480 Attack: Medicham discussion

cim

cim

happiness is such hard work
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Ok guys, as long as there is the new "point out redeeming qualities about Pokémon" trend, let me show you the offensive force Medicham.

Let's start with the bad. It lost physical Shadow Ball and didn't get any move to take its place (Shadow Claw would have been nice GameFreak!). It didn't get Stone Edge or Close Combat, leaving only one of its moves breaking 75 Base Power without STAB (this is probably a good thing, the metagame would be ripped to shreds if Medicham had Close Combat). Combining this with Cresselia, a very popular physical sponge, and Medicham falls over crying. At least initially. Tying in its incredibly low stats (Base 70 Defenses, 80 Speed), and you might wonder if he even has a chance.

Then Medicham stopped and realized what it had gained and what it still had. Pure Power is still and always will be the best ability in the game; EVs count double in Attack, making it hit 480, a number most things would love to reach with Choice Band. It also gained a fair number of DP benefits. Choice Scarf is the best thing to happen to Medicham, as it can reach phenomenal 412 Speed combined with 426 (when Jolly) Attack and be a great sweeper and (non-Hippowdon-countering) lead. The Elemental Punches are his without breeding; Fire/Thunder/Ice giving great coverage alongside Fighting. And... that's really about it.

Well, a ballsy 480 Attack stat is nice, yeah. But how does it do compared to Heracross? Despite Heracross getting Cress-raping accessory Megahorn, they actually both do pretty well against walls. Damage calcs below:

252/252 Skarmory
The best wall in RS is still good in DP, but Heracross, with Choice Band, notoriously 2HKO's the Steel beast with Close Combat, doing 53.89% - 63.47%. Medicham can reply to that with a Choice Band Thunderpunch doing 42.51% - 50.30% when Adamant (keep in mind it 2HKO's any standard Skarmory most of the time).

252/252 Gliscor
If you rely on Gliscor to stop Heracross, your team will have Medicham problems. While Choice Band Heracross manages 30.79% - 36.16%with Stone Edge (EG a 4HKO with Lefties), Medicham, even without a Choice Band, easily OHKO's with Ice Punch (for obvious reasons).

Cresselia
Heracross has the clear upper hand here. While Medicham can manage a 3HKO with Double Edge (28.38% - 33.33% to max/max/no one runs this), Heracross can do 90.54% - 106.53% with Megahorn (or a OHKO on any normal set)

Hippowdon
If Medicham's CBing, it will dent the fat hippo (38.33% - 45.00% max/max). If Hera is, it will just miss 2hko. (48.33% - 56.90% with Megahorn).

So Heracross is slightly better at beating the Standard walls of hell. I thought Medicham's hippo calcs were low though.

Now on to badassery. Heracross is a blue bug. Medicham is a ninja. Medicham wins.

Finally, pure numbers. Medicham's Attack stat is mind boggling (720 with Choice Band is just incredible). Heracross's isn't. Medicham has a nerfed movepool. Heracross doesn't. Medicham can take Dragons, Gyara, Gliscor, and the like. Hera can't. I'd say they're about even.

Since both can run Choice Scarf and Choice Band very well, the only thing left is to figure out which to put in your team. Medicham can do a few things very well (Choice Scarf lead Medicham is what I currently run). Heracross can do Choice Scarf and Choice Band differently, which, if CB'd against a Wall, it does better. I personally think it entirely depends on your team. Need lots of Super Effective coverage while still scaring the shit out of things with your STAB? Medicham is your man. Want an almost as powerful sweeper with possibly the most deadly STAB combination ever thought of (realistically, guys. You're not getting Electric/Ice or Ghost/Fighting)? Heracross.

tl;dr: Stop debating if bad UU things like Pinsir really suck when you have an awesome not-Hera poke waiting to be used.
 
Your alternate huge power Poke discussion makes me cry inside. ;_;

Medicham's downfall would be his moves having slightly lower base power. Heracross also has some good resistances, and reasonable defenses. Medicham lacks the 4x weakness, but I think it'd die to a number of Arial Acers, anyway.

It's cool in it's move type options, as an alternative to Heracross, though. They seem somewhat similar, being high-powered, albeit slower sweepers with the Fighting type. But their moves seem to have them KOing different Pokemon.

The main reason I'd use Heracross > Medicham is because of resistances and defenses.
 
Medicham is an underrated poke. Unlike Heracross, it can get more overall coverage with its moves and more easily counter things like Garchomp or Gyarados. Of course Heracross does have more switch in potential, Medicham has very little it can switch into safetly.

You've already mentioned Medicham's biggest issue and that is Cressy. She resists both STAB's, doesn't mind any of the elemental punches, and Double Edge doesn't hurt her too much,she can probably stall it out. Why is it that Pokemon who get the elemental punches don't also get Shadow Punch?

Overall is Medicham useful? Yes, especially if your opponent is easily surprised by BL pokes and starts taking super effective elemental punches like crazy. Heracross has the better base statpool, but Medicham is a decent sweeper choice.

Also, Medicham gets a priority move in Bullet Punch. For whatever reason it doesn't get the STab'd priority move in Mach Punch, but it's still rather useful.
 
Medicham was one of my favorite Pokemon to use in ADV and I hate the fact it lost a physical Ghost attack. But I think the main reason I loved using it in ADV was because non-ChoiceCham was every much as good (if not better) than CBCham. Surprising things with a different move when they expect you to switch was orgasmic. In D/P though, it seems almost blasphemous not to use ScarfCham over other variations. The other reason I loved Cham so much was predicting with Focus Punch (which is a secondary if not tertiary option now that the elemental punches are physical).

One nice upgrade you forgot to mention was the addition of a physical Psychic attack in Psycho Cut that takes out Cham's biggest nemesis from ADV, Weezing. So really, it just a trade-off from Weezing walling it before to Cresselia walling it now. Pairing Cham with Weavile/Tyranitar seems like a good idea (in fact, if you're willing to spare some type coverage, you could always run Baton Pass on a Choice set to catch Cressy switch-ins with Weavile/Tyranitar).
 
One nice upgrade you forgot to mention was the addition of a physical Psychic attack in Psycho Cut that takes out Cham's biggest nemesis from ADV,
Click to expand...

IIRC, Psychic hits Weezing just as hard, despite coming from about 500000 less Attack.

Medicham is just too weak for my liking. That sounds crazy, I know, but he is outpowered due to the lack of a powerhouse movepool. Close Combat will always outpower Medicham, even if it's coming from something as weak as Infernape.

Max Attack Infernape Close combat vs 0/0 Jirachi: 54.55% - 64.22%
Max Attack Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs 0/0 Jirachi: 48.68% - 57.18%

Sure, you can argue that Medicham has elemental punches to fall back on, but Infernape has a whole arsenal of attacks to choose from, and he's faster to boot. Heracross also has a marked advantage over him with better toys to play with like Stone Edge, STAB Megahorn and Pursuit. Machamp can dish out attacks from only slightly less Attack, with the added bonus of guaranteed confusion and 100% accuracy.

Imo, Medicham is very far down the pecking order of Fighting Pokemon.
 
Chris is me said:
252/252 Skarmory
The best wall in RS is still good in DP, but Heracross, with Choice Band, notoriously 2HKO's the Steel beast with Close Combat, doing 53.89% - 63.47%. Medicham can reply to that with a Choice Band Thunderpunch doing 42.51% - 50.30% when Adamant (keep in mind it 2HKO's any standard Skarmory most of the time).
Click to expand...

That's not a 2HKO. You need 53% or greater damage to 2HKO something. Not to mention that's choice band which I think is agreed is inferior to choice scarf on medicham.

Even if it does carry CB, and you manage to predict right by using thunderpunch, skarmory has many options. Including sacrificing itself by taking another hit to kill you with brave bird (possibly drill peck if that can KO too). It can also just switch to a ground type after switching in without being overly crippled by a less than 50% attack. Switching to a dugtrio would really screw you but anything that can set up as you switch out like garchomp is also a threat.

It's also not very versatile as anything other than the choice set is difficult to pull off and thus ineffective in standard play. You also need a lot of prediction to play it because aside from being walled completely by stuff like cresselia and hippowdon, you need to predict the right move to be able to do anything to gliscor skarmory weezing etc.

The BP of its attacks also hurt it offensively. Kind of like weavile. If it's not hitting something for super effective then it's not going to be doing a lot of damage. Example of this is using the elemental punches on blissey and doing pitiful damage. So you're left with the dilemma of will it stay in and I brick break/hi jump kick or will it switch out and I predict skarmory and tpunch or I predict gliscor and ice punch?
 
Tying in its incredibly low stats (Base 70 Defenses, 80 Speed), and you might wonder if he even has a chance.
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Base 75 defences actually. Some Medicham expert you are. :p

The BP of its attacks also hurt it offensively. Kind of like weavile.
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That's what I was getting at, yeah. I believe it was Dragontamer who said that, for all Weavile's power, Miltank hits harder. Medicham has the same inferiority complex. It was nice of them to hike up the power of HJK though, because without that Medicham would be a laughing stock.

EDIT: And he looks like a fucking ballerina.
 
Not sure if Pure Power is THE best ability in the game (drizzle . . . wonderguard . . .) but it is really, the only thing that makes Medicham comperable to Hera.

But the way I think about Pure Power is this: Compared to RBY, pokes now have 2 additional slots in which to further develop their strategy-- items and abilities. These two slots can be use for a LOT, and are often a make or break point in a pokes viability. Lets face it-- Dragonite is greatly hosed inpart because Salamence has the awesome ability Intimidate. Bulky Gyara wouldn't even be very viable without intimidate. What would Bronzong be without Levitate?

What I'm getting at is that using up an ability or items slot isn't "free." To get that power, you're paying an opportunity cost. For the increase in its attack power, Medicham is missing out on getting another cool ability like Guts or Synchronize.

Lets look at Pikachu for instance. Light Orb effectly does the same thing for pika as Pure Power does for cham (except better since it's physical and special), but because Pika can't scarf itself like Cham can, it's hosed. If Pika could get use its ability slot for something better (something to increase its speed >_>), it'd be a lot better off.

When it comes to sheer attack power, 3 aspects have a chance to affect the poke's overall potential: Base Stat, Ability, and Item.

Pikachu is hosed because while it has a great item, it can't do jack about its crappy base stats and ability.

Medicham has a great ability, can use the standard items (which are still very good), but has crappy base stats.

Compared to a poke like Gyara who has great base stats, a great ability, and can use the standard items (which again are still very good), neither pika nor cham is using its 3 aspects very well.

It doesn't matter what ridiculous special attack Pika gets with Light Orb because Porygon Z can still slap a choice specs on itself, enjoy its adaptability, and have a good laugh at Pika.

Likewise while both Medicham and Hera have scarf/band use and great attack stats-- heracross has Guts on top of it, and that makes a huge difference. What Medicham achieves with 2 aspects (base stat + ability), Hera almost achieves with just 1 (base stat), and therefore nets extra benefits.

I mean, can you imagine if instead of 60 base + pure power, Medi had 140 base + Guts? It'd make a huge difference in its viability.

Overall from what I can see, pokes that use abilities/special items to make up for terrible base stats don't do that good-- mostly because of this lost opportunity expense (especially Pika with its special item since it's really missing out on skarf/band/life orb/pinch berries etc.). These days, the best pokes have really got it all-- great ability, great base stats, and lets face it, the "standard" items these days are pretty damn great.
 
I used a choice band adamant max attack stat medicham stab focus punch on a bold frozen 252 hp 252 def milotic. it barely lived, and I was sad. strongest neutral attack in the game I think.

edit: nvm porygon z has hyper beam
 
Lickilicky Explosion > that anyway.

Scarf Medicham vs Scarf Heracross is a contest I'd say Heracross wins hands down. Better STAB offense, better defense type-wise, better defense stat-wise, and having less counters as an overall result...that greatly outweighs the elemental punches, especially since Heracross can still Stone Edge most things you would Ice Punch/Thunderpunch.
 
You praise Medicham in almost every single post you make, Chris - I expected this sooner or later...

But anyways, while Mediacham is indeed looking quite nice as per your discussion, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon on support Heracross over it. Most of your calcs show Hera does better against most walls than Medicham, and you can't beat STAB Fighting and Bug attacks. At least with Medicham you get rid of a disenheartening 4X weakness to Flying.
 
I love ScarfCham, I use it quite frequently in battles. Having all those nice elemental punches built right in is a lovely bonus.

But... how does Cham look like a ninja? It looks more yoga-ish/Indian than Japanese. (Dumb point of discussion, I know)
 
At least with Medicham you get rid of a disenheartening 4X weakness to Flying.
Click to expand...

Even that is something Medicham can't really claim to. About the only Flying attacks used are:
- Brave Bird, which is going to OHKO both any day of the week
- Salamence Aerial Ace, which is rare but will OHKO anyway
- Dugtrio Aerial Ace, which won't happen to Medicham because he will kill Dugtrio with Scarf first and so will Heracross .And even if he isn't then Earthquake usually does enough (though I recall you need some Spikes or Sand Stream in there, but since Medicham is Scarfed that is no problem)
- Togekiss/Yanmega Air Slash, which I don't think he can survive either.
 
Medicham beats down Gliscor with Ice Punch, which is the most common way to ward off Heracross. Medicham 1, Hera 0.

Then again, the the only thing Medicham can do to Cresselia is the barely-3HKO-if-recoil-doesn't-kill-you-first Double-Edge, but then it loses to Weezing. Then again, Heracross can't do a damn thing to Weezing, but Heracross still wins. Medicham 1, Hera 1.

Neither can 2HKO Hippowdon, so there's no point in discussing that.

What I like about Medicham though is its surprise factor. When people see Heracross leading the team they think "ok so I HAVE to assume it's a CS hera", whereas they're perfectly fine leaving Gengar in on Medicham.
 
If you're comparing it to heracross I don't think it does well:
- A hi jump kick does about as much as a close combat (slightly more)
- Medicham has lower defenses
- Medicham has few resistances, while heracross has many
- Heracross has a much wider movepool
- Heracross gets guts and swarm, medicham gets nothing
- Heracross is faster
- More of heracross' moves have higher base power
 
BLAZIKEN_57 said:
Medicham beats down Gliscor with Ice Punch, which is the most common way to ward off Heracross. Medicham 1, Hera 0.
Click to expand...

Choice Scarf Medicham Ice Punch on a 252HP/252Def Impish Gliscor : Damage: 77.68% - 91.53%.
With a band it should nearly be always a OHKO. Edit; Always a OHKO.
Damage: 115.54% - 136.16%
While Gliscor retaliates back with Aerial Ace for 72.73% - 85.28%

I always thought that a Gliscor would OHKO back with Aerial Ace with Medicham's poor defenses. Guess I thought wrong. Just making sure.
 
It has an 'eh' movepool in terms of power, making me not like it all too much.

Why do you tell us how 'amazing' ScarfCham is in the begining and then run clacs on CBCham? Were the numbers on ScarfCham that deppressing compared to Heracross? ;_;

Chrisiswrong said:
Stop debating if bad UU things like Pinsir
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Pinsir isn't bad. He is actually much different from Heracross and deserves a debate. This just shows us how a CB Pure Power Pokemon can't do half of the stuff that CB Hera can, yet hits a few dragons and Gyara.
 
I dunno, I use Scarf Medicham once in a while, and it seems a bit weaker than I expected. It's about the same as Scarf Staraptor with its 120 base power Brave Bird to me.
 
In regards to Cresselia, nothing can counter everything.

Meh, I'd consider using Medicham, but as me other people have said, it's not strong enough, even with Pure Power and relies of CS to outrun anything, wasting the potential of CB.

It cries out for a slightly better movepool. =/ CC would be completely broken.
 
I really don't like Medicham one bit, to be honest. HJK is very risky, as a miss or a switch to a Ghost (iirc) can almost kill you on its own, but your only alternative is Brick Break, which is just so weak compared to Close Combat. Not having anything to hit Psychic or Ghost pokemon super effective is also a major let down.

I'd sooner use Gallade than Medicham if I was set on a Psychic / Fighting over Heracross / Machamp / whatever. Adamant Gallade does more damage with Close Combat than Adamant Medicham with Brick Break, and does a very tiny bit less than a Medicham using HJK. It pretty much learns every move Medicham does, but in addition has Night Slash to hit Ghosts / Psychics (probably the most importance difference), Stone Edge, Leaf Blade, Swords Dance, and also very importantly, actually having usable defenses (well at least SDef), and a massive support movepool to make use of if you ever so desired, which also makes him unpredictable.

I know it's often hard to compare two pokemon to eachother since every pokemon performs a different role / has its niche, etc, but really this seems almost like a case of Heracross vs Pinsir (well maybe not that extreme). The only things CB / CS Medicham has over CBGallade that I can see are a much more powerful Focus Punch if you choose to use it, and more power on the elemental punches he is using, which in my opinion really do not compensate for his lack of Night Slash / any defensive ability.

And they are both still pretty inferior to Heracross in the category of CB / CSing since they lack Guts / Swarm, that perfect (for scarf) base 85 speed, and a monstrously powerful move in the second type. The only advantages I can see to using them Choiced over a Choice Hera are having a way to hit Gliscor and Weezing super effective, but that doesn't really seem to make up for Heracross' huge advantages
 
Well, Heracross also has Guts, Close Combat, Megahorn. And all of the walls you mentioned (for the few that you did) are common Heracross counters. Medicham has its own counters, like Spritomb, Dusknoir and others that with which I can say: "Hey look, my *insert physical sweeper here* is doing more damage that Medicham!" While the attack and speed are certainly nice, I would say that even Choice Scarf Heracross is better than Scarf'ed Medicham, same with CB and any other versions.
 
I don't understand why people are saying using Medicham is suprising. It seems pretty predictable to me after what it's first move, who it outran, or how much it did. After that, you can pretty much safely switch in for the most part imo. Also, I'd sooner leave a Gengar into Heracross rather than Medicham, because 1, a CSHera cannot OHKO Gengar with Stone Edge, and cause of Pursuit, which Gengar survives if it doesn't switch.
 
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