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A new generation of weather abuse

I always headdesk when Kevin doubles a Base Stat to represent a +2 boost. I know he knows better :D

Doryuuzu's speed jumps to 550 while Adamant, which is superior to even Deoxys-S. Moreover because the item situation is unknown, you can't even assume Choice Scarf to catch it.

I've been looking over the threads, and I'm aware only of Level-Up and TM moves, so barring Egg moves, this will be Doryuuzu's set:


Doryuuzu @ ????
252 Atk/ 252 Spe / 4 HP
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
Ability: Sand Throw
~Earthquake
~Rock Slide
~X-Scissor
~Swords Dance

Doryuuzu doesn't get Stone Edge or Taunt (unless they're in Egg somehow), so this is the best it can cobble together with known data. This is insanely dangerous on its own, with 405 Attack, but if it gets a chance to use Swords Dance (which is often with the many reistances granted by Ground/Steel), it jumps to a massive 810. Why X-Scissor? Well, Rotom-A now takes on the type of its special move, so it's not addressable by Shadow Claw, and strong defensive Grass types are still on the prowl. Rock Slide hits most of the Levitating Ghosts hard enough to not need an SE-hit, and the flinch chance is a maddening element.

Hippowdon is going to be the primary Sandstorm starter solely because it can stop the sweep of Doryuuzu while also being the safest way to set up your own. Sand has always been a powerful weather and I think Doryuuzu is going to define Sand offense. None of the other perma weather users can afford to switch into its STAB Earthquake, and it's actually *faster* than Politoed 1on1.

We had a Weather test in CAP3 with Permasun and Permarain. They will be a powerful force solely based on the support they give to the rest of the team. People use Snover and Hippopotas in UU after all, so why wouldn't the at least usable Ninetales and Politoed, bringing much stronger weather effects, be used?

Drought and Drizzle are powerful, but Sandstorm still wins the numbers game. Both Hippowdon and Tyranitar are well built Pokemon. Once you take out Politoed or Ninetales their permaweather ends, whereas you can always hold the other Sandstream Pokemon in reserve.
 
Chlorophyll Venusaur will be an amazing subseeder with 80/80/100 defenses and unstoppable speed under the sun. Pair that with synthesis and sleep powder and he becomes quite the threat.

Wash Rotom has incredible coverage in the rain with STAB Boosted Hydro Pump and STAB 100 Acc Thunder.

Speed boost Blaziken could be terrifying under the sun.

Gigaiasu with 85/130/70 defenses could be pretty good in Sandstorm, with far more offensive power than Regirock, but inferior defenses. Regirock even get's Sturdy.

Hydration vaporeon is great.

Mamoswine will become more popular not because it's gained power but rather because of it's versatility has a ground/ice type. It's also gained access to Thick Fat which cancels out one of it's weaknesses and add's a resistance! Not to mention it has the power to kill off slower rock and steel types with earthquake and faster dragons with ice shard.

Altaria could see alot of use as a great counter to Fire, Water and Grass attacks that we'll be seeing as a result of auto-weather, especially since it has cloud nine to shut weather down.

Lickilicki's 110/95/95 defenses aren't bad either, I wouldn't be surprised if he saw more use this generation.

Leafeon get's Chlorophyll now but it could be the worst pokemon to abuse it. Oh well.

Kabutops will start tearing shit up like he did before. Abarooga, the new turtle seems like a good alternative too with only 7 less attack, but considerably less speed and unconfirmed access to Swords Dance.

@Deck Knight: Assuming every team will only be packing one weather? Keep in mind only one weather is damaging, so many pokemon can still benefit indirectly from sun/rain without any drawbacks as well as hail/sand.
 
Swimming Goggles will be Politoed's best friend. Fast frog with accurate hydro pumps in the rain! Accurate Blizzards for grass types!

edit: as someone who has used LickiLicky extensively, he will not be a potent threat to weather teams. He is far too slow. Even if you took a Kingdra's swift swim away he can still outspeed Licki and wear him down.
 
In regards to older pokemon picking up sand related abilities:

Hippowdon doesn't necessarily have to set up sand himself with Tyranitar around, allowing him to put Sand Power to excellent use, with his great bulk and oft-forgotten 112 base attack. Dugtrio might also put Sand Power to good use, turning his mediocre base 80 attack into something to be feared with 120 base speed, although whether its worth giving up Arena Trap is something else entirely. Not entirely sure of its merits on Gastrodon, but it seems wasted on Probopass who would no doubt prefer Magnet Pull or the new and improved Sturdy to ward off its crippling 4x weaknesses.

While Sand Throw's distribution is limited, Sandslash was an excellent choice. 65 base speed is just enough to put his 100 base attack to good use, and while its doubtful he'll make standard, if Hippowdon falls to UU (unlikely) it may be enough for slash to rise out of NU.

Golem finally gets something not called explosion to differentiate himself from Rhyperior in Sand Veil - 20% evasion + the SpD boost from being a rock type could make him a nightmare on sandstall teams, although he is still crippled by its 4x weaknesses. Donphan... not really sure if he'd prefer Sand Veil or Sturdy - he doesnt get a SpD boost in sand, but at the same time doesnt have crippling weaknesses that lead to easy OHKOs to activate Sturdy.
 
Fisherman JP said:
Altaria is not going to be a reliable check to rain. All the water pokemon have Ice Beam in their movepool.
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Not exactly, most pokemon with swift swim/chlorophyll have speed stats lower than Altaria's. As such Altaria can out speed and OHKO them before they can attack. Along with that, Alteria resists Water/Grass/Fire/Ground which are going to be the three main attacking types with weather. As such, practically all of the pokemon who do outspeed Altaria can't hurt him. This allows Altaria an easy way to set up with DD.

Altaria is definitely going to be a contender in the so called "Fight Against Weather"
 
anyone know the new ability for Tyranitar?? also will sand have the upper hand because you can pack 2 SS starters?? i really like sand as an offesive weather rather than stall, also poor Ice, got nothing new to play with :(
 
sir_arthur said:
anyone know the new ability for Tyranitar?? also will sand have the upper hand because you can pack 2 SS starters?? i really like sand as an offesive weather rather than stall, also poor Ice, got nothing new to play with :(
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I believe it is Anxiety, which prevents your enemies from using their berries.

As for Doryuuzu...it will be frightening indeed, but is comfortably walled by Skarmory, Rotom-W, Zapdos/Moltres, and brought to a halt should Politoed switch into a Swords Dance.
 
Zcythe said:
Not exactly, most pokemon with swift swim/chlorophyll have speed stats lower than Altaria's. As such Altaria can out speed and OHKO them before they can attack.
Click to expand...
My first question when you mentioned this was "With what?" and I had to do some calcs to see if there was any truth to that statement. Offensive DD is definitely not going to do it since you don't OHKO Kabutops with EQ and an Adamant nature, even with SR damage factored in. It looks even worse when you consider they tie and that Altara will have to run Jolly to even be a reliable check. With Ludicolo, you have a higher damage range to work with (assuming Outrage), but you still can't KO immediately after SR damage. Specs is probably the best shot Altaria has of checking anything at all, since Draco Meteor KOs every Rain sweeper without question besides Ludicolo.

#127 - shared with BUG/ELC spider, which iirc is something that prevents the opponent from using berries
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Rather disappointing, but it wouldn't matter anyway, since no one would want to give up Sand Stream.
 
Scicky said:
Leafeon get's Chlorophyll now but it could be the worst pokemon to abuse it. Oh well.
Click to expand...

Pardon? Have you seen how hard a Leafon can hit if it gets up a Swords Dance? True, it has no SolarBeam. True, it has no Fire STAB to abuse in Sun. But the double speed sure helps the little green git.
 
Hippowdon and TTar will stay in OU and sandstorm spam will be everywhere, abusable by there new friends.

Politoad and ninetails will be UU/BL because Hippo and TTar completely screw them over in OU and no one will use them. Altaria will be the only thing to stop them in UU so they will be a pain, and alteria will be running natural cure unless you want to troll.

Conclusion - more sandstorm abuse.
 
Denchura]Hippowdon and TTar will stay in OU and sandstorm spam will be everywhere said:
Pardon? Have you seen how hard a Leafon can hit if it gets up a Swords Dance? True, it has no SolarBeam. True, it has no Fire STAB to abuse in Sun. But the double speed sure helps the little green git.
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I'm Sketchy on Leafeon. 115 base attack makes for some heavy hitting after as SD, but a lot of the problems it has in UU would be an even bigger issue for it on an OU sun team - namely the inability to do significant damage to Steel types since it doesn't have a real power-move beyond Leaf Blade, and instead has to resort to stuff like Return. At least on a Drought team it's likely to have a bunch of buddies that can burn up the stuff that walls it, but it comes at the expense of a SD.

Unless, of course, you Baton Pass it. It seems unlikely it'll be legal since Chlorophyll is from Dream World which would prevent egg moves from appearing on it, but if you could get both at once, BPing those SDs to Pokemon that are more versatile could be very devastating without the drawbacks most BPers have of not being able to do much on their own. The speed boost lets you get away with offense/defense neutral spreads like 252 HP/252 Atk without losing any real offensive power, too.

Zcythe said:
Not exactly, most pokemon with swift swim/chlorophyll have speed stats lower than Altaria's. As such Altaria can out speed and OHKO them before they can attack. Along with that, Alteria resists Water/Grass/Fire/Ground which are going to be the three main attacking types with weather. As such, practically all of the pokemon who do outspeed Altaria can't hurt him. This allows Altaria an easy way to set up with DD.

Altaria is definitely going to be a contender in the so called "Fight Against Weather"
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I'm a little sketchy unless it ends up running some really niche movesets. It's probably going to have to do it from the special side, and with 70 base SpA it's gonna have a hard time getting stuff in one blow. It'd likely need all of Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor(Kingdra), a real flying stab attack(which it doesn't have, for Ludicolo), HP Grass(Kabutops), and then it still lacks a way to deal with Qwilfish. And the only one of those attacks that is an OHKO
is the HP Grass. Altaria, sadly, just isn't a very good Pokemon, I think.

There's also the problem of: what if your opponent isn't using a weather team?

Do you really want to be stuck with an offensive Altaria in every match?

DougJustDoug said:
One pokemon I noticed with a weather-related ability, that might not be high on everyone's radar is Lickylicky. It may turn out to be ineffective, or a gimmick -- but Cloud Nine Lickylicky could possibly be a viable check to rain abuse. I say this because Lickylicky has very nice bulk, access to Swords Dance and Curse to boost stats, and has the oft-overlooked Power Whip in its movepool. With the ability to wipe out the boost to rain-enhanced attacks, and to hit most water types with a big 120bp grass move possibly from a boosted attack stat -- that may give Lickylicky a place in a rain-dominated 5th gen metagame. Also, I'm not too sure, but I don't think many current rain sweepers carry a decent Fighting move in their current competitive movesets, so Lickylicky might not have too many SE hits to worry about either.

If multi-pokemon battles become commonplace in our future metagames, I have a hard time believing Lickylicky's currently unparalleled STAB Explosion would not be sexy as all get out. And if it decides to 'splode after a Swords Dance? -- Anything that isn't a Ghost is probably going bye-bye...

Anyway, Lickylicky has always been one of those also-ran pokemon in the current meta. But, with a new ability it may deserve a second look in the metagame to come.
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I think Lickilicky was always kind of undervalued. Admittedly I'm used to fighting in UU where I have a lot less offensive power at my disposal than I would in OU, but it is misleadingly bulky. While it's not a perfect counter for many weather mons either, I could see it at least being an asset because of some of the tricks in its movepool. It's a pity it can't learn Thunder Wave to be really disruptive, but it deals with Kabutops and several of the sand Pokemon well with Power Whip, though when it comes down to it I think its best asset against weather will be the ability to get its HP low enough without dying to pop a Custap Berried Explosion.
 
I'm a little sketchy unless it ends up running some really niche movesets. It's probably going to have to do it from the special side, and with 70 base SpA it's gonna have a hard time getting stuff in one blow. It'd likely need all of Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor(Kingdra), a real flying stab attack(which it doesn't have, for Ludicolo), HP Grass(Kabutops), and then it still lacks a way to deal with Qwilfish. And the only one of those attacks that is an OHKO
is the HP Grass.
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Draco Meteor, dude.
 
SJCrew said:
Draco Meteor, dude.
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Doesn't OHKO Ludicolo, was mentioned for Kingdra, who is faster than it and has a decent chance of carrying Dragon Dance and forcing Altaria back out, and Qwilfish is faster as well (though it is also OHKOd). I'm skeptical about a Pokemon being used exclusively to counter one strategy that loses straight up to most of the Pokemon central to that strategy, and that in the best case scenario ends up with one kill stuck out on the field with -2 SpA against a team that likely has multiple statboosting Pokemon. SR weakness isn't favorable either.
 
Remember that often, rain sweepers will have lost 10-20 percent of their health to Life Orb.

And Altaria is merely a new tactic to checking these weather teams. I personally see it being more suited against Sun/Sand, while Abomasnow can deal with rain quite effectively. The new Grass/Steel should present quite a challenge as well, with its only weakness being almost non-existant on rain teams.
 
I know it might be different thise gen, with all the new stuff, but weren't low level versions of Kyogre and Groudon tested somewhere, and still found to be broken, just for their abilities?
 
There is a thread in CAP somewhere giving the details, yes. I think the two were lowered to about level 78 based on some mathematical formula, and found to be broken for the support they provided.

Still, new gen, new meta, let's see where it goes.
 
Also, something to note about permanent weather is that it makes weather + setup significantly more viable.

Rain:
Kabutops: Swords Dance sets no longer have to rely too much on Aqua Jet since the only Pokemon that can change the weather can't switch into its attacks- Ninetales isn't going to be terribly excited about taking STAB Waterfalls, even if they're sun-nerfed, and Stone Edge is even less fun.
Kingdra: Double Dance gets a more "eternal" feeling now, since it doesn't have to waste time dealing with setting up Rain Dance. As a result, it can even go for a third coverage move, whatever that would be (something like Return to hit Water resists without locking in would work), or it could go with Chesto Rest or something.
Ludicolo: Swords Dance becomes slightly more potent, as it can now run 3 attacks without worrying about losing its rain randomly.
Poliwrath: Bulk Up is likely done better by Poliwrath than Floatzel due to the better bulk, and Wrath has solid physical bulk.
Whiscash: Dumb as it may sound, Dragon Dance Whiscash has plenty of potential. DD / Rest / Waterfall / Earthquake has fantastic coverage, and Whiscash has plenty of legitimate bulk to it as well as a great typing (Water/Ground is legit as hell).
Lapras: Curse / Rest / Waterfall / Return or Ice Shard or Toxic is probably what I would run. Massive defenses, Curse, and Hydration means that it can 100% heal at the drop of a hat, making it very hard to deal with. Toxic beats Hazers, and becomes more notable considering the heavy regen on this set.
Manaphy: As if it wasn't obvious enough, Manaphy is extremely notable for its Calm Mind or Tail Glow shenanigans with Hydration. More reliable perma-weather just makes it better.

Sun:
Leafeon: Swords Dance hurts like a bitch with 110 Attack and Leaf Blade, and 95 Speed is impressive, allowing Leafeon to outspeed things outside of weather should the need arise.
Tangrowth: Tangrowth isn't as fast, but it's slightly bulkier, can go mixed, has a better movepool, etc. It's also marginally bulkier due to its great HP.
Hahakurimo: Not as much bulk as the above Pokemon, but it does have a pretty neat secondary STAB, and hopefully will have a decent tertiary movepool from TMs.

Sand:
Randorosu: Swords Dance with bonus damage on Earthquake, pseudoSTAB on Stone Edge or (steel move), and 125 base Attack lets this thing hit like an absolute truck after a boost.
Doryuuzu: Another Swords Dance user. It can either go for the incredibly powerful double STAB on both of its STAB attacks as well as pseudoSTAB Stone Edge (using Sand Power), or it can utilize Sand Throw to outspeed everything under the sun, your pick.
Sandslash: Swords Dance again. Sandslash has bulk on its side, as well as the advantage of no secondary typing adding weaknesses. It can also Rapid Spin in a pinch, giving it a kinda Kabutops-ish feel.

So yeah, the whole "set up with weather" thing is just a lot more viable on all fronts.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
Also, something to note about permanent weather is that it makes weather + setup significantly more viable.

Rain:
Kabutops: Swords Dance sets no longer have to rely too much on Aqua Jet since the only Pokemon that can change the weather can't switch into its attacks- Ninetales isn't going to be terribly excited about taking STAB Waterfalls, even if they're sun-nerfed, and Stone Edge is even less fun.
Kingdra: Double Dance gets a more "eternal" feeling now, since it doesn't have to waste time dealing with setting up Rain Dance. As a result, it can even go for a third coverage move, whatever that would be (something like Return to hit Water resists without locking in would work), or it could go with Chesto Rest or something.
Ludicolo: Swords Dance becomes slightly more potent, as it can now run 3 attacks without worrying about losing its rain randomly.
Poliwrath: Bulk Up is likely done better by Poliwrath than Floatzel due to the better bulk, and Wrath has solid physical bulk.
Whiscash: Dumb as it may sound, Dragon Dance Whiscash has plenty of potential. DD / Rest / Waterfall / Earthquake has fantastic coverage, and Whiscash has plenty of legitimate bulk to it as well as a great typing (Water/Ground is legit as hell).
Lapras: Curse / Rest / Waterfall / Return or Ice Shard or Toxic is probably what I would run. Massive defenses, Curse, and Hydration means that it can 100% heal at the drop of a hat, making it very hard to deal with. Toxic beats Hazers, and becomes more notable considering the heavy regen on this set.
Manaphy: As if it wasn't obvious enough, Manaphy is extremely notable for its Calm Mind or Tail Glow shenanigans with Hydration. More reliable perma-weather just makes it better.

Sun:
Leafeon: Swords Dance hurts like a bitch with 110 Attack and Leaf Blade, and 95 Speed is impressive, allowing Leafeon to outspeed things outside of weather should the need arise.
Tangrowth: Tangrowth isn't as fast, but it's slightly bulkier, can go mixed, has a better movepool, etc. It's also marginally bulkier due to its great HP.
Hahakurimo: Not as much bulk as the above Pokemon, but it does have a pretty neat secondary STAB, and hopefully will have a decent tertiary movepool from TMs.

Sand:
Randorosu: Swords Dance with bonus damage on Earthquake, pseudoSTAB on Stone Edge or (steel move), and 125 base Attack lets this thing hit like an absolute truck after a boost.
Doryuuzu: Another Swords Dance user. It can either go for the incredibly powerful double STAB on both of its STAB attacks as well as pseudoSTAB Stone Edge (using Sand Power), or it can utilize Sand Throw to outspeed everything under the sun, your pick.
Sandslash: Swords Dance again. Sandslash has bulk on its side, as well as the advantage of no secondary typing adding weaknesses. It can also Rapid Spin in a pinch, giving it a kinda Kabutops-ish feel.

So yeah, the whole "set up with weather" thing is just a lot more viable on all fronts.
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I agree with SDS for sure. IMO, Sandstorm is going to be the strongest. Doryuuzu, TTar, Hippo, Gliscor, Scizor, etc. will make for a huge powerhouse team. It's scary to think about it as well since it'll be gaining the residuel damage side as well, making it drop some pokes even faster. Plus, if SR is still around, my good will sandstorm be scary. Maybe even add that grass/steel type to the mix to possibly stop bulky waters from coming in.
 
What tells me Cloud Nine Lickilicky can put Sun/Rain teams to a hault with Fire Blast/Power Whip, then Explode in a fiery hellstorm?
 
Denchura said:
Politoad and ninetails will be UU/BL because Hippo and TTar completely screw them over in OU and no one will use them.
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I don't know where you're getting the idea that a Hippo and Ttar can completely screw over a Pokemon with STAB SE moves that is also faster than them. This is especially true if Politoed is running high sp.atk and Hydro Pump. Ttar is 2HKO'd and Hippowdon doesn't stand a chance. Specs Politoed is even better, with Surf OHKOing Hippowdon and 2HKOing Ttar, with a chance to OHKO Scarftar. Hydro Pump guarantees OHKO on even 252/252+ Hippowdon and cleanly 2HKOs 252/252+ Tyranitar.

Ninetales also has one option that both should fear: Will-o-Wisp. The weather may be changed, but both have become less of a threat. Also, Hippowdon is likely switching into Fire Blast. Even without the sun, LO Fire Blast seriously threatens to 2HKO if Hippowdon isn't running a lot of sp.defense.

EDIT: Actually, he's saying that they won't trigger on the turn that the weather changes. In other words, if I switch in Politoed in a double battle, Kingdra's speed won't increase until the start of the next turn.
 
Most of the speculation here is irrelevant. According to Serebii, Chlorophyll and Swift Swim no longer work in the Heavy Rain/ Clear Skies conditions brought about by Drizzle and Drought.

That means that Ninetails/ Politoed will still trigger abilities like Rain Dish and the water/ fire attack boost, but they won't increase anyone's speed.

http://serebii.net/abilitydex/swiftswim.shtml
 
ShadesOfSolomon said:
Most of the speculation here is irrelevant. According to Serebii, Chlorophyll and Swift Swim no longer work in the Heavy Rain/ Clear Skies conditions brought about by Drizzle and Drought.

That means that Ninetails/ Politoed will still trigger abilities like Rain Dish and the water/ fire attack boost, but they won't increase anyone's speed.

http://serebii.net/abilitydex/swiftswim.shtml
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Where does it say that?

"When rainy, The Pokémon’s Speed doubles. However, Speed will not double on the turn weather becomes Heavy Rain."

To me, this just means your speed just isn't doubled the turn the weather changes, but is afterward.
 
No way of knowing just yet, but I'd say the balance of probability favours the nerfing of the abilities, since there would be little reason to make a distinction between 'the turn when it begins' as opposed to 'every turn thereafter' otherwise, given that 'the turn that it begins' could only be pertinent in a double or triple battle situation (and even then, why change the existing dynamic?).
 
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