I don't exactly qualify as a "more experienced player" but having read your summary and run into this team a good few times on ladder I think it's simply a solid 6 with just enough techs. It gives you the surprise factor that can give you the edge in the best of 1 environment that is the ladder. It's not a mu fish team or anything, so it doesn't struggle with consistency. It has 4 of the big 5 after all. I do wonder though, how has the spoff mu been, since you kinda have no special walls?
-
Snag some vintage SPL team logo merch over at our Teespring store before January 12th!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource ADV Beginner's Lounge - Rules/FAQ, Resources, Question & Answer
- Thread starter vapicuno
- Start date
UUBL was apparently determined by community consensus back when ADV was the current generation as comprised of Pokémon that were borderline OU, as in Pokémon usable to some degree in OU but not consistent enough to be OU. Even though it's not technically its own tier per se, some people still tried to play it as if it was (metagame discussion can be found here), but it's just been pretty inactive lately
I see, so I guess there just isn't enough demand for an official tier for these guys. Unfortunate that a bunch of mons are stuck there forever with nothing to do in OU. Kinda reminds me of the unofficial UUbers tier in gen 9
Agree, after using the team more its just a cute team with some hidden techs (taunt tar, drill peck, etc) and performs well on the ladder.
As for offensive starmie, it is good. I think offensive starmie is underrated and fun to use. But it is not consistent at all because you rely on pump, so of course it's very limited. Usually if you can play so that you need to just hit a single pump, it's very good but once you rely on an end game where you need to hit at least 2 pumps its horrible.
As for the blissey thing, I don't find it to be a huge problem. Main reason people slap blissey is zapdos, I guess. Just pivot through pert and chip it with gar, then its in Starmie range. Or if its rest its bait for tar. (However, my team is 6-0'd by Raikou, for instance, so yeah there are some issues).
I've been experimenting with aero in the last slot over starmie and roar zap over drill peck cause with aero theres no celebi weakness. But, I'm actually finding I like starmie more - I think this team prefers a cleaner that isn't weak to something like flygon. the team puts way too much pressure on swampert going into superman in that case. And when facing aero you have enough tools for counterplay.
So yeah, kinda surprising but this team with offensive starmie has worked quite well on the ladder!
I see, that makes sense. Can't make your team good into everything, and I'd rather be good into superman than raikou. Also I've never heard of rest bliss, do people actually run that? ig with natural cure it could work, but I feel like you'd still need softboiled. Kinda like how wish bliss runs both
When I wrote about rest I was referring to rest zapdos! Certainly not rest bliss, haha.
I'll keep experimenting. I do really think I prefer a cleaner on this kind of bulky offense team that is good into levitators as oppose to one which is blanked by Flygon, Claydol, etc. (which makes starmie desirable).
oh! duh my b. best of luck with optimizing
Is it really dumb and stupid that I want to request that the e-Reader berries be added to Pokémon Showdown? They are technically unique items that you can give your Pokémon in Ruby/Sapphire.
The Pumkin Berry does the same thing as the Aspear Berry, the Drash Berry does the same thing as the Pecha Berry, the Eggant Berry does the same thing as the Mental Herb, the Ginema Berry does the same thing as the White Herb, the Yago Berry does the same thing as the Rawst Berry, and the Touga Berry does the same thing as the Persim Berry.
Meanwhile, the Strib Berry, Chilan Berry (not to be confused with the Gen 4+ item of the same name), Nutpea Berry, Kuo Berry, Ninjiku Berry, and Topo Berry have no competitive use.
"So... if they are functionally-identical to already-existing items in the game, why include them in our simulator? Just use the items that they are based on!" I hear you say. And that is because of the unique property of e-Reader berries: they cannot be removed. So unlike the items that they share their effects with... you cannot have them removed by the opposing Pokémon using Thief, Covet, or Trick (or you yourself using Trick). This makes them TECHNICALLY mechanically-distinct, and it's a mechanic that this generation had on cartridges that is unavailable in the simulator.
Of course, the other issue is that a game cartridge can only have one of these at a time, as scanning a new card will replace all instances of the old berry with the new one, so we'd need to make some sort of "e-Reader berry clause" to prevent them from combining. And also, with these being only in Ruby/Sapphire and not in FireRed/LeafGreen/Emerald, we'd have to have them not work on teams that have Deoxys in its non-Normal forms.
But other than that... these are unique items that are perfectly obtainable in-game, and yet PS doesn't let you use them. Is it dumb of me to request that they be added?
The Pumkin Berry does the same thing as the Aspear Berry, the Drash Berry does the same thing as the Pecha Berry, the Eggant Berry does the same thing as the Mental Herb, the Ginema Berry does the same thing as the White Herb, the Yago Berry does the same thing as the Rawst Berry, and the Touga Berry does the same thing as the Persim Berry.
Meanwhile, the Strib Berry, Chilan Berry (not to be confused with the Gen 4+ item of the same name), Nutpea Berry, Kuo Berry, Ninjiku Berry, and Topo Berry have no competitive use.
"So... if they are functionally-identical to already-existing items in the game, why include them in our simulator? Just use the items that they are based on!" I hear you say. And that is because of the unique property of e-Reader berries: they cannot be removed. So unlike the items that they share their effects with... you cannot have them removed by the opposing Pokémon using Thief, Covet, or Trick (or you yourself using Trick). This makes them TECHNICALLY mechanically-distinct, and it's a mechanic that this generation had on cartridges that is unavailable in the simulator.
Of course, the other issue is that a game cartridge can only have one of these at a time, as scanning a new card will replace all instances of the old berry with the new one, so we'd need to make some sort of "e-Reader berry clause" to prevent them from combining. And also, with these being only in Ruby/Sapphire and not in FireRed/LeafGreen/Emerald, we'd have to have them not work on teams that have Deoxys in its non-Normal forms.
But other than that... these are unique items that are perfectly obtainable in-game, and yet PS doesn't let you use them. Is it dumb of me to request that they be added?
Hey I’m new to ADV.
What is the spread that lets Dugtrio live Modest Blissey’s Ice Beam after spikes?
What is the spread that lets Dugtrio live Modest Blissey’s Ice Beam after spikes?
Most dugs are evd for bold bliss + spikes or just modest. Not really both. 8HP + 216 SpDef EVs survive bold bliss after two spikes, but 68 HP+ 192 SpDef survives modest bliss after one spike.The problem with both spreads is that you're giving up on so much speed and bulk — even w/jolly, you still need 96 speed EVs to outspeed base 100s, but you're still only hitting 234 attack. Even with a choice band, that's pretty pitiful:
152 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 295-348 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
152 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Hidden Power Bug vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 299-352 (83 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
152 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 317-374 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Needing to spread more chip of bi is already problematic, but those roles against rachis and tar's are atrocious. Re: For tar, note that you're not outspeeding or KOing after a dance.
Overall, trying to spend so much effort on keeping dug alive ultimately just isn't worth. Going for adamant or a +1 joly ddtar outspeeder is probably the way to go. Try the former for picking off bliss.
Last edited:
Howdy, I believe this is the correct thread for my question, but apologies if not. I have recently gotten into ADV OU and have been using sample teams. One team I really enjoy using is Eden's Moltres TSS team, however I have had problems with Suicune. Specifically rest talk Suicune, even if I have a spike up and chip it if its the last mon and I can't phase it out it just seems to outright win. I tried using Bliss and it just loses 1v1 vs rest talk. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, but I figure there is something I am missing. I have tried taunting it but because it only lasts one turn it doesn't seem effective as they can just Surf through Gar and Tar. I would love a response from someone more familiar with the matchup to explain what I am missing or if it is just a loss if rest talk cune is last mon on the opposing team
Dont know if this was asked before as I haven't gone through every reply of the thread but I was curious when was "ADV" adopted as the main name for gen 3? On the smogon dex site it's referred to as "RS" or "RSE" but everywhere else they call it ADV. At first, I thought it was just because it was named after the anime (advanced battle) or the handheld it was first available on (GameBoy Advanced) but I can't seem to find any thread or anything relating to when and why ADV became the main name for the generation.
How do I beat Salamence with a TSS team? Specifically I've been mostly using the Jolteon Starm Spike Stack by Kerts sample team.
Theoretically I can beat Mixed Salamence with Gengar's Ice Punch or Starmie's Ice Beam. I have succeeded at wearing down the opponent's team by switching in Starmie on Fire Blast multiple times, but that seems inconsistent.
Dragon Dance has sweeped me every time. After the boost it outruns and has a chance to one shot almost everything on this team.
Theoretically I can beat Mixed Salamence with Gengar's Ice Punch or Starmie's Ice Beam. I have succeeded at wearing down the opponent's team by switching in Starmie on Fire Blast multiple times, but that seems inconsistent.
Dragon Dance has sweeped me every time. After the boost it outruns and has a chance to one shot almost everything on this team.
As you point out you can revenge mixed with Starmie and Gengar. Mix can't ohko either of those, nor can it ohko jolteon, so those are all panic buttons you can go to against mix.
DDance does sweep you modulo rolls. But it isn't able to set up on any team members except chipped tar and EQ locked meta. If your tar is chipped, hopefully your Mie is healthy and gets the roll to live.
I've been using the ZapDug sample team to great effect https://pokepast.es/af8824d77b9678c4
But I really struggle with Skarmory. I'll send in Starmie to spin, but Skarm will shut it down with Toxic and Protect. This team is very vulnerable to spikes, so I do my best to keep them off, but Skarm makes it difficult. If I can get Zap in they just protect and switch, I usually BP there to scout their switch, but Skarm is still alive, Toxicing my Swampert, blocking my spins. And roar Skarm is especially troublesome, once they have a few layers down and start roaring I really don't know what to do
But I really struggle with Skarmory. I'll send in Starmie to spin, but Skarm will shut it down with Toxic and Protect. This team is very vulnerable to spikes, so I do my best to keep them off, but Skarm makes it difficult. If I can get Zap in they just protect and switch, I usually BP there to scout their switch, but Skarm is still alive, Toxicing my Swampert, blocking my spins. And roar Skarm is especially troublesome, once they have a few layers down and start roaring I really don't know what to do
yes, this team is pretty weak vs skarmory. you can try running hidden power fire on your celebi and possibly refresh on swampert to make yourself better vs it. Being weak to skarm is a pretty common theme with any dugtrio team, so you need to be careful in that matchup
Thank you, this helped me rethink how I play against Salamence
Does anyone have any advice for completing the 3 non-OU pokemon ladder challenge? I.e to get the max achievement you have to reach 1650 elo with a team of at least 3 non OU pokemon. I really want to give this a shot but I am having a super hard time finding team inspiration for a lot of these mons. Here's the mons I'm most interested in, I'd love some context/help figuring out what they do:
-
I've tried a few teams with him as a late game sweeper like Raikou but man, it just seems too weak and too fragile to work. I don't understand the trick sets at all, either.
- I know this is a stall mon but does it have a genuine niche?
- I've seen this mon on a few really old teams as a spinner, but I've literally never seen it on ladder. It looks okay though as a physically bulky spinner.
- ,,Would love to know why I'd pick these over gengar and what teams they fit on.
- ,I have no clue what teams would appreciate these two, but they seem very similar.
- Why would you pick this over kingdra?
- ,,Whats up with these guys? I feel like regirock and ice are decent mons that would fit on physical and special offense respectively, especially since they have boom.
- Honestly this mon looks so cracked, it has amazing bulk - like actually insane bulk, so I am pretty confused why I never see it on teams. It also has wish so what gives?
- Personally my fav mon on this list. I once got totally owned by one on ladder, I was super surprised to learn that it totally beats blissey 1 vs 1 with pain split, which I think is neat.
Your best bet is probably to find some interesting synergies between two or more <OU pokemon. Usually, just replacing an OU mon with a BL one doesn't work so well, unless you replace two at a time!
For example, Mana had a nice Arcanine + Roselia team which made good use of their complementary typing. For my 3BL challenge, I used triple Regis as I thought, among other reasons, that Regice + Registeel could make a nice special checking combo and same with Regirock + Registeel for physical checking. I suspect this wouldn't have worked as well if I simply replaced Blissey with Regice and then replace Gengar with Misdreavus on a standard team without thinking about the synergies.
Now briefly, the niches in my opinion are
Alakazam - Encore, Knock Off
Articuno - Doesn't get threatened easily by offensive waters compared to Zapdos. Freeze chance is awesome. Has Heal Bell (though I consider this not so good)
Donphan - Amazing spinner when used with Magneton + Pursuit
Dusclops - Snatch
Misdreavus - Mean Look + better special bulk than Gengar
Banette - smacks Ttar/Blissey/Celebi/Claydol/Starmie with really strong HP Fight/Shadow Ball
Venusaur - Complete stop vs Water types that use Toxic, and don't underestimate its ability to just attack stuff in front of it with Giga Drain/HP Ice (I prefer Ice to Fire). Also, try NOT Leech Seeding after Sleep Powder. Use that turn to switch to something threatening.
Exeggutor - Boom makes special walls wary of coming in on it, then you use its powerful special attack to attack the non-special walls. TLDR: Sleep something and do lots of damage.
Ludicolo - Switches into Swampert and can hold its own vs Metagross if you really need to. Meta/Dol teams find it surprisingly difficult to deal with it.
Regirock - can trade with just about any physical attacker + Zapdos.
Regice - can easily destroy teams without Blissey as a special wall
Registeel - spreads TWave quite easily since people are really afraid of Counter/Boom trying to switch Swampert/Blissey into it. Can generally trade with a lot of things as well.
Umbreon - The reason you don't see it much is that it is an absolutely free Skarm/Metagross switch-in, and you're helpless vs CMers. However, Mag+Umbreon+Donphan is a cool core.
Weezing - overshadowed by Gengar, but you can use both together, then it becomes really amazing. Attracts non-Pert waters in to be boomed as well.
So I’ve started playing this format for like two weeks and I’m a huge fan. As of this post I’m at 1218 elo, and I pieced together a team made of sample sets and a little improvisation. But I lose really bad to Zapdos + Magneton. Specifically HP grass Zapdos. Anyone have recommendations?
AC-130 (Aerodactyl) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Flying]
M-4 Sherman (Tyranitar) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
A-10 Warthog (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Roar
- Toxic
- Drill Peck
Panzer IV (Metagross) @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
USS Texas (Swampert) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Roar
Harrier Jump Jet (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
AC-130 (Aerodactyl) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Flying]
M-4 Sherman (Tyranitar) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
A-10 Warthog (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Roar
- Toxic
- Drill Peck
Panzer IV (Metagross) @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
USS Texas (Swampert) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Roar
Harrier Jump Jet (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
This team is extremely weak to special attackers as a result of it simply not having any specially defensive backbone.
Taking a step back, it's important for every team to have a gameplan against both physical and special offensive pressure. I think on the physical side, you're decently covered with Skarmory, Swampert, and Metagross, but taking a look at the special side and it's lacking any combination of specially defensive normals (Blissey and Snorlax), Electric resists (Celebi, Jolteon, etc) or otherwise special defense-oriented pokemon that can absorb hits and force Zapdos out (Jirachi, Gengar, your own Zapdos, etc). The case of your only Electric switch-in being weak to the most common secondary attack on Electric pokemon means that Zapdos is an excessively poor matchup.
Instead of thinking about using individual Pokemon, I would suggest thinking in "cores"- what does one specific Pokemon offer to the gameplans of your other Pokemon? The "Team Options" part of the smogon dex is particularly helpful in this regard, as it offers suggestions on Pokemon that may synergize with strengths or cover weaknesses of others.
Most defensive teams’ gameplan against suicune ends up being cumulative pressure. Spikes and sand help a lot because of Suicune’s poor recovery options, and roar users like skarm or your own suicune are important in forcing it out to take more spike damage. Regular blissey also acts as an immediate check being able to paralyze and thunderbolt suicune, but it stops being as effective after one or two calm minds are set up taking suicune out of thunderbolt KO range. Beating cune requires hazards AND proactive play, assisted by residual damage and a little bit of luck.
it’s worth noting that by “defensive” I’m envisioning a traditional v5 skarm blis milo dol dug core, and suicune is up there with one of the worst matchups for this set of mons along with snorlax, in part of because its lack of sand to cancel lefties. More balanced structures might include more potent checks like Zapdos, Snorlax, Celebi, and Jirachi that can threaten cune directly, with residual damage, or with boost matching, but it’s important to note that these checks lose their efficacy if they come in a turn or two too late.
