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OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter vapicuno
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For sure a Toury, to try them out would probably be really helpful to gauge them.
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Roar
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
330 speed (faster than timid zap, etc.) not gonna fill in the other sets. the skarm has spikes though. latias helps against suicune notably, similar to something like moltres in this slot. Ttar maybe special or 4 attacks physical leftovers, swampert standard, gengar some defensive wisp set.
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Recover
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Ice Beam
Now it can hit steel types? I don't know, this is alternative coverage. Bit of a faster paced sand spikes build. This ttar might be dd, Gengar might be 3 attacks boom here, swampert maybe offensive or even endpert. HP grass/giga Gengar and HP grass jolteon will make this Latias more dangerous, maybe even DDgrass tar. Latias having a bit more bulk is nice here. Metagross>Swampert could work too I think.
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ADV Latias post time :)
Unlike the elusive Mew, the female member of the Eon Duo is much more defined in its playstyle, although she still brings some versatility to the table. Let me begin this post by reminding everyone that Latias’s Soul Dew would likely remain banned, similar to every other Generation before the item’s nerf in Gen 7. It’s just too powerful of a held item that completely changes how the Eon Duo is played.
Now that the obvious is out of the way, let’s talk about something a lot of people might not have known about. I certainly didn’t until a while back. As it turns out, Latias actually has been retested in OU already... kind of. I can’t remember when the format was available off the top of my head, but if you go into the usage stats of Pokémon Showdown’s monthly data, buried deep within the depth of time is a format labeled “gen3oulatias”, which should speak for itself. To the surprise of absolutely no one, this limited time format didn’t see too much high level action compared to standard OU. Now here’s where things get really interesting.
Stat wise, Latias is a fantastic fit for the ADV metagame. Base 110 is an incredible speed tier in Gen 3, and both of her STABs come off of her higher Special Attack, which while lower than Latios is still quite solid. Her extra defensive base stats allow her to take hits Latios can’t, and to top it all off, Levitate is an extremely good ability in Gen 3, turning the omnipresent Spikes and Dugtrio’s Arena Trap into a nonexistent issue for our friend Latias. So I was absolutely shocked to find that in a format with only a couple hundred battles per month logged if that, Latias had peaked at around 80% usage- with Soul Dew unbanned, I might add.
80%. With Soul Dew and a perfectly optimal metagame to fit into, with winning matchups against over half of the ADV roster, no other Ubers to compete with, and assistance from Magneton for Steel trapping. That’s absolutely insane. Latias had every reason to be one of those limited-time format Pokémon to get 100% usage, or at the very least close to it. That statistic really got me thinking.
(Part 2 of this post coming later)
Unlike the elusive Mew, the female member of the Eon Duo is much more defined in its playstyle, although she still brings some versatility to the table. Let me begin this post by reminding everyone that Latias’s Soul Dew would likely remain banned, similar to every other Generation before the item’s nerf in Gen 7. It’s just too powerful of a held item that completely changes how the Eon Duo is played.
Now that the obvious is out of the way, let’s talk about something a lot of people might not have known about. I certainly didn’t until a while back. As it turns out, Latias actually has been retested in OU already... kind of. I can’t remember when the format was available off the top of my head, but if you go into the usage stats of Pokémon Showdown’s monthly data, buried deep within the depth of time is a format labeled “gen3oulatias”, which should speak for itself. To the surprise of absolutely no one, this limited time format didn’t see too much high level action compared to standard OU. Now here’s where things get really interesting.
Stat wise, Latias is a fantastic fit for the ADV metagame. Base 110 is an incredible speed tier in Gen 3, and both of her STABs come off of her higher Special Attack, which while lower than Latios is still quite solid. Her extra defensive base stats allow her to take hits Latios can’t, and to top it all off, Levitate is an extremely good ability in Gen 3, turning the omnipresent Spikes and Dugtrio’s Arena Trap into a nonexistent issue for our friend Latias. So I was absolutely shocked to find that in a format with only a couple hundred battles per month logged if that, Latias had peaked at around 80% usage- with Soul Dew unbanned, I might add.
80%. With Soul Dew and a perfectly optimal metagame to fit into, with winning matchups against over half of the ADV roster, no other Ubers to compete with, and assistance from Magneton for Steel trapping. That’s absolutely insane. Latias had every reason to be one of those limited-time format Pokémon to get 100% usage, or at the very least close to it. That statistic really got me thinking.
(Part 2 of this post coming later)
We had a discussion on Discord today about the best users of Sleep Talk, where do you guys stand on the matter?
As for myself, I think the best Sleep Talkers are Pokemons that can switch into sleepers to begin with, ideally Breloom as it's the Pokemon you're sure is gonna use a Sleep move, and you don't wanna die off a missprediction. Switching into Venusaur is a plus but usually if you can do Loom, you can do Venu. Jynx is a lot harder I'd say and Gengar is also more dangerous to predict because you can't really know if it has Hypno and if it's gonna lands it.
I also believe an ideal Sleep Talker has multiple moves that are good in most situations to land. For example, while Crocune is a good Sleep Talker user for itself, it's not a good sleep absorber I'd say, as vs Offense, Suicune isn't too much of a threat with a 1/3 chance of pulling an offensive move and being outsped by many Pokemons.
The ones I've tested the most and liked were Heracross and Zapdos. Heracross has a good typing vs Loom/Venu/Blissey, gets a Guts boost, and cannot pick FP off Sleep Talk, which means you always pick one of Megahorn/Rock Slide, which kinda encapsulates everything (and Guts Megahorn hits hard most resists anyway). Zapdos also comes into Breloom/Venusaur pretty safely and can get three consistent rolls between Tbolt/HP/Roar while still pulling its weight consistently with these three moves alone.
Two Pokemons I've entertained to be good with Sleep Talkers but haven't tried yet are Moltres and Salamence. I've tried Metagross, which works quite well honestly but you'll have games where you Sleep Talk Boom and the opponent's sleepers hasn't been picked off so you're back to square 1.
As for myself, I think the best Sleep Talkers are Pokemons that can switch into sleepers to begin with, ideally Breloom as it's the Pokemon you're sure is gonna use a Sleep move, and you don't wanna die off a missprediction. Switching into Venusaur is a plus but usually if you can do Loom, you can do Venu. Jynx is a lot harder I'd say and Gengar is also more dangerous to predict because you can't really know if it has Hypno and if it's gonna lands it.
I also believe an ideal Sleep Talker has multiple moves that are good in most situations to land. For example, while Crocune is a good Sleep Talker user for itself, it's not a good sleep absorber I'd say, as vs Offense, Suicune isn't too much of a threat with a 1/3 chance of pulling an offensive move and being outsped by many Pokemons.
The ones I've tested the most and liked were Heracross and Zapdos. Heracross has a good typing vs Loom/Venu/Blissey, gets a Guts boost, and cannot pick FP off Sleep Talk, which means you always pick one of Megahorn/Rock Slide, which kinda encapsulates everything (and Guts Megahorn hits hard most resists anyway). Zapdos also comes into Breloom/Venusaur pretty safely and can get three consistent rolls between Tbolt/HP/Roar while still pulling its weight consistently with these three moves alone.
Two Pokemons I've entertained to be good with Sleep Talkers but haven't tried yet are Moltres and Salamence. I've tried Metagross, which works quite well honestly but you'll have games where you Sleep Talk Boom and the opponent's sleepers hasn't been picked off so you're back to square 1.
Honestly, one I really like that is hard to fit is Articuno. Ice Beam, Roar, Sleep Talk and Rest. Walls Jynx, Smacks Breloom. Gengar can TB for heavy damage yes but Ice beam back is pretty nice. I been having a hard time trying to fit it on a team though. Really wanna make a good Cuno Team. But Its x4 Rock Weakness is really brutal. Of course, a stray Fighting move from Breloom to Cuno hurts but it nos death. So ye, I like Articuno. Hard to build with would love advice but I think its a good sleep absorber for Jynx, Breloom, Vensaur at least with losing match up to Gengar.
Latias does have refresh so one possible set is recover/refresh/roar/dragon claw, working as a shuffler on heavy spikes teams similar to something like zapdos, sacrificing some spat for better special bulk, instant recovery, and versatility
yo, i built a lot of shit for ci but im allergic to winning in this tier and i should probably stay away from playing it... but i really love the meta and the community and wanna see it evolve in general so dropping some of what i've made(about 80% of it actually tested), may serve as inspiration for people(lots of unopmitized ev's watch out):
https://pastebin.com/raw/KQu0ETti
https://pastebin.com/raw/KQu0ETti
A little while ago I built a Physical Offence team with a Choice Band Gyarados, and figured that Sleep Talk is a good 4th move as Gyarados can check Breloom quite effectively and actually become a status absorber from coming in to take a Spore:
Gyarados @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Double-Edge
- Sleep Talk
I can see this being similar to running Sleep Talk Salamence, but since the team already had Mence fulfilling a DD sweeping set I figured that Gyarados could get some surprise extra damage onto the likes of Zapdos, Aerodactyls and Suicunes being used to check it.
Gyarados doesn't have a huge amount of options for a 4th move on a Choice Band set anyway, but it does fit rather well all things considered.
Hello! What benefits does running Ludicolo over Kingdra on Rain offense have? (It's HP Grass doesn't even 2HKO Milotic/Suicune/Vaporeon)
I'm of the Personal Opinion of running 2 Rain Sweepers on a rain Team. That being said if we are choosing between one or the other, Ludicolo stab grass can kill pert easy without risking hydro. Generally, I think Kingdra is just the best option though with is typing and stats.
I thought I played it pretty well
Seconded.
Unfortunately as this hasn't been an issue in tours yet the powers that be will not see it as an issue. It's a massive shame as the bulk of the playerbase are ladderers and not high end tour players.
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 301-355 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 301-355 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Love this mon.
I've seen a lot of Forretress slander recently so I'm gonna try to make a post explaining how I make it work if people wanna try it for themselves, because I believe the Ball is still viable.
So obviously the main trait of Forretress is being a Spikes user that is immune to Sand, which gives it longetivity. Then you have to ask yourself, why would I use Forretress when I can use Skarmory, which is a lot more flexible because it doesn't die to every Fire move, and it is immune to Spikes which means it makes better use of Leftovers recovery.
The first and most obvious thing that comes to mind is: "Forretress is very good into other Skarmory thanks to Spin, especially ProTox on which you sit on forever." You'd be right, but if it was that easy, Forretress would be more popular.
Why Forretress "sucks"
- Forretress doesn't work like Skarmory
You cannot use Forretress like Skarmory. Every damage Forretress takes may stick, because it is grounded unlike Skarmory, that's the first big thing you have to understand. Which means that it's harder to get more than one Spikes, and it is also harder to get Spikes back if your opponent spins in the meantime, unlike a Skarmory which can pivot into ground moves, or comes on Claydol all day to replenish its health with Leftovers (or Forry itself).
- Forretress is an awkward Spinner
We did mention earlier that Forretress dream match-up is facing ProTox Skarm without a Ghost type, because then you completely blank the Skarm and its spikes all day. And while yes, it will happen once in a while, no it won't be a common occurence. A lot of Skarmory run Drill Peck and will actually pressure the Forretress until they find an opening to get one spikes up, which allows them to pressure any Forry team, and makes it harder for Forry to spin later. Add to that working around a potential back Gengar, Forretress being slower than most Pokemon in general and getting weakened in the process and you quickly understand while using Forre that damn, that Pokemon is a bad spinner, and it has to Spikes too???
- Skarmory can still dominate you
One big problem of common Forry sets, which people believe to be Spikes/Spin +2 of HPBug/Earthquake/Counter/Explosion is that they don't damage Skarmory at all. We already mentionned why DP Skarmory is an issue in the previous paragraph but one problem is that Skarmory is actually free heal on Forretress. Unless you're facing the teams that run ProTox without a Ghost or any Wallbreaker, the standstill is often bad for the Forry user, as either Skarm eventually beats you down with DP, or use Skarm into Wallbreaker to abuse Forretress and create openings (unless your Forry team magically hardwalls the Skarm team, which rarely happens.
Why use Forretress then?
While most people would think it's because it Spins, Forretress two other benefits is a more direct offensive presence through Boom, and the ability to directly threaten and weaken Spinners (Starmie
& Claydol
) thanks to a stabbed HP Bug. Another benefit is that Forretress isn't removed as easily by Magneton, as Modest MaxSpa only kills 30% of the time, while you can kill back with Counter/EQ).
How to circumvent the aforementionned issues
- Use Forretress cautiously
If you wanna make good use of Forretress, you will want to click more than Spikes once throughout the game. But like we said earlier, Forretress is slow, and takes Spikes damage, which means a Forretress belows ~40% become extremely hard to get use of. Only use Spikes once against Pokémons that can't bring you down and then leave the field to control the situation. Pokémons that will let you accomplish this are Swampert, Blissey, Zapdos
, Metagross
, Skarmory, Claydol, Suicune
, Milotic
, etc. You should ideally pivot Forretress on a weak move (for example Pert IB) so you don't take a Stabbed hit as you switch and then another as you spikes. Also avoid status if possible, just like you'd do with Skarmory, except it's even worse with Forretress.
- Give Forretress the right support
While most people know that one obvious support of Forretress is a Pursuit Pokémon for Gengar, they only think of helping it Spin. I'd say that Forretress actually crucially relies on Wish to work effectively, if not a side Spin or Leech Seed. Forretress needs help to get back to shape and continuously Spikes (and Spin?) throughout the game.
We've talked earlier that DP Skarmory may beat you down, so let's reverse the situation:
A Forretress team should think about making use of either its ability to directly combat Spinners, or its role compression as a Spiker/Spinner. Those teams will usually have a strong defensive presence to take advantage of Forry's strenghts. I suspect more Offensive Forretress teams are possible, in which case you could want to use HP Ghost Forretress to effectively weaken Gengar yourself, Boom to target Claydol/Starmie and even Speed EVs to get clutch Spins/Booms on a lot of Pokémons hanging betweene 136 and 180 speed. I suggest you still use max SpDef on those sets to tank about any non-Fire move.
Core Examples
Wish Rachi heals Forry and Dol. Dol spins for Forry, enabling you to use more offensive coverage, Milotic covers Mixed attackers alongside Jirachi. Milotic and Jirachi appreciate Spikes & Spin to work efficiently.
Same as above but with Celebi for Leech Seed and better Suicune answer than Milotic.
Same as above but with SpDef Zap to handle Mixed Attackers with better and aggressively use Spikes.
Note: Even if you have Claydol, Pursuit Tyranitar is still encouraged on those cores to really lock down every hazards match-up.
Suit Ttar + HP Fire Forretress can outlast all Skarmory, including partership with Claydol or Gengar. SpDef Zapdos handles some setuppers and mixed attackers while making use of Spikes.
Tyranitar Pursuits Gengar for Forry & Hariyama. Hariyama removes Skarmory Leftovers which allows Spin Forre to beat it longterm.
Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1515771692-ug488rzjjm62qwg0obck3r0tjvemyswpw
Forry gets one Spikes and Spin while Zapdos/Pert handles set-uppers, DDMence finishes the job.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-537192
Forry actively trades with an early Meta. Dying isn't an issue even with a back Skarmory thanks to Jira+Dol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-538642
Dream Forry match-up where the field is entirely controlled against another Fat team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-551783
FireForry prevents Skarmory from healing and becoming an issue again in the late game, only limiting it to one Spikes.
So obviously the main trait of Forretress is being a Spikes user that is immune to Sand, which gives it longetivity. Then you have to ask yourself, why would I use Forretress when I can use Skarmory, which is a lot more flexible because it doesn't die to every Fire move, and it is immune to Spikes which means it makes better use of Leftovers recovery.
The first and most obvious thing that comes to mind is: "Forretress is very good into other Skarmory thanks to Spin, especially ProTox on which you sit on forever." You'd be right, but if it was that easy, Forretress would be more popular.
Why Forretress "sucks"
- Forretress doesn't work like Skarmory
You cannot use Forretress like Skarmory. Every damage Forretress takes may stick, because it is grounded unlike Skarmory, that's the first big thing you have to understand. Which means that it's harder to get more than one Spikes, and it is also harder to get Spikes back if your opponent spins in the meantime, unlike a Skarmory which can pivot into ground moves, or comes on Claydol all day to replenish its health with Leftovers (or Forry itself).
- Forretress is an awkward Spinner
We did mention earlier that Forretress dream match-up is facing ProTox Skarm without a Ghost type, because then you completely blank the Skarm and its spikes all day. And while yes, it will happen once in a while, no it won't be a common occurence. A lot of Skarmory run Drill Peck and will actually pressure the Forretress until they find an opening to get one spikes up, which allows them to pressure any Forry team, and makes it harder for Forry to spin later. Add to that working around a potential back Gengar
, Forretress being slower than most Pokemon in general and getting weakened in the process and you quickly understand while using Forre that damn, that Pokemon is a bad spinner, and it has to Spikes too???- Skarmory can still dominate you
One big problem of common Forry sets, which people believe to be Spikes/Spin +2 of HPBug/Earthquake/Counter/Explosion is that they don't damage Skarmory at all. We already mentionned why DP Skarmory is an issue in the previous paragraph but one problem is that Skarmory is actually free heal on Forretress. Unless you're facing the teams that run ProTox without a Ghost or any Wallbreaker, the standstill is often bad for the Forry user, as either Skarm eventually beats you down with DP, or use Skarm into Wallbreaker to abuse Forretress and create openings (unless your Forry team magically hardwalls the Skarm team, which rarely happens.
Why use Forretress then?
While most people would think it's because it Spins, Forretress two other benefits is a more direct offensive presence through Boom, and the ability to directly threaten and weaken Spinners (Starmie
& Claydol) thanks to a stabbed HP Bug. Another benefit is that Forretress isn't removed as easily by Magneton, as Modest MaxSpa only kills 30% of the time, while you can kill back with Counter/EQ).How to circumvent the aforementionned issues
- Use Forretress cautiously
If you wanna make good use of Forretress, you will want to click more than Spikes once throughout the game. But like we said earlier, Forretress is slow, and takes Spikes damage, which means a Forretress belows ~40% become extremely hard to get use of. Only use Spikes once against Pokémons that can't bring you down and then leave the field to control the situation. Pokémons that will let you accomplish this are Swampert
, Blissey, Zapdos, Metagross, Skarmory, Claydol, Suicune, Milotic, etc. You should ideally pivot Forretress on a weak move (for example Pert IB) so you don't take a Stabbed hit as you switch and then another as you spikes. Also avoid status if possible, just like you'd do with Skarmory, except it's even worse with Forretress.- Give Forretress the right support
While most people know that one obvious support of Forretress is a Pursuit Pokémon for Gengar, they only think of helping it Spin. I'd say that Forretress actually crucially relies on Wish to work effectively, if not a side Spin or Leech Seed. Forretress needs help to get back to shape and continuously Spikes (and Spin?) throughout the game.
- Wish: Wish allows you to switch Forretress back in the game and get more Spikes or Spin more effectively. I strongly recommend Jirachi and Bliss partnership as they're the best suited to keep the Ball afloat.
- Rapid Spin: One of the shortcoming of Forretress is being pretty hard to use if Spikes get up, how about you use a more reliable Spinner then? Claydol in particular will allow you to clear the field throughout the game, giving Forretress an easier time coming in and out, including with Wishes. You may also make better use of Forry's Lefties by doubling in and out. Finally, not using Rapid Spin on a Forretress frees another offensive moveslot to target even more Pokémons.
- Pursuit: If you're spinning with Forretress, this one is obvious as you will want to remove or severely weaken Gengar. Tyranitar is your best guy, but technically Umbreon
can fit Forry teams quite well. - Phazer or FastMon: unlike Skarmory, Forretress doesn't have a built-in phazing move, and while Boom will do the trick in some situations to prevent a set-upper abusing you, if you wanna keep Forretress around, make sure to pack a Phazer like Swampert or Zapdos, or a fastmon like Aero or MixMence to prevent any abuse from your opponent.
- Leech Seed: Leech Seed can passively heal and create situations where your opponent is forced to swich, use those at your advantage to heal Forry either through Seed or Leftovers from the free switch.
We've talked earlier that DP Skarmory may beat you down, so let's reverse the situation:
- HP Fire: HP Fire allows you weaken Skarmory as it tries to wear you down. You're now also doing the same thing. It can also finish off a Gengar after it takes a Pursuit from your Tyranitar. You're now lacking a good damaging move into Starmie/Claydol so keep it in mind! For that matter, you should avoid Forretress that cannot touch Gengar at all, as those are often EVd to tank Pursuit from Tyranit and WILL be a pain even at 8% if your Forretress can't finish them off.
- Zap Cannon: Zap Cannon, even with its shit accuracy, allows you effectively threaten Skarmory and Gengar from fucking with you. A Paralyzed Skarmory is immense for the Forry match-up, and it will give you breathing room to Spin/Spikes/heal from Leftovers. It also discourages Gengar from mindlessly coming in.
- Knock Off or Thief: pairing Forretress with a Pokemon that can remove Skarmory's Leftovers means that your HP Bug, Rapid Spin and Counter (into DP) now actually kill the Skarmory and give you the upperhand longterm.
A Forretress team should think about making use of either its ability to directly combat Spinners, or its role compression as a Spiker/Spinner. Those teams will usually have a strong defensive presence to take advantage of Forry's strenghts. I suspect more Offensive Forretress teams are possible, in which case you could want to use HP Ghost Forretress to effectively weaken Gengar yourself, Boom to target Claydol/Starmie and even Speed EVs to get clutch Spins/Booms on a lot of Pokémons hanging betweene 136 and 180 speed. I suggest you still use max SpDef on those sets to tank about any non-Fire move.
Core Examples
Wish Rachi heals Forry and Dol. Dol spins for Forry, enabling you to use more offensive coverage, Milotic covers Mixed attackers alongside Jirachi. Milotic and Jirachi appreciate Spikes & Spin to work efficiently.
Same as above but with Celebi for Leech Seed and better Suicune answer than Milotic.
Same as above but with SpDef Zap to handle Mixed Attackers with better and aggressively use Spikes.
Note: Even if you have Claydol, Pursuit Tyranitar is still encouraged on those cores to really lock down every hazards match-up.
Suit Ttar + HP Fire Forretress can outlast all Skarmory, including partership with Claydol or Gengar. SpDef Zapdos handles some setuppers and mixed attackers while making use of Spikes.
Tyranitar Pursuits Gengar for Forry & Hariyama. Hariyama removes Skarmory Leftovers which allows Spin Forre to beat it longterm.
Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1515771692-ug488rzjjm62qwg0obck3r0tjvemyswpw
Forry gets one Spikes and Spin while Zapdos/Pert handles set-uppers, DDMence finishes the job.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-537192
Forry actively trades with an early Meta. Dying isn't an issue even with a back Skarmory thanks to Jira+Dol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-538642
Dream Forry match-up where the field is entirely controlled against another Fat team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-551783
FireForry prevents Skarmory from healing and becoming an issue again in the late game, only limiting it to one Spikes.
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i guess not having a million viable options that all are threatening in their own way. 100/100/100 bulk is excelent, recovery, and an infinite movepool
Very unlikely for this to happen. Simply too strong. Someone could always host an adv ou + mew tour if you wanna experiment with it. There was something similar done for gsc ou + cele/hooh
jirachi has a much better typing and similar usable movepool while also not getting hit by sandstorm. celebi probably has a worse typing but gets leech seed + recover + natural cure. both have the same bulk and are hardly oppressive in the ADV meta. it would function similarly to those two, no?
well considering mew has explosion, bolt beam, SD with good coverage, and Mew can be customized to check or break through literally every mon, doesnt die to dugtrio, has fire blast which CM sets can love esp against steels
What are your thoughts on Sceptile in the current meta? I've recently been experimenting with using pursuit sceptile on Jolteon spikes. It can force damage on Claydol and Starmie. I've experimented with a set of Endeavor/Pursuit/HP Ice/Leaf Blade. Endeavor is there to chunk blissey. The sets really suffers from not having Thunder Punch and therefore allowing Skarmory to get free spikes. I wanted to pair it with Starmie to stop this, but I couldn't fit it on my team. I also couldn't fit Tyranitar, which is really sad for offense. Sceptile has a ton of flaws, but I think this is an interesting niche.
This is my team so far: https://pokepast.es/1856735158237df5. What do you think? It could probably be improved a lot.
Skarmory is the spiker, Jolteon abuses the spikes, Gengar lures special walls(especially blissey), Sceptile does what I said above, Aerodactyl is a great cleaner, hit blissey and wears down Jolteon's checks like Swampert. Swampert is the team's obligatory rock resist.
This is my team so far: https://pokepast.es/1856735158237df5. What do you think? It could probably be improved a lot.
Skarmory is the spiker, Jolteon abuses the spikes, Gengar lures special walls(especially blissey), Sceptile does what I said above, Aerodactyl is a great cleaner, hit blissey and wears down Jolteon's checks like Swampert. Swampert is the team's obligatory rock resist.
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