this without magneton. I prefer sub salac but CB works well too. Has some amazing matchups but the times when it 6-0s are offset by the times it is dead weight.

Snorlax: I'm a Snorlax sceptic but not an outright hater. Having a sp def sponge that's spikes vulnerable, sand vulnerable, and burn vulnerable that has no reliable recovery is a yikes. So, it should be used more offensively and probably boom sooner rather than later.

Hariyama: Great option for winning out fat mirrors and thought about ranking this higher, but unfortunately the sand + spikes vulnerability without reliable recovery keep it out of the higher spots - has great merits but that's no small downside when you're likely going to be playing longer games when using this.

Venusaur: Another good sleeper. You'll likely want to pair this with spikes to keep the damage adding up with leech. Has some blowout matchups like facing off against milo fat teams, and leading it vs either Zap or TTar is favourable. So it nets some advantage early but can fall off later hard.

Cloyster: This is the hipster spiker option, as it doesn't get trapped by magneton and obviously claydol doesn't spin on it. However, some issues are that Starmie spins on it with extreme ease, and toxic skarm is more than happy to just toxic, spike trade and watch as cloyster dies while the opponent goes even with spikes and stays 1 mon up. The idea of getting spikes up early and booming is fantastic, but in practice you'll find you often have to make a very telegraphed boom early and it doesn't net what you want to. Nevertheless, I am thinking of moving this one up a few slots.

Jolteon: Switches in decent to any Zap move bar twave and threatens out relevant mons like Gengar Zap or mix Mence.

Porygon2: Punishes dug and walls out some other relevant threats but feels very exploitable.

Vaporeon: Sub pass still has its uses. I think anything defensive is likely outclassed by other water type walls in the tier though.

Raikou: While Zap dug teams are generally very strong right now Raikou struggles to fit in as you already have an offensive electric and would generally rather use something else.

Niche tier: Potentially viable but come with some major disadvantages.

Kingdra: This has high potential upsides and I'm actually prepared to move this up to bottom of D but really it's a lastmon that requires so much legwork.

The rest should be fairly self explanatory. Misdreavus has a use in enabling a superman stall team going around and while this is definitely a fish you have to respect it as an option.

2 descriptions I was missing have now been added and Breloom moved from top of D to bottom of C (mon order unchanged), and now that I've done those things I will be keeping this post as is.

 

[McMeghan]

Until vapi takes the time to do all the data analysis and makes the actual VRs, here is a little summary and some trivia about the upcoming update.

You can consult all the datas by clicking HERE.

explanations, informations

• The first post has been updated with the above ranking. Every Pokemon name redirect to its Smogon Analysis.
• Some Pokemons that got nommed were removed from the rankings for not receiving enough nominations.
• If there is some difference between the spreadsheet and vapicuno's rankings (which we use for the thread), it's because his program takes better care of the outliers and the number of nominations.
• The spreadsheet now includes the difference in ranking and average for every Pokemon compared to their previous VR result. Those can be seen on right of the document.

Trivia

• This time around, 4 people (among 22 voters) had the final Top 10 as theirs: Gacu, Caloom, Siglut and baddummy.
• The biggest outliers are as follow:
  • Top10 : airports' Blissey(14<>5, 9 spots difference),
  • Top20: BKC's Snorlax(35<>18, 17 spots difference),
  • Top50: Arctic's Jynx(62<>33, 29 spots difference).
• Four people didn't rank Tyranitaras their first: ABR, Jirachee, SEA and Arctic, preferring Skarmory twice, Metagross and Blissey respectively.
• Skarmorywas almost unanimously ranked second (15/22). The other second spots are: Tyranitar(3), Metagross(2), Zapdos(1) and Gengar(1).
• Make sure to check the difference in average score from last year to see see more behind some spot difference. For example Celebi didn't change a spot but almost has a +1 for its average score, showing that it is on an upward trend.

Comments on the update

Skarmory/ Swampert(+0.88/+0.66).

Technically not big rises, but both have gained a pretty significant average score despite already being ranked high. Skarmory is just the most consistent Pokémon in the tier with Tyranitar and if anything I expect it to get more first spot in the future than go down. As for Swampert, it's also one of the safest Pokémon to bring in the tier. I think it's more attractive than ever with Agility Meta being very popular and the Curse 4atk sets are extremely good to pressure Blissey/Cune in one move while keeping the offensive pressure up. Defensive Pert is very customizable to your teams' needs too.​

Blissey(+2.37)

Very big rise for a Pokémon already in the Top10. It's also quite customizable. Status makes it quite suffocating against offense, while full blown defensive teams love it as a Cleric. The CM sets can be quite devastating against Balancey teams especially with Dug support.​

Zapdos(-1.32)

Can't really explain that one personally as I find Zapdos still amazing. At the same time, it's not like it's ranked badly, just behind arguably the historically big 5 of ADV.​

Gengar/ Jirachi/ Suicune(-0.78/-1.06/-1.06)

All these special attackers were ranked worse. Of course, they're all more than just Special Attackers (if anything all of them are used more of their other sets). I don't think we saw many ZapDug Special Offense during the recent months, which is where you'd traditionally find all these Pokemons. This would also explain the downward trend on Zapdos above.​

Celebi/ Aerodactyl(+0.9/+1.1)

On the curb of the Top10, we find Celebi and Aerodactyl trending upward. I think Celebi's current 3atk LS set is rly changing's people opinions on it, as it has the full package to be useful defensively and offensively throughout the game. Aero on the other hand is the same as ever to me, and once again, you can make a link between Aero being favored and Special Offense being unfavored.​

Moltres/ Charizard(+2.24/+2.47)

The two Fire types of the tier keep rising. Fire stab is quite ubiquitous in the tier, especially with Spikes down. Charizard doesn't even need Spikes and is imo one of the face of Mixed Offense nowadays. Their uprising also justifies Aero's higher usage mentionned earlier.​

Snorlax(-2.36)

As a great player recently said, Snorlax is Actually Terrible in Gen 3, Here's Why.​

Hariyama(+4.89)

For the first time in a while, the Top28 Pokémons in the VR arent the 28 OU, because this time Hariyama found itself above Gyarados/Jolteon/Cloyster. I'm gonna shamelessly link my post from last year which imo was a good explanation of its consistency.​

Registeel(+12.37)

Riding the hype from its good showings in SPL, Registeel finds itself in better lights than ever. Is it just a fade or is it gonna see more usage? Time will tell, as I still find it hard to justify over its steely brethens in general.​

 

[vapicuno]

This year, I lack time to make a good writeup. Check the previous post for details on reading the plots. Data is in ADV_OU_VR_2023.zip , plots are in ADV OU VR 2023 Public.zip

S:
A:
B1:
B2:
B3:
C1:
C2:
D1:
D2:
E1:
E2:

Some plots

 

[McMeghan]

It's time for the second VR update of 2023 guys.

I've spent way too much time in the past inputting people's VRs into the sheet so it's gonna be different this time.

If you wish to submit a VR, you have to send me a PM (Smogon or Discord (airmure)). Should you meet the criteria to feature in the VRs, I will send you a Google Form that you will fill. That's pretty much it!

Here is a clear list of criteria for the VR submission, you must meet at least one of them to be part of the VR update:

• Made Top8 of ADV Cup
• Played in the most recent Callous Invitational (play-ins not included)
• Made Top6 in the last Seasonal or Championship
• Reached 1800 on the ladder in the last 6 months

Of course, feel free to post your VR on the forums, regardless of if you appear in the sheet or not.

Tiermaker link if you wanna post a nice tierlist

 

[Smurf.]

Kingdra is A tier god bless everyone for not preparing for it, even this washed up old man can still hit 1750

 

[vapicuno]

Sorry for the late response. Check the previous post for details on reading the plots. Information is attached to the post below

S1:
S2:
A1:
A2:
B:
C1:
C2:
D:
E1:
E2:
E3:
F:

Some plots

 

[H!kari]

Here's a tier list I made for fun as a relatively new player. I'm open to any criticism and can explain my thought process. Pokemon are ranked within each tier.

I think that everything ranked C and above are solid mons with utility on a variety of viable team structures. D rank is filled with mons that are viable in the tier but are either outclassed by something higher ranked or are limited to very specific team structures. The niche tier is for pokemon that are generally bad choices for the majority of teams, but fulfill roles that no other mon does or picks that can function well due to the surprise factor. The meme tier is for pokemon that are troll picks 99% of the time.

 

[Childflame]

Here's a tier list I made for fun as a relatively new player. I'm open to any criticism and can explain my thought process. Pokemon are ranked within each tier.

I think that everything ranked C and above are solid mons with utility on a variety of viable team structures. D rank is filled with mons that are viable in the tier but are either outclassed by something higher ranked or are limited to very specific team structures. The niche tier is for pokemon that are generally bad choices for the majority of teams, but fulfill roles that no other mon does or picks that can function well due to the surprise factor. The meme tier is for pokemon that are troll picks 99% of the time.


View attachment 591600

Charizard in B tier is just criminal

 

[strawberrysundae]

Charizard in B tier is just criminal

alright i'm agreeing with you on zard being criminally low, but I'd like to draw your attention to moltres in the same tier as misdreavus, marowak, houndoom, and weezing

a lot of other things just rub me the wrong way about this, namely gengar being behind like a dozen other pokemon, hariyama being weirdly high for a relatively niche pokemon, and slaking being right next to moltres itself

i'd def go spectate some tour games if you want an idea what makes moltres so ferocious, or watch bkc's moltres vid if you want a clearer and more concise answer H!kari

 

[Childflame]

alright i'm agreeing with you on zard being criminally low, but I'd like to draw your attention to moltres in the same tier as misdreavus, marowak, houndoom, and weezing

a lot of other things just rub me the wrong way about this, namely gengar being behind like a dozen other pokemon, hariyama being weirdly high for a relatively niche pokemon, and slaking being right next to moltres itself

i'd def go spectate some tour games if you want an idea what makes moltres so ferocious, or watch bkc's moltres vid if you want a clearer and more concise answer H!kari

You are speaking Facts but Moltres can’t do a damn thing to Mence if it doesn’t run Hp Ice but then it’s walled by Ttar and Swampert. At least Zard can run Hp Grass and not be halted buy Mence buy running Dragon Claw.

 

[Siglut]

Moltres can’t do a damn thing to Mence

Will o wisp? Even toxic?
Anyway, why is zard the weirdest thing about that list? Imo, it's only ranked behind about 5 mons I think it's better than.
Re: H!kari, I respect that you're trying to express your thoughts as a new player and I think that can be a good way to improve and think more deeply about the tier. However, just posting a list of mons in order doesn't show anyone what you're really thinking. It would be a more interesting read, and probably more useful for you, if you go through and talk about each mon and why you think it's better or worse than its peers. Even something like Redless's post above, which goes into generalities rather than specifics, is a lot more interesting than just a big list of sprites.

 

[JoJ]

Raikou's placement surprises me. Is it just outclassed so thoroughly as a cm sweeper by suicune? Even still with cm + bolt + hpgrass/ice and high speed it seems like it would be a very powerful cleaner.

 

[dk]

Raikou's placement surprises me. Is it just outclassed so thoroughly as a cm sweeper by suicune? Even still with cm + bolt + hpgrass/ice and high speed it seems like it would be a very powerful cleaner.

as is true to real life, the giant tiger's mortal enemy is a pack of precisely three small moles

if you want to gameplan around lategame raikou you have to account for this massive dugtrio weakness somehow. you can simply use p2 to countertrap dug after it dugs something that's not raikou, or you could try countertrapping dug with your own dug by baiting their dug into locking into anything but earthquake---ie you include heracross or celebi and hope they trap either with aerial ace/hp bug respectively (i guess you could use loom as well) and then revenge kill their non-eq locked dug with your own. the specifics raikou requires in terms of teambuilding pushes it towards the fringes of the metagame is the tl;dr; it just blows having such a glaring weakness to dugtrio

as an aside raikou as a lead picked up some interest awhile ago, which is an alternative use in place of the standard cm approaches


dog1 (Raikou) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

you'll still want to gameplan around punishing early dug traps though

 

[JoJ]

as is true to real life, the giant tiger's mortal enemy is a pack of precisely three small moles

if you want to gameplan around lategame raikou you have to account for this massive dugtrio weakness somehow. you can simply use p2 to countertrap dug after it dugs something that's not raikou, or you could try countertrapping dug with your own dug by baiting their dug into locking into anything but earthquake---ie you include heracross or celebi and hope they trap either with aerial ace/hp bug respectively (i guess you could use loom as well) and then revenge kill their non-eq locked dug with your own. the specifics raikou requires in terms of teambuilding pushes it towards the fringes of the metagame is the tl;dr; it just blows having such a glaring weakness to dugtrio

as an aside raikou as a lead picked up some interest awhile ago, which is an alternative use in place of the standard cm approaches


dog1 (Raikou) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

you'll still want to gameplan around punishing early dug traps though

thanks for the explanation, that does seem like a lot of effort for a cleaner when more reliable choices exist. Seems like it could be strong in tournament against opponents you know aren't likely to bring dug, but that could be said of many mons.

 

[H!kari]

Re: H!kari, I respect that you're trying to express your thoughts as a new player and I think that can be a good way to improve and think more deeply about the tier. However, just posting a list of mons in order doesn't show anyone what you're really thinking. It would be a more interesting read, and probably more useful for you, if you go through and talk about each mon and why you think it's better or worse than its peers. Even something like Redless's post above, which goes into generalities rather than specifics, is a lot more interesting than just a big list of sprites.

S+ Tier explinations:

Skarmory: is hands down the best pokemon in the tier. Its defensive capabilities are unparalleled with the fantastic steel/flying typing taking either resisted or neutral damage from all physical types and providing TSS immunity. The amount of safe entry points Skarmory has in most games is massive and thanks to its sandstorm immunity + protect it can use those entry points to chip heal significant amounts of hp. But skarmory isn't just using its easy entry points to chip health, its also using one of the most meta defining moves available, spikes. The entire Superman team structure was created because of how devasting spikes can be. They are an omnipresent consideration in the builder and Skarmory is the most consistent and flexible spikes setter in the tier. Skarmory can be put on almost any team structure with spikes and any combination of toxic, taunt, drill peck, protect, and whirlwind depending on what the team needs team and succeed.

Blissey: is a close second behind Skarmory in my eyes due to its ability to blank nearly every special attack in the tier and its huge set diversity. Many of OU's best mons (Skarmory, Tyranitar, Swampert, Metagross, Salamance, Jirachi, celebi, etc) have glaring weaknesses to one or more special types. Blissey nearly single handedly allows team structures made up of multiple of these pokemon with overlapping special weaknesses to be viable. The only other pokemon that can blanket wall all types of special attacks in the tier is Snorlax who lacks consistent recover and doesn't have half of Blissey's versatility. Blissey can run BoltBeam coverage to chip or threaten many of the pokemon that it walls (and fish for freezes because of its obscene bulk), it can run seismic toss or calm mind to handle threating calm mind sweepers like Suicune or Jirachi, or it can spread statuses with t-wave and toxic to punish physical attackers on the switch in. Because the only move Blissey needs to wall half the tier is solf-boiled it can customize its set to cover a lot of weaknesses any team might have and keep your opponents guessing on what its going to do next. Sing, flamethrower, hp grass, wish, heal bell, substitute and counter are all viable. No other pokemon in the tier matches Blissey's set diversity meaning that like Skarmory, Blissey often sacrifices minimal momentum when it comes in to take a hit.


In my opinion the pinnacle of OU play and the best defensive core in the tier is SkarmBliss. The only other pokemon that come close to their power level is Tyranitar because of two words, sand stream, and Swampert. In my mind Pert earns its s-tier placement for the same reasons as Skarm and Bliss. Its wide set diversity and its incredible offensive and defensive profile. Pert walls many of the most threatening physical attackers in the tier just by existing. Tar, Aero, Meta and Mence all struggle to deal with Pert unless their running mixed hp grass sets, while Pert can threaten all of them back with a combination of stab surf and earthquake + ice beam. Its sand immunity allows it to switch in on these threats more times than any other physical wall besides Skarm can as leftovers + protect can heal off spikes damage. In terms of set diversity, Pert only really requires surf and protect giving it flexibility to run different combinations of coverage moves or utility moves like toxic, roar, and refresh. Pert is also the best sub + Salac/Petaya sweeper because of its sand immunity, the strength of torrent surf/hydro pump, and endeavor allowing it to cheese many match-ups Pert shouldn't otherwise win. Pert can also use curse and focus punch to abuse the free turns it often creates by walling physical attackers and break through teams. The only major downside Pert has is its weakness to hp grass which is prolific in the tier thanks to itself and Tar, but protect allows you to scout for it in most situations.

 

[Redless]

As with my previous post, these are my views and they should be taken with a grain of salt.

Thoughts:
1. Suittar is one of the best tars. I think it's the best ttar without dragon dance.
2. Celebi is the best offensive special check by a lot. It harms Skarmory, 1v1s Zapdos, beats Blissey, and blasts through every water. On top of this, all the stuff I want sand stream for defensively, such as Suicune and Snorlax, Celebi also takes care of with leech seed. This enables Celebi to function very effectively on slow teams that want their walls to heal with leftovers or otherwise can't fit tar. It's also an amazing Gengar switchin. The other grass types (the ones with sleep) are said to beat stall, but I think Cele is even better at beating stall, with a certain forbidden set. I am very close to putting this above Metagross.
3. Rorozap is an extremely potent matchup fish that I see used very rarely, except by Roro. Others would do well to put it into their toolkit.
4. Blissey is impossible to kill, but it gives away many free turns, and even worse, it doesn't adequately handle most of the special attackers that are actually good (granted, their ability to beat Blissey is a big part of what makes them good). On the other hand, Blissey was blessed with Wish and Calm Mind, both of which are overpowered.
5. I used to view Flygon as a necessary evil for omitting spin on slower spikes teams, but I now see that it's an attraction in its own right because of its ability to flummox Swampert overload strategies -- I'm talking HP grass, stacking boom Meta + physicals, and repeated spikes chip. I think there's a wide variety of strong supermans, from fast to mid speed to slow.
6. My current view on Gyarados (and to a lesser extent Hera) is that back in 2004-2021 everyone was obsessed with running physical offense, even if it killed them. They were surrounded by styles that were favored vs Swampert but they were so obsessed with making phys off work that they started inventing weirdo trickshot technology to allow them to beat Swampert convincingly while still running the style that they loved. Somehow, Gyarados rode this wave into the overused tier. In 2022+, I consider Gyarados (when played properly) a niche 20% usage mon on a niche 10% usage style. I believe that equates to 2% usage, below the OU threshhold. These are numbers I made up in my head btw, so don't take them that seriously.
7. I have Kingdra over Ludicolo simply because I think the best weather clear payoff (and maybe the best set in general?) is subroar Suicune, and Kingdra is much better at enabling subroar Suicune because it covers the ddmence matchup, enabling subcune to drop its ice coverage. On the other hand, I believe we're on the verge of a Ludicolo renaissance, and I for one cannot wait. It's the same typing that I imagine Jesus would have, if He were a Pokemon.
8. The beauty of Missy is that it walls a weird variety of things. I'm talking like pert, certain laxes, Gengar (sometimes). And it still has its blowout potential vs slow Dol/Mie.
9. Registeel is by far the best Regi in terms of winning. It fits on the most teams, it does the most things on the teams it does fit on, and it's the best in every way. But 2/3 of Registeel's teams that are good at winning would do better with one of its competitors in its place, and the remaining 1/3 would do OK with one of its competitors in its place. On the other hand, Regice is extremely niche and it sucks and has few teams that are good at winning. The strong teams it does have, however, would look very different, or not exist at all, if they couldn't run Regice. The fact that I placed Ice over Steel is reflective of the fact that I think a viability ranking should rate Pokemon based on how hard they are to never use, rather than how easy they are to use often.
10. Regirock would do better if its users stopped running it on shit teams. Its most useful traits are providing a zap/fire check and allowing you to boom on ground types (I'm talking like Dol and Gon) which its competitor and perennial teammate Metagross is unable to do.
11. Yama: it's like Registeel. It's viable, it's strong, and it's outclassed left and right by other stuff. Yama's claim to fame is its amazing stall matchup in 1 Pokemon. So far in this VR I mentioned a certain Celebi, rorozap, subroar cune, and missy. And all these Pokemon also have insane stall matchups in one Pokemon, yet they also provide ambiguity in team structure, defensive utility, and other things that Yama is relatively bad at. There are other 1 mon stall killers I didn't mention, and there are even more potent ways to destroy stall on a structural level with more than 1 Pokemon. Given it has this competition, why choose Yama? Btw, are you even sure Yama itself beats stall that badly? I mean Yama famously "mandates" wish/spin which already gives you a nice stall mu even if Yama was absent.
12. I feel there's a negative pattern in this tier. The pattern is that people pick up a team/style with a wacky, strong, polarizing MU spread, then they decide to minimize the team's weaknesses instead of exacerbating its strengths, and they add a weird shitmon that does nothing for the team offensively but patches a certain defensive hole. P2 epitomizes this perfectly.