Me when my Krookodile "Counter" is another ground (The meta is ran by rain and snow teams)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other Tier 35 Pokes--January
- Thread starter NotGerald
- Start date
Hello everyone. So we have our new meta for October a bit early (We could win Natdex Spotlight Ladder for October). I've spent some of my day playing the new metagame and it's quite fun so far. There's a lot of strong pokemon for but overall, it seems to be varied meta so far. I'm going to share my thoughts on every pokemon so far from what I've seen and used to give my opinion.
- Fastest mon in the tier, seems like a U-turning bot but is pretty much item locked and its STABs are pretty bad especially with no coverage. Weaker version of Scyther imo
- I want this mon to be good but I think it's just too slow to run offensive sets reliably unless you're running TR. It should lean into its defensive typing, checking stuff like Specs Sylveon and Porygon-Z and Stealth Rocking.
- Rolled my favourite Steel-type. Sweeping sets are held back by bad coverage options. One of our few Trick Room setters so it has potential in that role.
- Somewhat a fat special special wall (Specs Sylveon is 3hkoing dumbass mon) but typing is strong into the ghosts and Curse seems like a decent late game wincon. A meta pick for sure.
- Houndstone has potential in Sand thanks to Sand Spit Sandaconda however Fluffy defensive sets are my personal go-to. Being able to 1v1 +0 Attack Bisharp is amazing thanks to Body Press. Somewhat checks Emboar, and you can end up checking most of the physical attackers in the tier. Upper half Pokemon for sure.
- Amoonguss as usual is a very annoying mon thanks to Spore and good bulk. As long as sleep is legal here, Amoonguss can never not be good.
- Quackborg believes in this and I've even lost to it, definitely not a consistent choice by any means. Some things will hard sit on it but surprise factor due to good coverage can catch out what it intends to catch out if your opponent isn't thinking. Not outright garbage but on the lower side of viability.
- We don't have too many bulky rockers other than Sandaconda and invested Perrserker and Rhydon is the fattest of them all while still packing high damage output. Will need to explore it more but it's one of the better Bisharp answers even with its Steel weakness.
- Haven't seen Vigoroth seriously yet and still figuring it out what it can do. Has some good traits however, reliable recovery, Toxic, Yawn, Knock Off. It will have its place on certain teams but I can't imagine it being a metagame staple this month.
- I faced this recently and it has Baton Pass for pivoting, quite useful coming in as a defensive pivot with access to Strength Sap. Especially if you need a Blastoise answer, this can get the job done.
- Now this is a mon that will definitely be a metagame staple. Looking for Emboar and Bisharp switchins, it's here. Spamming Glare to spread paralysis and setting up rocks and Shed Skin Rest can keep you healthy. Just pair it with Water-type answers and you should be good.
- Unlike its hisui forme, Samurott seems pretty underwhelming at first glance, sharing your speed tier with Bisharp isn't particularly good, though you possess Sacred Sword to OHKO it. Samurott has some potential for sure maybe SD sets or mixed attacking but not an impressive mon in my eyes.
- I am Honchkrow's biggest supporter and I'll let that be known rn. It's quite versatile in sets like Scarf, Scope Lens Super Luck and probably special sets since it has access to NP. Also being faster than Bisharp by 1 base speed is big for it since it ends up being one of its better offensive answers.
- Better but slower Ninjask. Scyther is better on merits of actually doing damage outside of U-turn and having better coverage like CC and Knock Off. SD sets have some potential but since there's a good number of defensive pieces that can handle it, it requires good team support to be successful, which I don't think is particularly hard.
- I class Clawitzer as one of the most dangerous wallbreakers in the format. Essentially getting STAB on Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse make Clawitzer an efficient wallbreaker which target the vast majority of the metagame at large. You need specific pieces like SpD Blastoise or Spdef Sylveon to not lose a mon each time. Drawbacks are prediction reliant on specs and low speed. Specs Sylveon is also slightly more consistent.
- A lot of people are scared of Bisharp in the metagame. It's a hard hitting mon with STAB Knock Off which is quite threatening in a tier that has 4/35 mons being Ghost types and it's also the freest move in the game. Sucker Punch is also very efficient at cleaning and Eviolite gives it a lot of bulk. It certainly has its counterplay ranging from Sandaconda, Houndstone (Colbur can beat SD), Honchkrow, your own Bisharp speed tieing, Emboar and some more but it will have a high impact overall in the meta.
- Sinistcha and Houndstone fighting for the best defensive ghost but I'll give it to Sinstcha, the Grass typing comes into play to keep Blastoise in check while having a Spore switchin for Amoonguss. Heatproof cancels out its fire weakness too but band Emboar will still nuke it and Bisharp invalidates its entire game unless you fish for 30% Scald burn. Has very good traits and exploitable drawbacks, a solid pick atm.
- My favourite Ultra Beast. Guzzlord is probably going to end up being a very specific pokemon that will do what you need it to do but not a spammable pick you can slot on any team. Despite its low defences, it has a high HP stat and fully investing in one defence makes it bulky on that side. Typing is kinda whatever defensively however...
- Porygon-Z would be pretty dangerous if we had less Steels and less Ghosts though PZ can hit ghosts with Shadow Ball (except Zoroark). I find that there's more consistent special breakers like Sylveon and Clawitzer but PZ is not a slouch on damage whatsoever. Also might be the most consistent TR setter thanks to possessing Teleport.
- Sylveon with a Choice Specs is one of the scariest wallbreakers in the tier. It also ends up being one of the best special walls in the tier, handling mons like CM Sinistcha, Shell Smash Blastoise, PZ and others with Toxic + Wish. A top 5 mon in my eyes.
- I was thinking this mon would be complete trash but suicide lead Sturdy seems solid ngl. Could also go like Rock Polish offensive sweeper with LO, still slower than base 110s at +2 but you possess Sucker Punch to kill Gengar and Zoroark.
- I think Vikavolt is getting passed atm because people aren't running webs on it else Bisharp proceeds to 6-0. I think Agility sets could be interesting, has a special attack and its STABs aren't too bad, only walled by Dugtrio-A and that mon has no bulk to take Energy Ball. Some have mentioned specs but it's even slower than some of the other special breakers I've mentioned.
- Noivern is one of only 4 Defoggers and 5 overall removal options, while possessing a great speed tier make it an ideal pokemon to run and it's the only defogger imo that can actually run it comfortably.
- Blastoise is probably the most dangerous sweeper in the tier. Nothing is outrunning it at +2 Speed other than like Scarf Noivern and Accelgor (they don't exist) and it's bulky enough not to fold to Sucker Punches unless it's significantly chipped. You need specific mons not to outright lose to it on preview like SpDef Sylveon and bulky opposing Blastoise but most Blastoise are just sweeping anyway.
- Haven't seen one yet. Has Glare like Sandaconda + rocks with quite the colourful movepool. Serene Grace can also be a funny ability. Only time will tell how this mon will end up being used.
- Dugtrio unlike its Water cousin we've seen in previous meta not accomplishing much, Dugtrio's speed tier is not bad here, if you want an offensive rocker with a good defensive typing, Dugtrio fulfils that niche. Threatens the Steels, Sylveon. Sub Toxic isn't too bad either to bait in its switchins like defensive Blastoise and Sinistcha. Sandaconda too if it didn't just Shed Skin its toxic off on the same turn.
- Gengar is quite similar to Zoroark-H but has stronger dual STAB. Gengar will just do Gengar things with its good utility movepool like Trick, Wisp, Destiny Bond and so on. NP sets are also quite threatening but are kept in check by Sucker Punchers so you probably need to run Sub to get the most use out of NP.
- At first I was afraid of this mon since it hits so hard but it's like Rampardos, speed lets it down but at least there's Scarf to fix that issue and also defensive set up sets with Bulk Up + Flame Charge. Definitely a mon you have to respect since it's hard to switch into its STABs + Knock + Wild Charge.
- Munki seems like it would fall to the back into obscurity but Scarf has some merit. Unfortunately, being weak to Dark is an issue in this meta and being Ghost weak isn't great either but it's one of the best answers to Amoonguss and does possess coverage to hit Steels.
- AKA the trolling mon. Normal/Ghost giving it an immunity to Ghost means you are walled by yourself unless you fit another attack other than STAB which would lead to you not being able to outplay Sucker but you can just do what Gengar does with Sub NP + Sball + Focus Miss and it's the same result. Also has Trick + Wisp to cripple opposing foes.
- Might be one of the more overrated mons. It can hit hard but is somewhat reliant on Band and Houndstone sits on this forever but Scrappy makes its STAB spammable and it has Superpower to hit Steels.
- Accelgor the suicide lead or maybe smth else but the former is very easy to pull off. 2nd fastest mon in the tier and while Accelgor is not breaking the tier offensively, it's just that hazards should be respected with lower Defog usage.
- r/stunfisk will enjoy having their resident mon legal but it seems alright over all. It can check Steels quite reliably but its Ground and Water weakness are big red flags, leaving it vulnerable to Rhydon and Sandaconda but it still has some good moves like Yawn and Toxic and also 1v1s Bisharp and makes Blastoise think about setting up before getting Discharged or Yawned.
- Magmortar is interesting, has Tbolt to hit waters and Focus Blast with a speed tier in a position to outrun some of the common stuff running about but it's not anything crazy to due to frailty but I think it has a place. Belly Drum could be interesting as well.
- Doublade's massive physical bulk is undermined by its abyssmal SpD which needs maximum investment for it not getting folded by Sylveon. It's still quite bulky without Def investment but it's very reliant on its item and Knock Off is common on non-Dark Pokemon like Perrserker and its SpD bulk is still middling. At least it can take one hit from Bisharp and OHKO with Sacred Sword on Eviolite-less sets (assuming Doublade is 0 Atk).
Thanks for reading.
- Fastest mon in the tier, seems like a U-turning bot but is pretty much item locked and its STABs are pretty bad especially with no coverage. Weaker version of Scyther imo - I want this mon to be good but I think it's just too slow to run offensive sets reliably unless you're running TR. It should lean into its defensive typing, checking stuff like Specs Sylveon and Porygon-Z and Stealth Rocking. - Rolled my favourite Steel-type. Sweeping sets are held back by bad coverage options. One of our few Trick Room setters so it has potential in that role. - Somewhat a fat special special wall (Specs Sylveon is 3hkoing dumbass mon) but typing is strong into the ghosts and Curse seems like a decent late game wincon. A meta pick for sure. - Houndstone has potential in Sand thanks to Sand Spit Sandaconda however Fluffy defensive sets are my personal go-to. Being able to 1v1 +0 Attack Bisharp is amazing thanks to Body Press. Somewhat checks Emboar, and you can end up checking most of the physical attackers in the tier. Upper half Pokemon for sure. - Amoonguss as usual is a very annoying mon thanks to Spore and good bulk. As long as sleep is legal here, Amoonguss can never not be good. - Quackborg believes in this and I've even lost to it, definitely not a consistent choice by any means. Some things will hard sit on it but surprise factor due to good coverage can catch out what it intends to catch out if your opponent isn't thinking. Not outright garbage but on the lower side of viability. - We don't have too many bulky rockers other than Sandaconda and invested Perrserker and Rhydon is the fattest of them all while still packing high damage output. Will need to explore it more but it's one of the better Bisharp answers even with its Steel weakness. - Haven't seen Vigoroth seriously yet and still figuring it out what it can do. Has some good traits however, reliable recovery, Toxic, Yawn, Knock Off. It will have its place on certain teams but I can't imagine it being a metagame staple this month. - I faced this recently and it has Baton Pass for pivoting, quite useful coming in as a defensive pivot with access to Strength Sap. Especially if you need a Blastoise answer, this can get the job done. - Now this is a mon that will definitely be a metagame staple. Looking for Emboar and Bisharp switchins, it's here. Spamming Glare to spread paralysis and setting up rocks and Shed Skin Rest can keep you healthy. Just pair it with Water-type answers and you should be good. - Unlike its hisui forme, Samurott seems pretty underwhelming at first glance, sharing your speed tier with Bisharp isn't particularly good, though you possess Sacred Sword to OHKO it. Samurott has some potential for sure maybe SD sets or mixed attacking but not an impressive mon in my eyes. - I am Honchkrow's biggest supporter and I'll let that be known rn. It's quite versatile in sets like Scarf, Scope Lens Super Luck and probably special sets since it has access to NP. Also being faster than Bisharp by 1 base speed is big for it since it ends up being one of its better offensive answers. - Better but slower Ninjask. Scyther is better on merits of actually doing damage outside of U-turn and having better coverage like CC and Knock Off. SD sets have some potential but since there's a good number of defensive pieces that can handle it, it requires good team support to be successful, which I don't think is particularly hard. - I class Clawitzer as one of the most dangerous wallbreakers in the format. Essentially getting STAB on Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse make Clawitzer an efficient wallbreaker which target the vast majority of the metagame at large. You need specific pieces like SpD Blastoise or Spdef Sylveon to not lose a mon each time. Drawbacks are prediction reliant on specs and low speed. Specs Sylveon is also slightly more consistent. - A lot of people are scared of Bisharp in the metagame. It's a hard hitting mon with STAB Knock Off which is quite threatening in a tier that has 4/35 mons being Ghost types and it's also the freest move in the game. Sucker Punch is also very efficient at cleaning and Eviolite gives it a lot of bulk. It certainly has its counterplay ranging from Sandaconda, Houndstone (Colbur can beat SD), Honchkrow, your own Bisharp speed tieing, Emboar and some more but it will have a high impact overall in the meta. - Sinistcha and Houndstone fighting for the best defensive ghost but I'll give it to Sinstcha, the Grass typing comes into play to keep Blastoise in check while having a Spore switchin for Amoonguss. Heatproof cancels out its fire weakness too but band Emboar will still nuke it and Bisharp invalidates its entire game unless you fish for 30% Scald burn. Has very good traits and exploitable drawbacks, a solid pick atm. - My favourite Ultra Beast. Guzzlord is probably going to end up being a very specific pokemon that will do what you need it to do but not a spammable pick you can slot on any team. Despite its low defences, it has a high HP stat and fully investing in one defence makes it bulky on that side. Typing is kinda whatever defensively however... - Porygon-Z would be pretty dangerous if we had less Steels and less Ghosts though PZ can hit ghosts with Shadow Ball (except Zoroark). I find that there's more consistent special breakers like Sylveon and Clawitzer but PZ is not a slouch on damage whatsoever. Also might be the most consistent TR setter thanks to possessing Teleport. - Sylveon with a Choice Specs is one of the scariest wallbreakers in the tier. It also ends up being one of the best special walls in the tier, handling mons like CM Sinistcha, Shell Smash Blastoise, PZ and others with Toxic + Wish. A top 5 mon in my eyes. - I was thinking this mon would be complete trash but suicide lead Sturdy seems solid ngl. Could also go like Rock Polish offensive sweeper with LO, still slower than base 110s at +2 but you possess Sucker Punch to kill Gengar and Zoroark. - I think Vikavolt is getting passed atm because people aren't running webs on it else Bisharp proceeds to 6-0. I think Agility sets could be interesting, has a special attack and its STABs aren't too bad, only walled by Dugtrio-A and that mon has no bulk to take Energy Ball. Some have mentioned specs but it's even slower than some of the other special breakers I've mentioned. - Noivern is one of only 4 Defoggers and 5 overall removal options, while possessing a great speed tier make it an ideal pokemon to run and it's the only defogger imo that can actually run it comfortably. - Blastoise is probably the most dangerous sweeper in the tier. Nothing is outrunning it at +2 Speed other than like Scarf Noivern and Accelgor (they don't exist) and it's bulky enough not to fold to Sucker Punches unless it's significantly chipped. You need specific mons not to outright lose to it on preview like SpDef Sylveon and bulky opposing Blastoise but most Blastoise are just sweeping anyway. - Haven't seen one yet. Has Glare like Sandaconda + rocks with quite the colourful movepool. Serene Grace can also be a funny ability. Only time will tell how this mon will end up being used. - Dugtrio unlike its Water cousin we've seen in previous meta not accomplishing much, Dugtrio's speed tier is not bad here, if you want an offensive rocker with a good defensive typing, Dugtrio fulfils that niche. Threatens the Steels, Sylveon. Sub Toxic isn't too bad either to bait in its switchins like defensive Blastoise and Sinistcha. Sandaconda too if it didn't just Shed Skin its toxic off on the same turn. - Gengar is quite similar to Zoroark-H but has stronger dual STAB. Gengar will just do Gengar things with its good utility movepool like Trick, Wisp, Destiny Bond and so on. NP sets are also quite threatening but are kept in check by Sucker Punchers so you probably need to run Sub to get the most use out of NP. - At first I was afraid of this mon since it hits so hard but it's like Rampardos, speed lets it down but at least there's Scarf to fix that issue and also defensive set up sets with Bulk Up + Flame Charge. Definitely a mon you have to respect since it's hard to switch into its STABs + Knock + Wild Charge. - Munki seems like it would fall to the back into obscurity but Scarf has some merit. Unfortunately, being weak to Dark is an issue in this meta and being Ghost weak isn't great either but it's one of the best answers to Amoonguss and does possess coverage to hit Steels. - AKA the trolling mon. Normal/Ghost giving it an immunity to Ghost means you are walled by yourself unless you fit another attack other than STAB which would lead to you not being able to outplay Sucker but you can just do what Gengar does with Sub NP + Sball + Focus Miss and it's the same result. Also has Trick + Wisp to cripple opposing foes. - Might be one of the more overrated mons. It can hit hard but is somewhat reliant on Band and Houndstone sits on this forever but Scrappy makes its STAB spammable and it has Superpower to hit Steels. - Accelgor the suicide lead or maybe smth else but the former is very easy to pull off. 2nd fastest mon in the tier and while Accelgor is not breaking the tier offensively, it's just that hazards should be respected with lower Defog usage. - r/stunfisk will enjoy having their resident mon legal but it seems alright over all. It can check Steels quite reliably but its Ground and Water weakness are big red flags, leaving it vulnerable to Rhydon and Sandaconda but it still has some good moves like Yawn and Toxic and also 1v1s Bisharp and makes Blastoise think about setting up before getting Discharged or Yawned. - Magmortar is interesting, has Tbolt to hit waters and Focus Blast with a speed tier in a position to outrun some of the common stuff running about but it's not anything crazy to due to frailty but I think it has a place. Belly Drum could be interesting as well. - Doublade's massive physical bulk is undermined by its abyssmal SpD which needs maximum investment for it not getting folded by Sylveon. It's still quite bulky without Def investment but it's very reliant on its item and Knock Off is common on non-Dark Pokemon like Perrserker and its SpD bulk is still middling. At least it can take one hit from Bisharp and OHKO with Sacred Sword on Eviolite-less sets (assuming Doublade is 0 Atk).Thanks for reading.
just gotta say, specs vern is a nuclear bomb, esp with how many sylv are specs
also, klang doesnt need too much coverage, with blade being pretty unused wild charge and rock smash (yes rock smash) are enough
Last edited:
dont forget phys def stunfisk being one of the best emboar switch ins
edit: (IT IS NOT)
edit: (IT IS NOT)
Last edited:
I mean? Idt so if it’s any boosting item. Reckless blitz is reckless blitz
Krook/Starmie/Glowking are the big 3, and if the meta had more time to develop we would start to see more Starmie sets designed to counter the other 2. As it stands, Starmie and Slowking-G were at 57% usage, only marginally behind Krookodile’s 59%. This created a very interesting dynamic, since neither Starmie nor Glowking wish to be on the receiving end of a Krookodile attack and yet the two were still brought to nearly every single game played. Galarian Slowking in particular was viable enough in the face of Krookodile to partially engender the advent of choice band Mudsadle sets. The other primary contributing factor to Mudsdale’s ascent to 35% usage and a #4 spot was its utility into Krookodile. Although Mudsdale lacks reliable recovery, there are few circumstances under which it is disadvantaged by switching into Krookodile. After eliminating Krookodile, so long as it didn’t fall to an unusual Galarian Slowking set, Mudsdale frequently found itself in a position to win games. Unless the opponent still had a Starmie, which could eliminate it with a stab hydro pump and remove its stealth rocks with rapid spin while boosting its speed enough to defeat even a choice scarf Krookodile. At this point, *Starmie* could frequently find itself in a position to wins games. Unless the opponent still had a Galarian Slowking. And remind me again, what was the best answer to Glowking…
A team with the big 3 though was not always the best option. Accelgor, Spidops, and Muk-A were absolutely key parts of teams that are extremely hostile that specific combination. Additionally, there’s snow teams which were underrated and almost existed in a different metagame and with different rules as to how every pokemon functions. Just as an example, offensive special sweepers are infinitely more viable into the snow meta than the normal meta. The sole exception may be nasty plot/vacuum wave Toxicroak which is a good surprise option into Krookodile, though it is sadly walled by Glowking and outsped/ohko’d by Starmie. All of the aforementioned pokemon, while viable, did mostly constitute niche picks, except for Spidops and Beartic.
Both Spidops and Beartic found credible roles in the regular big 3 meta which also frequently featured Politoed as a rain setter. Just as it was in August 2023 (the metagame most of the oldest players started in and home to our first ever tournament), however, the best Politoed set arguably featured Water Absorb over Drizzle. Recently brought to a top 8 tournament set (not so coincidentally involving August 2023’s champion), Water Absorb sets bolster Politoed’s already excellent defensive utility by affording it an additional avenue of recovery and creating nightmares for rain sweepers such as Beartic and Basculin. Even Water Absorb Politoed (which should almost be considered a paradox mon at this point) lies fearful in the face of Rotom-Fan, the final member of the top 10. With access to volt switch and will-o-wisp as well as incredible natural bulk and defog, Rotom-Fan was a cornerstone of the metagame this month. A physically defensive set could switch into a choice banded Krookodile’s knock off and survive with enough hp to take another hit and heal almost back to full by way of pain split, nullifying any potential advantage gained by the Krookodile player. Rotom-Fan wasn’t the most popular choice as can be seen from its 32% usage, and this is in large part to the struggles it faces into Slowking Galar and Krookodile switching into it. Positioning Krookodile in front of Rotom-Fan (assuming it doesn’t get burned) suddenly puts the rotom-fan player on the back foot, as does switching Glowking into anything except for volt switch.
The graphic summarizing the usage stats for these and the rest of the 35 Pokes was created by Maszt who worked incredibly hard to have this ready ahead of time and was one of the main people behind Spidops’ development in the September 2024 metagame!
https://forms.gle/f74utkw9ihjh7d966 Tiering survey for the 35pokes October 2024 metagame
Made it to top 2 of the ladder and then tilted down because this ladder is insanely cheesy
https://pokepast.es/06b8440dcad304ef
Built a fairly consistent HO team here centered around a bunch a mons that benefit from Webs being up. Fast Thunder Wave Vikavolt punishes a lot of the other lead mons like Scarf Honckrow or Sash Zoroark-Hisui and then the slower grounds like Sandaconda and Rhydon you can just click E-Ball against. Bisharp isn't Swords Dance because it doesn't really need it, opted to run Low Kick since the Bisharp mirrors were pretty annoying and it was nice to have in order to output consistent damage against Snorlax. Blastoise is pretty standard, feels kinda obligatory on an HO team since its pretty broken and hard to revenge kill. Zoroark-H I have for my Spin Blocker and as a Bisharp lure in case I can't afford to try to beat with my own Bisharp or others. Synergizes excellently with Sylveon since a lot of the mons that want to try to check Sylveon hate facing Zoroark-H and the defensive profile deters people from clicking Dark-type attacks like Sucker Punch. Dugtrio-A is nice to have in order to break down threats like Scyther and Emboar, also gives the team a rocker to further pressure Scarf Honchkrow and others. Specs Sylveon is the final piece here mean to break down common threats like Wish Sylveon and Noivern for the team. It's natural bulk is also useful to deal with Honchkrow and opposing Zoroark-H.
Not sure how one is supposed to intuitively play around Zoroark-Hisui outside of just guessing since Illusion makes it a borderline uncompetitive presence in the tier, please add it to the survey because it's not healthy or fun to face really.
Everything I think I can tolerate since they are just overly constraining instead of overwhelming per se.
My top ten is prob like the following:
- I think if this mon wasn't in the tier then it becomes an unplayable hellscape, would not ban unless Hizo is banned at the very least.
- You seldom need to outplay Bisharp's sucker if you're disguised as a sturdy dark resist (I love Sylveon for the job) Overall its a mon that can mentally bypass its main counterplay and then kill everything else with its coverage.
- Shell Smash to win the game ggwp. Spin sets are #terrible imo feels really easy to abuse but Shell Smash is literally broken so.
- Choice Scarf is scary tbh, outside of that I really don't care that much for it.
- It has interesting sets like Choice Band, Scarf, Assault Vest, etc but I can't lie I only find them threatening once and then I can just outplay it the next time around.
- Standard wish is probably fine, if you're not using Amoonguss then Choice Specs is damn near impossible to safely switch into.
- Fun offensive utility mon and is a fogger that can threaten Bisharp. Meh speed tier tho
- It's an Amoonguss so it has to be good here but ladder does not EV this mon correctly
- Webs are still powerful if you build correctly imo. Bulky Para Spreader is also something I thought was cool since u can pressure a shit ton with your coverage.
- SD sets are annoying a shit and you can also put rocks on it since it doesn't necessarily need anything other than its stabs
thanks for the team. i will steal it and add it to my collection of ho teams
Made it to top 2 of the ladder and then tilted down because this ladder is insanely cheesy
https://pokepast.es/06b8440dcad304ef
Following the tiering survey posted, we have the results so far into the October metagame.
Enjoyment: 7.6/10
Overall, the council believe that enjoyment numbers are pretty good, and are potentially the highest we've seen throughout 35's lifespan. It is satisfying to see that a good number of people enjoy the metagame right now. Balance on the other hand is a bit lower, there are quite a few controversial mons in the tier that definitely have an impact on this score. But 6.3 is still well above average, which shows our metagame is getting on its way to be more balanced.
Bisharp 3.5/5Bisharp was the pokemon with the highest score in the survey. No one thought Bisharp was a 1/5 and most of its scores came from 3/5 and 4/5. Bisharp is a polarising threat in the current metagame and the council will be voting on Bisharp.
Blastoise 2.9/5Blastoise's graph on the other side is a lot more interesting than Bisharp's. Seems like the opinion regarding Blastoise is all over the place. Some think it isn't an issue at all and some think it's kind of problematic. Note not that many people believe Blastoise to be 5/5. Its average score may not be as high as Bisharp's but the council will still like to discuss Blastoise and we will also be voting on it.
Blastoise vs Shell Smash (38.9% vs 61.1%)If we were to take action on Blastoise, seems like the majority would like to test Shell Smash instead. We wanted to see how the community saw Blastoise overall, as much as Shell Smash does make it the threatening pokemon it is, Blastoise has great utility and defensive profile and it seems likely that people would want to keep its utility traits and get rid of its more problematic attributes.
Honchkrow 2.3/5A good majority of the playerbase at the moment do not see Honchkrow as problematic and on the extreme side, there's only a few who think it's really problematic. We will not be taking any action on Honchkrow for now.
Amoonguss 2.3/5Amoonguss also scored quite low from the results, the playerbase overall doesn't find Amoonguss particularly problematic and like Honchkrow, we will not be taking any action on it.
Notes:
- 1 mention of Sandconda. I guess you don't like Glare huh
- 2 mentions of Gengar.
- 1 mention of Snorlax.
- 2 mentions of Emboar.
- 1 mention of Hisuian Zoroark.
- 1 mention of Scyther.
- 1 mention of Clawitzer.
- 2 mentions of a sleep ban.
- We have also taken on some constructive criticism regarding the scales put in place for rating the Pokemon put in the survey, not describing how "problematic" Pokemon are but instead if they're "balanced or not".
Last edited:
This is my smogon acc btw
Welcome to 35 Pokes! the rule here is that if its stupid, but it works, then its probably not stupid.
In my experience its best to forget the word 'cheesy' exists since a lot of the most important strategies in previous metas, like Defog Drampa and Stored Power Xatu, were initially seen as cheese strats.
When there's not much in the fridge you have to cook with what you have, and some times that means sprinkling in a little more parmesan than usual.
May? That was peak April shit, defog drampa was dropping Dracos left and right
PSA: This post contains choice scarf bisharp propaganda, read this at your own risk. Hello, I wanted to make a post about what I think might be the three best Pokemon in the tier, and why I think they also pair very well together to form possibly the best core in the tier:
+ + Since the metagame is new and a ton of stuff is being figured out, the ambition I had in the teambuilder was trying to find something that would give me good way out against whatever mysterious technologies people might use.
One challenge you’ll have to face in the builder is having some sort of plan for the myriad of very strong wallbreakers the tier has to offer: SD Bisharp, Gengar, Zoroark-Hisui, Porygon-Z, Clawitzer, Fraudckrow, etc… Scarf Bisharp not only handles all of these (w/ low kick for opposing bisharps) with at most minimal chip but also still is pretty much still a wallbreaker lol, knock off and iron head are super clickable, and as this wasn’t enough you get the option to remove something from the game/chip it with a fast and strong pursuit.
Maybe that’s a hot take but I think Scarf is the best item by far. SD is cool and all but outside of HO why even bother spending a turn setting up and play sucker punch mindgames (and lose to scarf low kick bisharp!) when u could just run the set that helps checking half the metagame AND still gets to force progress at the same time with its spammable stabs + pursuit? Sign me in.
Bisharp’s best switch in is Emboar. SD Bisharp (or even Bisharp in general) can be really scary and I think the best way you can take account of it is to spam Emboar + low kick scarf Bisharp. Emboar alone can come off short as it can be worn down and you can get owned by a random psycho cut (although you can invest Emboar to survive +2 psycho cut), and having to lock into low kick with your scarf Bisharp is something you don’t want to do in every situation, so you can just run both to be flexible enough against it.
Fortunately Emboar is also a good Pokemon: very hard to switch into + its super deep movepool makes me think there is a lot you can explore with this Pokemon. Bulk Up, Flame Charge, Head Smash (hits harder than close combat with reckless! Although the recoil and poor accuracy can let it down), Knock Off, Sucker Punch and even has the SpA to go mixed (or even special???) if you want. I think in general i prefer using bulky adamant sets to check bisharp and still be good at making progress.
I think Sandaconda is the best rocker (I don’t think the other mons look very good barring suicide leads - and no I’m not a stealth rock bisharp believer, I think that’s probably a waste of a bisharp. I recognize they probably all have a niche but I think Sandaconda’s defensive utility seem, at least in theory, to be the most useful) and one of the best switch ins to Emboar which makes it a great Bisharp partner itself. Stealth Rocks also make Scarf Bisharp a million times more threatening too. Rocky Helmet + Sand Pit chips Emboar for clicking a move which Bisharp definitively appreciates (you can also own Honchkrow clicking Brave Bird which is very funny). Not running Shed Skin makes u more vulnerable to Toxic but with wish + heal bell Sylveon it should be fine (although if they start to run scald more it might become a problem), and u still get to set rocks that can chip their Emboar if they ate a Knock Off from Bisharp, which is likely cuz if Emboar main selling point in the first place is being a Bisharp switch in. The spread outspeeds +1 paralyzed flame charge Emboar and mixed bulk so you aren’t getting owned too hard by mixed Emboar sets.
So in a nutshell the idea of that core is as such:
>Scarf Bisharp keeps a million things in check and helps vs pretty much any archetype thanks to Knock Off
>Sandaconda punishes the n°1 answer to Bisharp in Emboar so you can follow up the value Bisharp generates with even more value. It’s also a great rocker.
>Emboar + low kick scarf Bisharp is very strong SD Bisharp counterplay
One challenge you’ll have to face in the builder is having some sort of plan for the myriad of very strong wallbreakers the tier has to offer: SD Bisharp, Gengar, Zoroark-Hisui, Porygon-Z, Clawitzer, Fraudckrow, etc… Scarf Bisharp not only handles all of these (w/ low kick for opposing bisharps) with at most minimal chip but also still is pretty much still a wallbreaker lol, knock off and iron head are super clickable, and as this wasn’t enough you get the option to remove something from the game/chip it with a fast and strong pursuit.
Maybe that’s a hot take but I think Scarf is the best item by far. SD is cool and all but outside of HO why even bother spending a turn setting up and play sucker punch mindgames (and lose to scarf low kick bisharp!) when u could just run the set that helps checking half the metagame AND still gets to force progress at the same time with its spammable stabs + pursuit? Sign me in.
Bisharp’s best switch in is Emboar. SD Bisharp (or even Bisharp in general) can be really scary and I think the best way you can take account of it is to spam Emboar + low kick scarf Bisharp. Emboar alone can come off short as it can be worn down and you can get owned by a random psycho cut (although you can invest Emboar to survive +2 psycho cut), and having to lock into low kick with your scarf Bisharp is something you don’t want to do in every situation, so you can just run both to be flexible enough against it.
Fortunately Emboar is also a good Pokemon: very hard to switch into + its super deep movepool makes me think there is a lot you can explore with this Pokemon. Bulk Up, Flame Charge, Head Smash (hits harder than close combat with reckless! Although the recoil and poor accuracy can let it down), Knock Off, Sucker Punch and even has the SpA to go mixed (or even special???) if you want. I think in general i prefer using bulky adamant sets to check bisharp and still be good at making progress.
I think Sandaconda is the best rocker (I don’t think the other mons look very good barring suicide leads - and no I’m not a stealth rock bisharp believer, I think that’s probably a waste of a bisharp. I recognize they probably all have a niche but I think Sandaconda’s defensive utility seem, at least in theory, to be the most useful) and one of the best switch ins to Emboar which makes it a great Bisharp partner itself. Stealth Rocks also make Scarf Bisharp a million times more threatening too. Rocky Helmet + Sand Pit chips Emboar for clicking a move which Bisharp definitively appreciates (you can also own Honchkrow clicking Brave Bird which is very funny). Not running Shed Skin makes u more vulnerable to Toxic but with wish + heal bell Sylveon it should be fine (although if they start to run scald more it might become a problem), and u still get to set rocks that can chip their Emboar if they ate a Knock Off from Bisharp, which is likely cuz if Emboar main selling point in the first place is being a Bisharp switch in. The spread outspeeds +1 paralyzed flame charge Emboar and mixed bulk so you aren’t getting owned too hard by mixed Emboar sets.
So in a nutshell the idea of that core is as such:
>Scarf Bisharp keeps a million things in check and helps vs pretty much any archetype thanks to Knock Off
>Sandaconda punishes the n°1 answer to Bisharp in Emboar so you can follow up the value Bisharp generates with even more value. It’s also a great rocker.
>Emboar + low kick scarf Bisharp is very strong SD Bisharp counterplay
Overall, if you couldn’t tell yet: I’m very *very* high on scarf bisharp, to the point I believe it might be the single best set in the entire tier. Yes, it is much less threatening as SD sets, but it helps checking so much that you should run it over SD anyway in my opinion. Ironically, because of how good this set is at keeping opposing SD Bisharp in check, I believe its existence makes me think Bisharp might be not banworthy, on top of Scarf itself not being very hard to take account of. This might be a bold take lol especially since we only are day 5 of the metagame so I would not be surprised to be proven wrong very soon, but at the moment this is the hypothesis I’m standing for, and the more I build and try stuff on the ladder the more convinced of it I become. I think the two main cases u should drop it is if you are using webs or are running some sort of sturdy bisharp revenge killer (like boots honch), which can for example allow you to use scarf porygon-z more easily.
Here are a couple teams with this core as a base:
(Click the sprites to get the paste)
(Probably the less good of the three?)Magmortar route to punish Amoonguss trying to Spore (as it is immune to sleep thanks to Vital Spirit). The synergy with Sylveon is very cool as Magmortar (good wish recipient) punishes its best answer, and generally the team enjoys wish+heal bell support a lot. Houndstone is mostly here to block spin honestly since sandaconda is not a great rocker into spin Blastoise.
Team works OK, but endgames can be a bit tricky as scarf bisharp is your only reliable option to clean a game, the other mons being more early to mid game minded. The Shell Smash Blastoise matchup is not great but definitively playable (even more playable if you make Sylveon Roar or Toxic). Early games have to be played carefully vs breakers sometimes, as the team relies sometimes a bit too much on your defensive pieces to be healthy to take on certain Pokemon, although Scarf Bisharp helps with that. When you don’t have all the infos about the opposing team it can sometimes lead to have to make hard decisions very early in the game because you can't always tell what you need to preserve i think, which is not the most ideal but also a consequence of the metagame being young and not very well defined imo.
Team works OK, but endgames can be a bit tricky as scarf bisharp is your only reliable option to clean a game, the other mons being more early to mid game minded. The Shell Smash Blastoise matchup is not great but definitively playable (even more playable if you make Sylveon Roar or Toxic). Early games have to be played carefully vs breakers sometimes, as the team relies sometimes a bit too much on your defensive pieces to be healthy to take on certain Pokemon, although Scarf Bisharp helps with that. When you don’t have all the infos about the opposing team it can sometimes lead to have to make hard decisions very early in the game because you can't always tell what you need to preserve i think, which is not the most ideal but also a consequence of the metagame being young and not very well defined imo.
I thought lot of issues of the team above could be solved by taking a more offensive approach, sacrifying some defensive sturdiness for more speed and immediate power, which here take the form of Alola-Dugtrio. Giving up Magmortar is fine since Houndstone is a fine sleep absorber vs Amoongus, can sit on that mon for a while and can throw up will-o-wisps vs it as well. I went for Blastoise as the defensive guy, no spin because I think the hazard game is strong enough with multiple boots users and 1 spinblocker (just be proactive vs spikes teams), roar is nice to check opposing blastoises or setup sweepers in general with the basic scald+flipturn+toxic toolkit. Dugtrio Alola is a nice last, as it hits Sylveon harder than Bisharp with its Choice Band and generally has a nice speed tier that can be useful in a ton of situations. As a bonus it has Sand Force which pairs nicely with Sand Pit from your own Sandaconda. Don’t play this like a dedicated sand team though: treat sand force as one of the minor playing options of the team, it can be useful but not in every game.
"Noiven" lol
A houndstone again! I’m ngl I should try to explore other ways to solve the spin blastoise issue sandaconda is having, although the sleep absorption thing is rly nice to have too.
Didn't get to test the team much yet, but in a nutshell I wanted to try Noivern with the bish+emboar+sanda core. Noivern is a Pokemon that often really annoyed me on the ladder as when you don’t have a sylveon it can be super annoying to deal with late in the game: it doesn’t have a lot of long term checks and has good longevity with roost and boots. Amoonguss is a natural last slot addition as it checks Sylveon and checks Blastoise. I’m stomping tantrum over spore here because sleep is kinda overrated (although still stupid) and I felt like giving free turns to steels (mostly bisharp) post sleep clause can be kinda tough but otherwise you can totally run spore on it over it, it’s just me being a maniac.
Side note but one thing i don't like about having Amoonguss as your sole Blastoise answer is that u need to keep it out of ice beam range which is annoying because you want to use this mon for other things too. Also if amoon gets frozen or crit the game is instantly over which is some rng vulnerability i prefer to not have to depend on lol, ~15% odds to lose instantly to a top threat is not ideal.
A houndstone again! I’m ngl I should try to explore other ways to solve the spin blastoise issue sandaconda is having, although the sleep absorption thing is rly nice to have too.
Didn't get to test the team much yet, but in a nutshell I wanted to try Noivern with the bish+emboar+sanda core. Noivern is a Pokemon that often really annoyed me on the ladder as when you don’t have a sylveon it can be super annoying to deal with late in the game: it doesn’t have a lot of long term checks and has good longevity with roost and boots. Amoonguss is a natural last slot addition as it checks Sylveon and checks Blastoise. I’m stomping tantrum over spore here because sleep is kinda overrated (although still stupid) and I felt like giving free turns to steels (mostly bisharp) post sleep clause can be kinda tough but otherwise you can totally run spore on it over it, it’s just me being a maniac.
Side note but one thing i don't like about having Amoonguss as your sole Blastoise answer is that u need to keep it out of ice beam range which is annoying because you want to use this mon for other things too. Also if amoon gets frozen or crit the game is instantly over which is some rng vulnerability i prefer to not have to depend on lol, ~15% odds to lose instantly to a top threat is not ideal.
Here is an other idea I had with emboar+sandaconda+bisharp (maybe not scarf anymore) for a much more offensive team I didn’t get to try yet. Since the bisharp may not be scarf and the conda isn’t stealth rocks anymore, lot of my reasoning above doesn’t rly apply well but I thought it might still work. I’m kinda bad at building super aggressive teams like this lol so I’m kinda throwing this here to see if someone else could make it work:
Endeavor Salac Berry Sandaconda
You switch into Emboar, you click endeavor: if they stay in they take a million from endeavor and then Bisharp goes hard, if they switch something is taking 70% damages and will drop if they have to take a following earthquake/stone edge. Might have to go for substitute since Flare Blitz isn’t guaranteed to proc Salac, unless you remove some defense IVs. 112 def gives you the bulk to live flame charge + blitz after rocks so prob do that, switch in and click sub. This would be the set:
Sandaconda @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 184 Atk / 112 Def / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endeavor
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Stone Edge
Endeavor Salac Berry Sandaconda
You switch into Emboar, you click endeavor: if they stay in they take a million from endeavor and then Bisharp goes hard, if they switch something is taking 70% damages and will drop if they have to take a following earthquake/stone edge. Might have to go for substitute since Flare Blitz isn’t guaranteed to proc Salac, unless you remove some defense IVs. 112 def gives you the bulk to live flame charge + blitz after rocks so prob do that, switch in and click sub. This would be the set:
Sandaconda @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 184 Atk / 112 Def / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endeavor
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Stone Edge
Oh yeah also this is my current tierlist feel free to roast it:
Surely for these teams Sandaconda should be Rest instead of Rock Slide with Shed Skin? I dont really see the utility Sand Spit brings, especially without Dug-A and Houndstone not being Sand RushHere are a couple teams with this core as a base:
(Click the sprites to get the paste)
Magmortar route to punish Amoonguss trying to Spore (as it is immune to sleep thanks to Vital Spirit). The synergy with Sylveon is very cool as Magmortar (good wish recipient) punishes its best answer, and generally the team enjoys wish+heal bell support a lot. Houndstone is mostly here to block spin honestly since sandaconda is not a great rocker into spin Blastoise.
Team works OK, but endgames can be a bit tricky as scarf bisharp is your only reliable option to clean a game, the other mons being more early to mid game minded. The Shell Smash Blastoise matchup is not great but definitively playable (even more playable if you make Sylveon Roar or Toxic). Early games have to be played carefully vs breakers sometimes, as the team relies sometimes a bit too much on your defensive pieces to be healthy to take on certain Pokemon, although Scarf Bisharp helps with that. When you don’t have all the infos about the opposing team it can sometimes lead to have to make hard decisions very early in the game because you can't always tell what you need to preserve i think, which is not the most ideal but also a consequence of the metagame being young and not very well defined imo.
"Noiven" lol
A houndstone again! I’m ngl I should try to explore other ways to solve the spin blastoise issue sandaconda is having, although the sleep absorption thing is rly nice to have too.
Didn't get to test the team much yet, but in a nutshell I wanted to try Noivern with the bish+emboar+sanda core. Noivern is a Pokemon that often really annoyed me on the ladder as when you don’t have a sylveon it can be super annoying to deal with late in the game: it doesn’t have a lot of long term checks and has good longevity with roost and boots. Amoonguss is a natural last slot addition as it checks Sylveon and checks Blastoise. I’m stomping tantrum over spore here because sleep is kinda overrated (although still stupid) and I felt like giving free turns to steels (mostly bisharp) post sleep clause can be kinda tough but otherwise you can totally run spore on it over it, it’s just me being a maniac.
Hello 35 Pokes enjoyers! I have come to this thread to share a very fun team that can win games if you play it right.
(click for paste)
This is a sand team, and whilst it is a bit niche (and stupid), like I said before it can win games, and I'm sure you will have fun playing it! Now, let me go into the sets
@ Eject Button
Ability: Sand Spit
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
When I first looked at this meta, I knew this would be a set I would want to build around. Sand Spit + Eject Pack is amazing. Usually, in the face of Pokemon that you can't handle, you can swap into this Pokemon, eat the hit, and get a free switch into your offensive mons, while also setting the sand up. The rest of the set is pretty standard.
@ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sandstorm
- U-turn
- Bug Buzz
- Encore
Accelgor is the one of the fastest Pokemon that can learn Sandstorm in this metagame. It's job is simple. Be a lead that can immediately set up Sand. It also has Encore to punish greedy Pokemon trying to setup, and U-Turn for momentum.
@ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Substitute
- Return
This mon Is what I often call the "star of the show." Stoutland can very easily run away with games with patience and positioning. I experimented with Choice Band sets first, but I settled for Life Orb because it allows me to use Substitute. Substitute is great versus Bisharp, as it allows you to prevent Sucker Punch the first turn, and safely attack the second. Return + Crunch + Superpower is perfect coverage for this meta, and it can be a very good late game cleaner.
@ Muscle Band
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Body Press
Okay, this set looks weird at first, but you have to hear me out. I first used Choice Band, but the inability to switch moves really hurt the team. Then, I tried Life Orb, but that was bad because then it would hurt it more than it can benefit it. So, I settled for Muscle Band, although other items work too. Poltergeist hits very hard, with very few switching. Shadow Sneak is good for picking off targets. Play Rough is good versus Guzzlord, and Body Press is amazing versus Bisharp and weakened Snorlax.
@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
Initially, I had Alolan Dugtrio over this Pokemon, but I would run into an issue: Bisharp. To relieve this issue, I would use Emboar. The reason is Scarf is to give me a chance when Sand isn't present and I'm trying to preserve my Sandaconda. Flare Blitz hits stupid hard, as well as Close Combat. Knock Off is a good neutral move to click, and Sucker Punch is sometimes good to have, although this last move can be swapped out for something else.
@ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
Standard set, I need Defog.
The main problem with this team is that it struggles versus. It can be very hard to break through this Pokemon without sacking something (like here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-2216504246-2ywpsgperyvgxp1p1pyjgtq8g6arbxupw). Additionally, Noivern invites in, and that on its own is also hard to switch into.
This team isn't that good, but it can win, and is most definitely fun for anyone that wants to mess around and have some mindless fun
(click for paste)This is a sand team, and whilst it is a bit niche (and stupid), like I said before it can win games, and I'm sure you will have fun playing it! Now, let me go into the sets
@ Eject Button Ability: Sand Spit
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
When I first looked at this meta, I knew this would be a set I would want to build around. Sand Spit + Eject Pack is amazing. Usually, in the face of Pokemon that you can't handle, you can swap into this Pokemon, eat the hit, and get a free switch into your offensive mons, while also setting the sand up. The rest of the set is pretty standard.
@ Smooth Rock Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sandstorm
- U-turn
- Bug Buzz
- Encore
Accelgor is the one of the fastest Pokemon that can learn Sandstorm in this metagame. It's job is simple. Be a lead that can immediately set up Sand. It also has Encore to punish greedy Pokemon trying to setup, and U-Turn for momentum.
@ Life Orb Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Substitute
- Return
This mon Is what I often call the "star of the show." Stoutland can very easily run away with games with patience and positioning. I experimented with Choice Band sets first, but I settled for Life Orb because it allows me to use Substitute. Substitute is great versus Bisharp, as it allows you to prevent Sucker Punch the first turn, and safely attack the second. Return + Crunch + Superpower is perfect coverage for this meta, and it can be a very good late game cleaner.
@ Muscle Band Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Body Press
Okay, this set looks weird at first, but you have to hear me out. I first used Choice Band, but the inability to switch moves really hurt the team. Then, I tried Life Orb, but that was bad because then it would hurt it more than it can benefit it. So, I settled for Muscle Band, although other items work too. Poltergeist hits very hard, with very few switching. Shadow Sneak is good for picking off targets. Play Rough is good versus Guzzlord, and Body Press is amazing versus Bisharp and weakened Snorlax.
@ Choice Scarf Ability: Reckless
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
Initially, I had Alolan Dugtrio over this Pokemon, but I would run into an issue: Bisharp. To relieve this issue, I would use Emboar. The reason is Scarf is to give me a chance when Sand isn't present and I'm trying to preserve my Sandaconda. Flare Blitz hits stupid hard, as well as Close Combat. Knock Off is a good neutral move to click, and Sucker Punch is sometimes good to have, although this last move can be swapped out for something else.
@ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
Standard set, I need Defog.
The main problem with this team is that it struggles versus
. It can be very hard to break through this Pokemon without sacking something (like here:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-2216504246-2ywpsgperyvgxp1p1pyjgtq8g6arbxupw). Additionally, Noivern invites
in, and that on its own is also hard to switch into.This team isn't that good, but it can win, and is most definitely fun for anyone that wants to mess around and have some mindless fun
Last edited:
Having recently discovered, and soon falling in love with this tier, I think this tierlist is pretty well done and accurate, and the tier is really fun and balanced. After playing a decent amount of matches recently, I personally would change:
Hello, I wanted to make a post about what I think might be the three best Pokemon in the tier, and why I think they also pair very well together to form possibly the best core in the tier:
Since the metagame is new and a ton of stuff is being figured out, the ambition I had in the teambuilder was trying to find something that would give me good way out against whatever mysterious technologies people might use.
One challenge you’ll have to face in the builder is having some sort of plan for the myriad of very strong wallbreakers the tier has to offer: SD Bisharp, Gengar, Zoroark-Hisui, Porygon-Z, Clawitzer, Fraudckrow, etc… Scarf Bisharp not only handles all of these (w/ low kick for opposing bisharps) with at most minimal chip but also still is pretty much still a wallbreaker lol, knock off and iron head are super clickable, and as this wasn’t enough you get the option to remove something from the game/chip it with a fast and strong pursuit.
Maybe that’s a hot take but I think Scarf is the best item by far. SD is cool and all but outside of HO why even bother spending a turn setting up and play sucker punch mindgames (and lose to scarf low kick bisharp!) when u could just run the set that helps checking half the metagame AND still gets to force progress at the same time with its spammable stabs + pursuit? Sign me in.
Bisharp’s best switch in is Emboar. SD Bisharp (or even Bisharp in general) can be really scary and I think the best way you can take account of it is to spam Emboar + low kick scarf Bisharp. Emboar alone can come off short as it can be worn down and you can get owned by a random psycho cut (although you can invest Emboar to survive +2 psycho cut), and having to lock into low kick with your scarf Bisharp is something you don’t want to do in every situation, so you can just run both to be flexible enough against it.
Fortunately Emboar is also a good Pokemon: very hard to switch into + its super deep movepool makes me think there is a lot you can explore with this Pokemon. Bulk Up, Flame Charge, Head Smash (hits harder than close combat with reckless! Although the recoil and poor accuracy can let it down), Knock Off, Sucker Punch and even has the SpA to go mixed (or even special???) if you want. I think in general i prefer using bulky adamant sets to check bisharp and still be good at making progress.
I think Sandaconda is the best rocker (I don’t think the other mons look very good barring suicide leads - and no I’m not a stealth rock bisharp believer, I think that’s probably a waste of a bisharp. I recognize they probably all have a niche but I think Sandaconda’s defensive utility seem, at least in theory, to be the most useful) and one of the best switch ins to Emboar which makes it a great Bisharp partner itself. Stealth Rocks also make Scarf Bisharp a million times more threatening too. Rocky Helmet + Sand Pit chips Emboar for clicking a move which Bisharp definitively appreciates (you can also own Honchkrow clicking Brave Bird which is very funny). Not running Shed Skin makes u more vulnerable to Toxic but with wish + heal bell Sylveon it should be fine (although if they start to run scald more it might become a problem), and u still get to set rocks that can chip their Emboar if they ate a Knock Off from Bisharp, which is likely cuz if Emboar main selling point in the first place is being a Bisharp switch in. The spread outspeeds +1 paralyzed flame charge Emboar and mixed bulk so you aren’t getting owned too hard by mixed Emboar sets.
So in a nutshell the idea of that core is as such:
>Scarf Bisharp keeps a million things in check and helps vs pretty much any archetype thanks to Knock Off
>Sandaconda punishes the n°1 answer to Bisharp in Emboar so you can follow up the value Bisharp generates with even more value. It’s also a great rocker.
>Emboar + low kick scarf Bisharp is very strong SD Bisharp counterplay
Overall, if you couldn’t tell yet: I’m very *very* high on scarf bisharp, to the point I believe it might be the single best set in the entire tier. Yes, it is much less threatening as SD sets, but it helps checking so much that you should run it over SD anyway in my opinion. Ironically, because of how good this set is at keeping opposing SD Bisharp in check, I believe its existence makes me think Bisharp might be not banworthy, on top of Scarf itself not being very hard to take account of. This might be a bold take lol especially since we only are day 5 of the metagame so I would not be surprised to be proven wrong very soon, but at the moment this is the hypothesis I’m standing for, and the more I build and try stuff on the ladder the more convinced of it I become. I think the two main cases u should drop it is if you are using webs or are running some sort of sturdy bisharp revenge killer (like boots honch), which can for example allow you to use scarf porygon-z more easily.
Here are a couple teams with this core as a base:
(Click the sprites to get the paste)
Magmortar route to punish Amoonguss trying to Spore (as it is immune to sleep thanks to Vital Spirit). The synergy with Sylveon is very cool as Magmortar (good wish recipient) punishes its best answer, and generally the team enjoys wish+heal bell support a lot. Houndstone is mostly here to block spin honestly since sandaconda is not a great rocker into spin Blastoise.
Team works OK, but endgames can be a bit tricky as scarf bisharp is your only reliable option to clean a game, the other mons being more early to mid game minded. The Shell Smash Blastoise matchup is not great but definitively playable (even more playable if you make Sylveon Roar or Toxic). Early games have to be played carefully vs breakers sometimes, as the team relies sometimes a bit too much on your defensive pieces to be healthy to take on certain Pokemon, although Scarf Bisharp helps with that. When you don’t have all the infos about the opposing team it can sometimes lead to have to make hard decisions very early in the game because you can't always tell what you need to preserve i think, which is not the most ideal but also a consequence of the metagame being young and not very well defined imo.
I thought lot of issues of the team above could be solved by taking a more offensive approach, sacrifying some defensive sturdiness for more speed and immediate power, which here take the form of Alola-Dugtrio. Giving up Magmortar is fine since Houndstone is a fine sleep absorber vs Amoongus, can sit on that mon for a while and can throw up will-o-wisps vs it as well. I went for Blastoise as the defensive guy, no spin because I think the hazard game is strong enough with multiple boots users and 1 spinblocker (just be proactive vs spikes teams), roar is nice to check opposing blastoises or setup sweepers in general with the basic scald+flipturn+toxic toolkit. Dugtrio Alola is a nice last, as it hits Sylveon harder than Bisharp with its Choice Band and generally has a nice speed tier that can be useful in a ton of situations. As a bonus it has Sand Force which pairs nicely with Sand Pit from your own Sandaconda. Don’t play this like a dedicated sand team though: treat sand force as one of the minor playing options of the team, it can be useful but not in every game.
"Noiven" lol
A houndstone again! I’m ngl I should try to explore other ways to solve the spin blastoise issue sandaconda is having, although the sleep absorption thing is rly nice to have too.
Didn't get to test the team much yet, but in a nutshell I wanted to try Noivern with the bish+emboar+sanda core. Noivern is a Pokemon that often really annoyed me on the ladder as when you don’t have a sylveon it can be super annoying to deal with late in the game: it doesn’t have a lot of long term checks and has good longevity with roost and boots. Amoonguss is a natural last slot addition as it checks Sylveon and checks Blastoise. I’m stomping tantrum over spore here because sleep is kinda overrated (although still stupid) and I felt like giving free turns to steels (mostly bisharp) post sleep clause can be kinda tough but otherwise you can totally run spore on it over it, it’s just me being a maniac.
Side note but one thing i don't like about having Amoonguss as your sole Blastoise answer is that u need to keep it out of ice beam range which is annoying because you want to use this mon for other things too. Also if amoon gets frozen or crit the game is instantly over which is some rng vulnerability i prefer to not have to depend on lol, ~15% odds to lose instantly to a top threat is not ideal.Here is an other idea I had with emboar+sandaconda+bisharp (maybe not scarf anymore) for a much more offensive team I didn’t get to try yet. Since the bisharp may not be scarf and the conda isn’t stealth rocks anymore, lot of my reasoning above doesn’t rly apply well but I thought it might still work. I’m kinda bad at building super aggressive teams like this lol so I’m kinda throwing this here to see if someone else could make it work:
Endeavor Salac Berry Sandaconda
You switch into Emboar, you click endeavor: if they stay in they take a million from endeavor and then Bisharp goes hard, if they switch something is taking 70% damages and will drop if they have to take a following earthquake/stone edge. Might have to go for substitute since Flare Blitz isn’t guaranteed to proc Salac, unless you remove some defense IVs. 112 def gives you the bulk to live flame charge + blitz after rocks so prob do that, switch in and click sub. This would be the set:
Sandaconda @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 184 Atk / 112 Def / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endeavor
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Stone Edge
Oh yeah also this is my current tierlist feel free to roast it:
View attachment 675180
C -> BA tiny bit of SP.A less than Gengar, and slightly different movepool. However, Illusion can create scary mindgames and surprise attacks, and Zoroark-Hisui can potentially run a Physical set on top of the usual Special/Utility to catch people off-guard. Gengar and Zoroark feel pretty interchangeable, function similarly and fulfill a similar niche, plus Normal/Ghost is a better defensive typing. Still faces most of Gengar's issues, but at least it's not weak to EQ.
UR -> BAt the moment, I feel Snorlax has a lot of options and functions pretty well in the Metagame. Snorlax's good stats allow It to potentially wall, setup on and beat Sylveon, Blastoise, Noivern and Sandaconda with Curse and STAB Return, and can run a decent variety of items such as Leftovers, AV and Chesto Berry just to name a few. Immunity also does a great job protecting him against Toxic, although Amoonguss can still give Snorlax trouble with Clear Smog and Spore against non-Sleep Talk Snorlax.
A -> B+Noivern certainly has it's merits as a defogger and potential sweeper or wallbreaker depending on the set, but I feel it's a bit inconsistent and runs into a lot of trouble, notably against Sylveon and Snorlax. Blastoise can function very well as a spinner, and Noivern also faces competition from Honchkrow as a defogger.
UR -> B, potentially ADudunsparce really feels like he can do whatever he pleases. Coil, CM, Roost, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Yawn, Glare/SG Body Slam, Serene Grace boosted Headbutt, Body Press, Boomburst, and even Rattled. Can struggle to choose it's 4 moves with all the options and coverage it gets, and notably gets countered by Emboar, but with team support Dudunsparce functions as an amazing win condition and has decent, well rounded stats to back it up and allow it to be built and function in a handful of different ways.
C -> B-Heatproof, CM, Nasty Plot, Strenght Sap, Matcha Gotcha/Giga Drain, Shadow Ball and possibly even Memento are some options Sinistcha can run and let it function decently. Vulnerable to Knock Off and Sucker Punch, but it's got good Physical bulk and can be a potential win condition and physical wall under the right circumstances.
Welcome men, women and no binary pals, I am here to show you a team featuring a really funny pokemon, Hisuian-Zoroark
(click for paste)
@ Colbur Berry
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Poltergeist
- Body Press
- Pain Split
Don´t let its looks deceive you, this is not a dog, this is a goat, one of the best bisharp switch ins and probably the best honchkrow switch in, thanks to its ghost + fighting coverage it is no sitting duck either because it can deal a lot of damage if you understimate it, other than the darks, it also helps make lax completely useless and 1v1 certain boar sets and nulify drain punch recovery from defensive boar
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clear Smog
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play
AV amoongus may seem like an odd choice, you are giving up on spore after all, but the utility you lose from spore is gained in other fields. Being able to run both sludge bomb and clear smog means you can nulify set-up sweepers and have a lot of pressure vs teams lacking a steel while foul play lets it beat the likes of sub gengar, thanks to the AV you also take a lot less damage from +2 ice beam blastoise making putting it in range a lot harde
@ White Herb
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
In 35 Pokes civilization no one chooses to use flash cannon, it is not worth risking your sweep vs amoongus just to have a slightly better sylveon MU... But i just did anyways (ice beam probably better tho if you want)
@ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
Hazard removal, this is the best non blastoise hazard removal option in the tier and risking giving bisharp a free sd is not good but it lets you kinda switch into non head smash emboar wich this team needs
@ Colbur Berry
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Knock Off
- Poltergeist
The star of the team, 90% of games you want to copy your own bisharp wich forces unideal scenarios where if you risk it and go for a dark move, you may give bisharp free set-up but if you click a fighting move you are giving horo free set-up, its moveset only solidifies this role even further, with sword dance, low kick and knock off it can replicate a bisharp´s movepool extremely well and if an enemy is forced out the turn horoark switches in it can even kill one pokemon without revealing its true identitiy, thanks to its fighting and ghost inmunities it can also work as a switch in to several scary mons like gengar, hound and opposing horoark, the colbur berry also lets it kill the likes of bisharp or a chipped honch once your facade is out
@ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch
Best mon in the tier, it can switch in very easily after wich it also exerts a lot of pressure, it has a very easy time eventually overwhelming its checks wich have a lack of reliable recovery and one wrong horoark prediction can lose you the game, this pokemon is insane and the reason why this horoark set works is because of how much bisharp forces out, this mon is just insane
As you may have deduced by now this team struggles a bit into and can have trouble against opposing /
if houndstone gets chipped enough, but no team is perfect and this team has worked well enough for me
replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex35pokes-2215330729
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex35pokes-2214900105
Really funny team to use
(click for paste) @ Colbur BerryAbility: Fluffy
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Poltergeist
- Body Press
- Pain Split
Don´t let its looks deceive you, this is not a dog, this is a goat, one of the best bisharp switch ins and probably the best honchkrow switch in, thanks to its ghost + fighting coverage it is no sitting duck either because it can deal a lot of damage if you understimate it, other than the darks, it also helps make lax completely useless and 1v1 certain boar sets and nulify drain punch recovery from defensive boar
@ Assault VestAbility: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clear Smog
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play
AV amoongus may seem like an odd choice, you are giving up on spore after all, but the utility you lose from spore is gained in other fields. Being able to run both sludge bomb and clear smog means you can nulify set-up sweepers and have a lot of pressure vs teams lacking a steel while foul play lets it beat the likes of sub gengar, thanks to the AV you also take a lot less damage from +2 ice beam blastoise making putting it in range a lot harde
@ White HerbAbility: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
In 35 Pokes civilization no one chooses to use flash cannon, it is not worth risking your sweep vs amoongus just to have a slightly better sylveon MU... But i just did anyways (ice beam probably better tho if you want)
@ Heavy-Duty BootsAbility: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
Hazard removal, this is the best non blastoise hazard removal option in the tier and risking giving bisharp a free sd is not good but it lets you kinda switch into non head smash emboar wich this team needs
@ Colbur BerryAbility: Illusion
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Knock Off
- Poltergeist
The star of the team, 90% of games you want to copy your own bisharp wich forces unideal scenarios where if you risk it and go for a dark move, you may give bisharp free set-up but if you click a fighting move you are giving horo free set-up, its moveset only solidifies this role even further, with sword dance, low kick and knock off it can replicate a bisharp´s movepool extremely well and if an enemy is forced out the turn horoark switches in it can even kill one pokemon without revealing its true identitiy, thanks to its fighting and ghost inmunities it can also work as a switch in to several scary mons like gengar, hound and opposing horoark, the colbur berry also lets it kill the likes of bisharp or a chipped honch once your facade is out
@ EvioliteAbility: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch
Best mon in the tier, it can switch in very easily after wich it also exerts a lot of pressure, it has a very easy time eventually overwhelming its checks wich have a lack of reliable recovery and one wrong horoark prediction can lose you the game, this pokemon is insane and the reason why this horoark set works is because of how much bisharp forces out, this mon is just insane
As you may have deduced by now this team struggles a bit into
and can have trouble against opposing /if houndstone gets chipped enough, but no team is perfect and this team has worked well enough for me
replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex35pokes-2215330729
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex35pokes-2214900105
Really funny team to use
Last edited:
Sand pit is just there for the chip, lot of the defensive utility it gets is from chipping emboar (and sometimes honchkrow) a ton, and i geneally value the sand chip more than the utility of Shed Skin since toxic emboar (which is probably the main thing that is going to target it with toxic) isn't super common and even if u switch into that you still get your rocks up for 2 turns of toxic damages so it's fine. Shed Skin is definitively a fine ability but you can't drop Rock Slide (or drop rock coverage) on these teams because hitting Noivern is really important. Could make an argument to drop glare but these teams don't need Sandaconda to live super long - which is part of why there is a spinblocker to preserve its hazards.
I didn't get the opportunity to play again since i posted but i heard pple have been using Scald Emboar more which means maybe Shed Skin could be better.
I can see it honestly, i should actually try the mon at some point but to be honest i'm generally quite low on our ghosts (barring houndstone) in general because of Bisharp (especially Scarf). Gengar and Zoroark-Hisui might be roughly equal to each other - or maybe even Zoroark-H will turn out to be the best of the two? - but i think there is also an argument for Gengar and Zoroark-Hisui to be C, but right now i personally don't have any strong opinions about them at the moment. I recognize they can be incredibly threatening though, and Scarf Bisharp can certainly not reliably prevent them for taking one kill as it doesn't want to directly switch into them, but that doesn't necessarily prevent a Pokemon to be C rank in my eyes as we have other breakers that are still very good at breaking while not being as vulnerable to Bisharp
A tiny bit of SP.A less than Gengar, and slightly different movepool. However, Illusion can create scary mindgames and surprise attacks, and Zoroark-Hisui can potentially run a Physical set on top of the usual Special/Utility to catch people off-guard. Gengar and Zoroark feel pretty interchangeable, function similarly and fulfill a similar niche, plus Normal/Ghost is a better defensive typing. Still faces most of Gengar's issues, but at least it's not weak to EQ.
I completely agree with you that it has great traits at least on paper, but at the same time it actually doesn't check that much aside from the few you cited (and even then, lax can get in troubles if it switches directly into specs Sylveon (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 175-207 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) or Sandaconda, can struggle a bit vs shell smash Blastoise, and flip turn Blastoise and U-Turn Noivern can take advantage of it). It can be a lot more vulnerable to hazards that it could seem, and rest is certainly exploitable.
At the moment, I feel Snorlax has a lot of options and functions pretty well in the Metagame. Snorlax's good stats allow It to potentially wall, setup on and beat Sylveon, Blastoise, Noivern and Sandaconda with Curse and STAB Return, and can run a decent variety of items such as Leftovers, AV and Chesto Berry just to name a few. Immunity also does a great job protecting him against Toxic, although Amoonguss can still give Snorlax trouble with Clear Smog and Spore against non-Sleep Talk Snorlax.
That being said i'm still very much undecided on how good this mon could be. I've talked with people in the 35 Pokes discord and the general opinion on it seem to be extremely low, for reasons i found very reasonable, however i believe this guy should definitively be experimented with more nonetheless. I think curse might have potential, rest sets in general absorbing amoonguss is interesting, and checking Noivern is a trait i find very under appreciated at the moment as aside from Sylveon this mon doesn't has a lot of sturdy answers (I'll delve more on Noivern later in this post).
I think there are a ton of things Snorlax could try to do, but now the deal is trying to figure out what would make it worth running. There are 4 possible routes you can take with Snorlax, depending on if you are using Rest and/or Curse or not, and i believe looking at each of these routes separately would make figuring its place in the metagame easier. Below you can find some theorycrafting i had about Snorlax:
(Side note but keep in mind that HP investment on Snorlax - or more generally mons with very high hp stat compared to their defenses - is very rarely worth. Won't delve into the maths, but in a nutshell HP invest on lax doesn't affect its bulk much at all so you should generally invest in its defenses instead if you want it to be bulkier. Optimal mixed bulk spreads probably have some HP investment but those are very annoying to figure out).
Snorlax @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry? / Chople Berry?
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Curse
>I believe you need a bunch of spdef as our special wallbreakers hit very hard, and if you don't invest in spdef you just fold to them. Rest of EVs probably go either in atk or in physdef.
>I assume the safest coverage options is the combination of normal move (double-edge probably, hits clear smog amoonguss as hard as you can) + earthquake, but aside from that i think you could run kinda anything? After a Curse Snorlax could be tricky to take out, and you won't need coverage for anything you can beat just by clicking curse more, so you can adapt your coverage accordingly. I think EQ might be more important than the normal stab tbh, as hitting Bisharp/Emboar is a big deal. Honestly maybe Toxic + EQ could cook? I think you "hit" everything with that.
>Someone on discord brought up clear amulet for Sinistcha so if pple start using that u can do that. You could also hit it with Toxic or pp stall it with Leppa Berry (Strength Sap and Curse both have 16 PPs) which also has the benefit of giving you more Rest PPs in other matchups, although CM Sinistcha might overpower you in the meantime.
>This set should be seen more as a threat than a defensive mon: if you keep switching it into big attacks it will be forced into exploitable rest loops and will achieve nothing, so don't rely on it for that job. The most dangerous curselax is the one that has a free opportunity to click Curse at near full hp against a team that is too weakened/unprepared to handle it, and i think this is what should be aimed for when using this set.
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Curse
>I believe you need a bunch of spdef as our special wallbreakers hit very hard, and if you don't invest in spdef you just fold to them. Rest of EVs probably go either in atk or in physdef.
>I assume the safest coverage options is the combination of normal move (double-edge probably, hits clear smog amoonguss as hard as you can) + earthquake, but aside from that i think you could run kinda anything? After a Curse Snorlax could be tricky to take out, and you won't need coverage for anything you can beat just by clicking curse more, so you can adapt your coverage accordingly. I think EQ might be more important than the normal stab tbh, as hitting Bisharp/Emboar is a big deal. Honestly maybe Toxic + EQ could cook? I think you "hit" everything with that.
>Someone on discord brought up clear amulet for Sinistcha so if pple start using that u can do that. You could also hit it with Toxic or pp stall it with Leppa Berry (Strength Sap and Curse both have 16 PPs) which also has the benefit of giving you more Rest PPs in other matchups, although CM Sinistcha might overpower you in the meantime.
>This set should be seen more as a threat than a defensive mon: if you keep switching it into big attacks it will be forced into exploitable rest loops and will achieve nothing, so don't rely on it for that job. The most dangerous curselax is the one that has a free opportunity to click Curse at near full hp against a team that is too weakened/unprepared to handle it, and i think this is what should be aimed for when using this set.
I don't have much thoughts about this one ngl, i am not thrilled by it at all lol. Probably spdef with rest + whatever 3 moves, possibly including sleep talk, maybe including sleep talk. Could play a lot like sets without Curse if you go Chesto berry. I believe you'll probably need at least close to maximum investment in atk as unboosted lax can be surprisingly weak even with super effective moves.
I assume the idea here would just be switching into status or act as a mid special sponge, i'd run boots in that case most likely.
I assume the idea here would just be switching into status or act as a mid special sponge, i'd run boots in that case most likely.
Snorlax @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Assault Vest? / Choice Band?
Ability: Immunity / Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD ? (idk)
Adamant / Careful Nature
- Return / Normal stab (might be droppable if you try to maximise your coverage?)
- Earthquake
- Whatever coverage you want to hit stuff / Self Destruct? / Facade? / Pursuit? / idk this mon has infinite movepool just look at the builder %) / Ice Punch (important to act as a Noivern check)
>The idea i am proposing here is to use it as a special sponge on offensive teams, a bit like it does in ADV. However i think Sylveon might be very tough competition for it in that role
> Leftovers + Protect is probably possible? It's not a very exploitable move since you are rarely forced into it (who is going to expect protect lax anyway?) and can help scouting double switches, choice locks, etc
> Custap Berry + Gluttony (might even be usable without Gluttony tbh) sounds fire to me, chople is prob cool too to handle focus blasting ghosts + making Emboar less threatening to you alongside Thick Fat.
Ability: Immunity / Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD ? (idk)
Adamant / Careful Nature
- Return / Normal stab (might be droppable if you try to maximise your coverage?)
- Earthquake
- Whatever coverage you want to hit stuff / Self Destruct? / Facade? / Pursuit? / idk this mon has infinite movepool just look at the builder %) / Ice Punch (important to act as a Noivern check)
>The idea i am proposing here is to use it as a special sponge on offensive teams, a bit like it does in ADV. However i think Sylveon might be very tough competition for it in that role
> Leftovers + Protect is probably possible? It's not a very exploitable move since you are rarely forced into it (who is going to expect protect lax anyway?) and can help scouting double switches, choice locks, etc
> Custap Berry + Gluttony (might even be usable without Gluttony tbh) sounds fire to me, chople is prob cool too to handle focus blasting ghosts + making Emboar less threatening to you alongside Thick Fat.
Ok so honestly i'm very intrigued this one because i think it might be cooking hard. If you ever played against SD Iron Hands, offensive Primal Kyogre, offensive CM Suicune in ADV OU or Archaludon under rain, then basically this is the idea i'm proposing to replicate with that route. Those are very bulky Pokemon that do not use their bulk to switch into hits (although they definitively can depending on the situation) but to pose a threat and force trades. Switching into them can already be tricky enough, and they often prove to be impossible to take down in one hit so they sometimes take 2 or even 3 kills before finally going down. They are very different from the classic bulky setup sweepers (like cm reuniclus, cm clefable, cm rest suicune, etc) as they typically lack reliable recovery and usually aim to wallbreak in the early game instead of trying to win much later.
I believe Snorlax has all the potential in the world to try to do this: it has great special bulk, can take physical hits surprisingly well after a curse (To illustrate: 252+ Atk Emboar Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 392-464 (85 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO - and this is with 0 bulk investment!!!), has only 1 weakness and has a ton of coverage. That being said it faces competition with Dudunsparce in that role, as even though it is bulkier on the special side, dudunsparce is faster, has coil which is strictly better than curse (it could run CM too), and serene grace (potentially alongside glare) might be super super nasty.
Anyway here is the set i'm proposing:
Snorlax @ Chople Berry / Lum Berry / Leftovers / Custap Berry / Kee Berry??? / Maranga Berry???
Ability: Idk lol (Gluttonny could be ran alongside Custap)
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Return / Double-Edge?
- Idk lol coverage / protect alongside lefties? / Counter? ("coverage" against physical attackers lol)
The spread is max atk + random evs in bulk cuz i'm too lazy to figure out a benchmark. This lax would fit on offensive teams. It most likely shouldn't directly try to switch into anything unless it's super free, i believe the most dangerous when it gets to click curse for free: its offensive potential depends on its bulk.
I believe Snorlax has all the potential in the world to try to do this: it has great special bulk, can take physical hits surprisingly well after a curse (To illustrate: 252+ Atk Emboar Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 392-464 (85 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO - and this is with 0 bulk investment!!!), has only 1 weakness and has a ton of coverage. That being said it faces competition with Dudunsparce in that role, as even though it is bulkier on the special side, dudunsparce is faster, has coil which is strictly better than curse (it could run CM too), and serene grace (potentially alongside glare) might be super super nasty.
Anyway here is the set i'm proposing:
Snorlax @ Chople Berry / Lum Berry / Leftovers / Custap Berry / Kee Berry??? / Maranga Berry???
Ability: Idk lol (Gluttonny could be ran alongside Custap)
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Return / Double-Edge?
- Idk lol coverage / protect alongside lefties? / Counter? ("coverage" against physical attackers lol)
The spread is max atk + random evs in bulk cuz i'm too lazy to figure out a benchmark. This lax would fit on offensive teams. It most likely shouldn't directly try to switch into anything unless it's super free, i believe the most dangerous when it gets to click curse for free: its offensive potential depends on its bulk.
Honestly i'm super inclined agree, and i'd add to that that it also suffers from very annoying power issues, like this is one of the saddest calc ever made in the history of calcs:
Noivern certainly has it's merits as a defogger and potential sweeper or wallbreaker depending on the set, but I feel it's a bit inconsistent and runs into a lot of trouble, notably against Sylveon and Snorlax. Blastoise can function very well as a spinner, and Noivern also faces competition from Honchkrow as a defogger.
252 SpA Noivern Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Amoonguss: 350-414 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and this is physdef amoonguss <@_@> with a 70% accurate move... Running specs probably does fix the power issue - especially since Hurricane is a super spammable stab - but both of its stabs being inaccurate really hurts.
That being said part of the reason why i ranked it in A is because aside from Sylveon and Snorlax (which do not appreciate specs hurricanes still) it doesn't have much consistent defensive answers at all, and that on the fastest Pokemon in the metagame (barring Ninjask and Accelgor, which are not super relevant anyway imo) makes it a Pokemon that stands out a lot for me. Even if you outspeed it, it is quite bulky and revenge killing it is not a very easy task: even after rocks, Scarf Honchkrow and Scarf Bisharp have to get a roll to kill with Brave Bird or Knock Off, which is made even worse by the fact that Noivern doesn't have to run max speed to outspeed pretty much everything, so it can easily run more bulk. An other reason is because how merciless it can be against unprepared teams, however that still holds true for a lot of mons ranked in B.
Sylveon and Snorlax are issues for it but Noivern could also turn them into an opportunity for breakers to take advantage of them through U-Turn so i think there is potential here for offensive cores with a very good matchup spread. For example i think some steel spam with Noivern + band Perrserker + Scarf Bisharp could be interesting, as Sylveon is an opportunity for Perrserker to click buttons and potentially weaken steel resists which is something Scarf Bisharp appreciates.
In any cases i agree there is a strong case for it to be B rank, although i'm personally not rly sure where it should go as it still feels really cracked to me sometimes
Dudunsparce really feels like he can do whatever he pleases. Coil, CM, Roost, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Yawn, Glare/SG Body Slam, Serene Grace boosted Headbutt, Body Press, Boomburst, and even Rattled. Can struggle to choose it's 4 moves with all the options and coverage it gets, and notably gets countered by Emboar, but with team support Dudunsparce functions as an amazing win condition and has decent, well rounded stats to back it up and allow it to be built and function in a handful of different ways.
I didn't see it yet much at all so idk what to think about it. I think as set chople berry coil with headbutt + earthquake might be incredibly nasty though, chople prevents emboar from being an answer and honestly i'm not sure what else could stop it. No idea on what the ideal spread would be. In general think it has the potential to run very scary "trade machine" sets like the one in the "Without Rest, With Curse" paragraph
I keep flip flopping about Sinistcha because running that in the Bisharp metagame is toughhh, and it's not even its only problem as there is a ton of mons that are annoying to it to various extent while it's not a great answer to much itself besides Sandaconda and Blastoise on a good day. It does compress spinblocker + water resist in one slot which is very cool but i couldn't manage to make a team i liked with this mon. Maybe Iron Defense could be cool? Or/and a weakness berry? Weakness policy????? double dance weakness policy sounds kinda nuts actually lmao, although u might just die to toxic or amoonguss. I tried curse once to force chip on bisharp and deny setup opportunities but idk if that's like actually worth running lol
Heatproof, CM, Nasty Plot, Strenght Sap, Matcha Gotcha/Giga Drain, Shadow Ball and possibly even Memento are some options Sinistcha can run and let it function decently. Vulnerable to Knock Off and Sucker Punch, but it's got good Physical bulk and can be a potential win condition and physical wall under the right circumstances.
Lol hydro pump literally does more damage
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
In 35 Pokes civilization no one chooses to use flash cannon, it is not worth risking your sweep vs amoongus just to have a slightly better sylveon MU... But i just did anyways (ice beam probably better tho if you want)
